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Laura Coates Live

Delta Plane Crashes And Flips Upside Down At Toronto Airport; New York Governor Hochul Calls Meeting To Discuss Mayor Adams's Fate; U.S. And Russia To Talk Ukraine Without Ukraine; Social Security Administration Clashes With DOGE. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 17, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: Good evening. I'm Sara Sidner, in for Laura Coates tonight. Eighty people on board a Delta flight managed to survive a nightmare scenario that we're looking at right now. A jet upside down on the runway after crash landing at Toronto's main airport. Smoke plumes billowing from the plane's underbelly. At least one wing ripped off. But, miraculously, everyone on that plane is alive tonight. Passengers who walked away from it captured their shock and their relief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: -- everything. Drop it. Come on. (INAUDIBLE).

UNKNOWN: Holy (bleep). Holy (bleep). Holy (bleep). Oh, my (bleep).

UNKNOWN: Yoh, I was just on (bleep) this plane.

SIDNER (voice-over): If there's any time worth cussing, it was then. The airport's fire chief says 18 people were hurt, but there were no life-threatening injuries. It is incredible, especially when you hear just how frightening the landing actually was.

JOHN NELSON, SURVIVED DELTA PLANE CRASH IN TORONTO: When we hit, it was just super hard, like, hit the ground and the plane went sideways. And I believe we skidded, like, on our side and then flipped over on our back. Where we ended up, there was, like, a big fireball on the left side of the plane. And when we got finished, it was -- I was upside down.

SIDNER (voice-over): Everyone is being praised for how quickly they responded from the flight attendants to the firefighters. But now, the question remains, how did this happen? Strong winds were reported at the airport all day with gusts up to 40 miles per hour. Major snowstorms had hit Toronto recently. You can see the result there. The plane was flipped over on a snow-covered tarmac. And you heard that passenger described how hard the landing was. Investigators will now try to figure out exactly how this happened. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Let's go to CNN's Tom Foreman, who is at the magic wall for us. Tom, the fire chief says it's early, of course, yet but that he believes the tarmac was dry and that there were no major crosswinds at the time of the crash. Passengers, though, have suggested otherwise. What can you tell us about the conditions?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, Sara, and I think the video suggests otherwise. We know that there were winds near with gusts up to 40 miles an hour. We know how cold it was. We know there had been some snow. We know -- when we watched that video, you can see the wind rippling people's clothing. You can see it blowing snow across this ground right over there. So, clearly, there is a lot going on in the area.

But that still leaves open the question, exactly, how did a plane like this get from this shape to that shape? The question is, if the crosswinds were enough to make it touch a wingtip, aviation experts say that could have produced what that witness described, a collapse to one side, a rolling over.

If some landing gear had collapsed upon impact, maybe because there was a problem with it, maybe because it wasn't deployed, maybe because there was a hard, unexpected gust at that moment, that also could have caused that problem, or maybe the whole thing somehow went off the edge of the hard pan at some point and that contributed to this, or maybe a factor of all of those together.

That's what investigators have to look at, all of those possibilities. And yeah, no matter what somebody might say, they're going to be looking at the weather, the snow, the ice and the wind. Sara?

SIDNER: Yeah. And the video of the billowing black smoke as the plane crashed, we also heard from one of the passengers saying that there was some sort of fireball. What kind of questions does that raise?

FOREMAN: This raises a big question. Some of our airline experts have spoken earlier today. This raises another question of, was there a, you know, some sort of catastrophic failure the moment they showed up? This could be the jet fuel burning off. And because it's not burning at its optimum level, there's a lot of carbon in it, that makes a big black cloud like this, or maybe it's something else related to the landing gear.

That's one of the reasons they have to look at it. All of these are little bits of evidence that they have to put together here. The one thing that they really have, which you don't always have in plane crashes, is a lot of witnesses.

[23:05:01]

With everyone surviving --

SIDNER: Yeah. FOREMAN: -- everybody has a tale to tell, and somebody may have seen a little something or witnessed a little something that will help them put together exactly how this came together, or if it was just a terrible combination of events coming together in a certain bad way that made this happen.

SIDNER: Terrifying to look at, but amazing --

FOREMAN: It is.

SIDNER: -- that everyone survived. Tom Foreman --

FOREMAN: Yeah.

