Return to Transcripts main page
Laura Coates Live
Elon Musk Touts Government Firings by Wielding Chainsaw; Kash Patel Critics Warn of Purge as He Takes Over FBI; Ex-NFL Punter Arrested After Anti-MAGA Protest; Joe Rogan Dethroned as Fans Sound Off; Musk Eyes Major Change to "X" Platform; U.S.-Canada Tensions Spill Onto the Ice for Final Grudge Match. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired February 20, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
UNKNOWN: -- saying that because he completely disagrees, but it's so obvious it's not even --
UNKNOWN: I'm with the husband.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right --
UNKNOWN: My epic answer, Abby, would be Arnold Schwarzenegger, who I was Lieutenant Governor with, and Hulk Hogan. Just imagine that. Six foot, seven, 300 pound, Arnold Schwarzenegger, 28-inch arms going at it. That would be epic. I'm taking Arnold Schwarzenegger.
PHILLIP: Me, too.
UNKNOWN: Me, too.
PHILLIP: I'm with you, Arnold Schwarzenegger.
UNKNOWN: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: Okay, everybody, thank you very much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, the DOGE chainsaw massacre. Elon Musk reveling in his role even as some Republicans start to close their eyes. Plus, he's the pick the Democrats feared most. Trump loyalist Kash Patel now confirmed. You can call him the FBI director. So, the big question, what will he do now? And the former NFL punter who went viral for a stunning political protest is going to join me tonight right here on "Laura Coates Live."
Well, the (INAUDIBLE) keep coming. The horror story is getting worse for many federal workers. But on the MAGA stage, it's all fun and games, and a meme is made into reality.
(BACKGROUND VOICE)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
ELON MUSK, CEO OF TESLA MOTORS, LEADER OF DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Chainsaw!
COATES: Hmm. Elon Musk fully embracing his role as the DOGE version of, apparently, leather face charged with slashing the federal government. His fans at the conservative conference loved it. But at the agencies he's gutting, it's a very different story. I mean, take the IRS, for example, where the DOGE chainsaw has cut thousands of people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Many are -- quote -- "arguing with management, throwing books, kicking chairs in frustration." They don't have a clue -- a clue where their next paycheck is going to come from. Employees and managers are crying. Now, for the first month of the Trump's second term, his GOP allies have been in lockstep to push to downsize or they might say rightsize. But the cuts, they are getting much deeper. And you know what? Cracks are starting to form.
GOP Senator Bill Cassidy is warning about big firings at the FBI. The agency is certainly on edge with now Kash Patel the new director. Congressman Don Bacon also wants the chainsaw to, well, slow down. You know, look twice before cutting the tree to a stump. He says the administration has already had to backtrack, not once, but multiple times.
You know what? He's right. They're pressing the undo button after firing workers who were fighting the bird flu outbreak, those who are overseeing the nation's nuclear stockpile and handling the crisis hotline at the Veterans Affairs Department. Oops, even some of the Trump faithful at Fox News whistling a different tune.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: He just found out he's probably going to get laid off. He's going to get DOGE'd. And he texted me and he said, Jesse, you know, this isn't good, I'm upset, this is really sad. And this guy is not a DEI consultant. This guy is not a climate consultant. You know, this guy is a veteran. We just need to be a little bit less callous with the way, Harold, we talk about DOGE-ing people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Oh, the chainsaw is not funny? Look, DOGE-ing people isn't the only issue where Republicans are swaying. Trump is openly elevating Vladimir Putin. He's putting Ukrainian President Zelenskyy on the bench. And for Senator Thom Tillis, that is a big no-no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Whoever believes that there is any space for Vladimir Putin in the future of a stable globe, they better go to Ukraine, they better go to Europe, they better invest the time to understand that this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, to be clear, most Republicans, they're still backing Trump. And to be clear, tonight, he's promising them another win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: In presidential races, they say when you win the presidency, usually, the midterms don't go well. I think we're going to do great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Okay. Joining me now, former Republican governor from New Hampshire, Chris Sununu, who joins us now. Governor, thank you for joining. You know, let me go to this moment because even some in your own party are starting to question some of these cuts. The principle of downsizing or rightsizing might be what they applaud, but the devil being in the details.
