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Isa Soares Tonight
Ukraine Deals A Stunning Blow To Russia As It Strikes Targets Deep Inside Russian Territory; Greta Thunberg Joins Aid Ship Sailing To Gaza; Poland's Right-Wing Trump Supporter Wins Polish Election; Dozens Killed Nead Aid Hub In Gaza; Greta Thunberg On An Aid Ship Sailing To Gaza; Erin Patterson Takes The Stand. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired June 02, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
MAX FOSTER, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Hello everyone, I'm Max Foster in for Isa Soares. Tonight, Ukraine deals a stunning blow to Russia as it strikes
targets deep inside Russian territory. I speak with a Ukrainian MP. Then desperate for food in Gaza. Activist Greta Thunberg joins an aid flotilla
sailing to Gaza. We'll bring you the reasons.
And later, art historian Sarah Hoover joins Isa's book club for frank and at times pretty funny conversation about motherhood.
(CLEARS THROAT)
FOSTER: Now, we begin with thousands -- well, thousands of miles from the Ukrainian frontlines and a massive surprise attack. They're sending a clear
message to the Kremlin, this war isn't over yet. On Sunday, Kyiv launched a series of unprecedented strikes using smuggled drones on airfields deep
inside Russia, including one almost halfway across Siberia.
One source tells CNN, Operation Spiderweb took out nearly a third of Moscow's strategic bombers and Ukraine's security service says the attack
inflicted more than $7 billion worth of damage. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is now using this moment to ramp up pressure on Moscow
to move closer to diplomacy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE (through translator): We don't want to demonstrate our strength. We demonstrate it because the enemy doesn't
want to stop. We demonstrate it in a fair way on military targets, and we don't only demonstrate it to the Russian aggressors, but also to all those
allies that once were strong allies and have now started doubting us. The trust towards Ukrainians and trust towards Ukraine has returned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, Ukraine's aerial assault overshadowing the latest round of peace talks in Turkey, which involved low level delegations from both sides
and ended barely an hour after they began. Paton Walsh has been following all of this. They did decide some things in the talks, so it seems.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: I mean very little indeed. It's not even clear when they're necessarily going to meet again.
There were certainly the Russians trying to, I think, afterwards suggest some progress being made, potentially for prisoner swaps, suggesting a
limited ceasefire.
But it was really the contents of the memorandum they brought. Remember, Ukraine debated whether it really should attend. It handed over its
conditions for peace, its memorandum, and wanted the Russians to do the same, and the Russians only gave that document today. And now we know a bit
more about what was in it.
It's not that hard to understand why some of their demands are, frankly, more Maximalist than they were at the very early days of the war. They want
the Ukrainians to essentially give up parts of the regions that Russia has claimed to, that it still controls. So, essentially surrender yet more
territory.
They even suggest perhaps Ukraine could demobilize its army. And they also want other promises about denazification, demilitarization in Ukraine. It's
a series of non-starters, basically. And that's clearly, I think, where Moscow want this process to be way back away from potential conclusion or
even a ceasefire.
FOSTER: In terms of this attack, I mean, we're learning more about it. I mean, extraordinary images coming through, and the fact that it was so deep
in Russian territory.
WALSH: Yes, I mean, I think it's the death is possibly because of what they did and how they carried it out. But it's remarkable to look at the sheer
extent and expanse of Siberia, and imagine that two potential targets were far out east in that. But this is all about the use of 117 tiny, very cheap
drones, hidden quite ingeniously in mobile wooden homes that were shipped near these air bases, relatively hard to spot or detect.
And then the roofs slipped off, the drones came out and they targeted long- range strategic bombers that had been really causing the average night in Ukraine to be absolute hell at the moment. The air raid sirens, because of
the ability for these bombers to deliver such potent missiles. But here are some of the extraordinary pictures that have emerged.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH (voice-over): A bird's eye view of humiliation. Ukrainian drones halfway across Russian Siberia, seconds from hitting the Kremlin's most
prized bombers. But the data was bad for Moscow. The 117 drones hitting 41 long-range bombers across Russia, a Ukrainian security source said.
A torn-up skyline here in Belaya, exactly what Moscow dreaded and Ukraine needed a boost to its flagging morale. Damaging Russia's war machine for
sure. But maybe also its calculus in peace talks.
