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Laura Coates Live

Marc Fogel Visits The White House After Release From Russia; Elon Musk Defends DOGE In The Oval Office; Kash Patel Accused Of Ordering FBI Firings Before Confirmation; U.S. Military Backs Out STEM Recruiting Conference; Sonya Massey's Family Settle For $10 Million. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 11, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: We begin with that breaking news out of the White House and the remarkable release of an American teacher, Marc Fogel. This after more than three years in a Russian prison, he returned home tonight. Here you see him with President Trump at the White House just a few moments ago. It marks the end of a nightmare that started in August of 2021 when Fogel was arrested in Russia for possession of medical marijuana and then wrongfully detained. Listen to what he told President Trump inside the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC FOGEL, DETAINED IN RUSSIA: I feel like the luckiest man on Earth right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Fogel arrived this evening after a long flight from Russia. Here you see him drinking a beer on the flight shortly after his freedom was announced to the entire world. And then the moment his family has been waiting for all these years, touchdown right here on U.S. soil. I want to get right to Jeff Zeleny who's been at the White House covering this all throughout the day for us. Jeff, before we get to how this all came together, can you tell us more about what Fogel described to President Trump?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's pretty extraordinary. Normally when we see American prisoners are released, they go right to a military institution and they sort of tell their stories, but we heard Marc Fogel telling his story to the president and indeed the American people and the world. He talked about his captivity. He talked about how he was hospitalized for more than a hundred days, how he received so many injections. And his family had been making a broad appeal during the Biden administration on humanitarian grounds. They were worried about his condition.

So giving a window there into how he was doing and how he was holding up, talking about the hospitalization, talking about the prison guards. So certainly an extraordinary window on a whirlwind day for Marc Fogel, a 63-year-old Pennsylvania school teacher. He and his wife were working in Moscow at the Anglo-American school and he was arrested about three and a half years ago on possession of marijuana and that's what led to this, but certainly a big moment the first major prisoner release of this new Trump administration.

COATES: We know that Steve Witkoff went to Russia to secure Fogel's release but how did this all come together?

ZELENY: It certainly came together very quietly and very fast as well. And this is the beginning of clearly a new chapter in Russian-U.S. relations. There's no doubt about that. So the president has said he wanted to end the Ukraine War on day one. Of course, that was simply aspirational. But there is movement. There is no question about it. And having Steve Witkoff, who's the president's longtime friend, but also the Middle East envoy, fly to Moscow personally and to pick him up, Marc Fogel up, was certainly extraordinary.

But take a listen to one more extraordinary moment in the diplomatic reception room as Marc Fogel saw the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOGEL: It's very difficult to articulate how proud I am of you, how proud I am of what you've done, and being back in my country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZEELENY: So certainly, that was standing right outside of the White House as he arrived here on a very snow-covered night in Washington. And Laura, this really also ends a chapter of a very -- along a family dialogue as well. Marc Fogel's 95-year-old mother in Pennsylvania made a personal appeal to Donald Trump at a campaign rally, the one that we all know so well in Butler, Pennsylvania. Moments before that assassination attempt on his life, she asked him to repeat her son's name so he would remember. And he certainly had that in mind here.

So this is something that he's been working on. And the president said there will be one more prisoner release tomorrow, not giving any more details of that. The question we don't have an answer to at this hour is, what was the exchange? There always is an exchange, or generally is a Russian prisoner exchange as well. So we likely will learn that tomorrow as well, Laura.

COATES: We will wait to see. It must be a very happy moment for his mother and his family of course. Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.

