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Isa Soares Tonight
U.N. Says Palestinians in Gaza Resemble "Walking Corpses"; Republican Senators Downplay Donald Trump's Name in Epstein Files; Thailand and Cambodia Exchange Fire in Deadly Border Clashes. Gaza Suffers Man-Made Mass Starvation; Russia's War on Ukraine Continues; Wrestling Legend Hulk Hogan Dead at Age 71; Trump Mandates Removal of 'Woke' A.I. Biases for Federal Contracts. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
RICHARD QUEST, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: And a warm welcome to you all, I am Richard Quest, Isa is off for the evening, you have me instead.
Palestinians in Gaza are beginning to resemble walking corpses. Is warning the U.N., starvation is stalking the territory and negotiators failing to
achieve a breakthrough in ceasefire talks.
Republican senators are downplaying Donald Trump's name in the Epstein files. The latest developments, it seems this nightmare for the President
won't go away. And along the Thai-Cambodian border, violence is flaring. And in doing so, reigniting a long-running dispute. We have a report.
Diplomatic efforts are on extremely fragile ground tonight as Gaza suffers mass starvation.
The World Health Organization head says there's no other way to describe the level of desperation there. The leader of UNRWA says the Palestinians
are walking corpses, neither dead nor alive. And the director of a local hospital is warning that Gaza will face an unprecedented number of deaths
if more aid is not allowed in soon.
Indeed, conditions are so dire that the caretakers are now in need of care themselves after one surgeon collapsed from hunger whilst operating on a
patient. He wrote we live in a nightmare. And so, ceasefire talks. Well, they have a hidden, a major roadblock. The United States has recalled its
negotiating team, the special envoy Steve Witkoff says the latest response from Hamas clearly shows a lack of desire to reach a ceasefire deal.
Let's start with the appalling situation and the terrible times facing people there. CNN's Paula Hancocks reports, and the report is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fadia Habuna Moos(ph) waits in the midday heat at a community kitchen. She's been here
since 6:00 a.m. "I have nine family members I can't find food for", she says. They've only eaten a little lentil soup since yesterday. Tears fill
her eyes as she says they are surviving on water.
Every face shows desperation here in Gaza city. Every man, woman and child clutching precious pots that they hope will be filled enough to help them
survive another day. But then this happens. Some men and boys break through the barrier and start helping themselves, some kitchen workers have to step
back to protect themselves from the chaos.
Some can only watch from behind the barrier, helpless. It is the strongest and the fittest who will go home with food today. Judy is six months old,
emaciated limbs and gaunt features, evidence of her malnutrition. Her mother says she also has a chest infection and fever. When I gave birth to
her, she says, she weighed 2 kilos. She is now 2.3 kilos, so over six months, she has barely gained any weight.
Rantisi Hospital is filled with cases of malnutrition, doctors say they can no longer give their patients one meal a day, and barely half clean water
or medicine. "We have reached a very acute malnutrition phase", this doctor says. It is dangerous. Deaths across Gaza are increasing at an astronomical
rate due to malnutrition and the bad water people are drinking.
It's a hospital scene replicated at every medical center still functioning in Gaza. Back at the soup kitchen, crowds jostle for position or just to
keep hold of their pots. A boy who managed to secure some soup makes sure he does not leave even a drop. "This is not just famine", this woman says.
"It is indescribable hunger on one side, airstrikes on the other."
She's not even hoping for a ceasefire anymore, just the opening of the crossings as people die of hunger. Paula Hancocks, CNN, Abu Dhabi.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[14:05:00]
QUEST: There's Ben Wedeman. Ben has reported extensively from Gaza for decades. Now, the Israeli government's restricted international media from
entering the territory. Ben joins me live from Rome. The pictures are -- that they fail, most of us to put words in any meaningful sense without
sounding trite or -- but the situation as you understand it.
Look, they say they can't get a ceasefire and Israel says it's Hamas that's preventing more aid coming in. And to those of us watching, it's very
difficult to know what the real situation actually is.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is. But you know, these photos, these videos, very disturbing, but it doesn't seem that
anybody really is willing to lift a finger at this point to put an end to this horror. What we know is that Steve Witkoff; the Special White House
envoy to the Middle East, has said that the U.S. is pulling its negotiators out of Doha in Qatar where these negotiations have been going on for now
more than two weeks.
He put out a statement saying that "we've decided to bring our team home for consultations after the latest response from Hamas, which, in his
words, clearly shows a lack of desire to reach a ceasefire in Gaza. The Israelis also announced they're pulling their team out of Doha as well. But
the signals are confusing.