SIDNER: -- always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

FOREMAN: Good to see you, Sara.

SIDNER: All right. Let me bring in now CNN analyst Peter Goetz, former NTSB managing director, and Mary Schiavo, former Department of Transportation inspector general.

Mary, I'm going to talk to you first. You heard the survivor of the crash say the plane hit very hard as it landed. It skidded on its side then flipped over. What kind of clues does that give you as to the potential, and I know we are a long way off from getting a preliminary cause, but a potential cause of this accident?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL OF U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: Well -- and there are lots of clues already. I mean, starting with the air traffic control, the air traffic control gave the weather. There was also weather and winds given before. And they did give some warnings of the strength of the winds.

Then the air traffic control said something that seems somewhat odd to me. It says, you know, beware of a bump prior flight. Did that mean the prior flight reported that it was very bumpy or were they concerned about any kind of wake turbulence?

And then when they hit on the end of the runway, I mean, they were right at the end of the runway, not a way down. That suggests that they had, you know, tremendous downward force. They really came down very hard.

SIDNER: Uh-hmm.

SCHIAVO: And they will be able to look at the vertical speed, the ground speed, the sync rate, meaning how fast the plane was going relative to the ground. Was it sinking? Was it bouncing? Was it rolling? That's all going to be recorded.

And so, what it suggests to me is, you know, sadly, winds in a very precipitous landing. Probably, it would be considered not a stabilized landing to land that hard and fast. And I think, inevitably, the winds and the weather are going to play. And they're going to look exactly what that air traffic controller meant when they said, you know, be careful, bump from the previous flight. Did they report that it was bumpy?

SIDNER: Yeah.

SCHIAVO: Or are they concerned to some sort of wake turbulence?

SIDNER: Peter, there -- there is some discrepancy over the role that crosswinds may have played. Passengers describing a very windy ride. And you sort of heard, though, from the fire chief that he didn't believe crosswinds were -- were coming at this at this plane as it was landing. How do you determine all of that, whether or not the gusts of wind may have been a major factor?

PETER GOETZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST, FORMER MANAGING DIRECTOR AT NTSB: Well, it's a little inappropriate for the fire chief to be speculating about weather, particularly given the information that Mary has referenced, that the flight controllers gave out to the pilots and the weather that was identified by Tom at the board. I mean, there was clearly crosswinds.

The question is, was there a big gust that took this plane right as it was starting to land? Mary pointed out it landed right at the end of the runway when it might ordinarily have been down another -- excuse me -- couple of hundred yards.

And, you know, I think the information is in the data recorder, it's in the voice recorder, and it's going to be in the witness marks that you'll see. You know, we'll know where the plane put down. If the wing did catch the ground, we'll see it. There will be a witness mark.

This is not going to be an investigation that's going to be puzzling for, you know, years to come. We'll know what happened, and we'll know how to prevent it from happening again.

SIDNER: Yeah. The plane almost wholly intact except for the wing broke off, as I learned, it is supposed to do, and so you're -- you have the black boxes as well easily accessible.

Mary, when you -- when you hear about this and see the black smoke but also hear that there was a fireball, and that the plane flipped immediately, according to a survivor who CNN spoke to, what does that say to you?

SCHIAVO: Well, I think that fireball that was reported in that black smoke, I do think that's from when the wings came off and the fuel burning. That's not a hydraulic leak. I mean, lots of times, when you have a collapsed landing gear, you have this hydraulic spray. That's not that. That is -- there's a -- there's a video floating around on the internet that shows quite a fireball. Who knows if it's accurate, you know, truly of this accident? But I think that is fuel, and that's from when the wing came off.

[23:09:57]

And, again, just remarkable how fortunate it was that the wings came off and the fuselage kept going with the passengers saving their lives, getting them out of the fireball. I mean, it's just remarkable.

SIDNER: Yeah. Watching people stand there and help passengers get out, smiles on their faces, just trying to make sure everyone is calm, and the way in which this all happened is truly remarkable and a testament to the first responders there.

Peter, I am curious about just how quickly they showed up. You see a Medevac helicopter was in the area at the time. And it was minutes, seconds even, as you saw people respond immediately to this. What did you make of the response to this crash?

GOETZ: Well, I think -- I think there are two things. One is, you know, the first responders at airports drill constantly for this kind of event. That they were there within minutes is exactly what they drill for. It's exactly what we, as taxpayers, pay them to do. We want them there in the first few minutes.