[23:05:02]

I want to bring in CNN global affairs analyst, Kimberly Dozier, but Kim, first, let's just listen to more of what Fogel said to President Trump tonight upon his release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOGEL: I feel like the luckiest man on earth right now. And I want you to know that I am not a hero in this at all. And President Trump is a hero. These men that came from the diplomatic service are heroes. The senators and representatives that passed legislation in my honor to get me home are the heroes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, Kim, Secretary of State Marco Rubio saying that this is now the 10th American to come home under the new Trump administration since he took office. How big of a win is this for the Trump administration given, of course, we didn't show you as part of his statements towards President Putin thanking him for allowing this to also happen?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, it is a big win for the Fogel family, for the Trump administration, but every single leader who gave up these jailed Americans and allowed them to return back to the United States is trying to curry favor with this White House. They know it is a win for President Trump in his first month in office, and that is how you get in the good graces of whichever White House you're trying to impress.

I had Biden administration officials griped to me in the past that, you know, there was a big exchange of Russians and Americans last year, but they couldn't get Fogel out. The Russians wouldn't let Fogel go. It felt almost as if they were holding him in reserve for whoever was the next president.

COATES: Or perhaps who they also maybe want to release. Any insight as to why they would have held off? Surely, they could have released him sooner. And I'll read this before you answer. The National Security advisor, Make Waltz saying this. This release is a quote, "a show of good faith from the Russians and a sign we are moving in the right direction to end the brutal and terrible war in Ukraine." Is that how you see it?

DOZIER: You know, I can't get into the heads of the Russians who decided, yes, we're going to do this, but going into a tough negotiation with the Trump administration about the ultimate fate of Ukraine, with Trump already having telegraphed that he's threatening sanctions and he's threatening to arm Ukraine if Putin doesn't come to the negotiating table and agree to stop fighting, stop the war. Well, this is a way to put some credit on the board on Putin's side.

And so that they go into this administration with -- you know, Trump has signaled to both sides with comments in the past few days saying Ukraine could end up being Russian or it could end up being independent. He's signaling both men, the leaders of both countries, that the deal making is open. Show me what you got. So you've got the Secretary of Treasury heading to Kyiv to do a deal with Zelenskyy on rare earth minerals for the United States.

And Trump has also signaled to Putin, you know, show me what you can deliver and perhaps will come down on the side of you keeping more Ukrainian territory than other NATO countries think is acceptable, for instance.

COATES: I do wonder, I mean, what you make of this quote, "exchange," because the U.S. has not actually suggested or said, as far as we know right now, who exactly they'd be swapping for Fogel as is accustomed when you hear this prisoner exchanges. But the hostage envoy earlier suggested that it would be nonviolent people. That was the phrase they used. Any insight as to why, in addition to what you're talking about, is it normal to have a release without an exchange already detailed and public?

DOZIER: It is -- it fights against the transparency and it also goes against what the Trump administration or that President Trump himself in the past, the criticism he's leveled against the Biden administration for some of the people that they released, like Viktor Bout, in exchange for getting American hostages out.

So, by saying that this was a nonviolent person, maybe it was a person who'd been jailed for financial crime or -- we have no idea. Perhaps we'll find out. And if this administration wants to show the transparency that President Trump talked about tonight in the Oval Office in one of his long impromptu press conferences, then hopefully we'll find out in the next 24 hours or so who got released to get Marc Fogel out.

[23:10:03]

COATES: We will see. And I don't know that we'll hear the word Putin in the same sentence as altruistic in this endeavor. We'll see what the strategy behind all of this will be. Kim, thank you so much. And be sure to tune in to CNN tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. Trump's special envoy for the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, will be on CNN News Central.

Just hours before President Trump appeared with Marc Fogel there in the White House, he had another visitor. This one, this time in the Oval Office. Of course, it was Elon Musk. The billionaire tasked with gutting the government took questions while sporting a black MAGA hat. One of his sons, he was there as well, at times floating near Trump, or maybe sitting on the floor other times, or on his dad's shoulders for a lot of it as well. And during it all, Trump and his first buddy made big claims about what they've uncovered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Some of the things that we found, which are shocking, billions and billions of dollars in waste, fraud, and abuse.