They say that the talks will continue. This is what the Israeli officials say to try to narrow the gaps. This morning, we heard from Israeli
officials saying that Hamas' response has been positive. The response that they received this morning. Now, several days ago, you know, the mediators,
the United States and Qatar put forward proposals to Hamas.
Hamas responded, the mediators said the Hamas' response wasn't acceptable. So, Hamas came back with this other response, which of course, we heard was
a -- was positive from the Israelis. Now, suddenly, both the United States and Israel are saying that Hamas' response is not good enough. Now, Hamas
has expressed opposition to Israel's intention to occupy large parts of what remains of the Gaza Strip.
Hamas wants the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a rather absurd name for a foundation that has left more than a thousand people dead,
killed trying to get food in Gaza. They want that replaced by the United Nations which did have a far less bloody system of food distribution in
place in Gaza.
Hamas also wants the release of more than 2,000 Gazans who have been taken prisoner by the Israelis since the beginning --
QUEST: Ben --
WEDEMAN: Of the war. And importantly, they want U.S. guarantees that Israel isn't going to do what it --
QUEST: Right --
WEDEMAN: Did in the January 19th ceasefire, which -- and march the Israelis unilaterally declared was over and resumed its war on Gaza. So,
clearly, Hamas has reasons to doubt the sincerity of the Americans and the Israelis as well. And in the presence of this deadlock, more and more
people are being killed.
The death toll in Gaza, according to the Ministry of Health there is almost 60,000 people, tens of thousands of them, women and children, Richard.
QUEST: All right, thank you. Ben Wedeman in Rome. Thank you. A new chapter in the Jeffrey Epstein saga. Well, President Trump struggles to change the
news cycle, the deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche is meeting with Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. She'll -- you remember, she's
serving a 20-year prison sentence after being convicted of sex trafficking.
Today's meeting in Florida comes a day after the judge declined to release grand jury documents from the criminal probe into Epstein. Maxwell is
believed to have opposed it as well. Amid the MAGA uproar, sources telling us that the Attorney General, U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi, told the
President back in May his name is in the files, though there's no indication that he's implicated in any illegal activity.
Kevin Liptak joins us now from the White House. Each time I read these, I get more confused as to what's happening. We've got the President going
today to the Fed, which is highly unusual in its own right. I don't know if he's going to look at the new marble or to the renovations, but I suspect
it's some form of a distraction or delaying or diversionary tactic to what's actually going on with, of course, with the Epstein case.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: I think that's absolutely right. You know, it's the first time in almost 20 years that an American
President has gone, and it's only three blocks away to the headquarters of the Federal Reserve.
[14:10:00]
The last one was George W. Bush when Ben Bernanke was being sworn in. And I think you're right, it is in a lot of ways an attempt to pivot away from
this Epstein story, try and get people to move on.
But everything that the President has done so far has been unsuccessful on that front. And you see them kind of taking this frantic effort to do
everything they can to try and appear as if they're being more transparent about what is exactly in the Epstein files, and trying to be more proactive
in trying to find out more about what happened, which is what Todd Blanche, the number two law enforcement officer in the entire country is doing down
in Tallahassee today.
He's sitting in a courtroom with Ghislaine Maxwell, the Jeffrey Epstein associate, and with her lawyers discussing potentially ways to get more
information about this case out into the public. But you know, a lot of things are unclear about that. One is what exactly Ghislaine is willing --
Ghislaine Maxwell is willing to tell Todd Blanche about all of this.
And what Todd Blanche is willing to do to help Ghislaine Maxwell to get her to say more. You know, she's just at the start of this 20-year sentence.
She has maintained her innocence, and it seems almost certain that she's not going to help them unless they offer some kind of leniency in return.
QUEST: This is so unusual. I mean, I can't think of a case where somebody as senior as the deputy AG has gone and met a convicted criminal who's only
been recently convicted, who is fully -- appeals haven't fully been heard through the system. Personally, in a case where the President -- I mean,
it's just -- it's just mind-boggling what --
LIPTAK: Yes --
QUEST: What they could be discussing and negotiating over.
LIPTAK: And not to mention that Todd Blanche is President Trump's former criminal defense attorney. So, there are all kinds of sort of unprecedented
aspects to what's going on there down in Florida, not to mention this question of what Ghislaine Maxwell is going to try and get out of it. There
are a lot of people who are wondering, you know, what she will say.
She will basically say anything to potentially try and get her sentence lessened. Her attorneys say that of course, she will be truthful in all of
this, but plenty of the President's own supporters question whether she is actually a reliable narrator in all this. You know, she's a convicted sex
trafficker. And so, they kind of wonder what the administration is really hoping to achieve.