[14:05:00]
ZELENSKYY: Our Operation Spiderweb yesterday proved that Russia must feel what its losses mean. That is what will push it toward diplomacy.
WALSH: Ukraine hit Irkutsk 4,500 kilometers away from Ukraine where Google Earth still shows similar propeller driven aircraft in the open. But they
also struck a Olenya right on the Arctic circle, similar planes also on Google. Another example of something that just was not meant to happen in
Russia's brutal war of choice. The how was as extraordinary. Ukraine's security service head, Vasyl Malyuk commenting here.
VASYL MALYUK, HEAD, SECURITY SERVICE OF UKRAINE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
WALSH: And releasing these images of the wooden mobile homes they used, the roof cavities off to hide the drones. Before their release, once Ukraine
said all their operatives were out of Russia. The planes hit mainly the Tupolev 95 and Tupolev 22, a Ukrainian source said, aging, easy to damage,
hard to replace.
They were partly behind the nightly terrors that beset Ukrainian civilians. Whether these strikes make a dent in this daily toll will take weeks to
learn, but it may also damage the Kremlin quicker away from the front lines, its pride hit hard, although state TV put on a fierce display of why
Russia has been pummeling Ukraine so relentlessly.
It may also too, change its thinking perhaps towards peace talks that continued Monday in Istanbul, and of how long Russia can sustain this war
if Ukraine keeps throwing painful surprises its way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH: And Max, this is kind of one of those stunning things we're learning about this war, is that for months, the narrative has been very much on
Russia's side as we've seen American-support-waiver collapse, try and force an uncomfortable peace upon Kyiv. And acts like this incredibly low budget,
high invention, high sophistication have again sort of tipped the scales, may have massively damaged Moscow's ability to wage this war.
But most importantly, I think, may be making the Kremlin wonder if indeed with surprises like this that come along occasionally, they can have an
indefinite appetite for this conflict.
FOSTER: OK, and Nick, thank you so much. My next guest is Oleksandr Merezhko, he's a member of the Ukrainian parliament. He's chair of the
Committee on Foreign Policy. It was an extraordinary attack so deep in Siberia. You just heard Nick's explanation for what happened there. I mean,
what more information do you have on how your team's managed to do that?
OLEKSANDR MEREZHKO, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Well, it was a brilliantly organized military attack, and it means that Ukraine is capable
of winning the war that we managed to shock Russia, to shock Putin that it's not the first Ukrainian victory -- By the way, I would like to remind
the Kursk cooperation, I also would like to remind the situation in the Black Sea, where Russia has lost its dominance.
So, ahead of us new operations like that, and it means that the tide of war is turning in favor of Ukraine. And it's the fourth year of war. But such
surprises will be -- will be seen more and more.
FOSTER: But that would assume that you're now going to keep pushing with similar attacks, because the -- surely the tide has been with Russia for
some time, pushing forward on the frontline. Isn't this an isolated event?
MEREZHKO: Yes, of course, because we are talking about not only the war of attrition, but we're also talking about asymmetric conflict. And you can
win such asymmetric war only by being creative, by being ingenious and by holding similar attacks which catch by surprise your enemy.
FOSTER: Can I just ask you about the talks today as well that were held with Russia? They only lasted about an hour. What feedback did you get
about that meeting?
MEREZHKO: Well, I took a look at the so-called memorandum or proposals by Russian delegation, and they look absolutely absurd, ludicrous. It means
that Russia is absolutely not interested in negotiating in earnest. So, I don't have any hopes whatsoever with regard to these talks. But I hope that
such military operations by Ukraine, which we saw just a few days ago, they will give a strong incentive for Putin to finally start talking and
negotiating seriously.
FOSTER: Why would he do that if he feels he's winning the war? He just wants to buy time, doesn't he?
MEREZHKO: Well, it's just a part of his propaganda and maybe wishful thinking on his part because he understands. He realizes that he's not
winning the war.
[14:10:00]
He is trying to pretend that he believes in this, but in reality, we know the situation with Russian economy is deteriorating. It will be
deteriorating even further by the end of the year. And militarily, as we can see, Ukraine is in good condition. And we received this boost of self-
confidence and boost of morale.
FOSTER: There's a two to three-day ceasefire being proposed by Russia. Is Ukraine going to agree to that?
