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Isa Soares Tonight

Trump and Putin to Meet Once Again in Hungary; Nicolas Maduro Says No to Regime Change; John Bolton Faces Potential Charges As Prosecutors Expected to Seek a Grand Jury Indictment; Israel Shares Information on Location of Deceased Hostages in Gaza; European Officials Say Russia Behind Drone Sightings; New Report on Abuse in the Catholic Church. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired October 16, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST,: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin to meet

once again. The U.S. and Russian leaders are set for talks in Hungary as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy heads to the White House.

We are live in Washington for you with all the details. Meanwhile, President Nicolas Maduro says no to regime change as it's confirmed the CIA

are authorized to operate in Venezuela. We'll speak to Mr. Trump's former special representative to the country. Plus, Trump adviser turned-critic

John Bolton facing potential charges.

Prosecutors expected to seek a grand jury indictment. We'll bring you all the latest on that. But first, tonight, as Ukraine's President Volodymyr

Zelenskyy again heads to Washington, U.S. President Donald Trump says he will be meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Hungary.

And the announcement came after what Mr. Trump called a lengthy conversation today with the Russian leader. There's been no apparent date

set for the Budapest Summit. Mr. Zelenskyy, who was scheduled, of course, to be at the White House on Friday, is expected to push for additional

long-range weapons.

Sources tell CNN, the U.S. has been sharing Intel with Kyiv on striking targets deeper inside Russian territory. That would be an apparent shift in

policy, that both the U.S. and Ukraine hope will restart negotiations with Moscow. That is according to sources. The renewed efforts by the White

House came as the European Union, as we've been discussing, is scrambling to develop a drone wall to counter airspace incursions by Russia.

You heard my conversation with the Defense Minister of Norway this time yesterday. But a draft of the defense policy shows it may not be fully

operational until next year. Betsy Klein joins me now from the White House. So, Betsy, bring us up-to-date with how that conversation went. We know it

was productive. What came out of it?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, Isa, President Trump described that call with Russia's President Vladimir Putin as very

productive. He said that he discussed a future of U.S.-Russia trade relations as well as returning some of those abducted Ukrainian children to

Ukraine as well as peace in the Middle East.

He said that is something that could help grease the wheels for negotiations to end this conflict. But notably, some news about next steps.

The President saying in a post to Truth Social, quote, "at the conclusion of the call, we agreed that there will be a meeting of our high level

advisors next week."

The United States' initial meetings will be led by Secretary of State Marco Rubio, together with various other people, to be designated. A meeting

location is to be determined. President Putin and I will then meet in an agreed-upon location, Budapest, Hungary, to see if we can bring this

inglorious war between Russia and Ukraine to an end.

Now, notably, President Trump did not say when that meeting in Hungary would take place. But of course, this comes just two months after he met

with Putin in Alaska for that key critical summit. And President Trump has become increasingly frustrated with Putin by the lack of progress in these

negotiations. The lack of momentum that has really, clearly stalled since that August 15th meeting. Isa.

SOARES: Look, and the concern, I think, Betsy, with this call is that the President tends to react, Betsy, to whomever he has last spoken to, in this

case has been President Putin. I wonder whether that may not favor President Zelenskyy, who of course, is going to the White House tomorrow.

We have seen further strikes, major strikes, I should say, in Ukraine, both in Sumy and in Kyiv. And we have heard pressure, not just from European

allies, but also from President Zelenskyy for these Tomahawk missiles. I want to play what the President said on this. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I might say, look, if this war is not going to get settled, I'm going to send them Tomahawks. I may

send them. A Tomahawk is an incredible weapon, a very offensive weapon. And honestly, Russia does not need that. They don't need that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: What is your sense, Betsy, from the conversations that you're having and whether President Trump is prepared to go there, because we

heard Secretary Hegseth just in the last few days showing support to European allies.

[14:05:00]

KLEIN: Well, he's certainly making that case publicly, as we have seen Russian President Putin really push the boundaries in recent weeks with

those strikes, as you mentioned, as well as those Russian aircraft incursions into countries like Estonia and Poland in recent weeks. So,

President Trump really looking for ways to up the pressure on Putin here.

We saw that as he called on NATO countries to stop buying Russian oil products or risk sanctions from the U.S. We also saw that as the U.S. has

increased Intelligence-sharing with Ukraine, including more information about targets inside Russia, that include energy infrastructure,

facilities, plants, things like that in recent weeks.