And the flight attendants really ought to be praised as well in what could be a, you know, a terribly confusing situation. They appear to have performed really above and beyond the call. And, you know, one -- one of the things that that you saw was the flight attendant calling for a passenger to drop a piece of luggage. At this point, you've got to give up the luggage, folks, and you want to get off the plane as quickly as possible.

SIDNER: Yeah.

GOETZ: The luggage will be there when you get back or maybe it won't, but you'll be okay.

SIDNER: Your life first. Your luggage, second. Third, whatever. Everyone needs to get off of the plane, especially because it was billowing with smoke. Look, 18 passengers, though, were injured, but there were no fatalities. What about this crash? I mean, what saved people? What were some of the things -- perhaps the seats on the plane, the way that the wing came off. What were some of the safety measures that you think may have saved lives here?

GOETZ: Well --

SCHIAVO: Well, I think --

GOETZ: -- I think --

SIDNER: Sorry. That was to Mary. Sorry, Peter.

GOETZ: Yeah. Go ahead.

SCHIAVO: Well, so many things. The construction of the aircraft has improved dramatically over the last several decades. The survivability of the interiors. Peter is a big champion and helped play a role in the 16G seats, which means the seats stay intact, they stay affixed, they don't collapse one upon the other. What used to happen is the backs of the seats would collapse over on top of people.

SIDNER: Hmm. SCHIAVO: The interiors of aircraft are less flammable. They're more flame resistant. They don't catch fire as easily as they used to. And, of course, the exit rule. You got to be able to get the plane empty and 90 seconds are left. That -- that's the rig.

SIDNER: And it seems they managed that. Peter, thank you for making planes safer, when you consider what happened here. You know, the crew is upside down, the passengers are upside down, but the seats did stay intact, people were able to get off that plane, and they are all going to survive this. It is a remarkable moment even though terrifying to watch and experience.

Peter Goetz, Mary Schiavo, thank you both so much. Really appreciate it.

GOETZ: Good night.

SIDNER: All right, ahead, passengers describe the horror of the plane flipping over --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

-- and then the scramble to get out alive.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): We hit the ground. And we were sideways. And then we were upside down, hanging like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:15:00]

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SIDNER: All right, we continue to follow the breaking news out of Toronto where a Delta Airlines flight with 80 people on board crashed and flipped upside down on a snow-covered runway. At least 18 passengers were taken to local hospitals, but every single person is expected to survive.

CNN's Paula Newton is joining me now. Paula, I know that you were at the airport the same day, just, you know, a bit before this all happened. What are you learning about the people on board and some of the injuries that they have sustained?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, we just have some new information in from Delta. They, in fact, say that they have deployed their incident response team. But, as well, they say that some of the passengers, some of those 18, Sara, that initially were sent to hospital have now been released. And, of course, that is good news.

As you point out, these are non-life-threatening injuries for all 18. We had heard earlier that three possibly were critically injured, including one child, and we continue to look for updates on the condition of those passengers. But, you know, Sara, you and I, anyone looking at this video, you can only say miraculous when you look that it has flipped upside down and that the kind of injuries that we're looking at here in the main were fairly minor. People being released from hospital, and even those injuries that were more critical, they're non-life-threatening.

And then look at that airplane. I want you to listen now, though, to the survivors describe what happened in their own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: It was mass chaos. I was upside down. A lady next to me was upside down. We kind of let ourselves go and fell to hit the ceiling, which is surreal feeling. And then everybody was just, like, get out, get out, get out. We could smell, like, jet fuel. Even now, I smell like jet fuel.

[23:20:00]

A lot of stress. It's amazing that we're still here.

PETE KOUKOV, SURVIVED DELTA PLANE CRASH IN TORONTO (voice-over): Just feeling lucky and happy. I got to give the person I didn't know sitting next to me a big hug, that we were okay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: Yeah, quite a bonding moment, I'm sure. But can you imagine, we let ourselves fall? You literally have to unfasten your seat belt and fall, and then likely crawl to the emergency exit that -- you know, the flight attendants there just doing incredible work to really ensure the safety of their passengers.

Now, look, when we talk about the investigation, Canada's Transportation Safety Board will be taking the lead. Of course, the NTSB will be assisting. But usually, and as we've had analysts and some of your guests on earlier, Sara, say, sometimes, it's not just one thing.

