Return to Transcripts main page

Isa Soares Tonight

Zelenskyy Warns Against Deception in Possible Ceasefire Talks; Putin has "Conditions" for Zelenskyy Joining U.S.-Russia Summit; Trump and Putin Likely to Meet Next Week; Sudan's Humanitarian Crisis. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu Looking to Take Full Control of Gaza; A Kremlin Aide Cites Trump and Putin are Planning to Meet Soon Over Russia-Ukraine Ceasefire; Trump's Historic Tariffs Kick In. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired August 07, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

OMAR JIMENEZ, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Omar Jimenez in for Isa Soares. Tonight, Benjamin Netanyahu looks to take

full control of Gaza. The Israeli security cabinet meeting this hour as desperate Palestinians starve waiting for aid. Uncertainty swirls around a

meeting between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump.

Where and when might the leaders meet, and will Volodymyr Zelenskyy be invited? Plus, the U.S. President's historic tariffs kick in, amounting to

the highest tax on foreign goods since the Great Depression. We're going to break down the numbers and the market reaction.

But up first, we intend to take control of all of Gaza. That message today from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, just before his security

cabinet began meeting on a plan to dramatically expand the war. Now, Netanyahu is pushing for a full takeover as a way to root out Hamas.

Despite some opposition from his own military and the families of hostages, now protests are happening at this moment across Israel and outside the

security cabinet meeting in Jerusalem -- some of the images here. An Israeli official says the operation would take up to five months and

require forcing more than a million Palestinians out of Gaza city and other areas into compounds in southern Gaza. Here's what Netanyahu told "Fox

News".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you saying today that you will take control of the entire 26-mile Gaza Strip, as it was 20 years ago, to this month in 2005?

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: Well, we don't want to keep it. We want to have a security perimeter, but we don't want to govern it.

We don't want to be there as a governing body. We want to hand it over to Arab forces that will govern it properly without threatening us and giving

Gazans a good life. That's not possible with Hamas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, plans to escalate the war come amid dire warnings of a looming famine. The World Health Organization says nearly 12,000 children

under five years old were identified in July as suffering from acute malnutrition in Gaza, which is the highest monthly figure ever recorded.

People who attempt to access food are killed by the dozens virtually every day. Doctors without borders released a report today saying, quote, "this

is not aid. This is orchestrated killing." It's calling for U.S.-Israeli backed food distribution sites as well to be shut down. Now, some

Palestinians say conditions right now are so horrific, it's hard to imagine things getting worse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Threaten us as you wish. What else can you do to us? The policy of starvation and you starved us. The policy of killing and you

killed us. You burnt us, bombed us, damaged us. Nothing is left. Who are you threatening? Are you threatening dead people? We are waiting for our

turn to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: We're joined now by our Jerusalem bureau chief, Oren Liebermann. So, Oren, I know we're continuing to monitor what comes out of this

security cabinet meeting, but we intend to take control of all of Gaza, it feels like a major escalation to the position that we are in right now. Can

you just explain sort of the dynamics that we're looking at, at this moment?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Of course, the key question here that we're looking for coming out of the security cabinet meeting is,

what does the full conquest of Gaza as one Israeli official put it, look like? And that's a question that the political echelon has to essentially

decide and then order for the Israeli military.

According to the military, Israel already controls some 75 percent of Gaza with a military occupation. So, what does pushing into that last 25 percent

look like? The phased plan that's being considered according to Israeli officials that we have spoken to, would take 4 to 5 months. The first phase

would be evacuating Gaza city and other populated areas.

That's approximately 1 million Palestinians, nearly half the population that would be displaced into southern Gaza where Israel and perhaps the

U.S. would build compounds to effectively house and shelter and contain them. Meanwhile, at that point, the debate is whether Israel lays siege to

what was left of those areas or conducts a more intrusive operation and goes directly into those areas where in some cases, Israeli soldiers

haven't been to this point.

[14:05:00]

Now, what's critical to note here is the discord within or between, rather, the Israeli military level and the political level. The IDF Chief of Staff,

Lieutenant General Eyal Zamir, has warned that a full military occupation of Gaza would endanger Israeli soldiers, would endanger the hostages in

areas where they are believed to be, and would add a tremendous burden onto the Israeli military after nearly two years of war.

And that's not to say anything for the humanitarian crisis that would likely worsen if Israel expands its control of Gaza. Meanwhile, as you just

heard from Netanyahu there, he is pushing for a full military takeover, effectively the larger of those escalation options that are being

considered. The question now is what comes out of the security cabinet meeting?