We have also learned that President Trump, both publicly and privately is very seriously weighing the possibility of the U.S. sending those long-

range Tomahawk missiles to Russia. That is of major concern for Russia. It would be a major escalation because they have a range of about 1,500 miles

and can be quite lethal.

So, the President did not mention that in the readout of his call with Russian President Vladimir Putin. It's unclear if it came up. We're going

to hear from him in the next hour or so, we'll see if we get an update on that --

SOARES: Yes, and see if we get a readout as well from the Kremlin, see how President Putin, how productive the meeting was on his end. Betsy, great to

see you. Thank you very much indeed. And do stay tuned, a little later in the show, we'll take a look at the investigation into mysterious drone

sightings right across Europe.

You know, we have seen drones sightings in Poland and Estonia, that we have covered a great length here on the show. President Putin denies Russia is

behind it, but other officials aren't so sure. We'll have an exclusive report coming out in about 20 minutes or so. Well, President Trump is

escalating his pressure campaign against Venezuela, confirming he authorized the CIA to conduct covert operations inside the nation, and

warning ground attacks may be next.

It is part of what the President says is his battle to curb the flow of drugs and clamp down on migration. But he stopped short of saying whether

the CIA has the power to remove Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. Venezuela has clapped back, condemning Mr. Trump's comments as, quote,

"warmongering". Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLAS MADURO, PRESIDENT, VENEZUELA (through translator): No to regime change, which reminds us so much of the endless failed wars in Afghanistan,

Iraq, Libya and so on. No to CIA-orchestrated coup d'etat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: And it comes amid a string, of course, of lethal strikes in the Caribbean by the U.S. on alleged drug trafficking boats. Although, the

White House has not provided any proof, the five known attacks have killed at least 27 people. And despite a looming confrontation between Washington

and Caracas, Venezuela is not considered a cocaine-producing country by the U.N. office on drugs and crime.

In fact, investigators from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency reached a similar conclusion, writing in their annual report that 84 percent of the

cocaine seized in the U.S. comes from neighboring Venezuela, Colombia. Let's get more, Natasha Bertrand is following developments for us from

Washington.

And Natasha, these -- from what I understand on the CIA, these were authorization, and you can clear up if I'm wrong here. These were

authorizations the President gave the CIA earlier this year, right? But do we know exactly what these authorizations include? In other words, is the

CIA being told, hey, go after Maduro, seek regime change, or is this about combating the flow of drugs into the U.S.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No, Isa, that's the really key question here. I would imagine, based on our reporting that the

authorization for CIA operating in Latin America to include Venezuela is actually fairly broad. But the key question here, when it comes to inside

Venezuela itself is, are the CIA taskings really directed at getting Maduro out of power.

For example, regime change activities are -- or are they going to be more narrowly focused on attacking cartels and drug labs and things like that,

that really get at the heart of the U.S. is kind of counter-narcotics campaign, that it has said that it is fighting in order to stop the flow of

drugs coming into the United States.

We simply don't know. But we know at this point that the CIA authorization was granted by President Trump earlier this year. At the same time that he

gave the U.S. military, those new authorities to go after counter-narcotics in the region as well. And so, this was kind of all one fell-swoop as part

of this broader campaign in the region.

But we do know that the President has not taken, you know, these kinds of regime change activities off the table. He said yesterday that he was not

going to answer a question from a reporter about whether or not the CIA is going to be authorized to carry out some kind of action that might lead to

Maduro's removal.

[14:10:00]

However, we are told that the CIA is authorized now to carry out lethal activities, lethal targeting. So, the question is, how far is that going to

go? Is -- are we going to hearken back to the long history of CIA regime change activities in Latin America? Or is this going to be more narrowly

focused on drug cartels? That is the big question at this point. Isa.

SOARES: Yes, and look, this authorization would normally, of course, happen behind the scenes wouldn't -- we wouldn't be informed about it, right? This

is covert. It would be highly classified. So, really, what is at play here? I mean, how much is this simply to rattle Maduro? How effective does the

administration think it can be just by, you know, imposing itself in this way.

BERTRAND: Yes, look, I mean, I think a lot of what the U.S. military anyway has been doing down near Venezuela has been a lot of show of force. For

example, we saw the B-52 bombers that were flying off the coast of Venezuela just yesterday. We have seen training exercises being carried out

by the U.S. military right off the coast of Venezuela that have been very well publicized.

