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Laura Coates Live

Mangione Charged With Murder As Crime Of Terrorism; President Biden Weighs In On Drone Reports; Police Focus On Motive In WI School Shooting; Democrats Wonder If Biden Is Quiet Quitting; Top Putin General Blown Off Outside Moscow Home. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 17, 2024 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Tonight, the two astronauts stuck on the International Space Station will have to wait until at least March now to return to Earth. NASA has once again delayed the launch of SpaceX Crew-10, which was set to dock with the ISS in February and bring them home. Those astronauts went to space in June. They were only supposed to stay for a week. But now, they are stuck.

Thank you for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, New York indicts the suspected CEO killer for murder as an act of terrorism, as police reveal what Luigi Mangione's mother told them before he was arrested. Plus, candlelight vigils in Madison, Wisconsin as we learn new information about the student shooter and the chaotic moments inside the school. And President Biden speaks about those reported drones for the first time as his administration tries to put an end to the hysteria. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

Well, the case against the suspected CEO killer just took a pretty major turn. Luigi Mangione is now facing a new charge that brands him as a terrorist. I'll explain all that in just a second.

But first, I want to focus on a dramatic detail revealed today that could be critical in the case against him. It's what his mother allegedly told police the night before he was arrested. Now, you may remember, she filed a missing person report over her son to San Francisco Police. That was back in November. Authorities were able to link that report to the photos of the suspect, and then they reached out to her about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH KENNY, CHIEF OF DETECTIVES, NYPD: They reached out to Mangione's mother in San Francisco very late on the 7th. They had a conversation where she didn't indicate that it was her son in the photograph, but she said it might be something that she could see him doing. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, that's a pretty big reveal coming from someone's mother, right? And all we've heard from the family up to this point was this statement from the day that he was arrested. It was released through his cousin. It says the family was shocked about the arrest.

Well, today, the Manhattan D.A. said it was Mangione's desire to cause shock that warranted him getting an upgraded charge of first-degree murder as returned by a grand jury. Now, he is facing 11 charges now in New York. And that first-degree murder charge, it's pretty rare. It requires some special and aggravating circumstances. But prosecutors believe they may have that very thing here. They've tied that charge, as well as second-degree murder charges, to a crime of terrorism.

D.A. Alvin Bragg says the extraordinary nature of the murder warrants the extraordinary charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This was a frightening, well planned, targeted murder, that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation. This was a killing that is intended to evoke terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, this certainly raises the stakes for his defense. And that may be the point. It's a very high-profile case, as you well know, with a whole lot of attention. People online have rallied in his defense. Some, that is, they elevated him to a kind of a folk hero. Others have expressed their anger toward the healthcare industry more broadly.

And sometimes, that anger has gone to such extremes as this: Wanted posters in Manhattan, featuring the names of prominent healthcare executives. The NYPD commissioner was quick to condemn during today's announcement. She even held up a prop to make her point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA TISCH, COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: "The New York Post" reported that some extreme activists were circulating a deck of cards with other most wanted CEOs to be targeted for assassination. These are the threats of a lawless, violent mob who would trade in their own vigilantism for the rule of law that protects us all. We don't celebrate murders, and we don't lionize the killing of anyone. And any attempt to rationalize this is a vile, reckless and offensive to our deeply held principles of justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, how exactly is Mangione going to mount his defense? I guess we'll find that out soon. His lawyer says that he is not going to fight his extradition, which paves the way for him to go back to New York as early as this week. I want to bring in John Miller, CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, Elie Honig, CNN senior legal analyst, Scott Bonn, a criminologist who is also the producer and star of "Serial Killers with Dr. Scott Bonn," and Mark Petrovich, he's an attorney representing the D.C. sniper, Lee Boyd Malvo.

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Glad to have all of you here right now. I'm going to begin with you here, Elie. This 11-count indictment alleges that he carried out the killing in furtherance of an act of terrorism. The D.A. makes this case that -- calling it the -- it was intended to evoke terror. You were a prosecutor in New York. Does the evidence support this new elevated charge?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think it does, Laura. A really interesting turn today. So, the safe and obvious charge in this case would have been a second-degree murder under New York law. The D.A. has charged that, important to keep in mind. All you have to show there as the prosecutor is an intentional killing.

