Return to Transcripts main page
Isa Soares Tonight
Trump meets with the Saudi crown prince at the WH; U.S. to Sell F-35 Stealth Jets to Saudi Arabia; House on Track to Pass Bill to Release Epstein Files; U.S. House Passes Bill to Release Epstein Files. Aired 2:00- 3p ET
Aired November 18, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:15:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News!
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Hello, and a very warm welcome, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, we have breaking news coming to you from
Capitol Hill because any moment now, the U.S. House is set to vote on a bill that would force the release of the Epstein files in what could be an
overwhelming, if not unanimous show of support.
And it comes shortly after a top Democrat on the Oversight Committee slammed President Donald Trump for not making all records public that are
tied, of course, to the convicted sex offender. The Epstein issue is one that has dominated, as we've shown you in the show, dominated Washington
for months, and during that time, Mr. Trump has pushed back hard time and time again against any effort to get those files released, calling it a
Democratic hoax.
But over the weekend, just rewind slightly after it became clear momentum was building, not only in the House, but also -- and this is critical here
in the Senate, the President did an abrupt reversal and said he supported the vote. Meanwhile, those whose lives have been impacted the most are
calling on lawmakers to speak out and take action.
Epstein survivors today holding a press conference and demanding accountability. Here's what the brother of one of the victims had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SKY ROBERTS, BROTHER OF VIRGINIA GIUFFRE: Epstein and Maxwell didn't just abuse her. They trafficked her to a network of the rich and powerful.
Princes, prime ministers, politicians, financiers and lawyers, these men committed unspeakable acts against her, against her will and against the
will of countless survivors who stand united with us today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Arlette Saenz is on Capitol Hill for us. Arlette, just stay with us, I think we have the shot. Can we show the viewers a shot of, I believe
the vote has now started as you can see there, the numbers we're looking for, it's 290. It needs two-thirds of the House. Two-thirds of the House,
435, so, we need 290.
We're keeping an eye on that. But Arlette, before we talk about what we heard from some of the survivors there of the sound that we've just played,
just talk us through first of all the procedural aspect of this vote.
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, the House began voting in just the last minute on this measure to release the Epstein
files, a remarkable chain of events when you think about the fact that just a few months ago, President Donald Trump and House Speaker Mike Johnson had
resisted holding this type of vote.
Now, the reason that this vote came up on the House floor was because a bipartisan group of Democrats and Republicans got the necessary 218
signatures needed to use a procedural tactic to force a vote to release the files. Once that 218 signature was reached last week, House Speaker Mike
Johnson expedited a vote, setting it for today, and it comes after both Johnson and President Trump have shifted their position on this issue, and
now say that they will support the matter.
[14:20:00]
Now, Johnson is saying that he's not engaging in a reversal of his position. He still is opposed to the underlying parts of this bill because
he believes that there are some changes that need to be made to protect whistleblowers, to protect victims' identities and prevent future or
additional victims from being revealed in this measure.
But this measure is expected to pass overwhelmingly. One big question is whether it will have unanimous support. All Democrats are expected to vote
in favor of it, and the majority of Republicans will, too after President Donald Trump urged them to do so this last Sunday. It will need a two-
thirds support in order to pass.
And depending on what House attendance is like today, that could be roughly 290 members. But that number may shift depending on whether or not everyone
is here. Once this passes the House, there are big questions about what happens over in the Senate. Senate Majority leader John Thune is still
weighing whether he will even bring up this bill for a vote.
In the past, he had said he didn't believe there needed to be a vote to release the files, saying that the Justice Department had released
thousands of pages of documents. But what proponents of this measure in the House are hoping is that there will be a landslide of support for this, and
that, that will pressure the Senate to take up this bill.
Now, Johnson said that he has spoken with Thune about this measure, that he wants to see some changes made to it, like I mentioned earlier, about
protecting victims' identities, protecting whistleblowers in the future. And so, Johnson's expectation is that anything that's voted on in the
Senate would undergo some changes, then it would have to go back to the House to be voted on once again.
