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Laura Coates Live
Manhattan D.A. Suggests Delaying Trump Sentencing Until 2029; Trump Taps Dr. Oz to Oversee Medicare And Medicaid; Laura Coates Interviews Jay Graber, CEO Of Bluesky. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired November 19, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And Mehmet Oz, the doctor who with a syndicated show on which he sold Americans controversial products. So, the question is, who is next? The whole idea is to get all of us tuned in.
Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, Donald Trump to be sentenced, maybe in the year 2029? The unprecedented move now being suggested in his own hush money case. And paging Dr. Oz. Donald Trump taps his friend for a new job inside the administration. This is the drama around his picks seems to ramp up to all new levels. Plus, millions of users ditching Elon Musk's X for Bluesky. The company's CEO joins me for our first television interview tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
All right, get your calendars out. I want you to circle this date, January 20th, 2029. I know it seems like a lifetime away because it frankly is, but stick with me, because as of right now, that could theoretically be when a judge considers sentencing Donald Trump in his hush money case, the end of Trump's second term, which is four years, two months, and one day from right now, but who's counting?
Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg is acknowledging to Judge Juan Merchan that even after a jury found him guilty of 34 counts on May 30th of this year, January 20th, 2029 may very well be how it all plays out. But should it a freeze of the case?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: All right, everyone, chill, chill, chill.
(SHOUTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, now, Judge Merchan has to decide, does the Iceman cometh? Trump's team wants an outright dismissal of the entire case. They argued his conviction on 34 counts of falsifying business records should be thrown out because he's about to become the president yet again and return to the White House. And well, because of that Supreme Court presidential immunity decision.
But Bragg is putting his foot down. He says maybe justice deferred, but not dismissed. Dismissed, apparently, is entirely off his table. So, now, Judge Merchan finds himself between a rock and a hard place, delay sentencing until 2029, say that again, and dole out a punishment to a former president more than four years removed from the verdict and maybe over a decade from the actual alleged conduct, or dismiss the conviction and go against the D.A. and the Manhattan jury that found him guilty. We're going to find out what the judge decides to do in the weeks ahead.
But one thing is certainly for sure. It is a huge turnaround for Trump's legal fortunes. On top of the unknown outcome in New York now, the two federal cases against him are now winding down. And the Georgia case has been delayed indefinitely as Trump and his co- defendants tried to remove the Fulton County D.A., Fani Willis, recently re-elected from the case.
Now, Trump is rewarding the allies that stood by his side. Many of them trotted in and around that Manhattan courthouse to defend him. Among them, J.D. Vance, the vice president-elect. Well, that worked out well for him. Matt Gaetz, Trump's pick for attorney general. Mike Waltz, the National Security advisor pick. Doug Burgum, up for Interior secretary. I'm seeing a pattern here, are you? Vivek Ramaswamy, co-leader of the Department of Government Efficiency. Pronounced DOGE, by the way. Now, Trump is even rewarding his lawyers, Emile Bove and Todd Blanche, both of them picked for high-ranking posts, you guessed it, in the Department of Justice.
The show of force, by the way, wasn't just a visual show of force. It was vocal, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: What's going on inside that courtroom is a threat to American democracy, ladies and gentlemen.
MATT GAETZ, FORMER FLORIDA REPRESENTATIVE: This is a corrupt judge. These are corrupted witnesses. This is a corrupt prosecution that belies any sense of the facts or the law.
REP. MIKE WALTZ (R-FL): This isn't justice. This is politics. It's political warfare.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM (R-ND): One thing that we've all known is this was a sham trial. But when you have an opportunity to see it up close and personal, you can see it's actually a scam trial.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY, FORMER 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a sham. This is not the United States of America. This is some third-rate banana republic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, to be clear, Trump went through the same trial process as anyone else charged with these crimes would have, and he was found guilty, unanimously, by 12 jurors. But, of course, a much larger number rendered a much different verdict at the ballot box.
[23:05:00]
Joining me now, Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman, a former assistant U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York. He served as lead counsel in the first impeachment of President Donald Trump.
Good to have you here, congressman. I have to get your take on the decision to possibly freeze the sentencing and hold it in that hush money case in New York to potentially after the presidential term, four years from now. What's your take?