What the twist was today is the D.A. has also charged an elevated first-degree murder charge. And in order to make that stick here, the D.A. is going to have to show that Mangione acted for a very specific motive, of causing terror or panic in the general public public or of trying to use an act of violence to influence or coerce public policy, presumably here related to healthcare.

So, it's going to be more that the D.A. has to prove to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt to get that first-degree charge. But I think when you look at the totality of the evidence, I think there's a strong case. And we heard the D.A., and the police commissioner laid out today, that that was exactly what Mangione was trying to do.

So, they have more they have to prove. But important to keep in mind, they also do have that sort of second-degree murder as a safety fallback provision in the indictment, too.

COATES: Mark, let me turn to you here. You represented a client, Lee Boyd Malvo, who also had a terrorism charge as part of the D.C. sniper case. What are the advantages for the prosecution to be able to use this terrorism charge, and how does the defense counteract it?

MARK PETROVICH, ATTORNEY, REPRESENTED D.C. SNIPER LEE BOYD MALVO: Well, the advantage clearly is, initially, to get the added and upgraded potential sentence should there be a finding of guilt with regard to that first-degree murder charge.

But there are other advantages, too. By charging first-degree murder and claiming terrorism as the subset with regard to that charge, they can claim, for instance, that this was an act that was based on an intent to intimidate and coerce the public.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

PETROVICH: They can bring in more evidence, a broader range of evidence --

COATES: Hmm.

PETROVICH: -- searches computers, searches files, searches -- internet searches, and find out information that shows they might have grievances with other people, that he might have had issues with other groups, and try to throw them in there in an overarching theme with regard to this intent to coerce or intimidate the public.

One other thing is during trial, they can utilize the highly pejorative moniker of terrorist and point to him and say, that's the terrorist, that's the one who's behind this terrorism.

And that has a way of demonizing the defendants during the trial. It makes it a lot more difficult for the defense to overcome. They have to be careful, though. They can't overplay their hand if they lay him out to be a horrible, terrible person and a high-level terrorist.

And it turns out he's just a troubled young man who needs some help, who didn't get his issues resolved, who has a lot of enduring qualities behind all this. Then, they're overplaying their hand and they run the risk of losing the credibility of the jurors, and that's a danger.

COATES: That could be very well, especially in New York, familiar, sadly, with terror on their soil as well. John, let me turn to you because according to Mangione's New York attorney, former CNN contributor Karen Agnifilo, he isn't going to fight extradition. He's due in court on Thursday to talk through the next steps. What are those next steps?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: The next steps are -- and I mean, I think, you know, Laura, that a single gun charge and a false I.D. charge in Pennsylvania are going to be the least of his problems. I think what Karen Friedman Agniflo is doing is saying, let's get the defendant back to New York where I can start to prepare a defense against a charge that offers a sentence of life without parole. Let's get into the discovery.

So, steps, get him back to New York. Steps, get him in front of a state Supreme Court judge. I think that's going to be Gregory Carro, very experienced state Supreme Court judge here in New York. Let's dispose of the matter of bail and custody. Nobody who's indicted on first-degree murder is getting bail. So, he'll be held in a New York jail. And let's get to work on getting the discovery, let's see the evidence from the case, and let that lawyer start to work with her client.

In the meantime, importantly, the investigation is going on in the background with detectives still going through computers, looking at DNA, looking at video canvases to piece together his steps. None of that has stopped.

COATES: And, of course, that terrorism additional charge now in the elevation gives a broader brush with which to paint this investigation in many ways. Scott, let me turn to you because I'm really intrigued by this detail of Mangione's mother telling the police in San Francisco that she could imagine him committing or doing something like this, to paraphrase what she said, when thinking about the profile of Luigi Mangione. What does that statement tell you?

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SCOTT BONN, CRIMINOLOGIST, AUTHOR, PRODUCER: Well, it says something to me about both Mangione's mindset as well as his mother's perspective. And I think what you hear there is an honest expression of concern and love by a mother who had watched her son spiral and withdraw from society over a couple of years, withdraw from friends, work and, ultimately, family. And she no doubt was aware of some of these obsessions, compulsions that he had with corporate America, perhaps even his disdain for the healthcare industry.