ELON MUSK, U.S. SPECIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE: What we're finding is that a bunch of the fraud is not even going to Americans. So I think we can all agree that if there's going to be fraud, it should at least go to Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So what does that fraud and abuse look like? Well, they tossed out some examples.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSK: There are quite a few people in the bureaucracy who have extensively a salary of a few hundred thousand dollars, but somehow manage to accrue tens of millions of dollars in net worth while they are in that position. And there's crazy things like we just questioned the examination of social security, and we've got people in there that are 150 years old.

TRUMP: As an example, a man has a contract for three months and the contract ends, but they keep paying him for the next 20 years, you know, because nobody ends a contract. You've got a lot of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Examples? Yeah, but one problem. They gave no evidence for those examples. Zero receipts. Not much transparency from a group Musk claim is all about maximum transparency. And as for his own potential conflicts of interest, you know, like those billions in contracts in his company they have with the government, well, he says it won't slip past the public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSK: All of our actions are fully public. So if you see anything, you say like, wait a second, hey, that seems like maybe that's, you know, there's a conflict there. I don't think people are going to be shy about saying that. They'll say it immediately. I fully expect to be scrutinized and get a daily proctology exam, basically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Let's hope not. But the public won't actually get that good of a look. Musk is actually filing a confidential financial disclosure, scurrying the kind of scrutiny someone who's elected would actually receive. And the actions he's taking aren't as fully public as he's making it seem. This is the DOGE X page. It gives very little detail about what's actually being cut. Definitely not the kind of radical oversight that Musk is touting or the kind of evidence needed to prove the widespread fraud that is being alleged.

And let's not forget, some of what DOGE and the White House have already shared turned out to be not true. Remember the false claim that the U.S. sent $50 million worth of condoms to Gaza? Musk says you can count on him to set the record straight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSK: Some of the things that I say will be incorrect and should be corrected. So nobody's going to bet a thousand. I mean, we will make mistakes but we'll act quickly to correct any mistakes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Joining me now, Democratic Congresswoman from New Mexico, Melanie Stansbury. She is the highest ranking Democrat on the DOGE subcommittee. Congresswoman, let me start where he left off, and the idea of not betting a thousand, gonna make mistakes, there's transparency, we'll all catch him on it. Do you have confidence that there is the level of transparency needed to find anything? REP. MELANIE STANSBURY (D-NM): Well, first of all, why don't we point

out the obvious that the richest man on planet Earth is standing behind Donald Trump and the resolute desk in the Oval Office wearing a baseball cap, an unelected, unvetted and unqualified bureaucrat essentially at this point who has infiltrated our federal systems, is stealing our data, shutting down federal agencies, and isn't even from the United States and he's standing behind the president who he bought and sold in this election and is telling the American people to trust him that everything's okay even though we know that he's breaking the law daily with these actions that he is taking.

So, do I have any confidence that there's going to be transparency? Absolutely not. And in fact, last week in the House Oversight Committee, we tried to bring Elon Musk in front of the committee.

[23:14:58]

And not only did the Republicans refuse, they scrambled to shut down a subpoena to bring Elon Musk in to answer questions. So the Republicans are actively shielding him. And I can just say I am not impressed by this press conference that they held this afternoon. And in fact, it's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.

COATES: You know, Trump seems to want it conveyed that he's the one running the show. If he's the lightning, Musk might be a kind of lightning rod for him, but he is the one giving the orders and delegating some responsibility. I know you don't buy that, but I do wonder, short of that subpoena and having that congressional conversation with Musk, has there been any communication with your committee and Elon Musk or any member of the staff that is working with him?

STANSBURY: As far as the Democratic side of the committee, absolutely not. But I did see on --

COATES: Have you heard of Republicans, having it?

STANSBURY: Well, I was gonna say I saw on Punchbowl that they were reporting that Marjorie Taylor Green went and met with Elon Musk in the White House yesterday, but there's been no report out. So maybe we'll find out in tomorrow's hearing what they talked about. Even that would be insight into what's going on.