REP. DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, it's an unprecedented situation --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOLDMAN: -- and that's an unprecedented request. It is very unusual to have a delay of that length. I certainly have never heard of it. But on the flip side, it's also very unusual to have a convicted felon who is becoming the president of the United States. The reality is that Donald Trump, one way or another, is going to evade accountability for all of his misconduct, charged in four indictments, until at least after his four-year presidency.
And that is a travesty of justice. That is really unfortunate, not for any reason that I think, but only because this is how our system of justice works. And grand juries are involved. Juries are involved, as in the New York case. And no one should be above the law, but it appears Donald Trump is above the law.
COATES: He would be what? Eighty-two or in his early 80s four years from now. Do you think he should be sentenced four years from now if he's not sentenced right now?
GOLDMAN: Well, in the ordinary course, in a case like this New York, he would likely get probation.
COATES: Uh-hmm. So, why not do that now? If you're the judge, if that's the likelihood, why kick that can down the road if it wouldn't actually have an impact on his ability to govern as the president anyway?
GOLDMAN: So, that is a possibility. There are -- if -- once you are sentenced and a judgment is entered, then you become a convicted felon. So, he is technically not yet a convicted felon, but he would be after being sentenced. And there are restrictions to where convicted felons can fly, can travel to. There are additional restrictions on a convicted felon. And as president of the United States, I would think that we do not want to have those restrictions on our president.
COATES: You have to imagine, if you are looking at the jury process, the request to forget just delay sentencing, but to dismiss the case outright because he's now the president-elect, how does that appeal or convey a certain message to a jury pool or our country that says there's a guilty verdict but now you can dismiss the case? GOLDMAN: I worry less about that because cases are frequently overturned. Jury verdicts are often overturned because of a misreading of the law or a bad jury instruction or, in some cases, the law is interpreted differently. What I worry about here is the combination of the Supreme Court's opinion granting presidents broad immunity.
COATES: Hmm.
GOLDMAN: And yes, there's conduct that he was charged with, that he is now going to evade accountability for, but he also now has carte blanche to commit whatever crimes he wants as president in the next four years. And if he is going to direct his attorney general to do something wrong, do something illegal or perhaps to say, well, I'm going to pardon this person because I just received a million dollars --
COATES: Hmm.
GOLDMAN: -- he's immune. And that is what's scary because over the next four years, an emboldened, authoritarian, immune Donald Trump is a real danger.
COATES: Assuming that it's the official axis he describes, speaking of the attorney general pick, I mean, congressman -- former Congressman Matt Gaetz is the person he's choosing. We understand tonight that Trump is not reconsidering that pick, even in light of controversial allegations that he has denied involving sex with minors. The DOJ did not pursue prosecution. The ethics committee, though, is going to meet tomorrow. They have provided a report. They have crafted one. Don't you think the public, if not the public, the Senate at the very least, should see this report?
GOLDMAN: Absolutely. This should be a part of whatever the Senate evaluates to determine whether or not this individual is competent, qualified, and able to serve as the most senior law enforcement officer in our country.
[23:10:01]
And it is dangerous to think about someone like Matt Gaetz, who clearly has expressed a vendetta against the Department of Justice because of his own investigation, has talked about eliminating the FBI altogether, wants to clearly tear that department down and burn it to the ground. The notion that he would run that department is preposterous and very dangerous.
So, I personally think that enough of this is going to come out and likely the report or the witnesses are going to come forward. And it's hard to imagine that Matt Gaetz gets through. But this is where Trump's strategy really works out because he overloads the zone --
COATES: Hmm.
GOLDMAN: -- with absurdity. And so Matt Gaetz might be the one who withdraws. But Tulsi Gabbard has highly questionable interactions with Assad and Putin, and she would be overseeing our Intelligence Community. RFK Jr. is a vaccine denier overseeing our health and human services. Dr. Oz is now with CMS. Pete Hegseth, you know, who was a brave warrior in war but has never held a senior position, is going to run the Department of Defense. And it becomes so many that even if one pulls out, Donald Trump thinks that he can push the rest through.
And so, it is really incumbent on the Senate Republicans to stand up to each individual cabinet appointment and evaluate them on their own, not as part of a package.
COATES: Do you anticipate they will?
GOLDMAN: I think if anyone will, it's the Senate Republicans under John Thune. And I think John Thune cares very much about the Senate. I think he cares very much about the institution. I think he cares very much about advice and consent. And I remain optimistic that John Thune will stand up for the institution of the Senate and the rule of law, and make sure that whomever is appointed and nominated and ultimately confirmed is qualified for the job.