And so, this may actually be the worst fears of a mother realized, and I believe was truly an act or an expression of her legitimate concern in that moment.

COATES: Elie, the prosecutor in me wonders if she would be somebody to call to testify about what she knew at trial.

HONIG: It's a fascinating question. Gosh, I would never call the mother of a defendant in trial for so many reasons. I don't think the testimony would be helpful. I think you would evoke sympathy for the defendant. And Laura, this is a great example of what's interesting and important in the real world. And this news is fascinating. It's not necessarily going to be admissible in court.

The fact that the mother said, it seems like something he could have done, I don't think a judge is going to allow that in. It's not really relevant to his guilt, whether his mom thinks he could have done it or not. So, I think it's a really important piece of reporting to understanding the story, but I don't see that mother ever taking this stand, certainly not called by the prosecution at a trial.

COATES: Unless it's tied to some other detail that we are not yet privy to, John, that links something else. Let me turn to you on this final point. Law enforcement made a point to denounce the public celebration of the killing. And this folk hero says that he seems to have been able to achieve. What are you hearing from your NYPD sources as to why they felt compelled to make such a point of it today?

MILLER: This is something that Police Commissioner Tisch, Deputy Commissioner for Intelligence and Counterterrorism Rebecca Weiner, the Detective Bureau, the Intelligence Bureau -- they're all very concerned with this. And why?

Let's look at what we see and what we know. We know when there's one school shooting, there's a contagion effect. After that, there's another and another. We know when there is radicalization going on with a terrorist group like ISIS, that they prey on people who are either looking to get involved because they embrace the ideology or because they want to do something because they want the notoriety.

They see that building in the background here with wanted posters of CEOs on lamp posts and with, you know, decks of cards with CEOs and their pictures and their compensation as targets. And they're trying to head that off by saying that they're going to handle this directly and forcefully, and that this is not a game. It's not a video game where you attack the victim and they get up for the next round of play.

This is the father of two children who was gunned down, shot in the back in the most cowardly way by someone who had an ideology, which has been charged correctly as terrorism. They don't want to see it again.

COATES: Gentlemen, I learned from each of you this evening. Thank you so much for joining.

Still ahead, new information about the Madison School shooter. What we're learning about her prior experience with firearms. This as the community holds an emotional vigil to mourn the lives lost. A student who was inside the school when the shots rang out joins me next.

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COATES: President Joe Biden speaking out for the first time on the mysterious drone sightings across the northeast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: There's nothing mysterious, apparently, but they're checking it all out. I think it's just one -- there's a lot of drones authorized up there. We're following it closely. So far, no sense of danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, the House Intelligence Committee received a classified briefing earlier today. Members of that committee seeking to downplay drone risks and ease public concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): There are about a hundred incidents that they're still digging into, so we need to still hear about those. But overall, I didn't hear evidence of a foreign power threat or some other nefarious activity.

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): There's a lot of rumor out there that this is radiation sniffing or chemical sniffing. This is not a federal government operation. We're very, very confident of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, joining me now, Republican State Senator Jon Bramnick from New Jersey. He's also running for New Jersey governor in the 2025 republican primary. Senator, good to have you back.

President Biden and the House Intel Committee members were briefed today, reiterating what federal officials have been saying for days now. No evidence so far of any nefarious activity. Does that mean case closed for you?

STATE SEN. JON BRAMNICK (R-NJ): Unfortunately, it's such a slow rollout from Washington that the suspense is built up in New Jersey. We brought the entire legislature down to a secure location a few weeks ago with the head of the state police, who seemed to be concerned, talked about incidents involving large drones, that the state helicopter saw the drone turned its lights off and fled, people heard about this situation.

So now you're starting to get an answer from Washington, but then you hear the acting president-elect say, well, they're hiding something. So, this is the problem. You've got distrust about government when the president is saying something different than the president-elect, that we waited three weeks for any kind of answers.