They're not trying to hide their presence there. Now, you have the President coming out and saying, look, I have authorized the CIA to

actually act inside Venezuela itself, which is going to increase the sense of paranoia among Maduro and his -- and his aides there. And so, you have

to think that part of this is definitely a psychological operation to put pressure.

But again, the CIA does now have these expanded capabilities. This expanded authorization, and it is unlikely that they are not going to take advantage

of that in some way.

SOARES: Yes --

BERTRAND: So --

SOARES: Natasha, appreciate it, thank you very much indeed. Let's stay on this story. My next guest served as the U.S. Special Representative for

Venezuela and Iran during President Trump's first term. Elliott Abrams joins the show live from Washington D.C. Mr. Abrams, great to have you on

the show.

As you heard there from my colleague, Natasha, tensions clearly ramping up between the United States and Venezuela. You know the country well. You

were appointed special envoy to Venezuela in -- by President Trump, I believe, in his first term. What do you make of this pressure --

ELLIOTT ABRAMS, LAWYER & FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR VENEZUELA & IRAN: Right --

SOARES: Campaign, sir, from the U.S. this time around? Do you think it can be effective or as Natasha was saying, is this just a show of force?

ABRAMS: I think one of you used the term psychological operation, and I think that's right. I think it is a show of force to help along pressure

campaign against Maduro. The military presence in the Caribbean is too big for just hitting a few speedboats, though it is not big enough for an

invasion of Venezuela.

So, what's in the middle? What's in the middle, I think is a pressure campaign meant to rattle Venezuela and the Venezuelan regime, meant to

rattle the Venezuelan military, and maybe crack the regime and see if it will finally fall. And I do think there will be strikes closer to Venezuela

within the 3-mile limit, and perhaps on land as well.

SOARES: You see, then, you -- strikes in the -- in Venezuela in the coming weeks. And I mean, the aim to crack the regime to dislodge Maduro. But you

don't think this is about narco-trafficking at all?

ABRAMS: It is about narco-trafficking. And the boats that were hit, you know, there weren't tourist boats. I mean, it's reasonable to think they

were narcotics trafficking boats. And I think the targets, if they are hit in Venezuela, will be things like airstrips where little planes go off

carrying drugs or the same kind of boats, but in ports in Venezuela.

So, it is about narcotics trafficking, but the President seems to have taken the view that it would be good to get rid of this regime, that it's a

criminal regime. He's used the word terrorism now, this is more than he ever said in the first term. So, I think the -- you know, the ambitions

have grown larger here.

And it's a reasonable bet, that maybe the regime will crack if enough pressure is brought to bear, if enough Venezuelans in the regime or in the

military think, you know, I don't want to be the next Noriega or the next Bashar al-Assad. Let me get out now.

SOARES: It would be interesting to see if it does happen right internally within Maduro's kind of inner circle, because we have seen pressure before,

perhaps not this kind of pressure, to be completely frank in terms of military build-up and strikes on drug boats. But you know --

ABRAMS: Yes --

SOARES: We saw a pressure from President Trump, you and I have spoken before, you know, when it was Juan Guaido was really the one that was

trying to dislodge Maduro. So, what is different this time around? What do you think can be more effective this time around?

ABRAMS: Guaido had been the speaker of the National Assembly. And the presidency, we thought was vacant because Maduro had stolen the election,

this time, there was an election. There's a real --

SOARES: Yes --

ABRAMS: Elected President, Edmundo Gonzalez, who just about every democracy in the world agrees was actually elected President of Venezuela.

[14:15:00]

So, there is somebody who could take power, who we all believe should be in the -- in the presidential mansion in Venezuela. And the second thing is

that this combination of drug questions and migration questions is bigger for the President than it was in his first term. He never did anything like

this show of force in his first term.

SOARES: And you would have heard then, I'm guessing, given you know what we -- I wonder what you think might happen in the coming weeks, because, of

course, you heard Natasha talking about the President giving authorization to the CIA to operate in --

ABRAMS: Right --

SOARES: Venezuela, right? But the CIA's record really, in Latin America has been somewhat mixed. Whether it's Nicaragua, Chile, just to name a few.

What would that look like you think? And I mean, do we honestly think that Maduro doesn't know CIA operates inside the country? Surely, we know that.

ABRAMS: I think one thing is, the CIA operations don't have to be lethal or paramilitary operations. The President may say to them, I want you to

contact every Venezuelan military officer you can clandestinely and see if some of them are willing to rise up against Maduro. So, this doesn't have

to be shooting. But I would say one other thing about timing.