And I find it very rich and ironic that this guy who's hacking our systems and infiltrating our federal agencies and shutting them down and breaking the law is talking about saving democracy and making sure that our federal government is responsive to elected officials, while they are actually stonewalling the elected officials who are elected by the American people in Congress.

So all of this is such a bizarre 1984, like we're going to tell you this while we're doing that sleight of hand, that I think we are getting increasingly alarmed. And you know, Democrats, we are very clear on where we stand. We are here for the fight to clean up our government, to make sure that we're addressing waste, fraud and abuse, making sure it works for the American people, but we are not going to be silent while they dismantle the federal government, while they fire federal employees, while they break the law, while they shut down funding for homeless shelters and raid Medicaid and Medicare to pay for tax breaks for the rich.

We are the resistance and I think you'll see in tomorrow's hearing that we're going to make clear that we're not going to take this sitting down, we're going to fight them.

COATES: I do wonder, given that you're in the minority and given what seems to be this carte blanche that has been conveyed or given to Elon Musk so far, do you have the impression that the American people view you as shouting in the wind, not being silent, saying that you're resistance, but what can you do concretely to actually stop it?

STANSBURY: Yeah, I mean, our strategy is fight them in the courts, fight them in Congress and fight them in the streets. In the courts right now, there are actively at least 55 active federal court cases to shut down the illegal activity. And we're winning in the courts. In fact, we've had numerous cases that have either been temporarily or more permanently decided that have shut down the funding freezes, the hiring, you know, deal that they offered, and also barred his Silicon Valley buddies from accessing our private data. So the courts are doing their job.

In Congress, because we are in the minority, we don't control the system. However, we remain in an oversight role and for the Democratic side of this subcommittee, we are doing our oversight. I have spent the last several weeks interviewing individuals at OMB, at the Treasury Department. I even dropped by OPM the other day and we've been out there in the streets, also organizing the public.

And I think one of the things that's really important is that the public holds the keys here and holding Republicans accountable. They only have a three seat majority in the House. All we need is a few good Republicans with a backbone and a conscience who follow the Constitution to stand up and say, I'm not going to allow this to happen anymore. And so we need the American people to use the power of democracy and their voices to continue to let the Republicans know who represent them, that they did not vote for this, because we are confident the American people did not vote for this.

And if you look at the polling, Elon Trump's polling numbers are in the absolute dumps right now, and people are highly alarmed and terrified by what he's doing.

COATES: I don't know if you meant to call him Elon Trump, but it seemed to be apropos given your comments just now, Congresswoman. Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, thank you so much.

STANSBURY: Thanks.

COATES: Well, Elon Musk says the bureaucracy is subverting the will of the people because it's not elected. But of course, Musk himself is not elected either, right?

[23:20:01] So what's with the double standard? My panel is here to weigh in, next.

Plus, Trump's pick for the FBI director is accused of leading the agency's purge before he's even confirmed. What does it mean for Kash Patel's confirmation chances, if that's true?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Well, the richest man in the world embracing the pinnacle of power. And in an extraordinary scene, Elon Musk alongside President Trump, defending the work of DOGE right inside the Oval Office. Let's talk about that with Republican strategist, Lance Trover, and CNN political commentator, Ashley Allison. Glad to have both of you here.

[23:24:59]

I mean, first of all, what a scene inside the Oval Office. I'm all for bring your kid to work day. I do it myself all the time, but it was it was a scene to behold, I have to say. More power to him, I guess. But Lance, Musk is not an elected official. Having him in the Oval Office describe the way he did in this press conference was pretty interesting given that he described the unelected government bureaucracy as subverting the will of the people. Not self-aware?

LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: This is nothing new. Throughout history, we have had outside people come in and help our government. I don't know what the Democrats fear. I know what the bureaucracy fears. That I know. I don't know what the Democrats fear about this. This is a guy, yes, he's the richest man in the world. He's one of the most successful businessmen in this world. He is a tech titan who wants to come in and help our country.