You know, you commented that I was at the airport. The winds were strong. The snow was blowing. Perhaps that didn't have anything to do with the incident though itself. What is crucial here though is the communication though with the tower. I have been behind the scenes at that Toronto tower. Everyone just so diligent and competent, and it'll be interesting just to see what they were seeing on those flights that were approaching that very same runway just minutes before.

SIDNER: Yeah. And it's interesting to hear the air traffic control and the flight that didn't seem to be any major concern, although they said that there was going to be a bump. We will wait and see. I know the investigation takes about a month to get some sort of preliminary look at what happened there.

Paula Newton, thank you so much for staying up late with us. Appreciate you. All right, I want to bring in former acting FAA administrator, Billy Nolen. He was also a former pilot for American Airlines. First, your reaction to the fact that we're now seeing another crash. This time, 80 people up-side down, as they describe it, like bats on that runway in Toronto, but no fatalities. What do you make of that?

BILLY NOLEN, FORMER ADMINISTRATOR, FAA: Well, you know, as most of your other guests have said, Sara, this is -- you know, strike it up as a miraculous recovery, if you will. First of all, I just, you know, tip my hat to, again, to this amazing crews to the flight, the ability to quickly get all of the passengers off the airplane safety.

As you've already noted, a few -- some minor injuries there but, overall, what we would call a good outcome based on everything that we're looking at here.

And now, the critical work, you know, begins with the investigation with the Transportation Safety Board in the lead, as noted, to say, you know, what happened, why did it happen, and certainly, we always think about what are the things that we can do to prevent it from happening in the future.

So -- but -- but the good point here is that the fuselage, the body of the aircraft is intact. They'll be able to quickly retrieve, you know, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder. All that will be critical in just understanding those final moments of the flight just prior to touchdown.

SIDNER: Can -- can you give me some sense, being that -- that you're a pilot, what it's like to be in the cockpit when something like this goes wrong? Now, obviously, we haven't seen very many scenarios where a plane is actually flipped upside down. But when you have what is called a hard landing, as you well know, you know, how do you handle that?

NOLEN: Well, yes, we train. And, you know, as a crew, as a pilot, I -- in a past life, I spent a part of my time as a training captain where I train all the crews. So, you go through many of these scenarios about recovering from a hard landing, recovering from what we call a bounce landing. Right?

You know, some of these things, you bet, you hope that you will never see over the course of your career. And certainly, over the course of my 26 and a half years of flying as an airline pilot and captain, I never encountered something of this magnitude.

But it's something that you think about and then you're -- you know, that training really does kick in, as we see with the flight attendants, of getting all of these -- all of the passengers safely off the aircraft. And the pilots.

So, the rest will just have to wait for this investigation which, you know, has been stated, won't take that long for us to have a pretty definitive answer as what happened in the last few seconds.

SIDNER: Yeah. There are so many questions. The landing gear, if there was an issue there, if it was slippery, if there were tons of wind that impacted this plane, if, for example, the plane's wing actually hit, causing it to flip over. There are so many things that the investigators will be looking at.

NOLEN: Yeah.

SIDNER: But while I have you, politics has entered the sphere and it always does. I want to ask you about a separate matter involving the FAA. On Sunday, the Trump administration started firing hundreds of FAA employees. The employees are newer employees that were still under probation, making it easier to let them go.

[23:25:00]

Do you have any concerns about that decision?

NOLEN: You know, the way I see it, having been the acting FAA administrator, having led this organization, 45,000 people, it -- it's all we have to continually improve. But as I think about it, my understanding is that the critical roles, the flight -- air traffic controllers who oversee the flights, the people who maintain the air traffic control equipment, the safety inspectors who oversee the safety of our national airspace system of all the operators within that system, none of those -- those people were impacted.

That being said, right, this is an opportunity for us to continue look for ways to improve, making sure -- yeah, I'm reminded of part of the Hippocratic Oath which is part of what says, do no harm. Right?

SIDNER: Do not harm. Right.

NOLEN: So, we want to make sure that this system, which is quite complex with all of the operators, make sure that we don't wake up and suddenly we've got delays, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

You know, the American public expect to get on an airplane, fly safely to their destination, get off that airplane, and have that all done in an atmosphere of complete safety. I believe that's what the agency delivers day in and day out.