COATES: Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you so much for joining.
GOLDMAN: Thank you.
COATES: Well, as you heard the congressman say, President-elect Donald Trump picked T.V. personality, Dr. Mehmet Oz, to lead the centers for Medicare and Medicaid services. He's, of course, no stranger to Americans, having hosted a television show that at times led him to make controversial and some bogus health claims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAMASWAMY: What I believe is one of the most important discoveries we've made to help you burn fat faster. Green coffee bean extract.
I actually do personally believe in the items that I talk about in the show. I passionately study them. I recognize that oftentimes, they don't have the scientific muster to present as fat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Oz, of course, tried his hand at politics in 2022 when he ran and lost to John Fetterman for Senate in Pennsylvania. Now, if he's confirmed, he'd be in charge of an agency that oversees health and insurance programs for 150 million Americans.
I want to bring in national political correspondent for Politico, Meredith McGraw, Democratic strategist Chuck Rocha, also seen in political commentary and former Trump campaign advisor, David Urban, a commentator as well. Good to have all of you here.
Let me begin with you, David. Trump is saying that Dr. Oz, and I'm quoting here, "will cut waste and fraud within our country's most expensive government agency." So, our big cuts to Medicaid the right thing for Republicans to focus on now?
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Look, I don't know if they are. I think, you know, the government can always do better. I liked, his opponent, John Fetterman's response, right? He is going to preserve Medicare and Medicaid. I'm voting for the dude.
COATES: That's a heck of an ifs.
URBAN: It is. Listen, preserving and cutting and streamlining and making sure things run better. Much of cuts in Medicare and Medicaid are what needed, right? But, see, I mean, there are always ways it could be improved. But I don't think, you know, the seniors and people who are on -- you know, getting assistance need to have their health care cut.
COATES: I mean, Chuck, on that point, you're talking about what? For Medicaid coverage in the U.S. This is in 2023. You got four in 10 children. You've eight in 10 children in poverty. You have six in 10 non-elderly adults in poverty, 41% of births in the U.S., and five in eight nursing home residents, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.
I think David is right about the word "cut" being something very difficult for people to get on board with. But are other synonyms somehow going to make it better if the whole goal is efficiency?
[23:15:00]
CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR BERNIE SANDERS'S 2016 AND 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS: There's a lot of people out there that have a lot of anxiety. These --
COATES: Sure.
ROCHA: The numbers that you just put out there is a reason for that. There's a lot of people who are teetering on the edge. And when I ran campaigns this cycle, and we lost a lot of campaigns, we won a lot of campaigns. But Donald Trump won the presidency. And I've had Republicans tell me all week, we won, this is what we get to do, we get to these -- they go to these spoils, go to the winner, where they can pick who they want.
Well, America voted because they feel anxious. They didn't trust the Democrats at the presidential level. They trust them at some Senate races and some congressional races. So now there's a real chance for a distinguished difference. We get to say, this is what you voted for, this is somebody.
If they ever wanted to cut these things that you're talking about with Medicare, Medicaid, these folks that are teetering, who need a little bit of assistance, lots of working Americans out there that have a lot, I'll go back to this, anxiety, this is where you distinguish at a party between this is their values and this is ours when things like this start to go down because a lot of people voted for change. Maybe Harris wasn't the change, but I don't think this, in my opinion, is a change they want.
URBAN: I got to say really quickly, I got to say, you know, on larger theme (ph) of efficiency, I think it's what you're really looking for, right? You'll be looking for efficiencies. When you deliver these things more efficiently, perhaps find savings that way, and that's the overall regime thing with Elon and others, right? So, not cutting but streamlining and finding efficiencies.
COATES: We will see what that DOGE organization or agency might have. But the mandate comes back. This idea of a mandate, Meredith, well, everyone talks about it, it's the economy and maybe the reallocation of resources to more effectively align with what the voters want.
You also have about his picks, his nominees. Attorney general pick, Matt Gaetz, a newly resigned member of Congress. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is a Gaetz ally, is warning that she would expose all of Republicans' sexual misconduct claims if Gaetz's report is released, saying, "If we're going to dance, let's all dance in the sunlight. I'll make sure we do." How is that going to end for Republicans on the Hill?
MEREDITH MCGRAW, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: Well, I think you're continuing to hear from Republicans on the Hill, you know, look, we are in charge of, you know, consent and advising, and we want to get all the information in front of us before we get decisions.