And that includes a lot of Republicans. You know, there are this group of Republicans in the House who voted --
QUEST: Right --
LIPTAK: Along with Democrats to subpoena both Maxwell and the Justice Department. Clearly, recognizing their own political objectives and trying
to put out there that they are doing everything that they can to try and provide some more transparency at a moment when the White House and the
administration seem to be doing sort of the opposite of that.
QUEST: I assume -- now why am I assuming anything? I mean, at some point, somebody will be suggesting leniency of sentences, pardons, commutations of
sentences. I mean, all sorts of things could be --
LIPTAK: But that's not --
QUEST: Going --
LIPTAK: That's not going to go over well with the President's own base, who the whole reason that they care --
QUEST: Yes --
LIPTAK: So much about this is because they're concerned about the victims, that they haven't gotten the justice that they --
QUEST: Right --
LIPTAK: Have deserved in all of this. And Maxwell, up until now is the only person who has been convicted and is serving any prison time for any
of these crimes. You know, Jeffrey Epstein was in prison, but he died by suicide. And so, I'm not sure that that's going to satisfy any of these
people either.
QUEST: Self preservation, that's what it's going to be -- all right, good, all right, we'll talk more and so much more. Thank you very much, sir,
thank you.
LIPTAK: Yes --
QUEST: Now to the significant escalation in violence between Thailand and Cambodia, where 12 people now have been killed in violent clashes between
civilians and the Cambodian troops. Both countries have recalled ambassadors, and both are urging citizens near the borders to return home
to their home countries as soon as possible.
Japan is joining in by urging everyone to de-escalate, with Thailand launching airstrikes against the Cambodian military. Now, look, this is
what it's all about. The two countries share a land border. It's about 800 kilometers, 500 miles long. And along that border, some areas have been
disputed for decades. So why now? What's gone wrong here? CNN's international correspondent Will Ripley has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A rocket slams into a 7-Eleven near a gas station in Thailand's Sisaket Province. The Thai
military says it was fired from Cambodia just miles away. Local officials say the number of dead is expected to rise. In Thailand's nearby Surin
province, gunfire, families, children scramble.
[14:15:00]
"An eight-year-old boy killed", the Thai military says. This is the deadliest day of fighting between Thailand and Cambodia in more than a
decade. A border skirmish now spiraling into a larger regional crisis, fighting up and down the border between the two countries. Thailand's
military accuses Cambodia of deploying heavy weapons into civilian areas. Rocket launchers, artillery hitting villages, homes and public buildings.
In response, Thailand sealed off all 508 miles of its border with Cambodia, raising fears of prolonged conflict. Diplomatic ties are unraveling,
ambassadors recalled. Cambodia calling for an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting, accusing Thailand's far larger and better equipped army of
brutal, barbaric aggression.
Thai F-16s bombed Cambodian military outposts. Cambodia responding by attacking a Thai army base. Thailand insists it's acting in self-defense.
They say a Thai soldier was wounded in a landmine explosion. Cambodia claims it's only responding to Thai provocations. Thailand's military is
more than triple the size of Cambodia's.
Its Air Force, among the most advanced in southeast Asia. Cambodia has no fighter jets at all. Complicating matters, political turmoil in Thailand.
Prime Minister Paetongtarn Shinawatra suspended last month for a leaked phone call with Cambodia's ex-leader Hun Sen, a long-time ally of her
father, the former Prime Minister.
In the call, she called the Cambodian strong man uncle and even appeared to criticize her own country's powerful military. That triggered anti-
government protests and accusations of undermining national sovereignty. On the streets of Bangkok, many don't want war. They also say Thailand needs
to show strength.
"I want it to end. But if we don't retaliate, they'll think we're weak", he says. Hospitals are evacuating, civilians are dying. Thailand accuses
Cambodia of planting fresh mines at the border, in a place where stepping off the trail can cost you a limb or your life. Cambodia denies adding to
the millions of mines that already blight the region.
(on camera): This latest clash began near a sacred temple, one of many sites along a colonial era border drawn by France, which both countries
have laid claim to for more than a century. And with no ceasefire in sight, you have two nations armed and angry on a collision course that's getting
harder to reverse. Will Ripley, CNN, Taipei.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Now, as we continue together tonight, peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, they're underway in Istanbul. They only lasted 40 minutes. The
deadly airstrikes are continuing. We will be in Kyiv after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:20:00]
QUEST: It was a tense meeting in Beijing between the Chinese leaders and those from the European Union, as the EU urged the Chinese leader Xi
Jinping to help bring an end to Russia's war against Ukraine. President Xi was pressing Brussels to make, in his words, the right strategic choice and
enhance cooperation with China.