Senate Minority leader Chuck Schumer told reporters as he arrived here today that as soon as this measure passes the House, which could be any
minute now, that he wants to make a motion to bring this up on the Senate floor as soon as possible. So, we will see how the Majority leader, John
Thune, decides to balance that.
And then if this does pass the Senate, it would then head to President Donald Trump's desk for his signature, and he has said that he would sign
the measure. After that, there are questions about when exactly and how the Epstein files would be released. There are some here in the House who are
concerned that these files may not be released right away.
If you remember, President Donald Trump last week asked the Justice Department to open investigations into some high profile Democrats ties to
Epstein, that included Bill Clinton, Larry Summers and Reid Hoffman. There's concern that if there is an ongoing investigation that the Justice
Department might then delay releasing these files, saying that they're being used in this case.
So, there's a lot of questions about how exactly this will move forward. But this is a significant moment for House Republicans and for President
Donald Trump after they had resisted for many months holding such a vote on releasing these files. They've now gotten on board and really reversed
course, and the expectation is that this will pass the House any moment now, and then the next question is what happens in the Senate?
SOARES: Indeed, we've got about nine minutes, just less than ten minutes or so of voting. I do know that Speaker Johnson also said just before, the
-- may pass with unanimous support. So, I know you'll keep an eye on it, Arlette, thank you very much, we'll return in about nine -- less than nine
minutes or so to see how they have voted and what happens next.
Let's stay though, in Washington and turn to the White House, because today we saw pomp as well as pageantry for a leader seen by many as a pariah on
the world stage. Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is meeting -- has been meeting with U.S. President Donald Trump.
Earlier, we heard some truly remarkable comments coming from Oval Office surrounding the 2018 assassination of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. It is the
first time the Crown Prince has visited Washington since the killing, which the CIA, by the way, believes he likely ordered. He has long denied any
involvement in the murder. A reporter today asked the two leaders about it just a short time ago, leading to this truly stunning exchange. Have a
listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY BRUCE, REPORTER, ABC: Your royal highness, the U.S. Intelligence concluded that you orchestrated the brutal murder of a journalist, 9/11
families are furious that you are here in the Oval Office --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Who are you with? Who are you with?
BRUCE: Why should Americans trust you?
TRUMP: Who are you with? As far as this gentleman is concerned, he's done a phenomenal job. You're mentioning somebody that was extremely
controversial, a lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen, but
he knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guest by asking a question like that --
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN AL SAUD, CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI ARABIA: It's OK, just she asked, Mr. President --
TRUMP: Please, go ahead --
AL SAUD: Allow me to answer. You know, I feel painful about, you know, the families of 9/11 in America, but you know, we have to focus on reality.
Reality based on CIA documents and based on a lot of documents that Osama bin Laden, he used Saudi people in that event for one main purpose, is to
destroy this relation, to destroy the American-Saudi relation. That's the purpose of 9/11.
[14:25:00]
So, whoever buying that, that means they are helping Osama bin Laden's purpose of destroying this relation. He knows that strong relation between
America and Saudi Arabia, it's bad for extremism. It's bad for terrorism. And we have to prove him wrong, and to build our relation, to continue
developing our relations.
It's critical in the safety of the world, it's critical against extremism and terrorism. About the journalist, it's really painful to hear, you know,
anyone that's been losing his life for, you know, no real purpose or nothing illegal way. And it's been painful for us in Saudi Arabia.
We did all the right steps of investigation, et cetera., in Saudi Arabia, and we've improved our system to be sure that nothing happened like that.