But then I think about it and oh yes, it's Donald Trump, and Donald Trump chose him and put him in charge. And all the Democrats have TDS, and so we can't possibly have somebody that Donald Trump likes in this office. And I was listening to the congresswoman before, and I was just mind blown listening to her talk about just maintaining the status quo. Everything I heard from her was maintaining the status quo.

And I don't know what polling she's talking about, but the polling I saw over the weekend was a 53 percent approval rating for Donald Trump and 70 percent of this country saying, yeah, he's doing exactly what we sent him to the office.

COATES: Well, actually, I also heard the congressman, though, talk about wanting to know what was happening. It was a quest for transparency, and it seemed as though that's what's lacking from Musk.

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I don't mind that Elon is not elected because we do. I mean, I wasn't elected and I worked at the White House. That's how our government functions. I think it is the lack of understanding how our government functions that I take issue with. So yeah, go in, check the programs. We want to make sure our government is running efficiently, but do it with some level of responsibility.

Just don't carte blanche fire a bunch of folks when you don't actually know what they're doing because it has real life consequences, or think that you have the power of the purse strings, which that's not what power government functions. And so the issue with Elon is that there is no transparency. He said a lot of things today, but I don't know any if any of it is true or not. He just says -- and then he's -- in the same breath he says, and some things I say will be wrong. Well then why do I need to believe what you're saying to me sitting in the Oval Office?

If you want to do this job, if you want to be the tech titan that you said, even though when he bought Twitter its value went down drastically, so like he is the richest man in the world, but he has some flaw, then tell me what you're doing. Be transparent. File your disclosure. Like, he is self-governing himself with your social security number, my social security number, your social security number, and I need some transparency with that.

TROVER: Well, hold on. He stood and took questions from reporters. Normally for reporters taking questions, that's the key thing. He stood and took questions for 20 minutes. Donald Trump takes questions a billion times a day, he's the most transparent president, I think. He's certainly way more transparent than Joe Biden was. And for Democrats to even argue about transparency, we had four years of that we just dealt with. I mean, I just -- I mean, I don't get what you're talking about. The guy stood in the oval and took questions for 20 minutes today.

ALLISON: But just because you take questions doesn't mean what you say is right or that is accurate or that it's true. So the transparency is if you say X amount of million dollars is going to this program, Show me the program, show me the budget line, show me where the waste and fraud is, because then you can't go back in five days and say, yeah, I said that wrong. I said that wrong.

TROVER: Well, he acknowledge that he made -- they make mistakes. I mean, don't we want human beings to like -- that acknowledge their mistakes? And that's what he said, right?

COATES: Well, hey, to err is human. I'm with you on that.

TROVER: Yeah.

COATES: However, he did say that if there is a mistake or a conflict of interest that the press would simply catch it. I'm paraphrasing him. He's calling it a confidential financial disclosure report though. So the idea of just being able to catch it, it almost seems as easy as trying to prove a negative to suggest, well you haven't found anything because I haven't shown you anything, so why haven't you found anything? I must not have anything to show you.

TROVER: Yeah, I would defer to the president who also spoke up today and said, look, if there are issues with you know, conflicts of interest or any of that stuff, then we will deal with it and he won't be a part of it. He made that very clear today in the Oval Office. ALLISON: But we don't even honestly know what Donald Trump's conflict

of interest is because we still haven't seen his tax filing, so.

COATES: You describe a lack of trust, and that's part of the issue, I think, for a lot of people. The idea, and frankly, it's the criticism that's leveled against the bureaucracy more broadly about a lack of trust, transparency in audits and beyond, but the idea of Musk also not revealing information. Maybe it's a later date he intends to do so or otherwise, but do you take issue if you're a member of Congress that you don't have access to the information?

I understand maybe you don't want to tell one of us. But Congress is being shut out as well. Isn't that a problem if you are a congressperson saying, I'm still necessary in this government?

TROVER: Well, I leave that up to Congress to decide. I mean, they're going to make these decisions and move forward. I don't think it's any big deal right now to them. Look, Donald Trump is clearly in charge of the executive. Every member of Congress knows what he was sent there to do by the voters. I think they're going to give him a little bit of leeway.