[23:05:01]
Do you worry at all that some of these cuts are too deep, too reckless, too short-sighted?
CHRIS SUNUNU, FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE GOVERNOR: I think -- I think what some folks are bringing up has validity. I think we all want to see it go quickly. There's no doubt about it. They're going fast and hard for a very specific reason because, frankly, for 25 years, Congress had the ability to find efficiency in fraud and weighs in, and they refused to do anything.
COATES: Is that why you want to go quickly, governor? Is that why you want to go -- I mean, is that the only reason to go quickly or is that something different?
SUNUNU: No. The main reason to go quickly is to send a very clear message that everybody in the federal government is on notice. Nobody is supposedly immune. They're not just picking one agency or one department based on politics. They're really making sure that there's -- and what they're finding, it's not just about efficiency, right? There's so much more waste and fraud and corruption than I think they even expected. So, they're going to go hard.
Now, clearly, they're going very fast on certain agencies and certain employees that should be thought twice of. I think their strategy up until this point has been, look, we're going to go fast and hard and force people to justify why they should remain in existence, force people to justify why their agency has validity, what their value to America is, and what not. They're clearly going a little too much here.
So, my sense is there'll be some other folks that step in, whether it's Susie Wiles and some other folks in the administration, say, okay, let's pull back just a little bit, let's add another layer. But they're not going to slow down per se. I think there'll just be a couple extra internal checks and balances. They haven't even really gotten to HHS --
COATES: Well --
SUNUNU: -- or the Defense Department or all these other agencies where there are hundreds of billions to be saved.
COATES: Well, governor, how do you think people could prove their merit and worth if they're going at a neck break pace? How -- what would that look like? Imagine it was your administration as the governor and you're the head of the executive branch in your own state, right? Imagine what that would look like for people under your umbrella. How would they prove --
SUNUNU: Sure. It would be very easy.
COATES: -- that they ought to be there?
SUNUNU: I would tell every agency, here's the deal, you have two weeks to put together a two-page summary about what your value is, what your costs are, how you're managing them, how you find waste and fraud within yourselves, you know, to prove that not just there's value there, but you're doing the right things internally by the taxpayer dollar and the net savings.
But again, Americans aren't really complaining right now. They're really not. They like that something is happening. They -- everyone appreciates it. Maybe it's going a little aggressively fast, but it's better than nothing, and we've had nothing for too, too long. So, there -- it's an engineering -- it's an engineering strategy. You have to make sure you're eliminating things that shouldn't have been justified in the first place, and then you go into efficiency and optimization.
I'm an engineer. He's an engineer. In this case, again, it's jobs and there's a lot to get through there. That's the main reason why they're going so fast. They only have 18 months, right? DOGE only exists for 18 months. And they have to go through $7 trillion of spending. That has been buried in bureaucracy. Never had accountability before. So, there's a lot to dig in.
COATES: You know, I know there's a lot of thought about the popularity of what Musk is doing. There is a CNN new poll, though, that shows that 54% of Americans think -- 54% think that giving Musk a prominent role is a bad thing. So, is he becoming a kind of political liability in spite of that? I mean, the poll, by the way, also showing that 55% think that Trump does not have the right priorities, 62% think that he's not doing enough to bring down prices. So, how do you balance all of these things?
SUNUNU: Sure. Well, you know, one thing I tell people on both sides of the aisle, you have to take personality out of it. I don't care whether you like Trump or not. I don't care whether you like Musk or not. Look at the results they're bringing, look at the actions they're taking, and then let's have a discussion on that. A lot of people may or may not like Musk and Trump or Kamala Harris or Joe Biden for all these other reasons. But let's look at the merit of what they're doing and the results that they're bringing. And government has to be all about results.