It's possible that after hours of discussions, there may not be a vote and they'll continue discussing it in the coming days. But frankly, if

Netanyahu wants to push this through, the expectation is that he very much has the votes to move in the direction that he just stated he wants to go

in.

JIMENEZ: A dynamic we will be continuing to watch closely. Oren Liebermann, appreciate the reporting as always. Meanwhile, Gaza's Interior

Ministry is acting -- is asking countries to stop airdropping aid, saying the grave dangers to people on the ground far outweigh any benefit. It

wants more land crossings to be opened instead.

A call echoed by the World Food Program, by the way, which says, quote, "we can't airdrop our way out of a famine". CNN's Matthew Chance got a

firsthand look at the airdrop operations and the risks they pose while traveling on a Jordanian Air Force flight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (on camera): You've got these big transport aircraft behind me. These are from the Jordanian Air

Force, but there are other countries as well, like Germany and Belgium and the United Arab Emirates and France and Britain. They're all sort of taking

part in this international humanitarian effort to drop aid in Gaza.

And they're loaded up with pallets in the back cargo space. You then take off from this airport in Amman, which is in Jordan, head over towards the

Gaza Strip. The back opens up and then the aid pallets, they parachute off into the waiting crowds below. And you can see on the tailfin of this

aircraft there, is a very idealistic scene painted of a Jordanian transporter, actually one of the Jordanian transporters dropping

humanitarian aid into Gaza and people are gratefully receiving it.

The reality is much more chaotic, much more violent. Remember, there's an intense humanitarian starvation crisis underway in Gaza. And so, people are

absolutely desperate for any kind of food that they can get. And so these aid drops result in chaos on the ground. People scrambling, violence.

There have been multiple stabbings of people as they try to get their hands on the aid packages.

Also, people have been killed by the aid pallets actually hitting them on the head as they drop down. And so, look, this is a far from perfect means

of delivering humanitarian assistance into that crisis zone. But having said that, there is intense starvation that's gathering pace in the Gaza

Strip.

And so, yes, today, for instance, we delivered six-and-a-half tons of powdered milk and tinned food to Gaza from the back of one of these

Jordanian transport, military transport planes. It's not much. It's nowhere near enough to tackle the hunger problems in Gaza. But it's better than

nothing. And for some people in the Gaza Strip, it may make the difference between life and death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: Matthew Chance, thank you for that reporting. I want to bring in the President of the Palestinian National Initiative, Mustafa Barghouti

says -- he says "Israel is using the airdrops to cover its deadly siege of Gaza". Barghouti is also a member of the Palestinian parliament. He joins

us now from Ramallah.

Thank you for being here. I just want to start with what is your reaction to prime -- Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying he intends for

Israel to take military control of all of Gaza?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: What Netanyahu just said and what the Israeli cabinet is discussing now has

proven that Netanyahu is the biggest liar in modern history. He kept lying all the time, and now we're discovering his lies. He lied about that his --

the aim of his military operation is to bring back the Israeli captives.

Now, he's going to kill them. He's going to threaten their lives with his military operations. He claimed that he was ready for a ceasefire

agreement, and now we are discovering that he's the one with some American help actually, unfortunately, who undermined the possibility of reaching a

ceasefire agreement.

He claimed that his goal is to remove Hamas or destroy Hamas, but clearly now, his aim is to reoccupy Gaza completely, and then conduct the worst act

of ethnic cleansing in human history. His goal -- his declared goal, and he's not hiding it now, is to move everybody.

[14:10:00]

The 2.2 million people to a concentration camp. The largest concentration camp ever, much larger than the concentration camps that the Nazis did, and

then force them out of Gaza. And then he adds another lie, saying that he might bring some Arab countries to rule Gaza, rule who? By that time he had

-- he would have annexed Gaza completely to Israel.

This is the reality of the Israeli policy. And he's going to cause not only terrible amount of death and destruction, more destruction after he has

destroyed 93 percent of all homes in Gaza. He wants to create the worst kind of human catastrophe. This is going to be a holocaust, a much -- a

horrible holocaust, and it's so sad that some of these --

JIMENEZ: Well, let me ask you --

BARGHOUTI: People whose ancestors suffered from holocaust before, are committing another one in Gaza now.

JIMENEZ: Well, let me just -- let me just ask you here because, you know, you said he wants to occupy and move over what we've heard from him to this

point. Again, these things can always change, is that he -- the plan under consideration would be to remove Hamas before handing the territory to

civilian governments that is not Hamas.