[23:29:59]

And again, I go back to you. Look at the polling from over the weekend. Clearly the country's giving him some leeway as well.

ALLISON: I don't -- it's been 23 days. And things that we do know, it's wild. I know it feels like 23 years, but it's only been 23 days. And --

COATES: Don't age me.

ALLISON: I know.

COATES: Excuse me.

ALLISON: But I think, check back in 23 weeks when some of this reckless behavior has actually hit the American people and let's see where Donald Trump's poll numbers are.

COATES: We will see. It's a date. Thank you all. Lance Trover, Ashley Allison. Up next, a senator's bombshell claimed that Kash Patel may have been helping to direct that purge we've all been reporting about at the FBI. Well tonight, the new demand for answers and what it might mean for his confirmation chances.

And later we'll take you inside Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's war on DEI and the major change to recruitment that has one active duty general calling it effing racist.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

COATES: Well, Trump's pick for FBI Director, Kash Patel, facing allegations of wrongdoing before he's even confirmed. Senator Dick Durbin claiming sources told him that Patel directed the purge at the FBI when eight senior FBI leaders were fired. Senator telling the Bureau's Inspector General, contemporaneous notes were taken from a meeting that stated, quote, KP, being Kash Patel, quote, "wants movement at the FBI, reciprocal actions for DOJ."

Durbin adds Patel is obtaining information from within the bureau and then passing it along to top Trump officials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Follow the dots. It goes from the White House with Stephen Miller, the deputy to the president, to the acting Attorney General, Bove.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, that meeting allegedly happened one day before Patel said this at his confirmation hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR NOMINEE: I don't know what's going on right now over there, but I'm committed to you, Senator, and your colleagues that I will honor the internal review process of the FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: A spokesperson for Patel told CNN, Durbin's letter was relying on quote, "anonymous sources and secondhand gossip to push a false narrative," unquote. Now all this is happening before a vote on Thursday to advance Patel's nomination.

With me now, National Security Attorney Mark Zaid, representing FBI employees involved in litigation over the efforts to punish bureau employees. He's also the co-founder of Whistleblower Aid. Mark, good to see you again, my friend. I mean, Senator Durbin's claims that Patel was involved with the purge, Patel denies that. That's a very serious accusation, though.

MARK ZAID, NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY: It is, and thanks as always to having me on. Look, we have been focusing on this ourselves. I have been asking sources inside the FBI to see if we could confirm this. I had received the same information about Stephen Miller being involved with the acting deputy attorney general who has been openly directing what's going on.

I will say I have not verified that it was Kash Patel behind the scenes, but I might be talking to different people than who is talking to the senator, and hopefully we'll get some more whistleblowers who come forward. In fact, I'll say in written responses, Kash Patel said to the committee that he values whistleblowers. He believes that whistleblowers should be protected. So I encourage whistleblowers to come to Whistleblower Aid and we will protect you to see if we could verify that this is in fact true because it is incredibly troubling if true. COATES: Well, Mark, explain to the audience why this would be

troubling. Obviously, FBI records are supposed to be independent. They're supposed to be able to serve, you know, over the course of not just one, but more than 10-year terms into a second presidential term for somebody else as well. We've seen in recent times it's not always the case. So why is it so troubling if this is true?

ZAID: Well, we go back to what is the difference in every other administration, at least within our lifetimes and the Trump administrations. It is the practice and following of norms. The norm is until you're confirmed, you don't have anything to do with the agency involved because you're not yet there in power. In the Trump administration, first and second, you know, look, norms don't exist. They do what they want. We see that time and time again.

So do I believe this could be true? Sure, it could be true. I don't know if it is, but it is troubling, especially in light of, as you played the clip, Kash Patel's testimony under oath that he has no idea, no knowledge of what is going on at the FBI while he has not yet been confirmed.