MEREZHKO: We agreed with the initial proposal by President Trump's 30 days ceasefire. But in case of Russia, it's not enough because Russia in the
past has never complied with this, any kind of ceasefires. So, three days is absolutely not enough. Russia should prove -- the burden of proof is now
on Putin and Russia to prove that they are serious about any kind of ceasefire. And Mr. Trump's proposal with regard to 30 days, it's a good
start to prove that Russia is serious.
FOSTER: But they -- you know, by allowing -- agreeing to a three-day ceasefire, then that would give him that opportunity to prove it, wouldn't
he? Or to make your point that he wouldn't stick to it. Why not just agree to it?
MEREZHKO: Russia had already made such suggestions, such offer about three- day ceasefire, but it had violated it. So, we don't trust Russia, and our President has said very distinctly that in such cases when Russia offers
some kind of ceasefire, we will be responding in kind. We will echo, we will respond as the President has put it, in a kind of mirror-image way.
FOSTER: Obviously, there's a must -- so much distrust on both sides of the table here, isn't there? It's not, as you say, there's very little optimism
about where these talks will go. What you need is a mediator, don't you? Is there any sort of agreement about someone that could mediate between the
two sides?
MEREZHKO: The best format for negotiations with Russia can be the format with participation of the United States and participation of the European
Union. Because even from legal point of view, Ukraine now has a status of the candidate to join the European Union. And it makes sense for the
European Union to participate in the process of negotiations. And of course, the United States, as one of our closest allies.
FOSTER: But there's no way Russia is going to agree to the EU mediating. And Donald Trump appears to have pulled back a bit. So, you're left in this
situation where things just aren't going to budge.
MEREZHKO: Well, we are -- should continue to insist on that because to stay one-on-one with Russia, it's dangerous. We already have similar kind of
situations, and it never leads to positive result because Russia is bullying, Russia is doing everything to disrupt negotiations. That's why we
need the presence of those countries, of those international organizations, for example, which can be objective, and which can support the process of
negotiations and the principle of good faith in this process.
FOSTER: Oleksandr Merezhko, really appreciate you joining us today, thank you for sparing your time and your insights. Now, the man accused of using
a makeshift flamethrower in a horrific attack has now been charged with a federal hate crime in the U.S. Mohamed Sabry Soliman is expected to make
his first court appearance in the next hour in Boulder, Colorado.
Police say he used a homemade flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails into a crowd during an event supporting Israeli hostages on Sunday. At least,
eight people were hurt and some of them were burned. Homeland Security officials say Soliman was in the U.S. illegally. Terrified witnesses say
the suspect shout -- shouted "free Palestine" during the incident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From my point of view, all of a sudden, I felt the heat like it was a Molotov cocktail equivalent, a gas bomb in a glass jar thrown
-- I saw it, a big flame as high as a tree, and all I saw was someone on fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, let's get more now on this horrific story. CNN's Whitney Wild is in Boulder, Colorado for you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Law enforcement is providing more detail about Mohamed Sabry Soliman's
immigration status. According to the chief spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, he entered the U.S. in August 2022 on a non-immigrant
visitor visa, a B2 visa, he filed for asylum in September of 2022. He was granted a work authorization in March of 2023, but that authorization
expired in 2025.
[14:15:00]
And according to the Department of Homeland Security as well as the White House, Mohamed Sabry Soliman, 45 years old, was in the country illegally.
There are many more questions to answer about how he was able to, you know, fly under the radar after his work authorization expired. But CNN's John
Mueller is reporting according to his sources that he had actually filed for asylum as early as 2005.
So, again, a long list of questions about what happened between 2005 and what happened today. The other questions that we're hoping to learn more
answers to when he makes his initial appearance today at 130 mountain time here in Boulder, is why he chose this location, why he chose that day, why
he chose that group.
What we know is that federal law enforcement executed a court authorized action at an address associated with this case, as far away as Colorado
Springs. That's almost two hours from here. So, the questions are, you know, did he travel from Colorado Springs to Boulder? We just don't know.
And we're hoping to learn more information about that today.
Law enforcement is making very clear they believe this was a targeted attack. The FBI is calling this a terrorist attack, and law enforcement is
using a couple of key pieces of evidence to make that claim. And the first is that he yelled "free Palestine" during the attack. And then again,
according to John Miller's sources, he told police afterward that he did it to avenge his people.