And I ask you, do you see that as a possibility of something that could actually work? And if so, what would that alternative be?

BARGHOUTI: No, he didn't say that, sir. He said -- didn't say he would remove -- he'd remove the authority to a civilian non-Hamas structure. He's

refusing that as a matter of fact. He wants to bring some kind of imaginary Arab rule to put, of course, Palestinians in contradiction with some Arab

countries.

The fact is that Netanyahu said he doesn't accept even the Palestinian Authority or any non-Hamas faction. He said no to Hamas' stand, no Fatah --

no to Fatah stand as well. And we had a plan.

A Palestinian plan with the agreement of 14 Palestinian groups, including Hamas, which told all of us that they don't want to stay in the government,

they don't want to be in the government, and the government that could be there, according to Beijing declaration, which we all signed, is to create

an independent Palestinian government that could rule Gaza, consisting of independence accepted by everybody.

The plan is there. But Netanyahu refuses it, because Netanyahu not only doesn't want any Palestinian to rule Gaza, he doesn't want to have any

Palestinian in Gaza. This is an act of ethnic cleansing in the 21st century. And I am so shocked that the American administration, the Trump

administration, is participating in that and allowing it to happen.

This will make the United States complicit with war crimes like the war crime of ethnic cleansing, of a whole population. And let me remind you

that, this is also happening in parallel in the West Bank, where the Israeli terrorist settlers are attacking Palestinian communities and

forcing them out of their communities.

The plan is not only for Gaza, but also eventually to cleanse also the West Bank. This is a terrible plan that would lead to a terrible disaster, not

only for Palestinians, but for the whole region.

JIMENEZ: And we haven't heard that explicitly at this point. But I -- but I take your point, and I ask you on this front, because I know you've seen

the recent declaration from Arab and Muslim states, including Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, issuing that joint call for Hamas to disarm and relinquish

power.

That joint document released from a recent meeting with the Arab League, the EU, 17 other countries, read in part that Hamas must hand over its

weapons to the Palestinian Authority with international engagement and support, in line with the objective of a sovereign and independent

Palestinian state.

Do you think -- I guess two-part question. Is that something you would support? But do you think the added pressure of -- from countries who have

been engaged with both Israel and Hamas at points of this could sway Netanyahu at all in the plans that may go forward at this point?

BARGHOUTI: No, I don't think so. And I tell you why? OK, let's say that Hamas tomorrow is ready to hand over whatever is left of its light weapons

to the Palestinian Authority. Does Netanyahu accept the presence of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza? No. He refuses that. Does he accept an

independent Palestinian government in Gaza to take over the responsibility and put Hamas aside? No.

He's not accepting any Palestinian in Gaza. He's not accepting any Palestinian rule in Gaza. And that's why today, he spoke about bringing

some kind of Arab rule. What does that mean?

[14:15:00]

Why does he want to force us out of our country? This is the problem, because this man believes that there is no place on the land of historic

Palestine for not only a Palestinian government, but for Palestinian people in general.

That is the reality of his policy. And if he was really ready to accept the Palestinian Authority, why is he stripping away from the Palestinian

Authority in the West Bank, where Hamas is not ruling, he's taking away from them all their authorities, and he's expanding his settlements into

all areas including those who are supposed to be under Palestinian Authority.

JIMENEZ: President of the Palestinian National Initiative Mustafa Barghouti, thank you for being here.

BARGHOUTI: Thank you.

JIMENEZ: All right, meanwhile, the long-anticipated in-person meeting between U.S. President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin

could happen next week. But whether Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will attend still unknown. Now, President Putin said during today

-- during a meeting today with the Emirati President that he has nothing against the idea of Mr. Zelenskyy attending if certain conditions are met.

He also confirmed he would likely meet with President Trump next week, and that the UAE would be one of the, quote, "suitable places for a possible

meeting". The Kremlin confirmation, though, comes on the heels of a visit to Moscow by U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff and, for his part, President

Zelenskyy says he's open to a trilateral summit.

But he cautioned that Russia might try to deceive the U.S. and Ukraine. President Trump's deadline for Moscow to show progress in ending the

conflict is less than 24 hours away. Fred Pleitgen joins us now from Moscow. So, Fred, we're getting bits and pieces of a potential meeting, but

it still seems there's a long way to go before this becomes reality.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Russians say that they're working on -- the meeting is in preparation, but

they also say, obviously, the preparation does take a certain amount of time. They say right now that they're aiming also for sometime next week.