COATES: I'm increasingly curious as to how the average American views confirmation hearings more broadly if it's something that people will say what they need to say to get the title or they believe the words that are coming out of their mouths. It's food for thought for many people. But meanwhile, Trump's former personal attorney Mark, Emile Bove, is leading the DOJ's weaponization review. And Bove himself worked on January 6 cases at the SDNY.

Of course, he was a part of the New York case as well. so-called hush money trial as a defense attorney. Are you concerned about a conflict of interest here?

[23:40:00]

ZAID: Well, let's make this one really clear. He represented January 6th defendants. He didn't withdraw as defense counsel in at least one, maybe more cases. He takes on the position as the acting U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, and he dismisses his own case before he had left it. So, that's a pretty clear conflict of interest. And in fact, there's already been pushback on that. I think at least one federal judge, if I am remembering correctly, or at least an oversight authority, has already pushed back on him saying, look, clearly that is inappropriate to do. I mean, that just seems like law school ethics 101.

COATES: It's like a first week of classes in law school, by the way, on that notion. But then the big question for Americans is, is what are we going to do about it?

ZAID: Haha. Well, that's another question, right? That's a $64 million question for those who remember the old TY show. I guess it's $6.4 million dollar question nowadays. What is going to be done? I'm confident if it hasn't happened already, Bove will face some ethical complaints to his licensing authority which is likely D.C. and I guess New York. And we'll see what happens. Look, that was a good weapon against a weapon -- I'm going to rephrase it. That was a good tool against lawyers who exceeded their authority and crossed ethical lines out of the first Trump administration. And quite a number of them have either been disciplined by their bar license and authorities or have been even disbarred or at least gave up their license. I frankly expect to see a lot of that coming out of the second Trump administration as well.

COATES: We'll see. Mark Zaid, thank you so much.

ZAID: Thank you.

COATES: Still ahead tonight, it's an event where the military used to go to recruit top engineering talent. But not this year. And it has everything to do with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's war on DEI. A retired Army Major General standing by to react to that and more, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

COATES: I'm about to read for you what an active duty army general told military.com about the decision to suddenly stop recruiting at a prominent black engineering event. He said, quote, "For the Army now, it's blacks need not apply. And it breaks my heart." The recruitment is ending because of President Trump and Pete Hegseth's orders to end diversity initiatives in the military. The Army's official statement reads, "In compliance with Department of Defense and Headquarters Department of the Army guidance, we will not participate in the upcoming BEYA event."

And they're referring to the Becoming Everything You Are Conference, where in just a few days, 14,000 of the smartest engineers in the country will arrive in Baltimore for the event. Now last year, the Defense Department recruited close to 800 people there, and get this. This year, the government spent more than a million dollars in sponsorships for the event. Defense contractors including SpaceX and Booz Allen Hamilton, they're also pulling out. Same with the CIA, NSA, NASA, and the Department of Energy.

I want to get right to retired Army Major General Dana Pittard. Thank you so much for joining us, General Pittard. I am curious about your reaction to this news and what your view is in terms of how has the military made any stronger by the U.S. not recruiting at an event like this?

DANA PITTARD, RETIRED MAJOR GENERAL, U.S. ARMY: Good evening, Laura. I'm obviously very sad because some of our best and brightest as far as engineers and the support for STEM over the years, science, technology, engineering and math, have resulted in this kind of a conference where you recruit the best and brightest that happen to be also people of color. So what these conferences have done in the past is helped military readiness by being able to recruit the best and brightest. That supports readiness. So it's sad that it's being interpreted differently. COATES: So just to clarify and make this point underscored, they're

not recruiting to try to take less than. They're recruiting because they're going to areas where they have the best candidates available in one concentrated area as well. But then you hear Pete Hegseth, the new Secretary of Defense, he had this to say about why he feels that DEI initiatives make the country less safe, General. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The dumbest phrase on planet Earth in the military is our diversity is our strength.