You asked about that. You can't leave that flotilla in the Caribbean month- after-month-after-month. Those ships and those people have other things to do as well. So, I think, you know, if he doesn't take action in --

SOARES: Oh, we seem to -- we seem to have lost you, and I wanted to hear answer because I think Mr. Abrams was giving us a sense of how soon he

thinks any sort of action could happen, of course. Mr. Abrams, I think you're still with us. We lost you just at the point --

ABRAMS: Yes --

SOARES: Where you were about --

ABRAMS: Yes --

SOARES: To tell us when you think the timing, when this would happen at the critical point. Just start that sentence, if you don't mind.

ABRAMS: Sorry, you can't leave this flotilla sitting there --

SOARES: Yes --

ABRAMS: Month-after-month-after-month. If the President doesn't do anything in Venezuela in October, it would have to be November. This cannot go into

next year just sitting there, not doing anything.

SOARES: Right, so, we've got a rough idea of time. I then wonder what other countries in the region should be applying pressure here. Yesterday on CNN,

we heard from Maria Corina Machado, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, of course, who won that election with Edmundo Gonzalez as you clearly stated.

And she was asking when she spoke to my colleague, she was asking for other countries to show support for the Venezuelan cause, and to back her. Where

are the other countries? And we saw -- we saw President Petro today kind of distancing himself, of course, from Venezuela because of the CIA

operations. What do you think should happen in the region in terms of showing that support for Machado or against Maduro?

ABRAMS: Right, well, just one point. We don't know if there are, in fact, any CIA operations yet. But I think --

SOARES: Yes --

ABRAMS: Look, there are a number of countries that have been very supportive of the Democratic opposition. Argentina is a good example of

that. There are two big ones that have stayed out of this, and that's Brazil and Mexico. And I think they're going to stay out of it because they

don't want to support Maduro for democratic reasons among others.

And because they don't, they have their own problems with President Trump. They don't need to create new ones. So, I think you will see most Latin

American democracies distancing themselves from Maduro here. In the end, though, it doesn't matter a lot. I think what matters here is, will

President Trump stick with it? How far will he go? And can people be found in the sort of outer circles of the regime or in the military who are

willing to desert Maduro now?

SOARES: Yes, and that has always been the concern. We haven't seen that inner circle crumble. Can this --

ABRAMS: Right --

SOARES: Will this be effective? Elliott Abrams, great to see you, Elliott, thank you very much for coming on the show, appreciate it. Thank you --

ABRAMS: You're welcome.

SOARES: And still to come tonight, sources say the U.S. Justice Department is expected to seek the indictment of Donald Trump's former adviser, John

Bolton. Today, we'll have a live report from Washington on that. And as Gaza lies in ruins, anger grows in Israel over the deceased hostages who

haven't been returned. We have a report for you from Tel Aviv a little later this hour.

[14:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: The U.S. Justice Department is today expected to ask a federal grand jury to indict John Bolton. The U.S. President Donald Trump's former

national security adviser, of course, that is according to multiple sources. Bolton has been under investigation for the alleged unlawful

handling of classified information.

FBI agents searched Bolton's Maryland home and Washington office back in August. According to court records, the agency's multiple documents labeled

secret, confidential and classified, including some about weapons of mass destruction. Our crime and justice correspondent, Katelyn Polantz has been

following this story from Washington, and joins me now.

Katelyn, great to see you, right. So, what would then prosecutors be looking for here? What kind of charges possibly will you be looking at?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, we seem to be at the end of the looking phase. We now know that there is a top

prosecutor on this case at the courthouse in Maryland today. We understand the grand jury has been assembled there. And we know that there has been a

long investigation into John Bolton and his handling or potential mishandling of classified information, national defense information.

The reason we know this is because his home and his office were searched just two months ago, and in that search, agents removed all kinds of

electronics, computers, phones, documents with classified markings on them, saying things like secret or classified. And we know that the agents were

looking at a couple different things from the court documents that have been available so far.

In this investigation, Donald Trump has long been unhappy with John Bolton's book in 2020, and that became part of the case. In that book

manuscript, there was a dispute between Bolton and the Trump administration, the first Trump administration, on whether he had

classified information in a manuscript and in a draft of that book initially.

There's another part of this case, though, that is, from what I understand, the driving force of it. It is a look into John Bolton's AOL e-mail

account. In that e-mail account, sources are telling me that Bolton would have been writing summaries to himself, notes, something like a diary, even

at times that would contain potentially classified information.