But I mean, you've just already laid out how much of it already -- still appears to be up in the air as far as this meeting is concerned. First of

all, the summit venue, the Russians have said it could be in the United Arab Emirates. The U.S. has not confirmed that yet. The Russians have said

that it had been agreed upon with the United States a summit venue, but that wouldn't be announced just yet.

So, there are certain amounts of things as just as far as the logistics is concerned, and then, of course, as far as the politics is concerned, even

more so. One of the things that you mentioned there was the fact that President Trump had said that he wanted a meeting with Vladimir Putin, that

he was open to a meeting with Vladimir Putin, and then possibly at a later date, also a trilateral meeting with Volodymyr Zelenskyy there as well.

The Russians seem quite reluctant about that. One of the interesting things that the Russians said today, Omar, and this comes in the form of a senior

Kremlin aide named Yuri Ushakov, who was in that meeting also with Steve Witkoff and Vladimir Putin as well, they said that it was the Americans

that floated the idea of a trilateral meeting, but that the Russians in the meeting between Putin and Witkoff, did not react to that at all.

They didn't say yes or no. They simply did not react to that. The other thing from today that we also garnered from the Russians as well, which

also seemed very important, is that Yuri Ushakov once again said that the Russians had not, as he put it, changed their stance as far as the conflict

in Ukraine is concerned.

And of course, that means that, that gulf that's been present between the stance of the U.S. administration or the Trump administration and the Putin

administration remains, where the Trump administration has said it wants an immediate 30-day ceasefire in the conflict in Ukraine. But the Russians

are saying that they want longer-term negotiations and then leading to a wider peace deal.

Of course, we know that the conflict seems to be pretty far away from that. So, that fundamental rift still appears to be there. And it's unclear

whether or not the negotiating teams that are trying to prepare this summit that's supposed to take place just between Vladimir Putin and President

Donald Trump, whether they're going to be able to bridge those and get the two together in the time that has been laid out, which appears to be that

they're aiming for sometime next week, Omar.

JIMENEZ: Fred Pleitgen in Moscow, thank you so much. Meanwhile, still to come tonight, U.S. President Donald Trump is hailing a new round of global

tariffs. But will they lead to an economic boom or bust? We'll talk about it. Plus, a crisis often forgotten. More than 12 million people have been

forcibly displaced in the Sudan. I'll speak live to a U.N. representative on the ground.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:20:00]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back, everyone, a lot to follow on the tariff front because United States tariffs relentlessly championed by President Donald

Trump are now in effect worldwide at levels not seen since the Great Depression nearly a century ago. So, let's take a look here. These are the

countries with the steepest U.S. tariffs rates.

You see Brazil at the top there, India could join Brazil at the top of the list if it fails to reach a new trade agreement with the United States

before the end of the month. Besides the impact on global markets, economies and businesses, the new tariffs could also drive up the price --

the prices of a number of products for American consumers. President Trump's Treasury Secretary, though, says the levies will provide the U.S.

economy with a major boost.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, SECRETARY OF TREASURY, UNITED STATES: The trade deals are largely done, and now we can really hone in on the affordability. At

treasury, we're going to be looking at what we can do for housing, for student loans, for overall, because there is an affordability crisis. The

first step in easing the affordability crisis was to bring down inflation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: We're joined now by CNN business and economics reporter Anna Cooban. All right, so, the day the deadline came, and now these tariffs are

in effect. We just showed the graphic on what the rates were for a number of countries there. What has fundamentally changed, and what dynamics do

people need to be watching for in the days and weeks to come?

ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS & ECONOMICS REPORTER: Well, what America has done is effectively upended the global trading order as we know it. I mean,

you saw some of the stats there. You've got 39 percent tariff on Switzerland, 50 percent on Brazil. Now, of course, percent is talking about

how this might cause an economic boom.

He said that -- or the Trump administration has said that since April, $100 billion in tax imports revenues has been collected. So that's obviously a

very healthy number there. But then the longer-term impact could be higher prices on shelves, we've seen Walmart and Procter & Gamble warn of this, as

well as signs that jobs are slowing because of the uncertainty around tariffs.

Is this causing businesses in the U.S. to slow hiring? So, the full impact of this, the longer-term impact of this isn't quite yet known. But I think

what is interesting is, and perhaps a bit surprising is a conversation I had with the CEO of A.P. Moller-Maersk. This is a major global shipping

company. He had this to say about the impact on the global trading system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VINCENT CLERC, CEO, A.P. MOLLER-MAERSK: We seem to have entered now a new phase of globalization pushed by China. And what is going to be interesting

to see in the coming quarters or years is whether there is a response to that from some of the countries in terms of protectionism, or whether this

is going to continue and be a major trend for the industry for the years to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:25:00]

COOBAN: So, essentially, what he's saying there is that Trump's tariffs, the protectionist mindset that America is now adopting could actually spur,

perhaps ironically, a new wave of globalization, but one that's being led by China.