So, that's the pushback I would give there. I don't care whether they like Elon or not. He's doing what no one has had the guts to do for a while. He's only an outsider and a non-politician who does not care about getting re-elected to something, whatever, the courage to do and the smart to do it. We owe $36 trillion. The government doesn't owe that money, Laura. You do. Ny neighbor does. I do. We all owe $36 trillion. And we have to get it under control.
Do you know that's the equivalent of giving someone $100 a second for 11,000 years? That's what we owe. It's a real number. So, these guys are saying there's a path to a balanced budget, but it takes someone with the courage to make tough decisions, like you do in your family or a business owner does or a state government does because all governors actually do this.
You know, all the Republican governors wrote Trump a letter in January saying, we've balanced budgets, we've found efficiency, we know how to do what you're about to start, lean on us for the help and the assistance to find where this waste is.
[23:09:59]
I think that's where the president's visit to the Republican Governors Association today, I think, probably yielded a lot of good results.
COATES: I wonder what he will learn from them, he will implement through a non-governor who is, of course, Elon Musk. But, you know, Trump has been joking. And he keeps joking, frankly, governor, about a third term. But you know who is not? His former advisor, Steve Bannon. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: And the future of MAGA is Donald J. Trump.
(APPLAUSE)
We want Trump in '28.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Very quickly, governor, would you be in favor of, of course, amending the 22nd Amendment to allow Trump to serve a third term?
SUNUNU: No.
COATES: I didn't get the question. You said no.
SUNUNU: Nobody would. That's nonsense. COATES: There you go. Well, then why this -- why is Bannon saying it?
SUNUNU: No. Nobody cares what Steve Bannon says. I'm sorry. Because Steve Bannon is an idiot. And nobody really cares what Steve Bannon says. He's a showman. He's not even part of really the White House staff and the advisory thing here. So, that's a bunch of nonsense. This is going to be what's already leaning up to be an incredibly productive four years.
Now, we've got a long way to go, right? We're 34, 40 days into this thing and look at how much that they've pushed so far. So, he's going to have to lean on Congress, get stuff passed through Congress. There's a long way to go here, but no one is looking for a third term.
COATES: Governor, please come back when you can form an opinion, particularly about Steve Bannon. Okay? Thank you so much for your coming today.
We are, as the governor said, a month into Trump's second term. And according to a new CNN poll, 52% of Americans say the president has gone too far in using his presidential power.
I want to bring in Republican strategist Lance Trover and CNN political commentator Jamal Simmons. Glad to have you both here. I'll begin with you, Lance. Trump and Musk, they have been boasting about the pace of these cuts. I want you to listen to a 9/11 first responder, who I spoke to last night, who would help secure federal funding for the World Trade Center Health Program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN FEAL, 9/11 RESPONDER: They have no legitimate argument to cut 20% of the staff of those affected by the aftermath of 9/11. Heroes and survivors, those who worked and went to school in Lower Manhattan, and the cops and the firefighters with stage three, stage four or more than one cancer. This is -- this is repulsive at its highest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, you know that there are more and more decisions being reversed. Is this and is there a question of competence with this DOGE purge, Lance?
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR DOUG BURGUM'S 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: No. I mean, look, change is hard. Breaking up the status quo, breaking up this hold this administrative state has had on this country for umpteen years is hard. It's going to be difficult. They've acknowledged as much.
Elon said last week in the Oval Office that, look, yeah, we're moving fast. You heard the governor talk about it. They need to move fast. And Elon acknowledged in the Oval Office meeting that, look, things are going to get broken. But when those things get broken, they recognize they shouldn't be, they will correct those. You've referenced several of those things here prior. But, look, yeah, it's -- change is hard and breaking up this administrative state is hard, but it has to be done, and Donald Trump has been committed to doing it from day one.
And I don't think Elon Musk is worried about his poll numbers, to be completely honest. I think this is a guy who's coming in to try to do the right thing and get this government under control. And, look he's doing a good job right now. So, I -- you know, I don't think he's worried about it. I wouldn't underestimate this guy, who is the richest guy in the world and had a lot of success. He moves fast, he moves hard, but he has been successful in almost everything he has ever done.