[23:20:03]

And that's the last thing we need in government now because now we have conspiracy theorists running around New Jersey with all kinds of crazy ideas.

COATES: So, what would it take in many ways in order to be able to feel confident for the voters, for the American public, for people at large to essentially say, I believe what you're saying?

You've got the governor of New Jersey, Phil Murphy, being briefed by the FBI, that federal drone detection systems were delivered to New Jersey. You had the DHS. You got the FBI, you got the FAA, the DOD, the Alphabet City of Washington, D.C. Have all issued a joint statement. Same conclusions.

So, what more would you need to see?

BRAMNICK: It's just going to take a while. When some suspense builds up over two or three weeks and people walk around confused about these large drones, which they saw, including Governor Christie over his house, it's going to take a while before people believe in government.

And I think more and more talk from Washington -- I'm starting to see that Congress people, even Andy Kim and now Gottheimer, are starting to change their position. Governor Murphy is now saying, we don't need any help. He's saying it's not a problem.

But, you know, when you create this type of panic by lack of information, it doesn't go away quickly. So, let's hope that everybody comes back to earth and not the drones, of course, and people start believing back in government, which is my hope.

COATES: It sounds like it's not so much the lack of information, but the pace at which it was given. And also, the way of decisively saying, early on, to quell any fears. We'll see if they learn their lesson going forward.

But there are some Republican lawmakers on Capitol Hill who are suggesting that an adversary may be involved. You have Congressman Mike McCaul believing these are Chinese spy drones even though -- even though the Intel Community has said there is no foreign nexus.

I wonder, given what you just said, can any growing speculation in that arena really make things worse?

BRAMNICK: Well, I think the president-elect, it would be helpful if he came out and he said, listen, he has been briefed, and he also believes there's no outside force. I think that would be helpful.

So, hopefully, the Pentagon will reach out to the president-elect because that does assume there is -- assuming the acting -- the president-elect is correct, that doesn't help the situation either. So, hopefully, shortly, everyone will be on the same page. That's going to be a slow process.

COATES: Well, a slow process for a bureaucracy. What do you mean, State Senator Jon Bramnick? I've never heard of it. Thank you so much for joining us today. We will see if they heed your advice. Thank you so much.

BRAMNICK: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, tonight, new reporting about the Madison School shooter's turbulent home life. This as police pieced together a picture of her troubled past. A fellow student from the school joins me to describe what he saw next.

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[23:27:50]

COATES: New tonight, "The Washington Post" reports that the 15-year- old female student who shot up her Christian school in Madison, Wisconsin had a -- quote -- "turbulent home life" -- unquote. That's according to court records that show that her parents divorced and remarried multiple times. The Post also reports that the shooter had been enrolled in therapy.

CNN has also learned she joined a local shooting range with her father. This Facebook photo shows her at the range in August, four months before the school shooting. CNN has reached out to the range, but we have not yet heard back.

You know, it's not yet clear how she obtained the gun that was used in the shooting. And there's still no clear motive. And officers say a -- quote -- "combination of factors may have led to the shooting." This is all coming as the community tonight gathered for a vigil.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: And joining me now are two members of the community, Mr. Brube and his son, Angel, who is a seventh grader at Abundant Life Christian School. Thank you both for joining me during what is an absolutely difficult time.

I want to begin with you, Angel, if we can, because we all are just so concerned about what it has been like for you and your classmates. Can you tell me what it was like for you yesterday?

ANGEL BRUBE, SEVENTH GRADER, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: It was very unexpected. And it was also very scary just because I didn't know what was about to happen. And it was also like in the middle of nowhere because we were just chilling in class and it just came. And it's really something you wouldn't expect in a small city in Madison, especially not in a Christian school.

COATES: Did you hear the shots when they were fired?

BRUBE: I did not hear the first ones, but I did hear a few shots.

COATES: What did you think it was?

BRUBE: Um, it wasn't -- I didn't really know at the time that they were gunshots because they just sounded like footsteps that are really loud or banging.

[23:30:00]

So, I just thought it was just -- I don't know. Just something going on.

COATES: What did you hear after that?

BRUBE: Um, I didn't really hear much after that until the police came. And they just like yelled, we're coming in, Madison Police Department, and whatnot. And they came in with long rifles.