You know, I'm sure there are going to be some Republicans on the Hill who are going to be listening to Donald Trump, and he has been calling for things like recess appointments. But at the same time, you know, they're going to want to get all the information from them so they can make these choices.
COATES: She's not the only one who's making these claims as well. You heard earlier today my colleague, Boris. Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna also saying this about exposing those who might not be going along to get along. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANNA PAULINA LUNA (R-FL): I will say that for the senators that are coming forward and stating that they need to read this testimony, let's look at these people's stocks portfolios and how they're becoming multimillionaires off of $175,000 a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: And, of course, that reference to money also followed up by the attorney representing two women who have made these allegations about the amount of money that was paid to them. You know, this becomes an increasingly controversial pick, not just for the allegations that he has denied, but because of the threats for those who do not go along.
MCGRAW: You know, I think for all of the candidates that Trump has put forward so far, Matt Gaetz seems to be skating on the thinnest ice. Not only with the Republicans on the Hill, but even some of Trump's allies who recognize that with this ethics report hanging over him, it's going to make things a little bit harder. And, you know, for some of these Republicans who are going to be making confirmation votes, who might be up for reelection, it just poses a greater challenge.
ROCHA: It's funny that Luna was the one saying that. Congresswoman Luna, excuse me, is being voted (ph) as the Department of Labor secretary. Like all of these folks are to the beginning monologue, falling in line behind somebody.
And again, I've won a lot of races, and I've been the one out there saying, look, we won, you got to get in line. This is what happens when you win. But there are also Democrats, listen to me, away to contrast here, and say now, they voted for that, but now you can contrast what your values are compared to theirs.
URBAN: I'll just say that's -- everybody, exhale. Senate is --
(LAUGHTER)
Senate is six-year terms, right? Senators would think of themselves as the upper body. They're different than the House.
ROCHA: We can agree on that.
URBAN: And I think that they don't -- they're not going to see any of their power. You saw that --
MCGRAW: Yeah.
URBAN: -- in the discussions about having recess appointments. I think they're going to have a full and fair investigation, vetting of all these candidates, and there will be up down votes. People who are going -- you know, the president is going to get -- I think the president is entitled to most of his picks, and he will get most of his picks through. There will be a few that don't make it, and that will be based on the facts that people hear.
COATES: I've never -- I've never seen any of the senators ever fall victim to persuasion at all.
(LAUGHTER)
At all. You must be right.
URBAN: They got six years. A lot of these folks just --
COATES: Okay.
URBAN: I think they're going to -- yeah, I think you'll be surprised, America.
COATES: Look, his mug, the "Laura Coates Live" one, is half full, everyone.
(LAUGHTER)
Meredith, thank you so much. Chuck, David, stand by. Ahead, does the left need to rethink how it's talking about this man, Elon Musk? One Democrat says it is time to see him as more than a punching bag. The panel weighs in on tonight's take. Plus, should Daniel Penny take the stand in his chokehold trial?
[23:20:01]
The latest on his defense team is thinking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Tonight's take comes to us from Jim Geraghty at "The Washington Post," who wonders if Democrats should stop recoiling at everything Elon Musk does. He writes, "What if, instead of attempting to paint Musk as a Bond villain, the Trump opposition cheered on Musk's ideas that they like and criticize the ones they don't? What if Democrats, in particular, gave Musk credit for an accomplishment every now and then Wouldn't that make criticism of his other moves all the more credible and compelling?"
[23:25:02]
Take today's launch of SpaceX's Starship. It's the largest and most powerful rocket ever built. A rocket Musk eventually wants to use to take human beings to Mars. That's the super heavy booster coming down back down to earth, splashing down in the Gulf of Mexico. Remember just last month, that booster came back down from space and was able to dock itself. But today, SpaceX technicians were not -- quote -- "favorable to replicate that very landing." In the future, they hope to land these boosters so they can be refurbished and flown again.
Donald Trump was on hand today with Musk to see it all in real time, and the latest example of just how close the two men seem to have become.
I want to bring in Teddy Schleifer. He's a reporter for "The New York Times" who covers Musk. Chuck Rocha and David Urban are back with me as well. Teddy, let me begin with this. I mean, President-elect Trump was with his new bestie today at that launch. They've been together, frankly, nearly every single day since the election. But look, Musk, as you know, used to be a Democrat. What exactly brought him to the right and right beside Trump?