That would have been when he was serving as national security adviser to Donald Trump. We don't know exactly yet what the grand jury will do, or

exactly what an indictment would look like, if there is one that were to emerge from federal court today.

[14:25:00]

But we are watching to see if this long-time public servant will be charged with a federal crime or potentially more than one federal crime. It is a

very big day in watching the Justice Department, their actions, and also to watch the choices they may make on how they approach Bolton going forward

as a former high ranking government official, how will he be treated in court by the Justice Department?

SOARES: Absolutely, and I wonder if you can widen it out then for our international viewers, because this potential indictment against Bolton

does come at a particularly fraught time for the Justice Department, which has been completely, honestly, been rocked by extraordinary pressure from

President Trump, who seems to be -- has a vendetta here going against former -- pursuing criminal cases against political enemies.

You mentioned Bolton, but of course, there are others, and I think we've got a graphic, if we have it, to show viewers really who he's been going

after. Just add that context that -- there we go. We see Letitia James, James Comey also being indicted, Jack Smith. Speak to the wider pressure

here.

POLANTZ: Yes, so, there is a moment right now where Donald Trump has in the past and also currently said he wants his political foes to be charged with

crimes or to face some sort of justice in his mind. Letitia James, James Comey, they would be -- people in that camp where we know Trump has said

their names, and said they should be facing some sort of charges, and they now do.

Bolton, Trump wanted him to be charged after he released that manuscript in the first Trump presidency, but he hasn't been talking about Bolton lately.

We don't know exactly why, but I can say that from the reporting I've done around this, the understanding here is that, this is a longer investigation

and it's being led by long-time career prosecutors where the political choices are not necessarily what is driving the fact that Bolton is under

investigation, and the possibility that he may be charged.

Some things to keep in mind here, too, as we think about a possible indictment of John Bolton for mishandling of classified information. Trump,

too, was charged with a very similar set of crimes. He did not ultimately go to trial because the judge dismissed it because of prosecutorial

authority.

But this is the sort of case that is significant that the Justice Department takes significantly, and that prosecutors historically have

brought cases like this against high-ranking officials in other administrations, not just Trump. David Petraeus; the former General, he,

too, ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor version of mishandling classified records. And there have been many others in American history.

SOARES: Such important context. Katelyn, appreciate it as always, thank you very much. And still to come tonight, humanitarian groups say not enough

crossings are open to get vital aid into Gaza. Up next, why a member of Israel's parliament says he wants to stop the aid altogether. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. Tonight, growing anger in Israel. The country desperate for the return of all the deceased hostages. Israel says

it's sharing the location of some of the bodies in Gaza with mediators. But Hamas says it has handed back everyone it can access. Nine of the 28 dead

captives have been returned so far.

Egypt's foreign minister says recovering all the hostage remains will take time, because as you're looking at the footage, it's showing footage of the

rubble, all of this is putting more pressure on the Gaza ceasefire deal. A member of Israel's parliament is demanding the government stop all aid

going into Gaza.

Our Jeremy Diamond, says he's hearing aid is getting through despite the dispute over the deceased hostages.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, U.S. and Israeli officials now tell me that Israel is allowing the quantities of aid into

Gaza that are required under this ceasefire agreement, despite this dispute over the number of remains of deceased hostages that Hamas is releasing. We

had been told on Wednesday that Israel was only allowing half the number of aid trucks required into Gaza, just 300 of the 600 required, as a

retaliation for Hamas releasing too few bodies of these deceased hostages. But it turns out that Israel on Wednesday actually allowed some 700 trucks

of aid into Gaza, according to internal numbers from COGAT obtained by CNN.

COGAT is this Israeli authority that coordinates the entry of aid into the Gaza Strip. And so, what we're seeing is that there's a difference between

some of the public rhetoric that is coming out about this ceasefire agreement and the disputes that are happening and the reality that is

actually happening on the ground. That doesn't mean that this ceasefire agreement doesn't remain fragile and quite tenuous. There's no question

that there are some real disagreements here over the number of bodies that Hamas has released from the Gaza Strip.

In fact, Israeli officials have submitted information to the United States about the remains of other deceased hostages that they believe Hamas knows

about, despite the fact that Hamas has said that they have released all of the remains of deceased hostages that they know about or that they can

access.