Now, the summit was supposed to be two days, it was cut to one, and therefore didn't go as well as perhaps expected. It was designed to
celebrate 50 years of diplomatic ties between Beijing and the EU. As many as 50 people, including some children are now feared to have died after
their plane crashed in Russia's far-eastern Amur region.
Air traffic controllers lost contact with the Soviet-era Antonov, AN 24 aircraft while it was attempting to land. According to state media, the
crew did not issue any distress calls. The plane was operated by a Siberia- based airline called Angara. In Cyprus, residents are now returning to ruins after deadly wildfires that killed two people, destroyed many homes
and forced hundreds of people to evacuate the area.
You can see much of the destruction in the now charred Sunni village. The wildfire comes as a heat wave is bringing temperatures to region to record
levels, and indeed, as you can see, causing dangerous conditions. This is CNN. I'll be back in just a moment. The Gaza ceasefire talks on shaky
ground after U.S. officials hit pause. We'll be talking to a former hostage negotiator and what it may take to get the talks going again.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:25:00]
QUEST: The diplomatic efforts on the Gaza crisis seem to be in jeopardy. The United States has pulled its team of negotiators from the ceasefire
talks taking place in Doha. The U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff says the latest response from Hamas, in his words, clearly shows a lack of desire to
reach a ceasefire deal, adding Hamas does not appear to be coordinated or acting in good faith.
This would all be bad enough except for the fact it is taking place amongst the carnage and horror of the starvation in Gaza at the moment and the
widening humanitarian catastrophe. The United Nations is warning more than a million Palestinian children are facing starvation and malnutrition.
Christiane Amanpour has been speaking to the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMAD MUSTAFA, PRIME MINISTER, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: I think the priority therefore is for the international community to pressure Israel,
seriously pressure Israel to open the borders and allow food in. There is no need to give excuses. The starvation is evident. Everybody in the world
can see that.
The truth is children are also being -- starving, being allowed to die starving. Journalists are being targeted. Aid workers are being targeted.
So, this got to end. There is no reason to continue this war. We need first the border crossing to open it to come in. United Nations and international
organizations be allowed to do their job, a ceasefire to take place, and then Israeli forces to leave Gaza, and then, with the support of
international partners, the Palestinian Authority is more than willing and able to do the job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, Gershon Baskin is a former hostage negotiator, currently the Middle East director of International Communities Organization with me now
from Jerusalem. Let's do, first of all, the diplomacy, although -- I mean, look, it seems -- does anybody want a ceasefire or is willing to go and
make a ceasefire?
And I don't say that in a flippant sense. You know, Witkoff says the -- Hamas doesn't want it. We all know that the Israelis seemingly have been
obstructive in many ways to getting a ceasefire. Netanyahu may have his own reasons for that. And the death and destruction and the toll of starvation
is appalling.
GERSHON BASKIN, MIDDLE EAST DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ORGANIZATION: It certainly is. And here's the problem, the crux of the
problem is that Netanyahu doesn't want to end the war because he's convinced that if Israel withdraws from Gaza, Hamas will rebuild its forces
and rebuild its threat to Israel.
The Palestinian Authority hasn't done its job by appointing a governance or a governor, or some mechanism to take over Gaza. Even from now, when Hamas
is being decimated. And Hamas is wanting a deal that would end the war. Hamas has said that they're willing not to govern Gaza anymore, but they
want a full end to the war and a full Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.
The Israelis don't want to withdraw to the international border. They don't want to end the war. Hamas is demanding the release of at least 200
Palestinian prisoners who have murdered Israelis and are serving life sentences, and that's for a 60-day ceasefire.
QUEST: Right --
BASKIN: But these are very difficult terms. And what we need here is President Trump to weigh in, and to tell Netanyahu it's time to end the
war, and to tell, you know, Witkoff that he has to negotiate a deal to end the war, bring home all the Israeli hostages --
QUEST: Oh --
BASKIN: And Israeli withdrawal --
QUEST: Right, OK, that's easier said, as you know, better than anybody said than done, but take that and just park it to the left, if you will,
for one moment. Because at the same time --
BASKIN: OK --
QUEST: We have the humanitarian crisis that we're seeing. In fact, I hate using that phrase because it doesn't really do justice to what's actually
taking place.
BASKIN: Of course --
QUEST: Why is Israel hell bent on inflicting starvation? Because they say it's up to Hamas. But the reality is the sheer number of trucks being
allowed in would not be enough to feed the people even if Hamas weren't stealing it.