And it's painful and it's a huge mistake, and we're doing our best that this doesn't happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, since the murder, the Crown Prince has been isolated, diplomatically shunned by many world leaders. Saudi officials hope this
charm offensive, it will help change that. Ahead of today's meeting, my colleague Jim Sciutto spoke to Jamal Khashoggi's widow. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANAN ELATR KHASHOGGI, WIDOW OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI: It is very painful for me. It's very painful for me. It will be better if Jamal was here and
receiving the Crown Prince by himself, and meet with him and share with him his vision and mission and all of his idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: At the top of the President's agenda is convincing Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel, something that was put on hold following
the October the 7th attacks. Our Alayna Treene joins me now from the White House. And Alayna, apologies if I have to interrupt, we're keeping a close
eye, of course, on the House vote to release the Epstein files.
But let me get your sense, first of all, from what we heard today. The U.S. clearly pulling out all the stops for the Saudi Crown Prince, suggesting
really how important, how vital this relationship is. And but underscoring also Alayna, the transactional nature of the relationship, right? Just talk
us through the trillion dollars being invested and talk us through what we heard.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, I mean, look, it's clear that the President wanted to pull out all the stops for this visit today,
Isa. This is not a -- you know, official state visit, because let me remind you, the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, is not the head of state of
Saudi Arabia. It's actually his 89-year-old father.
However, MBS has been the one to really kind of make a lot of the decisions of late. And so, they had a massive, you know, ornate kind of greeting. You
saw horses, you saw the honor guard with trumpets, you saw F-35 fighter jets flying over the White House, something I should note that the
President said that the U.S. is going to be selling to Saudi Arabia.
And then they're also going to have a black tie dinner tonight, and it's very clear the President had wanted to show that he believes they have a
very close relationship with the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, but also that he respects MBS. And that's where I want to bring you to with that sound you
played, that exchange between a reporter, Mary Bruce with "ABC".
I would note she is a very well respected reporter here at the White House, and both the President and the Crown Prince, she was the one who had asked
that question about the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi; the dissident journalist who was killed in a Saudi consulate in Turkey.
And I would remind you that it was actually during President Donald Trump's first term that this happened, and that the CIA, the Intelligence community
under the Trump administration were the ones who issued that Intelligence report, essentially saying that it was very likely that the Crown Prince,
Mohammed bin Salman, was the one who ordered Khashoggi to be killed.
So, it was a stunning moment, Isa, to see the President essentially shutting down those questions and arguing that you know, he said
specifically, "things happen". That was a quote from President Donald Trump. He said, "don't embarrass my guest who is here", and went on to
argue that Khashoggi was controversial and well -- and not well liked.
And I -- for people who don't remember, this was a huge moment back during Trump's first term when this had happened, and it completely, you know,
very much meddled in the relationship that the United States was trying to build with Saudi Arabia. This visit today by the Crown Prince is the first
time that Mohammed bin Salman is back at the White House in seven years since the killing of Khashoggi.
And so, it was -- it was a really crazy moment, and I think speaks again to just how much the President wanted to make it a good environment for the
Crown Prince, and just didn't want any controversial questions like that. And that was pretty remarkable. I'd also point out later that the same
reporter was pressing him on questions about Epstein and why the Trump administration wasn't just releasing these files themselves.
And at that point, he got so frustrated, President Trump, that he actually said he wanted the FCC to look into potentially yanking the "ABC" networks
license. And so, just an incredible moment there, and I think even more, you know, doubly notable, given that he's made those comments to "ABC"
while sitting next to, you know, the Crown Prince who had likely ordered the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. So, just a crazy moment inside the Oval
Office.
Some other goals you ticked through them but I think the biggest one to note very quickly is just what the president wants to get out of this
meeting. So, much of it is the pomp and circumstance showing off this relationship. He got the same welcome when he went to Saudi Arabia for his
first foreign visit of his second term back in the spring but also, he does want to try and move closer to getting them to sign into the Abraham
Accords and normalizing relationships with Israel.
From all my conversations with people in the Trump administration, Isa, they believe that is a long way off, that there's still a lot that they
need to discuss particularly that Saudi Arabia believes that there needs to be the establishment of a Palestinian State first, but again, they're
hoping this could be one step to that longer goal.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Alayna Treene for us at the White House. Thanks very much, Alayna. Appreciate it.