It's one thing to have DEI inside your corporation or inside your university. It's a whole another thing to have it inside the 101st Airborne. We only have one military. And if the military goes woke, then it is less equipped to fight the wars that it needs to fight.

I'm straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn't made us more effective, hasn't made us more lethal, has made fighting more complicated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: What's your response?

PITTARD: Our response is, you stand where you sit. He now sits as Secretary of Defense. All those views were prior to you becoming the secretary of defense as far as I know.

[23:50:00]

He is now strategical leader. He is now in charge of the world's greatest military. He needs to really think about that. Diversity is a straight (ph), not just for our military, but it's for our country. I've been to over 90 countries around the world. Part of what makes America America is we are a melting pot of different ethnicities, races, whatever, but we're all Americans. So recruiting and being a part of the diverse force is the strength, and he needs to understand that, but he's got his views.

COATES: Let me ask you on this point. Some have the perception that in order to be a strong military, there has to be absolute uniformity and conformity of thought and personnel. That is not the case to be a strong military. Am I right?

PITTARD: Well, I hope it's not, and that group thinking will lead to disasters. You want different views, whether it's age-related different views, gender-related different views, ethnic -- just background different views. You want different views. The modern military isn't like what people think it is, like some kind of parade military.

It's a military that's fought in tough places, fought under circumstances that take thinking on your feet and not group thought. It takes people saying, hey, we got to do this, I'll do that, and you take it all in, and then you take the best course of action you execute. But that comes from diversity, and that's a strength.

COATES: But one would hope that you could on the one hand still be an individual and also understand a hierarchy of authority when it comes time for national security. That would be my assumption for the best among us in our country, of course, as you have been one of them, General. West Point is also shutting down affinity clubs for minorities, also women. You're an alum. What impact is this move going to have on the cadets who are there?

PITTARD: Oh, I feel bad for the cadets. But let's kind of talk about that. Several thoughts and that West Point in the past has had a history of racial issues in its past. It's done a good job of changing that over time. But my problem isn't the Secretary of Defense on this one. It's the reaction of the leaders at West Point. They know better. West Point had a history of having issues, and over time West Point understood that minority cadets needed support.

And so these affinity groups started popping up, occurring. The Contemporary Cultural Affairs Seminar is over 50 years old, and that has helped so many cadets. I'm one of them. And so they've evolved now in relation to social groups in many ways, but they're also professional development and they help -- you know, the cadets getting in there are quality. Now you want to retain that quality. And that's where these groups help.

COATES: Everyone ought to know, those without support flail. That's the last thing you want if you want a strong military. Retired Army Major General Dana Pittard, thank you so much for joining us.

PITTARD: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: You know, some may have forgotten her name or her story, but I certainly have not. We'll share a major update in the case of Sonya Massey next.

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[23:55:00]

COATES: Now before we go tonight, a step towards justice for the family of Sonya Massey. She was shot and killed by a police officer in her Illinois home last year. This after two deputies responded to her 911 call about a possible intruder. Officials in Sangamon County have now agreed to a $10 million settlement with her family. You remember body cam footage showed Massey in her kitchen holding a pot of boiling water when a deputy told her to step back. He then shot her, alleging he feared for his life during the encounter. He pleaded not guilty to first degree murder and remains in jail awaiting trial.

I spoke with Sonya's father shortly after she was killed and I asked him to share more about the kind of person his daughter was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES WILBURN, FATHER OF SONYA MASSEY: Sonya was a daddy's girl. We never ended a conversation, whether by text or telephone or in person, without saying, Daddy, I love you. And that's the last message I have from my daughter that's saved on my voicemail was, Daddy, I love you. But now I know I won't see her again in this world. But there's another world that I will see her in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Sonya Massey was only 36 years old and a mother of two. The outrage after her death sparked protests for police reform, including renewed calls to pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. Our heart goes out to her and her family and hope that today's news brings them comfort as they continue to live with this tragedy. Thank you all for watching. Anderson Cooper 360 is next.

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