BASKIN: Richard, it's not only the number of trucks going in, there's no mechanism for distributing the food once it gets in there. This Gaza
Humanitarian Foundation that was set up by Israel and evangelical American organizations has four distribution points for a population of 2.2 million-
2.3 million people.
There needs to be 400 distribution points. It cannot be done by this mechanism that was set up. And that's what's leading to the starvation.
Israel could let in more trucks, in fact, Israel claims that there are trucks waiting to get in, there's no mechanism to take the goods off the
trucks and to distribute --
QUEST: All right, so how -- let me just --
BASKIN: The Israeli claim is --
QUEST: Let me just interrupt you here --
BASKIN: The Israeli claim is that Hamas is stealing the food supplies. I think that's not true. We need the international mechanisms there that know
how to do this work. They did it in Gaza before, they've done it in other parts of the world, and Israel just won't let it happen.
QUEST: Okay. But -- and again, I'm not being flippant here. You're familiar, I think it was Colin Powell who used the phrase, the pottery barn
principle. You break it, you own it. To the extent that Israel is now the occupying force in Gaza, and I put those in small letters just before
somebody decides to protest, but to the extent that Israel is, it's Israel's obligation to ensure enough food is going in, and that regardless
of the circumstances, is an obligation upon which they are failing.
BASKIN: They're certainly failing it. And while they're failing in feeding the population and taking care of their international responsibilities as
an occupying power in Gaza, there are members of the Israeli government that are planning for the mass transference of the Gaza population out of
Gaza to other countries. There are people working for the Israeli government who are negotiating with other countries to take these people.
This is a breach of international law. This is illegal. It's a crime, a war crime, and a crime against humanity that's being done by the state of
Israel.
QUEST: Gershon, you are in Jerusalem at the moment. Why are Israelis not up in arms at what they are seeing? Why aren't Israeli mothers -- yes, I
understand October the 7th and the atrocity but, as you know, two wrongs certainly never made a right any time in any form of language. So why
aren't Israeli mothers, fathers, parents saying enough, that this has to stop?
BASKIN: They're beginning to say it but it's very small and margins -- on the margin of Israeli society. Israel is still in trauma. Israel is
exhausted. Israel is seeing its own soldiers being killed almost on a daily basis in Gaza. The Israelis want the war to end, but they still believe
that there are no innocent people in Gaza. So, it's a kind of cognitive dissonance of going on. Eighty percent of Israelis want the war to end and
want the hostages to come home, but a great deal of Israelis --
QUEST: Gershon, can you stay with me?
BASKIN: -- in their lines.
QUEST: Can you stay with me? I'm going to the State Department. Have a listen to this question and answers on aid.
BASKIN: Okay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMMY PIGOTT, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY SPOKESPERSON, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE: -- aid when they're able to. We have a system in place attempting to get as
much aid into Gaza as possible in a way where it is not being looted by Hamas. That is the reality that we're seeing. That is the reality that
we're pushing for, trying to get as much aid in there as we possibly can.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Does the State Department have an official assessment of what the humanitarian or the food situation is? Is it famine?
Is it mass starvation that we're seeing? Is there like -- do you have an assessment?
PIGOTT: Well, I can say that we are acutely aware of the humanitarian situation on the ground. In terms of a specific assessment, I have nothing
to preview on that front, but we are acutely aware.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Is it something you're looking into?
PIGOTT: Well, we are very much aware of the humanitarian disaster that is there. We're very much aware of it. That again goes back to the commitment
of why we're trying to get aid into Gaza.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): And quickly, because I have something on Syria, but just, you know, you keep referencing the 90 million meals. That's since May
27th for 2.1 million people. I think assessments suggest that number needs to be closer to 350 million meals in order to get these people the food
they need. So, that's a big delta, obviously. What -- what can -- what can be done short of assigning complete blame to Hamas? What can be done to
improve GHF's ability to get food?
PIGOTT: Well, from the beginning, when this started, we did see a ramp up in terms of the food that they've been able to deliver. We also saw efforts
from this administration, support for this Gaza humanitarian foundation. And the hope is that we'll have other entities supporting this mechanism as
well so that we can deliver as much food as possible.