THEODORE SCHLEIFER, REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: You know, I think it started with COVID. You know, during the pandemic, Elon Musk really bristled at COVID restrictions on Tesla in California where he lived at the time. And he moved to Texas, and he got surrounded by a much more conservative social circle, people who were obsessed with issues like immigration and crime.
And you can just see this on Elon's own Twitter feed. It does not require, you know, piercing behind enemy lines and learning what Elon is telling his friends. You see it publicly with what he tweets.
COATES: Uh-hmm. It's true. It's really in front of you most of the time. Chuck, let me bring you in here because Congressman Ritchie Torres wrote about Musk on X, the site he actually owned, saying, "But for SpaceX, the U.S. would be losing the space race against China. But for Tesla, the EV industry in the U.S. would be a shell of itself. The country thrives on intrepid innovators like Elon Musk. Why antagonize him so intensely that you drive him into Trump's corner and make a permanent enemy out of him? Politics should be a game of addition, not subtraction."
Does Congressman Torres have a point to you?
ROCHA: He has a point. He has a point in that in politics overall, in my opinion. I've sat here across from Republicans all day and twice on Sundays a lot of times and said, look, there's a lot more we have in common and apart. But we make a living. I make a living tearing down Republicans with T.V. ads and talking about all the crazy things that I think that they do, when at the end of the day, there's lots of things. Elon Musk is a great example.
I agree with Congressman Torres there that if you look at some of the things that have happened, the SpaceX thing is one good example. There are other places where technology -- I'll tell you this. Go to your local D.C. government website and try to figure out how to get your trash picked up on a day off. And I can tell you that if he can come over and fix the D.C. websites and get some of our services fixed, I'm all in for Elon. Something as simple as that. I still think they're working up on Windows 13.
URBAN: DOGE is going to attack that next. That's going to be -- first, the federal government. D.C. government is much more complex.
COATES: I mean, by the way, speaking of what he posted, Musk, as you know, has Trump's ear, at least beside it. And David of -- actually posted about Argentina's president cutting import taxes, saying, good move. Could he be influential on areas that are not just maybe part of the bromance but things that a lot of economists think might be a bad idea?
URBAN: I would just say that Elon Musk is not infallible. Here, you know, Elon Musk was pushing for somebody else to be secretary of Transportation, and Donald Trump picks somebody completely different. So, I would say that, you know, he's influential, 100%, but he's not dispositive. His support is not dispositive.
COATES: Teddy, Trump became pretty infatuated with Musk toward the end of the campaign cycle. We all saw it. And he repeated that same story about the booster being caught but didn't actually happen today. I do wonder, since he was there watching and the result didn't occur, is that going to impact Trump's view of Musk?
SCHLEIFER: I mean, Trump is mesmerized by Elon's accomplishments in business. I mean, Trump comes from New York. He has not gone to many rockets launches in his day. He does not know a ton about manufacturing or -- yes, certainly not rocket science. So, Musk has something that Trump has not, which is a sophisticated understanding of science technology. And for people around Trump, he's impressed. Obviously, you know, it would have been more impressive if they achieve the desired result. But Trump is mesmerized by Elon just as much as Elon is mesmerized by Trump.
COATES: David, I don't necessarily know Trump to be somebody who loves to share the spotlight in limelight. How long is it going to last, this idea of this bromance?
URBAN: I think it's -- listen, there's one president of the United States.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
URBAN: Right?
COATES: It's one Elon Musk in the world.
URBAN: As Donald Trump. Well, they have different skill sets, right? Let's -- it's -- I don't think Elon Musk wants to be president. I don't think the president wants to be Elon Musk.
[23:29:58]
I think they're going to coexist in a universe just well. Look, Elon Musk is an incredible individual. He has redefined, you know, the century with -- He basically is our space program, right? If it wasn't for Elon Musk -- there are people trapped in space. We're begging Elon Musk to go get them.
COATES: Right.
URBAN: Because nobody else can do it. I mean, it is almost like your cartoonish importance in the globe. And so -- but Donald Trump is uniquely singular in his ability to go anywhere in this planet. And you ask somebody what they think of Donald Trump. They have an opinion, right? No matter where it is. Africa, the subcontinent. You pick a place. They know Donald Trump.
ROCHA: I'll say this: Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. Lessons in life would tell us that every time that we've waited for the richest man or woman to bail us out because they're the richest one, it's always bit workers in the backside. And I'll just say that they're not always the most worker-friendly, people-friendly. And you can tell he's a nerd. God bless him. He's a nerd. Most scientists like that are nerds. If he can come get the abandoned couch off the street in front of my house with a 3-1-1 call, then I'll have a conversation.