It seems that it's clear that one of the issues here is Hamas' ability to actually access those remains of deceased hostages in Gaza. And that's why

senior U.S. advisers have told us that they actually believe that Hamas is complying with this ceasefire agreement right now and that conditions on

the ground are making it harder for them to release additional bodies.

There are Turkish and Egyptian teams that are going to be working in Gaza to try and retrieve some of those additional bodies, which appear to be

under the rubble of buildings struck by the Israeli military over the course of this war. And this is not just an issue for the remains of those

deceased hostages. It's also an issue about the bodies of Palestinian civilians, thousands of which are estimated to also be under the rubble in

Gaza. And it underscores the very, very long road ahead for Gaza's recovery and for us to really get a sense of the true death toll of this two-year-

long war.

Now, as it relates to those aid quantities, even as Israel is stepping up the amount of aid getting into Gaza, there's no question that the needs are

enormous, everything from food to shelter to medicine. And it will take weeks, very likely, for the situation in Gaza to stabilize and many

hundreds, thousands even, of aid trucks to enter before that happens.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:35:00]

SOARES: And we're going to leave the war in Gaza for just a moment and turn our attention to another war, and that's the war in Ukraine. U.S. President

Donald Trump has wrapped up a phone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin and says the two leaders will meet in Hungary's capital, Budapest, at

an unspecified date. And the call comes ahead of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's trip to the White House on Friday. That's tomorrow.

As the war in Ukraine rages on, Europe is investigating a spate of drone sightings that we've been reporting on in recent weeks. Many officials

believe Russia is behind the drones. It's an accusation that Moscow denies. Our Katie Polglase investigates the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (voice-over): From Norway to Romania, lately drones have been spotted over key civilian and military

sites in Europe. Many suspect Russia is behind it.

BORIS PISTORIUS, GERMAN DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): The suspicion is obvious. This is part of Vladimir Putin's strategy.

POLGLASE (voice-over): But suspecting Russia is a lot easier than proving it. CNN has now looked into these drone incidents, examining shipping

routes, flight data and speaking to Western intelligence sources, and found that while in some cases hard evidence was left on the ground, found here

in Poland. In other cases, like Denmark, it left only mystery and confusion.

POLGLASE: For these murkier cases, intelligence sources do keep mentioning one theory, that Russia's shadow fleet, this secretive grouping of boats

sailing around Europe, evading Western sanctions, could be involved, although there is no proof.

POLGLASE (voice-over): Let's look at the incident over Copenhagen Airport, Denmark, on September 22nd. Police said they were investigating the

presence of ships in the area from which the drones may have launched or landed. Indeed, two Russian-linked ships under Western sanctions were in

the area at the time and have been caught up in the mystery.

This one, 60 miles away from the airport, sanctioned by the U.S., has a highly erratic route leading up to the incident and then afterwards sails

on to St. Petersburg, Russia. Then this ship sails all around the coast of Denmark, passing several other airports and military installations where

drones were sighted. A French defense source said that this route could be viewed as suspicious, but it's difficult to draw definitive conclusions at

this stage.

It was then detained by French authorities on maritime offences, suspected of being part of Russia's Shadow Fleet. They found no evidence of drone

operations, a French defense source said, but added even if the vessel had been used as a launch platform, it's plausible nothing would be detectable.

CNN was unable to reach the management company of either ship for comment for this. Western authorities are clearly closely monitoring Russia's

fleet. Air traffic data shows American and British military aircraft circling close to Kaliningrad, a key Russian military hub and port, in the

days after Denmark's drone sightings. But so far, authorities are staying tight-lipped about their findings.

The Kremlin has said the allegation that they launched drones over Denmark is unfounded. Russian President Vladimir Putin even joking about the claims

in an interview in the weeks after.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Vladimir Vladimirovich, why are you sending so many drones to Denmark?

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I won't anymore. I won't anymore. Not to France, not to Denmark, not to Copenhagen. Where else

are they flying to?

POLGLASE (voice-over): We spoke to a former member of Danish intelligence, who said authorities have good reason to scrutinize these ships.

POLGLASE: Do you think the Danish authorities would be looking into these ships?

JACOB KAARSBO, FORMER CHIEF ANALYST, DANISH DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE SERVICE: Well, I suspect they are investigating and tracking and see what they can

dig out, because all these ships have displayed some suspect maneuvers and tendencies. So, I think it would be odd if they didn't try to pursue and

investigate these ships and see.