At this point, he is facing multiple felony charges. He is in custody in Boulder. Again, we will hear much more about this case this afternoon at
130 Mountain Time when he makes his initial appearance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: We'll be following that for you in the next hour, of course. Still to come tonight, Harvard University returns to court where we could learn
much more damage -- learn how much more damage the Trump administration has already done to this pretty prestigious school. Plus, a Polish nationalist
wins the presidency in a major setback for a pro-EU government. Details just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOSTER: We could get a better sense today of how much Donald Trump has hurt Harvard University. That's expected to be included in court documents
Harvard is submitting that outline its case to restore more than $2 billion in federal grants that have been frozen by the Trump administration. It's
worth noting that this case is completely separate from Trump's efforts to bar Harvard from admitting international students.
[The State Department's decision to pause all interviews for student visas as universities all over the country wondering if they'll be able to admit
foreign students this Fall.
[14:20:00]
Our crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz is tracking this. What are you looking out for today, then, Katelyn?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max, the thing I'm looking for in this crucial day for this ongoing set of court battles
in Harvard versus the Trump administration, is what Harvard's lawyers have learned about what happened in the administration as they were deciding
upon what steps to take to make Harvard feel the pain.
We know in this lawsuit, it is from Harvard. There's also another lawsuit part of this that several faculty members of Harvard are also suing. They
all are very upset over the fact the Trump administration ended more than $2.2 billion in federal funding going to Harvard, largely for health care
research. What Harvard is accusing the Trump administration of doing is trying to gain control of their ability to make their own academic and
research, scientific and other decisions within the university.
A First Amendment claim is what Harvard is arguing. But as part of this case, we're at the point now where this filing today, it's the big one.
It's asking the judge to rule in their favor. It will lay out all of the arguments and all of the facts that they have. And Harvard has been able to
get documents from inside the administration.
We know that from the record so far. What exactly they've learned, we don't know yet, but we are watching closely because as that student visa,
international student fight for Harvard, between Harvard and the State Department, Homeland Security Department, as that has played out, judges
have basically stepped in and said, this is falling flat right now.
We're not going to allow the administration to block international students from coming to Harvard. But this grant funding issue, it is in real time,
something that Harvard is feeling. The pulling of those grants, things like money coming from the NIH, the National Science Foundation, Departments of
Agriculture, Defense, Energy, Housing, Urban Development, things that support Harvard and their faculty as they do research into many different
significant diseases, cancer, infectious disease, Parkinson's.
And they also spend a lot of their time at Harvard using federal funding to study the military and battlefield advancements, biotechnology, how to help
wounded service members. So, that's what Harvard is fighting over right now in court. There won't be a resolution until this -- until later in the
Summer.
But this filing, it is going to be one to watch, given how significant it is in all of these cases where Harvard is trying to put together the full
story of what the Trump administration is doing to them. Max?
FOSTER: That's interesting, isn't it? Because, perhaps we shouldn't be focused on the money so much as to where it's going. And these are projects
effectively contracted out to Harvard by government departments on, you know, areas of research. You mentioned health care and military, but these
were projects that have been stopped, which were in the national interest, weren't they? So, that surely will come into an argument from Harvard's
point of view, saying forget about the money, these are projects that you need.
POLANTZ: That's right. And the way that they describe this, the way that Harvard describes it, is they have this federal funding coming in, it
subsidizes their researchers, their research labs, the faculty that work on these projects like researching cancer, infectious disease, battlefield
wounds. But the federal government is paying for it, in Harvard's estimation, because it does benefit the whole country.
It benefits not just the whole country, it also benefits the American military and national interests of the United States. So, that's part of
the articulation of the arguments here that Harvard will be making. But they are also saying quite forcefully, this is a First Amendment thing.
This is the constitution that should be protecting us to teach what we want to teach, to research what we can research, and that these agencies that
have given enough money -- given us money, they shouldn't be able to stop it midstream as we do our research. Max?
FOSTER: OK, Katelyn, let us know how it goes. Thank you so much. Turning to the presidential elections in Poland now, the right-wing populist
candidate, Karol Nawrocki has been declared the winner. He beat out the liberal candidate who was the mayor of Warsaw and the favorite to win.
Nawrocki is a fan of U.S. President Donald Trump, and he visited the White House just weeks before this election. Here's more from our affiliate
"TVN24".