And so, as we seek technological improvements and advancement to keep pace for the next 20 to 50 years, let's make sure we keep the system intact and safe day in and day out.

SIDNER: Billy Nolen, I really appreciate you staying up late and talking us through that. It's really important to have your perspective.

NOLEN: Thank you.

SIDNER: All right, there is more breaking news for us tonight. New York City Mayor Eric Adams remains defiant even as some of his top deputies have resigned. And now, we're getting word tonight that Governor Kathy Hochul is calling a meeting that may decide the mayor's fate. And former New York governor, David Paterson, live with me to react to that and more. Plus, talks between the U.S. and Russia are set to kick off over the war in Ukraine without representatives from Ukraine. We'll discuss ahead.

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[23:30:00]

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SIDNER: Got some breaking news out of New York. Governor Kathy Hochul may be closer to deciding if she'll try to remove New York City Mayor Eric Adams. Hochul says she'll be meeting with key leaders in New York tomorrow to discuss the -- quote -- "path forward."

Adams, so far, has remained defiant, and he even turned some heads earlier today after he said this to reporters while making the case for him to stay in office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS, NEW YORK CITY, NEW YORK: I remember listening to some of Dr. King's teaching, and he talked about the book "Mein Kampf." And he indicated, if you tell a lie long enough, loud enough, people would tend to believe it's true. And that's what you're seeing right now, modern day Mein Kampf.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Um, okay, a book by Adolf Hitler, that was certainly a choice. And Adams said, minutes before, four of his top aides resigned. Three of them saying that the -- quote -- "extraordinary events of the last few weeks led them to their decision to quit."

Those events being the Justice Department's decision to drop bribery charges against Adams. The Justice Department says the charges prevented Adams from doing his job, mainly taking part in Trump's immigration crackdown. The DOJ and Adams say it was not a quid pro quo. But seven prosecutors resigned in protest, refusing to take part in what they claimed was a plan, a bad deal.

Joining me now, former governor of New York, David Paterson. He has been a staunch supporter of Mayor Adams. You said it was outrageous for Adams to resign when he was initially charged. Do you still think it's outrageous for Adams to resign?

DAVID PATERSON, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: What I felt was outrageous, Sara, was peep -- were people telling him that he had to resign when only he knows really what went on. He and whoever he talked to, you know, from the White House. And -- and just this rush to judgment that we have in politics these days, whenever anyone gets in the slightest bit of trouble, there's this stampede to try to get them out of office. I didn't think it was fair to him, and I don't know.

SIDNER: Let me ask you this, because there is this issue between him and Trump's border czar, Tom Homan. And there is a question as to whether a backdoor deal was made and that there was a quid pro quo. Whether it was months ago, he was -- Homan asked to go into Rikers to try and find immigrants who were there undocumented. And the mayor refused. And now, suddenly, he's saying, sure, go ahead in. And then lo and behold, his case gets dropped. Doesn't that look bad?

PATERSON: Well, Mayor Adams and Homan were on another network on Friday, and they asked Homan what happens if Adams doesn't comply. He said something that was really vulgar and I thought unnecessary and something that would leave you to think that there is a quid pro quo because when people talk like that, they must know something that they're not revealing.

SIDNER: All right. Four top aids to Adams resigned. Do you have confidence that Adams can -- can govern under this turmoil? These are just the recent folks who resigned. You had a litany of others who resigned, including the police commissioner and the health commissioner.

[23:35:03]

So, can he go forward and run this city?

PATERSON: Well, the pathway to leading the city is obviously going to be encumbered by the loss of many of these very important people who work for Mayor Adams and very distinguished people who work for Mayor Adams. But if they feel that they can't work in an environment where they're doing their job, I don't know that I blame them for that. But there are too many times when the staff of an elected official, who is in some kind of trouble, sort of embraces the trouble.

And -- in other words, you know, I worked for people who I thought they had no idea what they were doing, and I worked for people who I thought were corrupt. But when I decided to leave, I made it as quiet as possible because you don't want to upstage the person that gave you the opportunity to work there in the first place.

SIDNER: I want to get your -- your sense of what's going to go down here. Governor Hochul says she is going to meet with key leaders tomorrow to discuss a path forward. What would you consider if you were holding this meeting tomorrow and would it in your mind be a mistake for her to say we're removing you?