(LAUGHTER)
URBAN: He sounds like John Fetterman. That's a John Fetterman.
COATES: That sounds very specific. I mean --
ROCHA: I need that couch picked up in front of my house.
COATES: Hopefully, it's not a sectional. Thank you, everyone.
Still ahead, our first glimpse at Daniel Penny's police interview. This is his defense begins to make their case. The big question for everyone is, will he take the stand? Should he take the stand? Our trial team gets into that next. And later, a CNN exclusive, the CEO behind Bluesky, the new competitor to Elon Musk's X, joins me for her very first television interview. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Will he testify? That's what everyone wants to know tonight as Daniel Penny's team considers whether he should take the stand in his own defense. The Marine veteran is facing charges of manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide in connection to the subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely.
I want to bring in Gloria Pazmino, a CNN national correspondent. Also here, Elliot Williams, a CNN legal analyst. Gloria, let me begin with you. What are Daniel Penny's lawyers telling you about whether he will testify or not?
GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Laura, they've been putting on a case for two days now. They have presented a number of character witnesses and a psychiatric expert. And today, they said that they expect to call one more witness, a medical expert. But I spoke to the defense team today and they told me that they are still considering whether or not Mr. Penny will take the stand. His lawyers told me they have not ruled it out as of today.
So, we are expecting the defense to rest by the end of this week, most likely. So, we are going to be finding out very soon whether or not Mr. Penny takes a stand. Now, there's a number of reasons why he should or should not do that, but I imagine that his defense is weighing that exactly right now.
Remember, their defense, so far, has been justification. Daniel Penny was afraid that Jordan Neely was going to attack people. Therefore, he felt the need to intervene. And causation, that the chokehold did not kill Jordan Penny, but rather a combination of factors. That part of their defense has run into some issues in the last few days after the medical examiner said that the chokehold, without a doubt, according to her findings, had killed Neely.
COATES: Elliot, we're still learning and waiting to see if they're going to actually have him testify. What does that tell you? Would you have him testify?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I would not. And big picture, Laura. Of course, a defendant has a right not to testify under the Constitution. You have the right to remain silent. Literally, that's what the cop shows all say.
Most people think that if your liberty were on the line, you would choose to testify to clear your name and defend yourself. It's very risky. And most defendants don't testify for a number of reasons. One, everything -- any statement you've made or given can be thrown back at you by the prosecution. You can be impeached, you can be undermined, and also confronted with some of the strengths of the prosecution's case. You're giving them the opportunity to guide the questioning of you. It would be very risky.
This is a very emotional and sensitive case. I would just think it's probably best to leave it to the experts that they're calling, these doctors, and leave it at that.
COATES: You never know how you present to a jury as well, if they look at you sympathetically or otherwise. Gloria, though, a video was introduced into evidence of an interview between Penny and police following the fatal chokehold of Jordan Neely. What did that video show?
PAZMINO: Yeah, this is really interesting, Laura, because Elliot is right that, so far, this jury has only seen Daniel Penny sitting at the bench with his lawyers, and they've seen him in the video that most of the public has seen, of the altercation, the struggle between him and Jordan Neely.
But they also saw him in the video that we have there on the screen, and this is an interview between Daniel Penny and police detectives, which he did voluntarily. This was just hours after the incident. And this is the only other time that we hear and we see Penny talking and describing what happened. Take a listen to just a portion of what the jury got to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: How long had he been on there before you intervened?
DANIEL PENNY, FORMER MARINE FACING CHARGES OF MANSLAUGHTER AND CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE: I mean, he got on, he whipped his jacket off.
[23:40:00]
I mean, usually, I don't. It's a crackhead, you know what I mean. I just like let them do their thing. But then, well, basically, he started threatening people.
UNKNOWN: Once he starts doing that, that's when you try to subdue him?
PENNY: Yes. I'm not -- I wasn't trying to like injure him. I'm just trying to keep him from hurting anybody else. He is threatening people. That's what we learn in the Marine Corps. That's what you guys learn as -- as police officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAZMINO: I'm not trying to hurt him is what Daniel Penny told those officers. And you remember in the opening statements, the prosecution said, we don't believe that Mr. Penny wanted to kill Neely. We just believe that he went too far. That's why it's a manslaughter and a criminally negligent homicide charge.