POLGLASE (voice-over): Russia has been increasingly suspected of launching drones over Europe since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Many flew over

places of strategic significance. In September and October 2022, drones flew over Norwegian energy installations here. In August and December 2024,

drones were sighted over German military sites.

It's still unclear who sent the drones. But what is clear is that Europe urgently needs better equipment to track them, with Denmark now installing

this drone radar equipment at Copenhagen airport.

Katie Polglase, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: And our thanks to Katie for that report. And still to come tonight, better support for abuse victims and accountability for the leaders

involved. That's what a new Vatican report is calling for from the Catholic Church. We'll bring you the very latest next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:00]

SOARES: Well, a new report is calling out Catholic church leaders saying they must do more to help sexual abuse survivors and for bishops to be held

accountable. The 200-page document is the first report to be released since Pope Leo XIV was elected earlier this year.

Joining me now in the studio is CNN's Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb. So, Christopher, give us a sense of what exactly this 200-page report

actually says. What is the message here?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the message is that the Catholic church has two big challenges when it comes to abuse. One is to

better respond to victims and survivors. Of course, abuse is a trauma that survivors carry throughout their lives, and the report is calling for more

action on that.

The second is greater accountability of -- for bishops and church leaders. It's calling on the Vatican to release publicly why bishops are sometimes

removed if they've been removed for abuse, negligence, because at the moment that doesn't happen. So, it's those two things, accountability and

greater support for victims and survivors.

SOARES: And the first report, of course, that we said that's been released since Pope Leo was elected, how -- what are we likely to see from him under

his leadership, of course, and his guidance in terms of reform here, in terms of changes to this?

LAMB: Well, today the leaders, one of the leaders of the commission, said that the pope has a very analytical approach to this matter. I think we're

going to get someone who's very attentive to the details of getting the process right in tackling abuse, to be very attentive to victims and

survivors. He's had experience of dealing with abuse scandals in Peru.

So, he is someone who comes to this with experience. And, of course, he is the first American pope, and he is aware of how serious and how terrible

these abuse scandals have been.

SOARES: Has he addressed abuse scandals prior to this? I'm just trying to hark back from what we've heard from him. I don't think I've heard him, but

obviously you know.

LAMB: Well, he has spoken about it since his election, about the importance of getting a culture of tackling abuse. He dealt with a very serious abuse

crisis in Peru, which involved a group that was very powerful, that was riddled with abuse allegations, and he took very tough action against them.

So, he has got experience of dealing with this.

SOARES: OK. Let's see what comes out of this and what change. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

[14:50:00]

And still to come tonight, what if A.I. could read your mind? Laila Lalami joins our book club with her novel "The Dream Hotel," set in a dystopian

world where the protagonist is jailed for her potential to commit a crime. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: Joining us on the book club today is Laila Lalami with "The Dream Hotel." Laila, welcome to the show.

LAILA LALAMI, AUTHOR, "THE DREAM HOTEL": Thank you for having me.

SOARES: Wonderful to have you here. This is a gripping, riveting, pretty unsettling book. I remember messaging my producer, we're both reading at

the same time, and we're like, this is too close to home in many ways.

And this starts -- or it was centered, I should say, on Sara, Sara Hussein, who's a mom of two young children, 19-month-old or 17-month-old children.

And she comes back from a conference in London. She works in a museum. She comes back from a conference in London and she's then stopped and

questioned at Los Angeles airport. Take it away from that. What happens right there? Because that is kind of the crux of the story.

LALAMI: So, she gets pulled aside by agents of the Risk Assessment Administration, and they tell her that her crime risk score is up and is

higher than what's allowed. And the crime risk score is basically, it's basically computed based on all of the different factors in your life,

including your dreams. And in the case of Sara Hussein, her dreams have been used to predict that she will commit a very serious crime.

And so, for her -- for the safety of the potential victim, in this case, her husband, she has to be put under observation for a period of 21 days.

And as the novel opens, we realize she has actually been in this retention center for a lot longer than 21 days. And this is because her crime risk

score is still high. So, she doesn't know how to get out of that place.

SOARES: And just so viewers and listeners understand, she hasn't committed a crime yet.

LALAMI: No.

SOARES: This is simply a risk score. And they know this because Sara agreed to have a device implanted, right, to help, I think, with sleeping.

LALAMI: With sleep. Yes, yes.

SOARES: So, she willingly signed on to this.

LALAMI: Yes.

SOARES: So, her dream -- what data has been monitored from that? Speak to that.