Let's stay on this story. I'm joined now Bilal Saab, Senior Managing Director at Trends US and associate fellow at Chatham House. Bilal, good to
have you back on the show, good to see you. I think -- I was reading your FT piece today and I read what you said regarding this Saudi Arabia
President Trump meeting. You don't think that President Trump should offer Saudi one-sided guarantees and you say and I'm going to read it out, a
unilateral defense pact with Riyadh like the one with Doha undermines America's global strategy. Just explain what you mean by that, Bilal.
BILAL Y. SAAB, SENIOR MANAGING DIRECTOR, TRENDS US: Always good to be with you, Isa. Look, I don't think this should be controversial. Anything that's
unilateral in nature, I'm not picking on the Saudis here frankly, I would have made the same argument about the Qataris, and I did actually make that
argument.
It has to be mutual. It has to be mutual where we have obligations towards the Saudis in terms of defense guarantees and they have certain obligations
towards us, and that goes beyond access and basing, so that's the old formula. The new formula is where I would like to see the Saudis contribute
far more to collective security interests and to the very safety and security of our troops who are stationed on their own soil.
So, it should be a mutual defense pact but I guess we are still going to provide them with security guarantees that are unilateral in nature just
like what we did with the Qataris. I'm against that. I'm against that in principle. I'm against that strategically speaking because it's also a
recipe for strategic overstretch, fancy words for we're over committed to the Middle East at times when we have geopolitical priorities elsewhere
that we should be attending to.
SOARES: And clearly, what we've heard today and what we saw in that -- between MBS, the crown prince and President Trump is clearly a
strengthening, Bilal, of that relation, those ties between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. Yet, as you say, there is a divide between both of them when
it comes to kind of regional security.
Do you believe at all, Bilal, that this gap can be bridged? Do you expect the Saudis to shift its position on Iran for the benefit of Trump? Because
MBS, I don't know if you heard it, was very quiet on the question of Iran today.
SAAB: Yes, right. So, look, if I'm the Saudis I don't think this could have gone any better today. It was a slam dunk meeting. I mean, MBS got
pretty much everything he wanted and -- minus -- I can't recall if there was an agreement on civilian nuclear energy cooperation, but everything
else he got.
I was even stunned myself that when the president was asked if the Saudis were going to receive similar F-35s to those owned by the Israelis, he said
yes. I mean, typically when we talk about that advanced military equipment, the Arab partners tend to get modified versions, which is a more diplomatic
word than saying, you know, they get the less capable versions, but you know, Trump, and you got to, you know, just take him for his words. I mean,
he said that they're going to receive the exact same thing as the Israelis because they're as good of an ally as the Israelis.
You are exactly right to say that there's some kind of gap or discrepancy between the United States and Saudi Arabia when it comes to the issue of
Iran. I think President Trump and the United States are sort of more on a less peaceful path with the Iranians. MBS has made it very clear that he
wants nothing to do with confrontation with the Iranians, he wants peace and quiet with his neighbors so that he can focus on his domestic
priorities at home, which obviously center on economics.
So, is there a possibility for bridging that gap? Yes, absolutely, but this is where, you know, continuous dialogue between us and the Saudis has to
happen to have some kind of alignment on the issue of Iran, which is huge.
SOARES: Bilal, so good to have you. I'm sorry we have to cut you short. We are keeping an eye on the House votes over the Epstein files. Thank you
very much. Good to see you Bilal. As always, great to have you on the show.
Let's go back to Arlette Saenz, who's on Capitol Hill. Arlette, where are we for bringing the viewers up to speed on where we are on the vote?
[14:35:00]
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, the vote has yet to be called but it does appear to be on track to pass and to pass
overwhelmingly. I think the big question right now will be whether there is in fact unanimous support of all Democrats and all Republicans in
attendance that -- getting behind this measure.