PATERSON: Well, I think the governor is really on the right track here. If you have a difficult situation such as this, you try to bring other people around you. One person can't solve all the world's problems, but sometimes, 10 people can. So, the fact that Governor Hochul is having a meeting, I think, is most appropriate. They'll listen to the thoughts of the other leaders that they bring in.

And Governor Hochul did point out that governors never really removed a mayor previously. Governor Franklin Roosevelt was going to remove Mayor Jimmy Walker in 1932, but Mayor Walker resigned and moved to a close neighboring village, a place called London, England. And so, you know, that's, I think, real demonstration of leadership by Governor Hochul to actually do that. SIDNER: All right, there are a few people that are running, including Michael Blake, for the New York City mayorship. The former New York governor, Andrew Cuomo, is reportedly considering joining the race. He posted this video on X for Valentine's Day, embracing voters. And a Democratic group has already endorsed Cuomo. Should Cuomo jump in the race considering he resigned over allegations of sexual misconduct?

PATERSON: Well, if here -- again, if governor Cuomo wants to jump into the race and that's what he truly wants to do, you know, I don't see any reason to actually stop him. He has held elected office for 14 and a half years, some of it as attorney general and most of it as governor. He was in office during the pandemic and did a terrific job. I mean, he was must see T.V. every day. I used to say, who needs Dr. Phil if you turn on and listen to Governor Cuomo every day?

But it would be a comeback for him. But he's got a lot of experience and also, you know, I think he has the resources that he could run. And I think he also, you know, may have learned from some of his experiences that didn't go that well.

SIDNER: Okay. And people questioned what happened with nursing homes during his tenure. But they did get used to seeing him every single day on television trying to calm people down as New York went through one of the most horrific times in its health care industry during the COVID-19 outbreak.

Thank you so much for being here with us and walking us through this. This is a political tightrope that the mayor finds himself on.

All right, just ahead, Secretary of State Marco Rubio arrives in Saudi Arabia, ready to talk to Russia about Ukraine's future, except no one from Ukraine is at these talks. My next guest says the Trump administration may be about to cave to Putin.

Plus, Elon Musk's DOGE tries to access Social Security information. And now, the head of the Social Security Administration is taking a bold move in response.

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[23:40:00]

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SIDNER: We're now just a few hours away from a pivotal meeting that could begin to decide the fate of the war in Ukraine. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is leading the talks. He'll be in Saudi Arabia, the capital there in Riyadh, to meet with Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov.

No Ukrainian or European representative will be there. We're told this meeting is to lay the groundwork for future talks, including a potential face-to-face between President Trump and Vladimir Putin.

Now, I want to bring in Bryan Lanza, former senior adviser to Secretary of State Tony Blinken and former spokesperson for the State Department. Thank you so much for being here. Ned, give us some sense of what we should expect from this meeting and if you think anything is going to come of it.

NED PRICE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO SECRETARY OF STATE TONY BLINKEN, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT: Well, Sara, good to be here. I know this is a story that is near and dear to your heart as well. Look, I don't expect much to come of this meeting tomorrow, and I say that as someone who sat in the last time -- in the last meeting a secretary of state held with Sergey Lavrov to discuss Ukraine.

[23:45:01]

This was in January of 2022. It was part of our all-out effort to forestall what was then Russia's imminent invasion of Ukraine. It was ultimately unsuccessful not because we didn't leave anything on the field, but because Russia was determined to go forward with this.

And what was so remarkable about the last time the secretary of state, Secretary Blinken at the time met with Sergey Lavrov, was the fact that this was not the Sergey Lavrov that we had come to know over the course of many years. This was a Russian foreign minister who was uncharacteristically looking at his notes, reading from his notes the whole time, appeared very nervous.

And ultimately, I think we concluded that he either didn't know what was about to happen. He, too, was in the dark, kept in the dark by President Putin, or he was deeply uncomfortable with what was going to happen, and that was really showcased in his body language.

And so, I say that noting that they're going to meet the Russian foreign minister tomorrow. There is one person who started this war. It was President Putin. There is one person who can end this war. It is President Putin. Meeting with other officials may help eventually to get there. It may help to scope out what the Russians are going to demand, where they are. But, ultimately, there aren't going to be concrete results from a meeting with anyone but Vladimir Putin.