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAL SZNAJDER, ANCHOR, TVN24 (on camera): In a nail-biting finish, Karol Nawrocki has been elected as Poland's new President, securing the victory
by the tiniest of margins against Warsaw's pro-EU Mayor Rafal Trzaskowski. While officially an independent, Karol Nawrocki received strong backing
from the right-wing populist and nationalist Law and Justice Party, which governed Poland for eight years until losing power some 18 months ago.
[14:25:00]
His campaign also notably received an endorsement from Donald Trump. Karol Nawrocki's win marks a significant consolidation of right-wing influence in
Poland. This outcome is poised to create potential clashes with Prime Minister Donald Tusk's centrist government, given the Polish President's
power to veto legislation.
Karol Nawrocki is also known for frequently criticizing the European Union. This outcome could have profound implications not only for Poland's
internal politics, but also for its relationship with the EU and its standing on the international stage. For instance, Karol Nawrocki has
stated he would oppose Ukraine's membership in NATO. In Warsaw, Poland, I'm Michal Sznajder, "TVN24".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Still to come, the U.N. says aid distribution in Gaza has become a death trap after dozens of people desperate for food are killed. Plus,
author Sarah Hoover joins Isa for the latest edition of the book club and shares what no one ever dared to tell her about motherhood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HOOVER, AUTHOR: I think we've all understood narratives of motherhood being hard. We know that it's arduous, and that there's a lot of work
involved. But I had never heard before that there's a version of this experience where you don't love your baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
FOSTER: Doctors without Borders is condemning the killing of dozens of people waiting for food in Gaza, saying it shows a new U.S.-Israeli-backed
aid mechanism as dehumanizing dangerous and severely ineffective. The Palestinian Health Ministry medics and witnesses say, Israel's military
fired on crowds near an aid site on Sunday. Palestinian officials say 31 people were killed all shot in the head or chest.
The IDF says its forces did not shoot civilians near or within the site. But an Israeli military source acknowledges that the IDF shot towards
people before the site opened. Doctors Without Borders join medics treating the mass casualties. The charity says patients told them that people were
shot from all sides, including by drones. One man says his brother was killed while seeking food for his daughters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The U.S. and Israel, what do they tell us? Go and get your food and water and the aid. When the aid arrives,
they hit us. Is this fair? Is this fair? Death? Those who go to get the food from there die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, the U.S.-Israeli-backed foundation running the new aid site says there was no gunfire at all in the area around its facilities. Our
Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, eyewitnesses on the ground, doctors at local hospital, as well as the Palestinian Ministry of
Health say that the Israeli military opened fire on crowds of Palestinians who were headed to an aid distribution site in Southern Gaza. This all
happened in the predawn hours of Sunday morning.
The Israeli military for its part says that the military, quote, "did not fire at civilians while they were near or within this aid distribution
site." But here's what's interesting, an Israeli military source has acknowledged to us that the military did indeed fire what they described as
warning shots towards people about one kilometer away from this aid distribution site.
And that's notable because what we understand from a video at the scene where the gunfire was taking place is that this all took place at the Al-
Alam roundabout, which is about one kilometer away from this aid distribution site. And we know that the aftermath of this attack was quite
grizzly, with eyewitnesses talking about individuals getting wounds -- gunshot wounds to the head and to the chest, doctors describing a very
similar situation as well.
Eyewitnesses also said that many people fell to the ground to try and avoid the bullets. Some of them got up to try and flee and they were shot in
those moments. Doctors Without Borders has said that according to the patients they treated, there was gunfire coming from snipers, from tanks,
as well as gun ships in the Mediterranean Sea.
Now, all of these individuals were at this site for one reason, and that was because they were trying to get to this new aid site run by the U.S.
and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. And this is precisely the kind of danger that humanitarian aid officials have been warning about for
weeks as they've been sounding the alarm about this new aid distribution mechanism, which has just a very small, limited number of aid sites in
Southern and central Gaza, forcing many Palestinians to walk miles sometimes in order to get to these sites and also having to travel through
these dangerous combat zones and through Israeli military positions.