It will never be enough. We're working every day to get as close as possible. But it will never be enough because of the situation on the
ground. That is not an excuse, but that is the reality we are dealing with. And we are working every single day to get as much food to support those
efforts as we possibly can. Because of our recognition of the disaster on the ground, because of the humanitarian catastrophe, every single day
working towards that.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): And just on Syria really quickly. The administrator -- do you think --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: There we have the State Department, deputy State Department spokesman. Gershon is with me. There's an interesting rubric that's now
being used by the U.S., I can hear, and by all people. It will never be enough. It's sort of becoming a term of art now that everybody's using
rather than sort of saying well, yes, but it wasn't enough to begin with. Everybody's now sort of running for cover.
[14:35:00]
I also understand, let's talk about it, that the U.K. has announced, Keir Starmer, the prime minister, that U.K, France, Germany and Italy are to
hold -- have a phone call on the Gaza humanitarian situation. When you listen to the State Department and you have this phone call, I mean, you
still sort of wonder why don't they just all save the cost of the phone bill because nothing seems to change.
BASKIN: That's right. It's pretty dreadful. It was almost sickening to hear the State Department officials speaking about the lack of ability of
the United States to ensure that Israel allows food to get into Gaza. They need to get to the 2.1 million people who are there. We're talking about 90
million meals when the person asked the question, talking about 350 million meals that needed to be served by this point.
Again, I go back to the four distribution points for 2.2 million people when it needs to be 400. There are ways of getting the aid in. There are
ways of ensuring that Hamas is no longer in control of Gaza. But that requires, Richard, first and foremost, to getting an end to this war, a
permanent ceasefire, bringing home the hostages, doing the deal.
Even as hard as it is that Hamas is demanding that Israel withdraw from the border, Israel will not be attacked again by Hamas from Gaza. It wouldn't
have happened on October 7th if the Israeli army was doing its job and it was where it was supposed to be. We don't have to be afraid from made-up
threats, which is what's happening today.
QUEST: Gershon, it's late for you or getting into the late evening for you. Thank you for taking time to talk to me. I'm grateful. Thank you.
Let's go to Russia unleashing an aerial attack on central Kharkiv earlier on Thursday. Local officials are saying at least 33 people have been
injured from one airstrike near a multi-story residential building.
It's the latest attack as Russia and Ukraine have agreed to another prisoner swap, which seems to be the only progress during the talks that
took place in Istanbul between Moscow and Kiev. It came following the day after President Trump gave Moscow a 50-day peace -- what he describes as
very severe tariffs.
CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is on the ground for us. Is there -- I mean, obviously, the violence and the attacks are continuing, but is there a mood
change since you were there last, Nick, bearing in mind that President Trump does seem to be taking a marginally, my word, marginally more
muscular approach to Russia?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I think, yes, it's true that Trump's tone over this conflict and the Kremlin have
changed. That has been palpable for weeks. But it has clearly made little difference, as we can see, so far in terms of how Russia is behaving. And
the talks yesterday, frankly, were evidence of that.
We've had prisoner exchanges, possibly at lesser volume, but they've been occurring regularly over the past months. And these talks maybe were a
performative gesture from Moscow to try and suggest to the White House that yes, they're still going along with the visuals of a peace process.
But, ultimately, nothing changed. It was barely 40 minutes long, this discussion, and didn't really even get into one of the main Ukrainian
tenets of the talks, which is the idea of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine and president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, meeting face to face.
Instead, I think there is now, it's fair to say, here in Ukraine, despite - - the remarkably normal scenes you see behind me. And it's fair to say, on many evenings here, this does not feel like a city under siege until the
sirens come on, and then life dramatically changes.
And we've seen after diplomacy has failed, I should say failed, but ultimately has gone nowhere, as we've been seeing over the past months,
that that has led to a barrage intensifying from the Russian side. So, fears, potentially, here, we might see that in the nights
ahead.
But then the key thing that seems to be behind so much of this Russian posturing is their frontline progress, which has been incremental for
months. But in the past weeks, I think we've seen around key towns in the east, Richard, things heightened, changed. Progress by the Russians
increasing to the point where it may not just be villages you've never heard of, it may eventually in the weeks ahead be something of some
significance.
And behind all of that, Richard, the bigger problem here in Kiev has been the last few days of protest, the first protest since the start of the war
against the Ukrainian government of Zelenskyy, against his move to try and give some kind of presidential or governmental oversight over an anti-
corruption bureau that was put in place to be entirely independent, ultimately to safeguard western investment and to give Ukrainians the sense
of progress that many feel they're fighting the war over. Well, Zelenskyy moved in a few days ago to put in prosecutorial oversight --
QUEST: We seemed to have lost Nick Paton Walsh, the line went down there, but we got the important points of what he was talking about. You and I
continue. In a moment, President Trump wants to use his intelligence when it comes to changing A.I., pushing the U.S. ahead in technology.