COATES: Angel, did you know the teacher or the student who was killed or anyone else who was injured?

BRUBE: I am actually unaware of who were the ones that were injured and who died. But besides the teacher, I don't know anybody. But the teacher, yes, I did know her, and she was a really good person.

COATES: Hmm. Had you had her as a teacher?

BRUBE: Yes, many times before.

COATES: What was she like?

BRUBE: She was always very kind and caring. And she was also very friendly and communicative.

COATES: Mr. Brube, I can only imagine, I'm a mother myself, and I cannot imagine as a parent what this must be like for you, to have even known this happened at your child's school. Can you talk to me a little bit about when you learned of the shooting and what you did?

MR. BRUBE, FATHER OF STUDENT AT ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: I started hearing the police. I have a business close to the school. I can say probably about a quarter of a mile away. And I got a frontage road, and I got the main road, the freeway.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

MR. BRUBE: And I heard the first police car passing by, and the second one, and the third one, but it was really fast, like something really bad was really happening.

But then I got my way in through the school premises. As soon as I went in there, I started like looking around, and I found one of the teachers. He came and hugged me and said, Angel is fine. We're getting him out through one of the front doors back to the chapel.

So, I got out of that area, and then I started seeing the kids passing by. And everybody was crying. All the kids were crying. They were like -- the look on their face is something that I would never forget because it was really sad to see many, many kids crying, not knowing what's going to happen and shaking. So, I started helping them the way through the chapel.

And as I see more police coming in and helping, I decided to go inside and help the staff of the school, be organized with the kids and comfort them. I found -- I found Angel right there. I looked for him. And when I saw him, it was like a real peace moment though it was really sad to know that a teacher was down.

COATES: Angel, just hearing your father describe what it was like to try to get to you, to see so many of your friends and other students feeling that worry, can you take us back to that moment for you? Did you feel that way?

BRUBE: Yes. So, when I got to the church because it's the school, and then there's the church in a whole different building --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

BRUBE: -- so we all had to run to the church and to like the chapel area. And there was just everybody there. You know, people were like calling their parents and crying. There were also people like crying for their siblings, just like not knowing if their siblings were coming either, if they were like hurt. So, then I saw my dad, and it really made me feel better, too.

COATES: Well, Mr. Brube, Angel, I'm so sorry to have met you both this way. But I really thank you for sharing your experience, and we just wrap our arms around your entire community tonight. Thank you.

MR. BRUBE: Thank you.

COATES: Still ahead, Kamala Harris returning to the limelight with a message to her young supporters that's raising new questions about her plans for her future. Plus, is President Biden quite quitting? The new criticism being launched from some in his very own party. There are just days left until his exit.

[23:35:01]

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KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No one can walk away. We must stay in the fight.

COATES: Vice President Kamala Harris reemerging with a new message to supporters who are still discouraged about the election outcome, urging them to come back ready after the holidays.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: In fact, I challenge you to come back ready. Ready to chart our path to the future. Chin up.

[23:40:00]

Shoulders back. Forever impatient for change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Lots to talk about tonight with our political roundup. Let's bring in CNN senior reporter Edward-Isaac Dovere. He has new reporting on Harris's future plans. Also joining us, Democratic strategist Chuck Rocha. Glad to have you both. Isaac, what's the new information? What are you hearing about her potential future choices?

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well, there's a governor's race in California in 2026. Gavin Newsom, the current governor, is term-limited, and there is a race already underway to succeed him. But Harris has been rumored to be a possible candidate in that.

And the advisors and friends of the vice president that I spoke with over the last couple days said to me that there is really a divide. There are some people who feel like she should run for governor. She would probably clear the field and it would be a place for her to land. Then there are others who think that she should run for president again in 2028.

The reality, though, is that she can't do both. Most people agree. So, she has to pick one or the other. One person close to her said to me that she would need to see running for governor, though, as more of a capstone than a stepping stone for her political career. And another person who is hoping that she runs for president again said to me that running for governor would be a step down, that she needs to look at it that way and not think to do that when she could be in a field again for president.