The U.N.'s -- UNRWA's executive director, Philippe Lazzarini, he has said that a distribution in Gaza has now, quote, "become a death trap." He and
other aid officials are calling for Israel to open up the borders to Gaza and allow large quantities of humanitarian aid to flow in through
traditional channels rather than through this Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: We'll have a bit more on that a bit later on with the guests talking about these situations. They seem to be becoming more common. We'll
have more on that a bit later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:35:00]
FOSTER: Now, a flotilla loaded with aid heading towards Gaza right now aiming to break Israel's siege and raise awareness of the worsening
humanitarian crisis. And you can see the ship's progress on this live tracker as it makes its way from Sicily. Climate activist Greta Thunberg is
amongst those on board. She helped load the ship before departure and made an emotional appeal urging the world to stand on what she calls the right
side of history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRETA THUNBERG, ACTIVIST: And we are doing this because no matter what odds we are against, we have to keep trying because the moment we stop trying is
when we lose our humanity. And no matter how dangerous this mission is, it is nowhere and near as dangerous as the silence of the entire world in the
face of a livestream genocide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: For more on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, we're joined by Shaina Low, a communication adviser with the Norwegian Refugee Council. She's live
for us in Amman. Thank you so much for joining us.
I mean, it is a very risky mission, isn't it? And it's breaking what is a siege. Do you support what Greta and the rest of the people on that boat
are doing?
SHAINA LOW, COMMUNICATION ADVISER, NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL: Well, I think it's important that everyone around the world draw attention to the
humanitarian crisis that is taking place in Gaza. This is not a natural disaster. This is a manmade catastrophe and we need to see the world paying
attention. We need to see the world demanding that Israel open the crossings and allow for unfettered access for humanitarians and
humanitarian aid.
So, any efforts that are being made to draw attention to the crisis that we and our colleagues in Gaza and the civilians in Gaza are facing are
important steps to drawing attention to this and pushing world leaders to act.
FOSTER: I wanted to ask you about these recent incidents where Palestinians, Gazans have been going to food delivery points and then shots
of being fired at them or around them. Is that becoming more common or is it just we are hearing about it more
LOW: Well, we've seen several incidents in the last week since the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation started operating these sites and we knew this was
predictable, this was preventable. We knew that this would result in chaos. We might not have known exactly what it would look like, but of course it
would be incredibly dangerous and risky for Palestinians walking thousands of -- walking, excuse me, kilometers and kilometers to reach these points.
Thousands of them at once who are starving and hungry, passing through Israeli military-controlled zones in order to access just some food to feed
their families.
This is why we've been continually pushing and calling for the access for the U.N. and for humanitarian agencies, like the Norwegian Refugee Council,
who were distributing across hundreds of sites throughout Gaza, ensuring that distributions could be orderly, that we could meet people's needs and
ensure that we were meeting their needs by assessing what they were and ensuring that people were not being forcibly, displaced or moved in order
to reach the limited food that is currently available in Gaza.
[14:40:00]
FOSTER: It's been suggested that the group currently looking after aid there involved in these instance hasn't got the experience of working
there, particularly when things get as desperate as they are at the moment. Is that something you agree with?
LOW: Of course. I mean, we as humanitarian agencies and the U.N. and other partners that have been on the ground in Gaza for years, we've -- the
Norwegian refugee Council has been working in Gaza for more than 15 years. Our staff are local, largely local Palestinians who know how to work within
their own communities, who know how to make sure that distributions happen in an orderly fashion and who know how to handle humanitarian crises.
What we're seeing are people who are not experienced, who do not know what they're doing, and who are not guided by humanitarian principles and are in
fact are weaponizing food as a means of furthering Israel's military and political goals in Gaza.
FOSTER: What do you understand the, you know, the gunshots to be about? Is it because, you know, people are so desperate and it does turn into chaos,
as you say, and they have to defend themselves? I mean, why are people getting shot?
LOW: You know, that is something that you'd have to ask the Israeli Defense Forces and hear what their people have to say. But for us, I mean, it's not
surprising that these are quite chaotic distributions when there are thousands of people having to adjust a handful of sites in order to pick up
food. But honestly, we do not have people on the ground at these distribution sites, and so we aren't able to see what exactly is happening.
What we do know is that there's chaos and that Palestinians should not be risking their lives in order to get food to feed their families.
FOSTER: I was speaking to an expert earlier suggesting that the strategy with these drop offs isn't working because they're expecting people to
travel to them to pick up the boxes that we're seeing when really, they should be going to the people that need them. That's a more manageable way
of carrying out this work. Do you agree with that?