[14:40:01]
Why he thinks much of what's already out there is way too woke.
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QUEST: Hulk Hogan, one of the most famous professional wrestlers ever, has died. He was 71. It was a heart attack, reportedly. Hogan grew to fame in
the 1980s when he appeared in the movie "Rocky 3." He later became the face of professional wrestling as world champion of the World Wrestling
Federation. One of his most memorable T.V. appearances was when he endorsed Donald Trump. He called him "my hero" on the final day of the Republican
National Convention in 2024.
CNN's Stephanie Elam on the wrestling legend.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HULK HOGAN, WRESTLER: Since I'm the number one in professional wrestling, everybody wants to jump on the bandwagon, man.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The legend who became Hulk Hogan was first drawn to wrestling as a fan. A young musician named Terry
Bollea, whose height and enthusiasm got noticed by the wrestlers he met.
HOGAN: And they said, man, if you could gain some weight (INAUDIBLE) there, you know, you might be able to beat (ph) any of us.
ELAM (voice-over): Bollea received his stage name, Hulk, after fellow wrestlers noticed he was bigger than Lou Ferrigno, the bodybuilder who
played the "Incredible Hulk" on T.V.
HOGAN: We got hundreds of thousands of Hulkamaniacs. We're going to make wood stock look like a backyard barbeque, brother.
ELAM (voice-over): Hogan was not a graceful wrestler, but he was skilled in getting the audience on his side. He became an overwhelming crowd
favorite, riding a huge wave of popularity he called "Hulkamania."
HOGAN: For me, you can try to (INAUDIBLE) on some weekend and catch 10 saturating hours of Hulk Hogan or more. So, I spent a lot of time in front
of the camera.
ELAM (voice-over): Hogan's pride in his work got him into legal trouble. In 1984, during a talk show appearance, comedian Richard Belzer asked Hogan
to try a wrestling move on him. Hogan put Belzer in a real sleeper hold, causing him to passed out and collapsed onto the hard studio floor. Belzer
ended up with a deep cut to the back of his head. He filed a lawsuit against Hogan and the World Wrestling Federation, which was settled out of
court.
But Hogan's star continued to rise, presenting himself as a healthy, family-friendly, flag-waving patriot.
HOGAN: Train, say your prayers, eat your vitamins, be true to yourself, true to your country, be a real American.
[14:45:00]
ELAM (voice-over): The peak of his wrestling career came in WrestleMania III when he defeated Andre the Giant with a body slam.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Look at this!
(APPLAUSE)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): I can't believe it!
ELAM (voice-over): Out of character, Hogan admitted that his level of stardom couldn't last forever.
HOGAN: They're excited as heck to see you. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. Thank God, it's still happening. What if it wasn't?
ELAM (voice-over): Eventually, Hogan's wrestling stardom did fade and was tarnished when he was forced in court to admit he had used steroids. Hogan
tried to rebrand himself as a reality T.V. star, the over-productive dad to two kids in "Hogan Knows Best."
HOGAN: If we're dysfunctional, we're a normal dysfunctional family.
ELAM (voice-over): But that family image was rocked after his longtime marriage ended, and a video later leaked online showed him having sex with
a married woman. Hogan sued the website Gawker for invasion of privacy. The case ultimately bankrupted Gawker and ended with $31 million settlement for
Hogan.
HOGAN: I think we made history today because I think we protected a lot of people from maybe going through what I went through.
ELAM (voice-over): In the ring, on TV, or even in the courts, Hulk Hogan was a compelling entertainer who fulfilled the celebrity dream he had for
himself.
HOGAN: When it's in your blood, you'll do about anything to make it and get the job done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Hogan, of course, was also very much a supporter of President Trump, which we'll talk about with our next guest.
As we're looking at the question of artificial intelligence, President Trump is looking to make the United States a leader in A.I., and one of the
things he wants to do is to scrub A.I. models of what he believes is woke ideals.
On Wednesday, the president said he had signed an executive order prohibiting the federal government from acquiring A.I. technology that has
been infused with partisan bias or ideological agendas such as critical race theory.
It's part of a move by the White House's A.I. action plan of initiatives, policy recommendations to push the U.S. towards artificial intelligence.
Donald Trump also thinks Americans don't want, in his words, woke Marxist lunacy in their models.
With me is David Sanger, covers Washington for "The New York Times" and Trump's A.I. challenge. Before we get into A.I., I do need to just ask -- I
mean, this relationship that President Trump had with Hogan, of course, the famous speech at the convention, what was that all about?