JIMENEZ: Anna Cooban, appreciate it, dynamic -- many dynamics to watch. Thank you for the reporting. All right, meanwhile, President Donald Trump

wants a new U.S. census count, one that will not include people living in the U.S. illegally. On social media, the President said he's instructed the

Department of Commerce to begin work on this.

And traditionally, the survey counts the population in each state, regardless of immigration status. The census data is then used to determine

congressional representation, which has been a point of contention by the Trump administration currently trying to be influenced in the state of

Texas.

But the constitution mandates a national census every ten years based on, quote, "the whole number of free persons, and not just citizens." The next

frontier as I talked about in the escalating Texas redistricting fight, might be Indiana as U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance is there meeting with

the governor and other state leaders in a push to redraw Indiana's political map.

We've seen a similar push, as I mentioned, in the state of Texas, but redrawing in a way that would make it more favorable to Republicans. As for

the ongoing battle in Texas, Governor Greg Abbott has asked the state supreme court to decide in the next few hours whether he can remove

Democrats from their seats for leaving Texas to stop this vote from going through.

The state's Attorney General says Democrats have until Friday to return or he will declare their seats vacant. Still to come tonight, a crucial

meeting between the Presidents of Russia, Ukraine and the United States could be in the works, though they will have to overcome some major

diplomatic hurdles. We'll talk more about it coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:00]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back, everyone. There are signs that a summit between the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, and the United States is possible. Ukrainian

president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy is leaving the door open for a meeting like that. He says Russia appears, quote, "more inclined toward a ceasefire."

At the same time, President Zelenskyy is keeping his guard up against possible deception, and it comes as Russia launches a new bid to exert

control over the southern Ukrainian City of Kherson. Nick Paton Walsh has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Russia is moving to cut off and cut up the city of Kherson, claiming its drones would hit all cars on this road into a city occupied

from above where Russian attack drones haunt your every move.

WALSH: Incredible damage being done to the city, clearly Russia trying to force normal life out of there and even as large-ditch peace talks are

happening in Moscow, drones circulating around ordinary people trying to live here.

WALSH (voice-over): But this weekend the occupier went further still, moving to split the city in two, trying to cut off its southern island

still home to about 2000 people by blowing the bridge. Drone footage caught the moment but it was only partially successful, shredding nerves as much

as concrete and sparking a sudden evacuation effort during which oddly the Russians seem to be letting hundreds of civilians out.

WALSH: And there seems to be some kind of pause in drone activity from what we can make out enabling some of these evacuations.

PATON WALSH (through translator): Are you happy you left?

NADIYA, KHERSON EVACUEE (through translator): Of course, they are shelling so hard since morning. When is all of this going to end?

We've already been crazy by all this. When will they ever come to their senses? Causing such horror, killing everyone for "peace". When is Trump

going to come, or anyone? At our age we don't deserve this.

WALSH (voice-over): They lived alone with almost nothing, so have even less to go to.

NINA, KHERSON EVACUEE (through translator): I am so tired of the shelling, my nerves can't take it anymore. There is no plan, I will live where they

put me. I am one leg, on a crutch.

WALSH (voice-over): 925 evacuated end Wednesday, but don't try suggesting here this is Russian mercy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They absolutely do not care what the targets are. Talking about humanity from the Russians is absolutely

pointless.

WALSH (voice-over): Russian drone operators post images of their hunting people in the city. The gaudy music as if it is sport. Wherever we go,

anxiety, our cameras might reveal locations to the Russians, especially at this hospital.

Three injured from drones and shelling already and two more once we leave. Oleh, 62, ran outside to help after one drone blast that was hit by a

second.

OLEH, KHERSON RESIDENT (through translator): Another one came flying, I couldn't even notice where it came from. I fell behind the fence. But I

didn't swing my legs over, they stayed outside. My torso was hidden, and that's when it hit my legs.

WALSH (voice-over): But many are stuck here, unable to fend for themselves.

WALSH: Because on release at home. So, there are three drones over the hospital.

WALSH (voice-over): The buzz and gunfire we heard outside moments earlier, just how life is here.

WALSH: The all clear is being given after the three drones overhead and now we have to go quickly.