LOW: Of course. Not only is it a more manageable way to go and distribute at hundreds of different sites throughout Gaza, but you have to remember
that these -- that people in Gaza, many of them are disabled, many families have elder -- are composed of elderly people, single parent households
where it might be difficult to access these sites. So, there's a whole host of reasons that these sites do not make any sense.
The only thing that we can see that the purpose of these sites is for, is to forcibly displace Palestinians from the areas that they are living in so
that the Israeli military can go and control them.
FOSTER: Shain Low, thank you. Incredibly powerful images coming into us from there. But thank you for telling us the story behind them.
Still to come tonight, Isa sitting down with Sarah Hoover to discuss her new book, taking an honest look at the harsh realities of becoming a first-
time mother.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Joining us on the Book Club today is Sarah Hoover with this fantastic memoir, "The Motherload." Welcome to the
show.
SARAH HOOVER, AUTHOR, "THE MOTHERLOAD": Thank you so much for having me.
SOARES: It's so good to have you here. This is a, you know, very funny, brutally honest and raw look at your first year of motherhood and how you
pretty much hit rock bottom, right, postnatal depression. Why did you think, Sarah, first of all, that it's a story that you wanted or that you
had to tell?
HOOVER: Well, I wrote the book that I wished I had when I was going through it, and I remember feeling so lonely and ashamed of myself in my darkest
moments and combing the internet and reading every book I could find where a woman had this sort of experience after she had a baby and not really
reading anything that resonated with me or made me feel seen.
SOARES: And you show, like I said, incredibly raw and you show real vulnerability very early on even. And there was one moment that your giving
birth to your first child, to Guy, and you describe what it was like seeing him for the first time. Can I ask you to read? This is page 107.
HOOVER: When they put the baby on my body, I looked down at him and my heart sank. I felt nothing. No overwhelming love or happiness. No
excitement. Not even curiosity about him. I didn't count his fingers or his toes. I just looked at him grossed out by the white stuff from my body that
he was covered in.
SOARES: Looking back at those words and that moment and how you felt, more importantly, how do you feel now?
HOOVER: Well, I'm in love with him now, and I've gone on to have another baby, and it's been the most joyful and fulfilling experience that I could
imagine a human could have on this Earth. But when I think back to those days, I feel so sorry for myself and I feel such a relief that I was able
to find a path forward.
SOARES: Do you feel, you know, while you were pregnant and even postpartum, that any -- your friends were honest with you or family members about what,
you know, the -- not just the joys of motherhood, but also the darkest moments in motherhood? Did you ever have someone speaking openly to you,
Sarah, about that?
HOOVER: I did have conversations and experiences with women, and I think we've all understood narratives of motherhood being hard. We know that it's
arduous and that there's a lot of work involved. But I had never heard before that there's a version of this experience where you don't love your
baby. And that's what made me feel so monstrous.
Look, I had an incredibly traumatic birth, traumatic for me. Not medically bizarre, but it left me broken all the same. And I was completely
disassociated because I was terrified and in a panic. And when they handed me that baby, I felt nothing for him. And that to me had never been
described before. And it made me feel like an absolute monster and a failure of a woman.
And no one had ever said to me, look, you're going to find your way to love for this little creature eventually. But right when he comes out, it may
not be an instant bond. It may not be a hormonal firework show right away. And that's OK. And also, no one had ever said to me, I had been sexually
assaulted before in my life, as many women have been. And no one had ever said to me, the experience of giving birth might trigger what you felt when
you were sexually assaulted. And I had no idea that those two things could be connected in the female brain, right? So, I was surprised at those
aspects, though I, of course, knew motherhood was difficult.
SOARES: You kept doubting yourself throughout. And look, I think -- and I speak from my own experience, a mom of two boys. My first -- the first --
the birth of my first child was incredibly traumatic as well.
[14:50:00]
So, your story really resonated with me. And it wasn't so much the first few hours, but the first few months after he was born, I was -- felt like
it wasn't -- this wasn't for me. You know, this wasn't for me. And I felt like a failure, but there was no -- there were no conversations in my group
of friends being had about -- you know, about what exactly what I was feeling. I felt I was the only one going through this experience. So, your
story really resonated with me in so many ways.
But what I did have around me were, you know, mom, husband, a support network that were there. And when I was reading your book, I felt so angry
that you felt so alone at times. Where were your friends? Where were -- where was your mother? Where was your husband when all this was happening?