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE AND NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, that was all
about branding. Right? I mean, one of the things that President Trump did that managed to help get him elected was bring along the votes of young
males who previously had not voted frequently for Republican presidential candidates, and it was all part of his effort to sort of attract a new
grouping around MAGA, and Hulk Hogan helped.
QUEST: So, both got something out of it. Hogan got his publicity --
SANGER: They sure did.
QUEST: -- up the charts again. I'm not saying (INAUDIBLE). Fascinating. Now, look, A.I., what is it that they want? I mean, do they want a MAGA-
friendly A.I.? When people sort of say we want a woke-free A.I., I start getting a bit suspicious about what they really want.
SANGER: Well, first question is, who defines woke for that?
QUEST: Yeah. Right.
SANGER: But Richard, human or bot make the decision. Right? But back this up a little bit. If you had heard a year ago the concerns about A.I. from
the Biden administration, what was the concern that you would hear the most about? You would hear about the fear that you could use a large language
model to help a terrorist design a chemical or biological weapon or help the North Koreans perfect their missile shots or their nuclear weapons. And
so, there was a lot of talk about putting up guardrails within these models to keep that from happening.
You don't hear very much of that from the Trump administration. What you heard instead yesterday at this remarkable speech in Washington, in the
very room where the NATO treaty was first signed in 1949, what you heard from the president was this concern that the biggest danger isn't weapons
of mass destruction, it's wokeness inside the code. And I'm not entirely sure how Google or OpenAI or Anthropic are supposed to go monitor what MAGA
would consider to be woke.
QUEST: But it's easier for them to deflect that off, arguably.
[14:49:57]
It's easier for them to go along with this and deflect it off than the much more tricky thing of having to worry about cybersecurity, Russia, China and
all the other types because we notice, for example, they are --- the administration, the U.S. administration seems to be shifting slightly more
towards Chinese perspective on what it would like A.I. to be doing, to be friendly to them.
SANGER: I -- I think that's right. I mean, take a look at the moment that they are adding on, Richard, the wokeness creation. What have they done
over at the Cybersecurity and Information Security Agency, which is part of DHS? They got rid of that part of the agency that was looking at questions
of state-sponsored information manipulation around the elections, all of the issues that came up during 2020 and some during 2016.
So, the president wants less monitoring of what Russia and China might be infusing the internet with, and he wants more control over what answers
A.I. would give you.
QUEST: Right. Is it your understanding, having looked into this, that actually what is happening is he's getting what he wants, that the
companies are going along with it? Any -- I mean, anything for a peaceful life, anything that he doesn't turn the bully pulpit upon them.
SANGER: I think you're seeing a lot of that. You know, during the Biden administration, these companies were almost asking the federal government
to go regulate them. What they're getting from the Trump administration is very little regulation except on this topic.
And if you're looking for a parallel here, Richard, it's very much what's happening between the president and research universities, right, where the
president is defining what counts as antisemitic activity, what might count as DEI activity.
QUEST: I'm running out of time. But joking about that. I just need to ask you. Did Columbia cave? Did Columbia University cave with that deal?
SANGER: You know, I think, in that deal, they probably got about as good a deal as they were going to get. And if this dragged out for years in court,
they were going to have more than a billion dollars in research probably at stake.
QUEST: Talk about the first deal, what's the -- the longer term versus the short pain.
SANGER: Yeah.
QUEST: Good to see you, David. Thank you very much as always. Thank you.
SANGER: Great to see you, Richard.
QUEST: And as you and I continue tonight, are you struggling to hit 10,000 steps a day? A new number from a new study that tells what to aim for. And
I might even tell -- no, I'm not going to tell. Today, I haven't been doing the steps because I'll tell you what I've been up.
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[14:55:00]
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QUEST: Ten thousand steps. I'm about 6,000 so far today. How are you doing? Well, good news, you can lower the goal and still see the same
health benefits. According to a study, it's in "The Lancet," looking to improve overall health, you can aim for just 7,000 steps. Yay! Only a
thousand more to do.
Researchers looked at 31 different studies that weighed the impact of overall step count on cardiovascular disease, dementia, type 2 diabetes,
cancer, the lot. The goal of 10,000 likely originated from a marketing campaign for a Japanese pedometer, according to a 2019 study.
I have just given you carte blanche. I've given you the get out clause, the get-out-of-jail free that you need. You no longer need to have 10,000
steps.
(LAUGHTER)
Donuts will do instead.
Thanks for watching. Stay with CNN. I'll have "Quest Means Business" in just over an hour. But that's on the other side of what we know with
Christina Macfarlane because the news never stops. Neither do we.
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END