[14:50:00]

LALAMI: Well, so this implant is basically something that I'm an insomniac. So, I've often wondered if there were a device that could help me get some

sleep. Would I get it? And the answer is, yes, probably I would, because there's, you know, we all know what it's like to wake up at three in the

morning and not be able to sleep. And knowing that you have to get up at 6:00 a.m. and get started with your day and you're already exhausted.

So, to have that device, I think, made sense to me in the world of the future, that technology, the way that it's going now, we would one day have

a device that helps us sleep. And Sara Hussein is basically a busy mom of two. She's having trouble getting any sleep at all. And the beauty of this

device is that it allows her to get a full night's rest based on just four hours of actual sleep. So, it's this sort of miraculous sleep aid device,

and she gets it.

And like all of us, when we're confronted with new devices or new applications, we agree to the terms and conditions of service. So, she

doesn't really think that her sleep data is of any use or any interest to anybody. But of course, the corporation that has this -- that markets this

device, turns around and sells that data to various clients, including the government. And that is what starts the sort of dystopian world of this

novel.

SOARES: On the question of, you know, the surveillance aspect of it, did you come up with the idea from your dreams? Because you dream a lot. Where

did this come about? Because this is very Kafkaesque.

LALAMI: Yes, yes, it is. Yes. Well, I mean, so the idea for the book came to me 10 years ago in 2014. I woke up one morning and reached for my phone

to look at the time. And instead, I saw a Google notification that said, if you leave right now, you will make it to the name of my yoga studio at

7:28.

Now, of course, I'd never told Google what day of the week or what time of day or even that I went to yoga. But of course, the company followed my

movements and knew that on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 7:30, I went to yoga and quite helpfully had decided to remind me that I was running late and

needed to get going.

Now, Google has stopped sending these notifications. I suspect it was a product that was still in beta trials. So, they were trying it out and I

think it freaked people out a little too much and then they stopped. But I was just, you know, disturbed by that. And I turned to my husband I said,

you know, the only privacy any of us are going to have left is going to be in our dreams.

And that's where this idea that dreams really are the only place where we are free from that surveillance, where we are free from that pressure to

constantly work and to constantly produce and to constantly, you know, be doing something or posting something for our friends. Dreams are the only

place where we are free of all.

SOARES: Do you think then -- Laila, do you think that we -- as human beings, we care that we are -- that this data is being collected, that

information is being stored on us, passed on to third parties, maybe to governments, depending on what countries you're in, or do you think that

convenience, you know, takes over risk? Just speak to the tradeoff here.

LALAMI: Yes. I mean, I think, -- well, there's two things. One is that I think that the surveillance that we are being subjected to right now has

progressed at a very incremental -- on a very incremental level. So, basically, if you think back to 1999, if I told you there's going to be a

device that's going to do all of the things that your device right now does, including having a complete and -- and a complete archive of every

text you've sent, every e-mail you've sent, every picture you've taken, you know, all of your calendaring data, possibly your health data, all of it in

one place and easily hackable, you think this is too much, right? But because it's happened slowly over 25 years, we've all grown accustomed to

it.

So, I think there is a kind of habituation that has taken place. And that makes us accept things that we wouldn't ordinarily have accepted if we had

been given them 25 years ago. So, I think that's one factor. But the other factor, too, is I think that there is a convenience to this. Like we are

continually making that equation between the risk of being surveilled and tracked versus the convenience that these devices deliver to our lives.

SOARES: Thank you very much, Laila. I really appreciate you coming on the show. I'm going to pass you a pen and then I'll pass you the book.

LALAMI: Perfect.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:55:00]

SOARES: What a great signature, too. And coming up to our book club, I sit down Loretta Rothschild on her debut novel, "Finding Grace." It is a story

of love, loss, as well as second chances. Really gripping. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORETTA ROTHSCHILD, AUTHOR, "FINDING GRACE": The choices we make are different based on the emotions running through us and falling in love. I

think everyone can identify with that tumbling, intoxicating drop into love, which as a writer is exactly the kind of setting I want to put my

characters in. I want them to be in danger. And being in love is extremely dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: It's such a good read. I honestly couldn't put that book down. I know my producer Kate felt the same way. And you can catch all our

interviews on our website, just search for Isa's Book Club. Here you find a list, of course, all the authors that we've interviewed and those coming

up.

And that does it for us for tonight. A very busy hour indeed. Do stay right here. What We Know with Max Foster is up next. Have a wonderful day. I

shall see you on Friday.

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[15:00:00]

END