HOOVER: You know, they were present, though they did not necessarily give me what I needed in those moments. But I also feel, you know, I didn't
advocate for myself the way that I wish I had. And I felt a huge pressure to portray this like perfect mommy, perfect woman, good girl. And I wanted
to make that impression.
SOARES: Why? Why did you feel that pressure?
HOOVER: I think I had internalized a lifetime of Disney movies and pop culture and Instagram. And all of the messages that our culture gives us
about what women are supposed to be, and they're supposed to be selfless and generous and committed, dedicated mothers who find joy and fulfillment
through this incredibly supposedly feminine task of bringing life into this world. And I didn't feel fulfilled by it. I didn't feel curious about it. I
just felt miserable.
SOARES: You know, reading your book. I did -- I was frustrated, like I said to you at times, because I felt that you weren't getting the support from
those around you. But I also highly annoyed and disappointed with your husband, and I'm sure this is something --
HOOVER: Me too.
SOARES: I know you felt it. I -- look, I was with you all along. And the way he behaved, just a whole detached nature during pregnancy and then post
pregnancy. You are very blunt about how you felt and about how he behaved. How does he feel reading those words? I mean, did he see himself in that
way?
HOOVER: I don't think at the time he was able to be critical of himself and hold up a mirror in the way that he is now. He was really clear with me
when I started writing the book that I should write my truth. He actually said, make me look worse if you have to tell a good story. And I was like,
great news, buddy. I don't have to, because you provided --
SOARES: You've done it for yourself.
HOOVER: Exactly. But he was really clear with me that if it were important to me and serve the story for me to be really honest with people, that that
was totally OK with him. And I'm going to be honest with you, if he had said it's not OK with me, I probably wouldn't still be with him. I know
that for me, I need to be with the kind of person who understands how important it is for women to honor their truth, even if it makes them look
bad. I honor my truth even when it makes me look bad. That's something that I'm committed to as a writer.
SOARES: Look, it's a fantastic raw, funny book. I really -- I loved it.
HOOVER: Thank you.
SOARES: And I really recommend that women and men should read it. Really very informative in terms of what we all -- many of us I should say, go
through. Sarah Hoover, really appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed. I'm going to give you our pen. I'm going to ask you to sign it.
HOOVER: Can't wait.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: And coming up on the next Book Club, when the going was good and editors adventurous during the last golden age of magazines by Canadian
journalist Graydon Carter, best known as a former editor of Vanity Fair. He recounts personal stories from the heyday of magazines.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAYDON CARTER, AUTHOR, "WHEN THE GOING WAS GOOD" AND FORMER EDITOR, VANITY FAIR: A lot of people gravitate to newspapers. Magazines, to me, told you
more about the way people lived, newspapers told you about what happened. And also, the stories could be longer and have sort of a narrative pull to
them, and that attracted me as well. And I just -- I love -- actually, I love the feel of magazines. I think they were a brilliant invention and
it's -- and it pains me to see them diminish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Fascinating. Now, the Australian woman on trial for killing three people with the world's most toxic mushrooms took to the stand for the
first time on Monday in her defense. Erin Patterson is accused of feeding her estranged husband's parents, aunt and uncle Beef Wellington that was
laced with death cap mushroom. Days later, all except the uncle died in hospital. Patterson's defense lawyers say this was all a, quote, "terrible
accident." Her testimony will resume on Tuesday.
[14:55:00]
A huge volcanic eruption on the Italian island of Sicily has sent tourists fleeing for their lives. One tour company says it has 40 people on the
active volcano when it erupted. Officials say they are contacting all toll operators to check everyone is accounted for. Many of the roads leading to
the popular tourist destination are now blocked off. 1.5 million people visit each year. And experts say, this is Mount Aetna's largest eruption
since 2014. Look at that.
Tomato, tomato, however you actually say, it has nothing to do with, how you throw it. Of course, the Grand Tomitina, as they call it, a food fight
festival took place in Columbia on Sunday. That's about 170 kilometers north of Bogota. Revelers threw tomatoes, not suitable for consumption.
They were over ripe. The fruits -- yes, fruits, left a messy red pool of juice and puree all over those who were hit. The town's mayor says 70 to 80
percent of the families in town live off tomatoes, and this is a tribute to them. The festival ends today with some 45 tons of tomatoes ready to fly
through the air.
Thanks for watching tonight. Stay with CNN. I'll have more of "What We Know" coming up next.
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