SIDNER: All right. So, let's talk about the fact that Ukraine is not at the table for this very beginning of negotiations. And Zelenskyy has told NBC that he wouldn't accept the deal struck by Russia and the U.S. if Ukraine didn't have a seat at the table. Listen to what Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): I think what President Trump is doing here is actually really smart. He's -- he's meeting with Zelenskyy. He's having conversations with them. What that is doing, John, is that's putting both people, getting them in separate rooms, talking about what they will accept, and then finding out a negotiation path forward before you bring them to the table.

A lot of times, if you bring people to the table too fast, John, it'll blow up, they'll walk away, and you'll set back the talks for maybe six months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Is it smart to start with Russia and wait to have the Ukrainians and Europeans in the same room?

PRICE: Well, Sara, I feel that President Trump -- I fear that President Trump is preparing to violate the cardinal rule of diplomacy, and that is a simple proposition that we cannot want an outcome. The United States cannot want an outcome more so than the other side. In this case, we cannot want an end to Russians -- Russia's aggression more so than Russia is ready to stop the fighting.

And I fear that President Trump is ready to -- to violate that cardinal rule, and I say that because President Putin has had -- has had ample opportunity over the course of now three years, in the first instance to really stop what was then the buildup of forces to prevent the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

And he has had ample opportunity over the course of those three years since Russian forces have mounted this full-scale invasion of Ukraine to come to the negotiating table. And yet he has declined to do so.

The fact that he is at least sending a delegation now suggests that he is operating from a position of strength, that when President Trump says that the United States is going to seek a just and durable peace, that that's nothing more than words, because this is -- if this is going to be a just and durable peace, of course, it has to be durable, it has to be lasting, it has to be enduring, but it also importantly has to be just.

And a just peace is a peace that really makes a distinction between aggressor, Russia in this case, and the victim, Ukraine. There's a simple dictum that if Russia were to stop fighting today, the war would end. If Ukraine were to stop fighting today, Ukraine would end. That's really what's at stake here.

I want to take President Trump at his word that the United States is going to seek a just and durable peace, a peace that sets Ukraine up for long term prosperity, for independence, for sovereignty.

I fear that by not including the Ukrainians at the table, by not including the Europeans at the table, President Trump wants to achieve a deal more so than President Putin, and in doing so, he's willing to sell Ukraine down the creek. That's dangerous for Ukraine, of course, but it's also profoundly dangerous for the global international order.

SIDNER: Yep. The president and others are saying they will eventually talk to Ukraine. But at this point, they are starting with Russia that has quite a few folks, especially those in Ukraine. And the president of Ukraine, very concerned.

Ned Price, thank you so much for joining us.

PRICE: Thanks, Sara.

SIDNER: All right, still ahead, first, it was the IRS. Now, it is the Social Security Administration. Elon Musk's DOGE reportedly trying to access data at the agency. What one top official did in protest.

[23:50:02]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SIDNER: All right, we have some breaking news for you. The acting head of the Social Security Administration has resigned. Michelle King's departure comes after she refused to provide DOGE staffers access to sensitive information. Your information. King had been with the department for 30 years. It's the latest act of resistance meant to slow cost cutting moves by President Trump and Elon Musk. DOGE had to go to court to gain access to treasury payment systems, and it is fighting to enter a sensitive database in the IRS.

With me now, Bryan Lanza, former senior adviser to Trump's 2024 campaign, and Joe Crowley, former New York congressman and former chair of the House Democratic Congress -- Caucus. Thank you both so much. Bryan, let let's start here.

[23:54:57]

People at home hear the Social Security Administration, the head of that administration stepping down, and alarm bells do go off. What -- what is the end goal here?

BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR TRUMP-VANCE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: First of all, thank you for having me. Yeah, I think alarm bells do go off, but a lot of it just has to do with more hysteria than anything else. We know for a fact that Donald Trump and his administration are entitled to have access to this. This is why they're winning court decision after court decision after court decision.

What you see is sort of -- I hate using the term -- sort of the deep state fighting, the change that America wanted and asked for. You know, as for the sensitive data, of course, it's sensitive data. Nobody believes that that sensitive data is going to be manipulated or abused. I know that it sorts of likes to be portrayed in this very nefarious way, but this is how you make cuts, this is how you find fraud. You actually see where the payments are, see if there's duplications.