WALSH (voice-over): Hours after we leave, the city and island are hit hard. Russian bloggers giving all civilians a week to leave the island.

Talk of mercy here, short-lived, short-sighted too.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kherson, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: The stakes here laid out by Nick Paton Walsh there. Thank you for that reporting. The question remains, can U.S. President Donald Trump

accomplish a seemingly impossible task, achieve lasting peace between Russia and Ukraine?

[14:35:00]

The White House says President Trump intends to meet face-to-face with his Ukrainian and Russian counterparts as early as next week. While a major sit

down like that would normally take more time to plan, officials note the U.S. president is urging his team to move fast. Russian President Vladimir

Putin also says he's open to meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy if certain conditions are met.

My next guest is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, Charles Kupchan joins us now from Washington. Thank you for taking the

time.

Even in the possibility of this meeting, we're already seeing a few mixed signals. The Kremlin saying it could happen as soon as next week with

preparations underway. Sources tell CNN President Trump told European leaders he intends to meet with both Putin and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Russia

now appears to be saying certain conditions must be met if that were to happen. What is top of mind for you when it comes to a potential meeting

between these two or three leaders that needs to immediately get done if this becomes a reality?

CHARLES KUPCHAN, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT GEORGETOWN AND SENIOR FELLOW AT COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, those sorts of mixed

signals and the confusion about what's going on here is par for the course. Because from the very beginning, I would give Trump credit for reaching out

to Putin to trying to end a war that Ukraine won't win. But there hasn't been a real strategy from the get-go.

And so, far we've had five phone calls between Putin and Trump. We've had multiple visits of Witkoff to the Kremlin. We'd have meetings between

Russian officials and American officials in the Middle East. What do we have to show for it? Nothing. The Russians have yet to demonstrate that

they're negotiating in good faith on a nightly basis. They launched drones and missiles against Ukraine.

So, I'm hoping that in the visit that took place a few days ago of Witkoff with Mr. Putin, Witkoff made some progress. Witkoff has some reason to

believe that if Trump sits down with Putin, the Russians will be ready to compromise, but we don't yet have an indication that that's the case. Both

sides need to do more homework before this kind of meeting can be productive.

JIMENEZ: And this was special Envoy, Steve Witkoff's fifth time visiting Russia this year. This most recently meeting with Putin. I guess at a basic

level, is there anything substantial you expect a Trump-Putin meeting or a Trump-Putin-Zelenskyy meeting at that high-level principle level would be

able to get done that Witkoff's visits to this point might not have been able to?

KUPCHAN: Well, I think Trump has to be very careful about giving Putin a meeting with the American president. That is a big win for Putin. In many

respects, one of the things that Trump can give Putin is sitting at the table with the big boys, coming back in from the cold, rehabilitation of

sorts. And to give Putin that kind of reward, you have to have Putin ready to pay a high price.

And I'm really looking at one issue that has yet to be clarified. The ceasefire in place makes sense. Russia holding on to the 20 percent of

Ukraine that it occupies makes sense, because Ukraine doesn't have the military capability to kick them out. But what about that 80 percent of

Ukraine that is still Ukraine? Is Putin ready to accept a Ukraine that is free, that is sovereign, that is independent, that is secure? If he's not

ready for that outcome and he thinks he can keep his thumb on Kyiv and install in Kyiv a pro-Russian regime, we're not even close to getting a

deal.

And so far, we just haven't seen signs that Putin is ready to walk back from the Maximalist war aims of pulling Ukraine back into Russia's sphere

of influence.

JIMENEZ: And that, of course, has been one issue that has been really the stalemate is Ukraine has said that giving up that territory is a non-

starter. At what point will that dynamic change potentially in the context of a talk like this?

I want to bring up secondary tariffs, because obviously President Trump has imposed steep tariffs on a number of countries, but India already facing a

new 25 percent tariff in effect today, is being threatened with another 25 percent later this month as punishment for importing Russian oil and gas.

U.S. sanctions or penalties directly on Russia ahead. Pretty common at this point, not something that is unusual for them. But do you think punishing

their trading partners will actually have any substantial impact?

KUPCHAN: No, I think it's a mistake. And we've already seen Prime Minister Modi push back. Now, there's talk of a meeting between Modi and potentially

the Chinese head and potentially Mr. Putin. So, it's in some ways pushing the Indians away from us. You're getting the same thing from Brazil where

Trump has imposed 50 percent tariffs, and the Brazilians are now sort of siding with the Indians and the Chinese and the Russians.