But, look, in a democratic primary in 2020 on the presidential side, it is very unlikely at the moment, from how people are looking at it, that she would have an easy time of it. They would certainly be crowded. And there is this fear from the people who are very much supportive of her that it would be bad for her to follow up losing in 2024 given all of everything that happened this year with being rejected by her own party, if that's where it would go. That's the gamble that she's got in front of her.

COATES: Which hand should she play?

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Look, I think there's a lot of things going on here. The first thing you got to think about is, in California, if she wanted to run for governor, she has every right to run for governor.

If you look at the election results in California in the last election, just made me think about this, Isaac, is that, because I've been looking at these California congressional races, she got 1.8 million less votes than four years prior to with Joe Biden. There was a dramatic downturn.

So, I don't know if she would clear the field. I've heard the same thing. She'd clear the field. Javier Becerra is rumored to be running. There's a lot of other people rumored to be running. I don't know if she would run in 2028, but the 2028 race starts now.

If I've not been called by two, I've been called already by four people who want to run for president, and she ain't one of them. So, she's got to do one or the other, but she's got to move pretty quickly because things are moving now.

COATES: Well, some people are saying that who is not moving enough is President Joe Biden, or may he's moving to clear the field for the president-elect before his term is actually over. I want you, guys, to listen to what former Obama aides are accusing him of doing in terms of seeding the spotlight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON FAVREAU, PODCAST HOST: Trump isn't president yet. A fact that's getting easier and easier to forget is Joe Biden seems to be disappearing from the public stage as his term comes to an end.

JON LOVETT, PODCAST HOST: Joe Biden believes in tradition and institutions, and we should only have one president at a time, and I think it's a surprising choice to allow it to be Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Do they have a point?

ROCHA: They do have a point. I was listening to this podcast today. I took a little run, and I was out listening to it. It made me laugh because I remember, they talked about Obama saying there's just one president at a time. And I had forgotten that because they were saying how much he said there was only one president at a time when he had lost. And so, that made a lot of sense to me. But also, there's a lot of Democrats that are just mad. And so, they want to see him do something bold here at the end and not just -- I don't want to say slink away because he's had a good presidency. I think he has done a lot of good things. But Democrats are just really mad, almost pissed. But they're really pissed, too.

COATES: What do you see?

DOVERE: It is a mood in the White House that is grieving, that is somber. They really feel defeated by this. On the other hand, they look at the situation and say, oh, remember six months ago when all the Democratic Party wanted him to get out of the way, now they want him more in the way?

There is also, I think, somewhat of a practical consideration here of what he can do with executive power. There are things. But whatever it would be would certainly put a target on whatever that action is for Donald Trump when he comes in.

COATES: I mean, it is a lame duck. We've seen that tradition right now. It's only less -- a little over a month until the next inauguration. But there's also a CNN exclusive that's happening right now where Senator Jon Ossoff, who's the first Senate Democrat, by the way, to have an official meeting with DNI pick, Tulsi Gabbard, talking about having an open-mind approach to her nomination, knowing that they're meeting -- quote -- "help me understand her view of the world and her view of the job."

You've covered Gabbard a lot. How do you read his statement?

DOVERE: Well, every senator should have an open mind when they approach any nominee for any president. I think -- let's see what happens when the voting comes. But Gabbard would, it seems like, potentially need some Democratic votes if there are Republicans that we are expecting to not be with her.

[23:45:04]

But, look, it could also be that all those Republicans support her. Donald Trump has made clear that he expects all the Senate Republicans to support all of his choices. And so far, we haven't seen anything to suggest that won't happen, in fact, with how a lot of Republicans in the Senate have turned around on Pete Hegseth from initially being skeptical of him, opposed him, to now, it seems, like being ready to vote for him to be in defense.

ROCHA: Let me cut through all this fine reporting and tell you exactly what's going on with Ossoff. He's the Democrat running in the most Republican state that has a Democratic senator. So, he's up for reelection in just two years. On this program, we've talked about the Senate being six year-term. There are certain pressures you can put on others. He's feeling a lot of heat because he's got to run for re- election in just two years. And Donald Trump overwhelmingly won his state.