And I think in the end, you know, people are going to be ultimately happy with the cuts that are made. It's not going to be Social Security cuts. It's not going to be Medicare cuts. It's going to be a real waste. It's going to be real fraud. Those are the cuts that are taking place. And what's wrong with outsiders looking in and trying to find it and spot it and root it out?

SIDNER: Let me ask you this. Why not wait until the head of the Social Security Administration that he has nominated now gets into place to try and get a hold of all this and really look at what's going on in the agency before doing these cuts?

LANZA: Because what the president has learned from his first term to his second term is that the best tactic in Washington D.C. is delay. You know, it's let's negotiate in good faith. Let's wait for confirmations. Let's do all these things. But at the end of the day, they're delay tactics.

And the businessman Donald Trump sees that. He knows that the American people want action now, and that legally, he's entitled to do those actions. So, he doesn't feel he needs to wait because that's Washington. Washington D.C.'s game is let's wait, let's delay. Trump is ready to go forward, and he's ready to take it to the courts. And it looks like he's winning in the courts because he knows that the Constitution backs him.

SIDNER: Joe, some might look at this and say, well, I mean, is it a big deal? Is there cause for alarm if DOGE has access to Social Security information?

JOE CROWLEY, FORMER NEW YORK REPRESENTATIVE: Well, it's very sensitive information. It's probably one of the most sensitive piece of information in a person's life. I mean, how often are people told not to give out their Social Security number? So, this is something, I think, every American understands.

What's the end game here, though? Where are they really going here? Why aren't they waiting for an administrator to be appointed? I have, you know, forensic accountants in there. I have accounts and not techies coming in and looking at this information, with folks who can come in and make the audits that are necessary to find if there are any -- any abuses in the system.

I think both Democrats and Republicans agree. If there is something going wrong in terms of checks being sent to unqualified individuals, we want to see that stopped. But having just someone come in who really has no congressional approval, has not been vetted himself, is simply a hire of the White House, and those folks that have that kind of access is unprecedented.

SIDNER: Bryan, I want to talk to you about something that Trump posted on social media, where he wrote, I'm quoting here, "He who saves his country does not violate any law." That is something that is believed to be attributed to Napoleon. What do you make of this? What are we supposed to read into this? Because what it seems to say is he's above the law.

LANZA: No. Listen. I think what he's doing more than anything else, he's trolling the media and he's trolling Democratic Party officials. You know, he --

SIDNER: Why -- why is the president trolling anyone? He is the president of the United States, and people expect him to do the job that they put him in there to do, which is to make things more affordable, deal with immigration. I mean, there are a lot of things that -- that people are hoping that he will do, and I think trolling people is probably not high on that list.

LANZA: No. Listen. I think what we learned from the first term, that it's a strategy and it's an effective strategy, to push back against the media, causing them to hyperventilate over every little thing, which when they hyperventilate over every little thing, they continue to lose more and more credibility. I think the strategy worked, so why would you stop it? And it's for trolling.

You know, that is -- that is who this president is. But you also have to remember to step back. The calm always enhances the message. So, any time you guys, any time the media, the left ones do hysterical or things he's doing, you're actually delivering our message for it because the more controversy, the more it breaks through. And so, I mean, it works. That's why we do it.

SIDNER: Interesting. I'm not hysterical. I don't think anyone else is. Just asking a question. Joe, is Trump, though, doing something different here? Not just to troll people, but is he setting the stage to potentially ignore court rulings, you think?

CROWLEY: Well, I think you asked the right question. Why is any president trolling anyone? That is not the role of the president. It's -- it's beneath the dignity of the office. But, you know, we know that this president has attention deficit disorder. If he's not in the media 24 hours every single day of the year, there's something wrong with the world.

[23:59:59]

And therefore, he has to be right out there sticking it in. I do think, though, it goes back to the decision by the Supreme Court last year that gave him immunity where he believes -- he now believes that he's above any law whatsoever. There's no constraint whatsoever, that the Congress is irrelevant, and that the courts are irrelevant. And that's what he's basically saying. Next thing you know, he'll have his hand in his pocket like Napoleon did.

SIDNER: Joe Crowley, Bryan Lanza, thank you for that spirited conversation. Appreciate it. And thank you so much. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.