You can see in the video, Mr. Penny refers to Jordan Neely as a crackhead. They also talked about Penny's disregard for Neely's humanity. And perhaps, this video is something that may replay in the jury's minds. So, if they put him on the stand, this is something that perhaps the defense could try to counter somehow.
COATES: Elliot, really quick, we also heard from a medical expert that testified that Jordan Neely likely suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. What impact could this possibly have for the jury?
WILLIAMS: It can cut both ways. The paranoid schizophrenia could suggest that the folks were frightened of his behavior. He was having an episode at the time. And because of the fear that people had in the train car, possibly, that could lay some predicate for Penny's actions. Now, it also makes him a more sympathetic victim. He was struggling with mental health issues. So, it's hard to see how the jury will take it. A lot of people might have mental illness in their own families. So, we'll just see.
COATES: Really strong points. Gloria, Elliot, thank you both so much.
Millions of users fed up with X are now jumping toward Bluesky. Could the social media company actually rival Elon Musk's platform? Alas, the 33-year-old executive in charge, Bluesky's CEO, is here with me for her very first T.V. interview. That's next.
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[23:45:00]
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COATES: The election is creating an earthquake in the social media universe. People are searching for an alternative to X, the platform owned by Elon Musk. But what will take its place? Well, among the possible competitors: Threads, the platform started by Instagram and Facebook, Mastodon, a decentralized social media network, and then there's Bluesky, it was born under X when it was called Twitter.
But Blue Sky is rapidly becoming the go-to place for refugees from X. It has topped Apple's app charts for nearly two weeks now. And you've likely seen celebrities announce that they are leaving X for Bluesky, like Barbra Streisand, who posted -- quote -- "Effective immediately, any comments I post will be on Bluesky." And Luke Skywalker himself, Mark Hamill, he posted a fake newspaper with the headline "Mark Hamill joins the Bluesky: A Star Wars icon takes flight to new platforms for hope and unity."
Today, the platform announced it hit a major milestone, 20 million total users. But it's still a long way to go, of course, before it catches up to X and its 550 million monthly active users.
Joining me now in her first television interview, Jay Graber, CEO of Bluesky. Jay, I'm really thrilled that you're here because people are leaning in fully on Bluesky and what it really is. I have to ask you first about this decentralized platform. What does that mean?
JAY GRABER, CEO, BLUESKY: Yeah, so it means that it looks like a normal app, but behind the scenes, there's a lot of different people who come in to create the experience, and it can have many more people come in and build it. So, the difference is between having like a single house or like a lot of hotel where you go in and there's a lobby, and then people are building other units out back, and any developer, someone who can code, can come in and build a new, you know, experience in the back.
And so, also the best example I have is email is built on something called the protocol. That's just a service that connects two services. So, if I have a Gmail account and you have a Yahoo account, I can email you and we can still talk. That's something that's decentralized. If everyone is just on one service, I can't email you or I can't message you from Twitter to Facebook, right, because those are centralized services.
COATES: I wonder what this past few weeks have been like for you. I mean, this has been so top of mind, a major headline for so many reasons, especially because there are a lot of people, celebrities included, who are flocking to Bluesky, and a lot of people joining. You're only 33 years old. You've got about what? Twenty employees or so. How are you managing the influx, the attention? What has this been like?
GRABER: Yeah, I mean, it's super exciting. We've been scaling up. There has been about a million people joining a day for the past week. And we've just been telling people how it works, showing them how it's different. And a lot of people are saying they're having a lot more fun here. They're having an experience where they're making friends online again and talking to people that is just something that they haven't experienced in a long time.
And so, we're growing that experience for more people and then showing people what else you can do. People have come on and started building things like, you know, an explorer that shows the whole network or a counter that shows the number of users coming in.
COATES: I wonder about the tone, because some people had been fleeing X, so to speak, in order to have a different experience, a different tone.
[23:50:05]
Was that the goal for you in creating Bluesky? It's not necessarily -- it hasn't just been created. It's many years in the works, frankly. But the tone and the environment and the community that you seek to create through Bluesky, is it intentionally distinct from, say, an X?
GRABER: Well, our goal is to give users an experience where they can have fun and feel safe. And so, we've already always focused a lot on trust and safety, making sure that users have an ability to have an experience that's, you know, free from bots and harassment and spam. And then, you know, that's, I think, really core to the experience.