[14:40:00]

So, yes, I understand the impulse to try to strangle the Russian economy, but we're pushing democracies away from the United States, and frankly, I

don't think this going to work. The weakest link in American policy has been the sanctions. And that's because the Russians have other countries

that will buy their oil, that will trade with them.

In the end of the day, it's going to take American and European weapons flowing to Ukraine, giving Ukraine what it needs to block Putin to get

Putin to stop. I think Putin will stop when he is stopped by military force.

JIMENEZ: And you know, I you talked about one of the risks of President Trump securing a meeting with Putin, bringing him back in from the cold, so

to speak. One of the things that's upset President Trump is that he felt, at points, in this war that he could trust Putin that he wanted peace here

and got visibly upset when Russia continued to strike Ukrainian cities through drone and missile strikes. How do you get around that dynamic and

believe him now when the president clearly believed Putin months ago?

KUPCHAN: Yes. I have to say I'm a bit surprised by this announcement of a face-to-face meeting between Trump and Putin. Because if you look at

Trump's direction of travel over the last four to six weeks, it's clearly away from Putin. I think Trump felt played by Putin, and he was played by

Putin. They'd have nice conversations. Trump would put down the phone, Putin would put down the phone and he'd launch weapons, 600 drones against

Ukraine. And Trump finally said, hey, I'm being played for the fool here.

And then he pivoted. And he said, sanctions on Russia. I'm going to stand by my friends in Europe. I'm going to sell more weapons to Ukraine via

Europe. And now, all of a sudden, he seems to be pivoting back. It's classic Trump, right? He blows with the wind. But hopefully, this a meeting

that is going to be well prepared because he has to exact concessions from Putin. Otherwise, I think Putin is just going to keep taking these

conversations to the bank and keep going after victory in Ukraine.

JIMENEZ: Quoting President Trump out of a cabinet meeting on Putin, "He's very nice all of the time, but it turns out to be meaningless." We will see

if that changes, if this meeting becomes any sort of reality. Charles Kupchan, appreciate you being here.

KUPCHAN: Good to be with you.

JIMENEZ: All right. Still to come tonight, a worsening public health crisis in Sudan as war and mass displacement drive a surge in cholera. I'll

speak with an operations and advocacy director for the United Nations who's on the ground. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:45:00]

JIMENEZ: Turning now to what the United Nations calls a deepening catastrophe in Sudan. Cholera is ripping through the war-torn country.

These patients are being treated at a makeshift clinic in the town of Tawila in North Darfur.

Now, the country is in the throes of its rainy season, which is contributing to the outbreak in tandem with poor living conditions and a

lack of sanitation. The conflict between the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces, RSF as they're known, and the Sudanese army broke out in April,

2023 when the former allies clashed over plans to integrate their troops. Since then, more than 12 million people have been forced to flee. That

includes at least 7 million people who are internally displaced as well as others who have sought refuge in neighboring countries. The International

Criminal Court has said it believes war crimes and crimes against humanity are happening in Sudan's Darfur region.

I want to bring in Edem Wosornu. She is the operations and advocacy director at the U.N.'s office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs.

She's on the ground in Sudan right now. Thank you for taking the time. Can you just describe for our audience what you have witnessed on the ground in

Sudan?

EDEM WOSORNU, OPERATIONS AND ADVOCACY DIRECTOR, U.N. OCHA AND U.N. OFFICE FOR THE COORDINATION OF HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS: Thank you so much, and thank

you to CNN for having me on this session and for highlighting the plight of the people of Sudan. You've highlighted some of the numbers, but let me

share what I saw firsthand in Khartoum, the capital of Sudan. Our first visit as the office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs since we

had to leave the capital at the start of the conflict, April, 2023.

I lived in Sudan. I was there for three years in Khartoum, in Darfur, in the east, in Kassala, and various locations, and I returned to a ghost

town, a ghost city, a city actually decimated, devastated, destroyed, looted, burned. What we see on the screens does not describe the horrors

myself and my colleagues, our Sudanese colleagues, some from Omdurman, some from Khartoum, saw this firsthand, their homes destroyed.

We were also able to drive, when we're moving around to meetings to our office, the U.N. offices across the city burnt, looted, and I saw our

office completely devastated. A car seat in the grass somewhere, a mug -- a complete destruction of United Nations, property of civilian assets.

I also -- we couldn't get into the building because it had not been cleared yet by the United Nations Mine Action Service, who have gone office to

office clearing these offices of unexploded ordinances, remnants of war.