This marks a remarkable moment really for the push to release these Jeffrey Epstein investigation files after months of resistance from top Republican
leaders in the House and also from the White House. House Speaker Mike Johnson voted yes on this measure a few minutes ago. And before he cast his
vote, he really slammed Democrats, saying that they are using this vote as a political weapon to go after President Donald Trump. Something that we
have heard over and over from Republicans today is a frustration with Democrats who they argue could have released these files back when they
were in control of Congress and the White House but instead were pushing to do so when President Trump began his second term.
Now, there's a lot of questions about what happens next once this measure heads over to the Senate. Senate Majority Leader John Thune has said that
he is still weighing how to approach this going forward. In the past he had suggested that there was no need for such a vote on a bill because he
believed the Justice Department had released sufficient information but with an overwhelming majority and potential unanimous group of House
representatives voting in favor of this measure that could increase pressure on Senator Thune to act.
One thing that the Speaker Johnson has said is he has held conversations with Thune in recent days about this measure and about the need for there
to be changes to the measure. Johnson has said that there are some deficiencies in that it doesn't do enough to protect victims, it doesn't do
enough to protect whistleblowers and encourage others from coming forward if there are similar instances happening.
So, Johnson has said that he wants to see those changes made in the Senate. We will see whether Thune decides to go down that route and if it does pass
in the Senate it would then head to President Donald Trump's desk for his signature. He has said that he would sign it even though he has resisted
this effort for many, many months.
SOARES: So, two questions just from picking up what you said. Do we have a sense of how quickly -- I know we don't know yet, we haven't heard from
Thune on how -- regarding the changes, but how -- could we be looking at a quick vote in the Senate if this does go through?
SAENZ: That's really to be determined right now. The Senate comes back into session at 3:00 p.m. So, in a little under an hour here in the U.S.
Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer has said that he wants to make a motion to bring this up immediately. It's unclear whether Thune will do
that.
There is some thinking though that they might want to just go ahead and get a vote over with, because this issue of Jeffrey Epstein has dominated news
cycle after news cycle here in the U.S. and allowing a vote to kind of linger there in a Senate would just give it more time to have the focus be
on Epstein instead of other issues that the GOP might want to push ahead on.
So, that is one school of thought as to why he might try to move this very quickly but we will see ultimately what the majority leader in the Senate
decides to do as President Donald Trump has urged his supporters to go ahead and back this measure.
SOARES: And, Arlette, just take a step back and just a look at this moment, because for weeks on end the Republicans, the White House have been
against the release of these Epstein files, and then, suddenly, the weekend comes and we're seeing some sort of U-turn from the president. We're seeing
more Republicans speak out. What has led to this change of mind, this U- turn here, this reversal?
SAENZ: Yes, it's really been a fascinating episode to watch. I mean, even thinking back to when President Donald Trump was running for re-election,
he had pointed to the fact that they wanted to release the Epstein files. This was something that his MAGA base really craved and had pushed for for
quite some time. Then this summer he really reversed course in saying that he would not release these files and that set off a firestorm up here on
Capitol Hill.
We saw this discharge petition, that bipartisan effort to use a procedural tactic to force this vote. We saw that really start to gain some steam back
in July. House Speaker Mike Johnson ultimately had decided to send the House into recess early because there was a stalemate over the Epstein
issues. He delayed swearing in Democratic Arizona Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva for weeks after she was set to become the final signature needed
to force this vote from happening.
And then, after that occurred Johnson basically believed that this was inevitable, that they just needed to get the vote over with.
[14:40:00]
And that's part what brought President Trump on board. He was facing significant political pressure. It was expected that there would be a wave
of Republicans who would back this measure even if the president was not out there publicly saying so. So, that is part of what prompted the
president to get ahead and go ahead and tell people, yes, you should vote to release that.