So, this is just his political guys around him saying, hey, hey, let's not just jump right out there and go no deal on any of these Republicans, we're going to play both sides of this, because he needs a lot of Republicans to vote for him in just two years.

COATES: Well, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, who has been finding common ground with RFK Jr. on issues, I think, of what clean air and water, on food safety issues, she's not in the same boat as Ossoff but --

DOVERE: Well, I mean, look, Gillibrand, eight years ago, was the person who said that she would vote against all of Donald Trump's nominees to the cabinet. Now, she's showing more openness to this. It is this question of whether Kennedy will find a nexus of support among some Democrats who agree with him on some of the food issues, even though they are opposed to him on so many other things.

And at the same time, that as Republicans are being resistant to Kennedy because he is pro-choice, that he has been telling people that he understands that Donald Trump will be the president, he is anti- abortion, and that will be how things go. All of those considerations go up against each other.

ROCHA: There's a lot of Democrats, including this one right here, that's with him on the food issues, but what they don't want is for them to vote for him, and then there'd be another pandemic in a year and a half, three years, God forbid, ever, but then, him say, I don't know if we need any of these vaccines, maybe we should just go do whatever (INAUDIBLE) or whatever else they've been doing.

COATES: Well, Isaac Dovere, Chuck Rocha, we'll see what happens. Thank you both so much.

Up next, tonight, the Hollywood-style assassination inside Moscow. A scooter rigged with explosives kills one of Putin's top generals. Ukraine taking credit. So, how do they pull it all off? And what might Putin do in response? That's next.

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COATES: Tonight, Russia formally acknowledging the death of one of Vladimir Putin's top generals, and Ukraine says it killed him with an exploding scooter in Moscow. The blast killed Igor Kirillov, head of Russia's radiological, biological, and chemical defense forces. Sounds like it's from a spy movie in many respects, but it's reality.

And video from a nearby vehicle shows just what happened. Two men walked outside of an apartment building. A source confirmed to CNN that one of them is Kirillov. But we don't know which. To the left, you see what looks like a scooter propped up next to a lamppost. And as the men walk by, suddenly, there's an explosion.

We won't show what happened next. But the blast likely triggered by a remote control. Aftermath video that Russian media aired showed a damaged scooter at the blast site being placed in a black bag by authorities.

Ukraine immediately claimed responsibility, accusing him of using chemical weapons against Ukrainian troops and spreading Kremlin-backed conspiracy theories like the U.S. had bio labs in Ukraine.

Russia is vowing revenge, but only those inside the Kremlin really knows what that revenge might look like.

Joining me now, Bill Browder, CEO of Hermitage Capital Management, head of the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign, and author of "Red Notice" and "Freezing Order." Also, here, Glenn Corn, a retired CIA senior executive.

I want to begin with you, Glenn. Ukraine is reaching deeper into Russia, closer to Vladimir Putin and his inner circle. How would Ukraine pull off an attack like this?

GLENN CORN, RETIRED CIA SENIOR EXECUTIVE: Well, it would be -- if this is the Ukrainians, it probably is, it's a very well-conducted operation. To pull that off inside of the Moscow beltway or the ring road takes a lot of skill.

It would require a lot of casing of the target, a lot of discipline and then, of course, selecting the type of device. It's the timing, which, you know, my understanding is 6:00 in the morning. So, probably trying to avoid civilian casualties. But my understanding is the other target that was killed was his assistant, Ilya Polikarpov.

So, you know, in the intelligence business, that is very good work.

COATES: Hmm. Let me talk to you, Bill, because I want to get an understanding of who exactly this person was and how important Igor Kirillov was to Vladimir Putin.

BILL BROWDER, CEO OF HERMITAGE CAPITAL MANAGEMENT, HEAD OF GLOBAL MAGNITSKY JUSTICE CAMPAIGN, AUTHOR, PUTIN CRITIC: Well, he was a very bad man. He was, as you mentioned, involved in radiological and biological warfare. He's on the sanctions, various sanction lists. He has taken responsibility for all sorts of attacks on Ukraine. And in the military world, he's, you know, a real military target, a high- value target.