But then beyond that, we want a place where people can express their creativity. And so, they can come on and, you know, explore an app store, basically, of all these feeds, it's like a marketplace of feeds, and then you can subscribe to the ones that you're interested in, sort of like subscribing to magazines. And so, people who like cat pictures are just looking at the cat feed. (LAUGHTER)
So, this lets people get really creative and discover their communities and find the places that they want to be within Bluesky.
COATES: How do you avoid a kind of echo chamber or is that not a concern?
GRABER: It's more about giving people a way to productively engage. And so, making sure that, you know, it is environment where discussions can happen and people can have, you know, different opinions, but people aren't getting harassed, and it's a place where, you know, people can split off and like form their own communities.
And it's really up to the user what they want to do. If you want to tune into everything going on around the whole network and see the most popular post for the last 24 hours, you can do that. Or you can go over to the forest feed or the moss feed and just look at really calm and relaxing nature pictures. So, it depends on what kind of user you are.
COATES: You know, X has often been associated, particularly given Elon Musk, to promote more right-leaning content. And I do wonder if Bluesky, given how it's sometimes described, are you intending for it to be a kind of new resistance platform?
GRABER: Really building it for everyone. And so, it's built for people to take it into their own hands and evolve it the ways that they want. And so, the goal is to give people all the tools, all the code, all the ability to customize their experience. And then I think social media should be basically common infrastructure that society gets to use and evolve it as society evolves, building a more democratic form of social media to reflect a democratic society.
COATES: Sometimes, society evolves. Sometimes, it devolves. I wonder what kind of guardrails are in place to avoid having content that is either highly offensive, problematic or detracts from what your intention of this open community might lead to.
GRABER: Yeah. So, we have a stackable approach to moderation. Our head of trust and safety was working in moderation at Twitter, and then stayed on under X, and then came over to us. And so, has experience with a lot of things at scale. And we've been making sure that the experience here stays at place where productive conversations can happen. And then people can layer on top of that. So, it's stackable because anyone else can come in and also run a moderation service.
COATES: You are exponentially increasing your users by the day. How many users do you expect to have, say, this time next year?
GRABER: It's hard to tell. I mean, you tell me.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: I mean, the world is telling you might be millions and millions and millions. How do you intend to monetize? GRABER: We're rolling out subscriptions, and we're going to be building out a larger developer ecosystem, and then providing services within that ecosystem.
COATES: Jay Graber, really fascinating. Thank you so much for joining.
GRABER: Thank you.
COATES: Up next, the emotional retirement from an all-time great.
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[23:55:00]
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COATES: Well, in case you missed it, the last match of Rafael Nadal's career ending in disappointment. The 22-time grand slam champ losing first in his own singles match, and then again when his country's team was eliminated from the tournament. Rafael, well, emotional. He didn't leave too upset, taking a trip down memory lane one last time before retirement.
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RAFAEL NADAL, SPANISH TENNIS PLAYER: I lost my first match in the Davis Cup, and I lost my last one. So, we'll close the circle.
(LAUGHTER)
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COATES: One thing AI can't recreate? Rafael's achievements. But something it can maybe recreate? James Bond or should we say Bond? James Bond. Maybe. Unless you ask Ben Affleck. Here is his answer when asked if AI was getting close to making its own version of the franchise.
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BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR: AI can write you excellent imitative verse that sounds a little beef and it cannot write you Shakespeare. The function of having two actors or three or four actors in a room and the taste to discern and construct that is something that currently entirely eludes AI's capability, and I think will for a meaningful period of time.
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COATES: Good point, Affleck. And lastly tonight, Prince Harry getting a neck tattoo from the country artist Jelly Roll. Really?
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JELLY ROLL, ARTIST: You give me your tattoo, and then you come and play the Invictus Games. That easy of a deal. PRINCE HARRY, DUKE OF SUSSEX: All right, screw it. Let's go. Let's do it. Where you want it?
JELLY ROLL: We got to go for the neck.
PRINCE HARRY: The neck? I was thinking like my lower back or my (bleep).
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COATES: What a way to announce Jelly Roll as the headliner for the closing ceremony of next year's Invictus Games. It's the international adaptive sport tournament for injured veterans and service personnel that Prince Harry started back in 2014. Don't worry, the tattoo is fake.
Hey, everyone, thank you so much for watching.
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"Anderson Cooper 360" starts right now.