But there's a lot of questions about how this will play out in the future and whether the Justice Department will actually release the files in their
entirety, especially as the president has directed the department to conduct investigations into some high-profile Democrats.
SOARES: And Senior Democrat Jamie Raskin that we heard, I think, in the last, what, 10, 15 minutes before the vote got underway, he said, justice
is urgent, legislative work to which he was then applauded, applauded by some of the survivors, I understand, Arlette, a few dozen of Jeffrey
Epstein's survivors, their lawyers and family who have been watching from the House Gallery. This after incredibly emotional day, as we heard from
them on Capitol Hill.
SAENZ: Yes, several of survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse and crimes were on hand for this vote in the House Gallery. They really have been some
of the most poignant voices in this entire debate. They have come up to Capitol Hill on multiple occasions urging lawmakers to get behind this vote
to release the Jeffery Epstein files.
A bit earlier today, several of them gathered with some of the Republicans and the Democrat who had pushed this measure along to say that they believe
that this information needed to get out. There was one woman who was -- said she was detailing her abuse at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein for the
very first time. They really have lent a very powerful voice to this argument and this push to release these files. And today, they are getting
to see some of that work come to fruition as the House is expected to pass this measure overwhelmingly.
And now, likely, their attention will turn to the Senate. They have simply said that they want more information, want more transparency and want
justice to be served after the violence and the crimes that they endured when they were young girls.
SOARES: Arlette, do they with us. We're keeping an eye on those tallies. Of course, I can see one nay on our screens, and that's Louisiana
Republican Clay Higgins. Just for our viewers, one (INAUDIBLE) who that nay was from.
Let me bring in -- from Washington, we're going to stay in Washington, our Stephen Collinson. Stephen, just -- it's incredible to think that you and I
have spoken on so many occasions the past two weeks about why did the lane releasing these files and yet here we are seeing potentially, as we heard
from Speaker Johnson earlier, potentially unanimous support. Just speak to this moment right now, potentially with it.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Yes. I think it's a tribute to the courage of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. I remember when
they started to get a little bit more vocal and public a couple of months ago, thinking that this could be the moment that changes the politics of
this, if it can build some momentum behind it.
You've also seen several lawmakers on the Republican and Democratic sides that were really pushing this when there wasn't much support in it for it
elsewhere in the House, especially on the Republican side with the Speaker Mike Johnson and the president arrayed against them.
We've been talking a lot about how Trump has almost ultimate power in Washington, believes that as president there are no limits on his executive
power. This is a demonstration for the first time in this second Trump term of the power of democracy, of how political campaigns can really make a big
difference and start to chip away the perceptions of unfettered power.
So, it's going to be very interesting to see after this how this plays out, if this moves into other issues like the economy, like the president's
foreign policy, where he is also wielding what many people believe is unconstitutional power. It's far too early, I think --
SOARES: Stephen, let me interrupt for a second. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bill is passed and without objection, the motion to reconsider is laid on the table.
SOARES: And you've just heard that the bill has passed. Let me bring -- Stephen, stay with us. Arlette joins us now. Arlette, from what I
understand, the vote -- are you still with us, Arlette? The vote is now passed from what we just heard.
SAENZ: I am. I'm here.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SAENZ: The vote has passed with a vote of 427 to 1. The only no vote was Republican Congressman Clay Higgins of Louisiana. So, we will wait to
figure out why exactly he decided to vote no. But this does mark a remarkable moment in the efforts to release the full Jeffrey Epstein files.
[14:45:00]
After months of resistance from President Donald Trump and from Republican leaders in the House, this vote to release the files in full has moved
forward. Now, the question is about what happens over in the Senate. The Senate is set to convene in about 16 minutes. So, we will see if Senate
Majority Leader John Thune might come to the floor to say anything along those lines.
Johnson has said that he's spoken with Thune about this measure. And Johnson's belief is that there needs to be some changes to this measure in
order to secure that there is protection for victims' identities, protection for whistleblowers, if there are similar instances that need to
be reported in the future. And it's Johnson's understanding that Thune has acknowledged that those changes would need to be made.