And I think that the Ukrainians doing this has had several effects. One is it's humiliating for Putin, that he can be -- his top guys could be hit in Moscow.

[23:55:01]

And second, I think it sends fear into the hearts of many other top guys who are doing terrible killing in Ukraine. And that fear is, I'm sure, palpable in Moscow right now.

COATES: Given that humiliation, as you say, how do you think Putin will react?

BROWDER: Well, you know, Putin is busy doing all the most terrible things without this type of humiliation. Putin has been bombing civilians in Ukraine. He has been sending all of his soldiers and North Korean soldiers on meat waves where all sorts of people are dying on the battlefield. It's kind of hard for me to see that Putin is going to do anything more than he has already done.

COATES: Hmm.

BROWDER: You know, he has claimed and offered revenge on so many different occasions. And, you know, he has had a terrible war where he is doing terrible to Ukrainians, and they have every right to fight back.

COATES: Glenn, on that point, Ukraine has suffered some setbacks, to say the least, on the battlefield over the last several months. This has been a prolonged invasion into Ukraine. Are we seeing a shift in strategy with these more targeted assassinations now?

CORN: Well I think that one, we should remember that the Russians have been conducting assassination operations in Ukraine for several years now.

The Ukrainians have been responding since February of 2022 with some very effective strikes inside of Russia, using some of the technology that they've developed, some of their own capabilities, and then recently some weapon systems that were approved for use by the U.S. very recently. And they've probably been involved in some other targeted assassinations in response to what the Russians are doing.

As my colleagues said, the Russians have been inflicting a great deal of damage and terrorizing the Ukrainian people for years now, going back to 2014. So, the Ukrainians see this as a justified target and a significant operation.

COATES: Do you anticipate there being a response by Putin?

CORN: I'm sure that the Russians will look to respond, although I also agree that the Russians were already doing much of this. So, it's hard to see what else they could do. They're doing it not just in Ukraine, but they've extended their sabotage operations to Europe.

And if we remember, they attempted to kill the CEO of Rheinmetall, and they've conducted assassination operations all over Europe. You know, we can remember Alexander Litvinenko (ph), who was killed, the attempted killing of Mr. Skripal, General Skripal, who was living in U.K.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

CORN: Sergei Skripal. So, this is nothing new for the Russians.

COATES: Well, Bill, do you think that the -- quote, unquote -- "success" of this operation would encourage you Ukraine to conduct more targeted assassinations?

BROWDER: Well, I think that, of course, they're going to conduct more assassinations and they probably should, given all the terrible atrocities that the Russians are inflicting on them.

You know, it's a -- this is an all-out war. You know, the Russians want to just attack Ukraine and then want to sit back and say, well, nothing is going to happen to us. Well, you know, war has casualties on both sides, and if the Russians inflict casualties on the Ukrainians, they should expect there will be casualties on their side, and that may be in the form of targeted assassinations and it may be in the form of Ukrainians blowing up oil refineries or weapon depots.

But the Russians shouldn't sit back and think that their territory is off limits if they're constantly bombarding the Ukrainian territory.

COATES: Bill Browder, Glenn Corn, thank you both so much.

CORN: Thank you.

COATES: And in case you missed it, everyone's favorite fictional Navy pilot is getting a real-life medal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM CRUISE, ACTOR: I feel the need, the need for speed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, today, the U.S. Navy awarding Tom Cruise their highest civilian honor, the Distinguished Public Service Award. Secretary of the Navy saying, Cruise's work has inspired generations to serve in our Navy and Marine Corps.

And he's not wrong. That first iconic military role, Maverick, in the 1986 hit "Top Gun" caused such a spike in enthusiasm that the Navy set up recruitment tables at movie theaters.

And Cruise kept them coming. He gave us Sergeant Ron Kovic in "Born On The 4th of July," Lieutenant Daniel Kaffee in "A Few Good Men,' and finally, Maverick again in the 2022 "Top Gun" sequel. The ceremony took place in London where Cruise is busy filming his next project. So, in the words of Maverick --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: The end is inevitable, Maverick. Your kind is headed for extinction.

CRUISE: Maybe so, sir. But not today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Talk to me, Goose. Thanks for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" starts now.

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