I heard harrowing stories from the colleagues who had stayed. I also was able to speak to our heroic Sudanese health workers, Sudanese humanitarian

workers who stayed through the crisis and those who returned as soon as they could. I spoke to health workers, humanitarian workers who had been

themselves displaced several times, at least seven times by one NGO worker, and at least five times by one colleague from the United Nations.

I saw things that I never imagined I would see. And let's not forget Khartoum was a buzzing city. This a place we all knew the Hilton Hotel

burned to a crisp. This where we went to have a bit of respite. Those of us who were coming from Darfur war 20 years ago. Sudan is not what it is

today. I am celebrating the humanitarian workers with a smile on my face because I am humbled by what I saw, what they were able to do.

You talked about cholera, we were able to visit a Save the Children and local NGO Center working with ministry of health at the height of the

cholera response. They were seeing 350 patients a day. And two days ago, when I was in Khartoum and on (INAUDIBLE) they had those one patient left.

They were able to save over 3,500 lives, 62 lost to cholera.

Let's not forget some of these fled the crisis, went back home. Part of the 1.3 million people returned and succumbed to cholera because of what you

mentioned earlier, lack of basic services.

[14:50:00]

JIMENEZ: And, Edem, I don't want to cut you off there, but I just want to ask you because, you know, one recent article in The Atlantic called this

the most nihilistic conflict on Earth, and we talked about some of the eye- opening statistics. You mentioned some of them millions have been displaced by years of fighting more than Ukraine and Gaza combined, about 14 million

people have been displaced, over a hundred thousand people have died, likely a significant undercounting there. And by the World Food Programme

estimates nearly half of the 25 million people expected to go hungry this year.

Do you believe the world is paying enough attention to what's happening in Sudan?

WOSORNU: Thank you for that question. Actually, I'm grateful for CNN to air this, but I don't think so. I've been doing this for almost a quarter

of a century, 24 years with the United Nations humanitarian arm, and I have not seen a conflict so neglected.

If you are watching the news today, Sudan needs your help. The Sudanese people, the generous people of Sudan, the average man and woman, the child

needs your help and needs your attention. But the answer is no. I think a lot more can be done.

If I may talk about World Food Programme's ability to reach people, they've reached millions of people with food aid when they have access. We have

convoys and trucks, UNICEF, WFP, International Organization for Migration, United Nations population fund and NGO trucks waiting outside the besieged

el-Fasher to try and get him to assist people.

You talked about famine, Zamzam Camp has famine conditions, and you saw the media yesterday, a year of declaration of famine. The world is not paying

enough attention to Sudan. The people of Sudan deserve a lot. Let's not forget, Sudan produce doctors, surgeons, teachers, lawyers, Sudan, Khartoum

University, on (INAUDIBLE) University full of students with hope. Today, we saw some returning when I was in Khartoum, but Sudan needs the world's

attention. Thank you so much for spotlighting Sudan in this episode.

JIMENEZ: And Sudan has produced people like yourself who have come back to try and help the population currently experiencing unimaginable situations

right now. Edem Wosornu, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for being here.

WOSORNU: Thank you.

JIMENEZ: Much more to come after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:55:00]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back. I'm not going to fully judge you. I don't fully know you. I'm in here, you're out there. I don't know your dancing

abilities, but cockatoos might have more dance moves than you. These lively parrots are known for getting down, dancing around. Look at that head bob,

that's some serious stuff. And through social media, look, I can see where they're learning it from. Social media researchers decided to take a closer

look. They actually identified 30 distinct dance moves by cockatoos, 17 of which had not been described scientifically before. How can you

scientifically describe rhythm like that?

The birds are known to dance to music in captivity, but we still don't know why outside of just catching a beat every once in a while. The one you're

seeing now, dancing to Lady Gaga and Tommy Tutone in case you're wondering. But, honestly, we'd be doing the exact same thing.

And finally, tonight, the Latino musician -- the first Latino musician, as we talk about music and as we talk about honoring people in this genre, the

first Latino musician to win a Grammy has passed away. Eddie Palmieri was known as an innovative musician, and Roomba and Latin jazz. Cockatoos would

likely be dancing to the music that he brought so many people for decades.

Born in New York, Spanish Harlem, he went on to become a pianist, composer, and band leader. He was the first Latino to win a Grammy in 1975 and would

go on to win seven more. In 2005, he became the host of Caliente on National Public Radio. His daughter told The New York Times, he died in New

Jersey after an extended illness.

And thank you all for watching tonight. Stay with CNN. A lot of news to cover. "What We Know with Max Foster" up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:00]

END