So, there's a lot of questions about how exactly this will proceed once it hits the Senate floor, whether John Thune will in fact bring this up for a
vote, and whether he will allow for changes to be made. And if they do vote on this, they will need 13 Republican senators, if all Democrats are in
line, to vote in favor of releasing these files. And that would send this to President Donald Trump's desk. And he has said that he would sign this
measure. Lots of questions, though, about how and when exactly the files would in fact be released.
SOARES: Thanks very much, Arlette. I'll let you go. Let me go back to Stephen Collinson. Stephen, just going back with you, now it's passed, it's
finally voted, finally voted on this. Now, the question of how quickly does this move, right, to the Senate. As you heard, Arlette, they're potentially
asking for changes here. We don't -- we haven't heard from Thune following, obviously, the vote that just passed in the House. We'll keep an ear out.
But how fast do you think this may happen?
COLLINSON: I think it's a political matter the Republicans would like to get this dealt with as quickly as possible. But it does take time to change
things in the Senate. I don't think we've had a full picture of where exactly Republican feeling is about this bill and what changes might need
to be made so far in the Senate.
Senators generally don't like to be bumped into action by the House. But they'll be heading home for the Thanksgiving holiday at the end of the
week. I think they would rather that this does not continue bubbling away over that week because it then becomes a massive controversy when they get
back to Washington.
I'd also keep an eye out for what the victims and their spokespeople say when they come out of this vote in the House. Many of them will have been
watching it from the public galleries. They're going to push for very quick action. And I think Arlette put her finger on it. This is an administration
with a Justice Department that does exactly what Donald Trump wants.
If this goes to the Senate, Trump signs it, it will be a law. We will see how closely the administration follows that law and if we can eventually
have confidence that if they're ordered to produce all of these documents, they really do produce all of these documents.
SOARES: Yes. And look, and we heard today President Trump in the Oval Office alongside Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman basically saying I have
nothing to do with Epstein. Yet he was asked by a journalist quite openly, well, if you've got nothing to do with it, why don't you release the files?
And that seems to be a question that we have all been asking for some time.
How much of the decision you think to -- on this U-turn here, Stephen, how much was this because the president knew or feared that he would lose the
vote? How much does this Trump try and control the narrative?
COLLINSON: I think that had a great deal to do with it. It became clear over the weekend that we weren't just talking about a handful of
Republicans that were going to rebel, it was being the tens or even hundreds. This vote today clearly shows that many Republicans wanted to
vote for this and they will be very happy now that they didn't have to vote against their own president to do so.
This is a massive defeat for the president. It's the first big defeat of his second term. He's ruled by dominance and the perception of dominance in
Washington especially over the Republican Party and over the Republican base. This is a big issue for the Republican base. So, we've not seen
before, and even during his first term, the party leading Trump rather than Trump leading the party.
SOARES: And on that point, you know, the ruling by dominance we've seen Marjorie Taylor Greene who of course was a major ally of President Trump
really going after him and him attacking her very verbal rhetoric between both of them. I think Trump called her -- calling her a traitor right after
that kind of very public political breakup. How much are these cracks -- are there cracks, you think, appearing within the GOP base and could these
cracks over Epstein spread out further within the GOP outside of course of the Epstein scandal you think, Stephen?
[14:50:00]
COLLINSON: I think sometimes when you're in Washington in the middle of a big controversy sometimes you're present at a power shift that you don't
know it until afterwards. It's possible this is one of those moments. That said, is there an issue that the Republican House would revolt against the
president about that is not Epstein? That's difficult to see at the moment.
Although he is at a point where there is growing concern about his obliviousness for example to the economic worries that many Americans are
facing. His approval ratings to go down. So, at this point in the presidency it would be natural for members of a president's party
especially facing a tough midterm election to start calculating whether they need to break with him or -- and they need to adopt a slightly more
independent persona.
I don't think we're at that moment yet, but I think this is a different moment in Trump's Washington than we've experienced before.
SOARES: And just stay with us, Stephen. For our viewers just watching us we're breaking news right now on the show, we're monitoring for the last
10, 15 minutes, of course, as it's our top story this hour, the House has taken a major step and it has passed a bipartisan bill to compel the
Justice Department in the United States to release all of its case files tied to the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. It's quite a dramatic
turnaround of course that we have seen after months of GOP fighting after months of the white hearing from the White House that this was a democratic
hoax.
The House voted 427 to 1 to advance the measure with only one Republican Louisiana Republican Clay Higgins vote of Louisiana voting against it. Now,
it's a question, Stephen, as we go to the next stage of voting in the Senate. But there are questions over the timing of some of the tweaks as we
heard from Alayna Treen there of making tweaks to this.
I wonder then given the -- there's appetite now from Republicans whether potentially this moves faster than if it only a minority of them supporting
this?
COLLINSON: Yes, it certainly sends a very strong message. If we were talking about the four or five Republicans that initially revolted against
the president on this issue, I think there would have been more appetite in the Senate to slow this up.
Thomas Massie, the Kentucky Republican member of Congress who was very instrumental in pushing this bill through the House, he was arguing a few
moments ago that the tweaks that House Speaker Mike Johnson is talking about are just face saving really to explain the Republican initial
reluctance to get behind this bill. He points out that many of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein want all of this information to be put out in public.
And one of the justifications for changing this bill is that they want to protect the victims. So, that argument doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
This issue is creating massive political momentum. And while the Senate is often been seen as the more sober chamber of the U.S. Congress that waits a
little bit of time and sometimes moderates what the House does, I think is coming under a lot more pressure than party leaders would have expected now
because of the strength of this vote because of the president's change of, of course, to push this through as quickly as possible.
SOARES: And as I was saying, Stephen, we had only one Republican Louisiana -- from Louisiana voted -- Clay Higgins voted no out of -- it was two -- to
427 yay and one no. And on access is what he says. I'm just going to read out the reason why he voted no for our viewers. I've been a principled no
on this bill from the beginning. What was wrong with the bill three months ago is still wrong today. It abandons 250 years of criminal justice
procedure in America. As written, this bill reveals and injures thousands of innocent people witnesses people, who provided alibis family members et
cetera, he says. If enacted in its current form this type of broad reveal of criminal investigative files released for rabid media will absolutely
result in innocent people being hurt. Not by my vote.
But as we know we are -- there's calls for there to be changes to that, to do exactly that, right, to protect witnesses, to protect innocent people.
That's what John Thune is being asked in the next stage.
COLLINSON: Yes. And the congressman there does have a point because it has always been Justice Department policy that you don't publicly release
investigative files when there is not a criminal conviction or an investigation or an indictment that takes place because then you risk
exposing to people, as you said, who are witnesses or who were investigated and they didn't find evidence that would make it through a court.
[14:55:00]
You risk impugning their reputation, exposing them. You make people less likely to perhaps in future speak to the legal authorities. So, he is
making that point there.
What the victims say is that there has been, in their view, such a miscarriage of justice here, a potential cover up that that outweighs the
normal Justice Department procedures and concerns about evidence and witnesses and everything else.
It's possible that if this does get slowed a little bit in the Senate this does become one of those issues. It's going to be very interesting to see
if the Senate does anything that the Justice Department can then hide behind if it is reluctant to release all of the information.
SOARES: Stephen, as always, great to have you on the show. Thanks for sticking around with us. A very dramatic day. A very busy day of course in
the White House with this vote, of course, in Washington but also, of course, the crown prince, bin Salman, in the United States with President
Trump. A very busy 24 hours.
Do stay right here, "What We Know" with Max Foster's up next. He'll have much more of this dramatic vote in the U.S. House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