COATES: That is like the (INAUDIBLE) "Fast & Furious" number 27. Let me ask you, though, Jamal, are you in this camp of break first and then rebuild later?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I was listening to Governor Sununu say that he is an engineer. And, you know, Elon Musk is an engineer. I'm from Detroit. I'm not an engineer. But I know something about cars. And if you snatch the engine out and you snatch the brakes out, that car is going to crash, right? That's not a way to actually fix a car. You don't go around just grabbing things and throwing them away.
I have always spent my career in government worried about American competitiveness, American strength. What they're doing right now is putting Americans at risk.
I've got a friend whose brother was in USAID. I can't say his name because they asked me not to. They can't say what country he went to because they asked me not to. But they were in a country, owed people money because they had staff. They had vendors that they were supposed to pay. Money dried up. They weren't going to be able to do it. They had to basically scuttle this guy out of the country as fast as possible to make sure he wasn't going to be held accountable and maybe kept and detained in the country because the American government stopped paying his bills. Right?
They're putting Americans at risk. You talked about bird flu, we talked about nuclear armaments, we talked about veterans, we're calling the crisis line and people can't answer the phone. The first duty of the president is to keep Americans safe. That's not what's happening.
COATES: Well, Lance, let me ask you this part because you got a Quinnipiac University poll.
[23:15:00]
It found only 21% of voters approved the way that Democrats in Congress are doing their job. But this, I think, would probably inure to the detriment of something like the Republicans as well. Are you suggesting that because this has been so slow in the past, which has 25 years, you've mentioned, and beyond, is -- if the work of one person can replace 435 plus 100, don't Republicans worry a little bit about being rendered obsolete if they are part of the machine of inefficiency?
TROVER: I'm not sure. I think both parties are guilty of not moving on what they say they would do. And I think that's what Donald Trump has said time and again. And I mean, you make a good point about the Democrats and their polling level right now. I mean, if anything, I would certainly want Donald Trump's.
I mean, look, the CNN poll today has him at a 47% approval rating. CBS had him at a 53% approval rating a week ago. Let's split the baby for purposes of this discussion and say he's hovering around a 50% approval rating. I mean, that is pretty good. I would argue it's because one, he's very transparent with the American public. He takes questions from reporters every single day and talks to them, but two, he's doing what he said he would do. And that was also in the CNN poll.
And I think voters give him a lot of credit for doing what he said he's going to do. We can parse whether they like some of the things he does, they are doing some of the things he's not doing, that may be the case, but he's still hovering around a 50% approval rating, which says to me that most of the voters out there are giving him a long runway to try to get some of this stuff under control.
COATES: Jamal, I bet, if I had to guess, the federal response polling rate is at a zero right now. I think how they must feel always have a sort of Damocles. But it's a fair question. Are Democrats doing what they need to do to repel what's happening?
SIMMONS: Democrats are doing half of what they need to do, right?
COATES: Well --
SIMMONS: The first half of what they need to do is stop the worst things from happening. We've got lawsuits all over the place. Judges are stepping up. The members of Congress can't do very much because they don't have control of either branch of Congress. But they are making a public display of it.
Now, that is half the battle. The other half of the battle is Democrats are going to have to offer their own agenda for change. It's clear the American public wants things to change. They want something to be different about how we govern the country and how the country is working for them.
So, if I'm sitting inside a democratic office right now, I'm thinking about how do we talk about the things that we want to change and we want to make better. One idea is most Americans think that this idea of COVID learning loss that we've had over the last few years is very real. Parents are struggling with it. Schools are struggling with. What is the democratic plan to do that? Don't just defend the Department of Education, but defend how it is we make education work for American kids that uses the federal government in a creative and impactful way.
COATES: So just react to rhetoric. Act.
SIMMONS: Right.
COATES: Hmm. Novel. Lance Trover, Jamal Simmons, thank you both so much. Still ahead, he has spent years attacking the FBI. Well, tonight, he's leading it. Newly-confirmed FBI Director Kash Patel set to take over one of the most powerful agencies in the country, if not the world. As Democrats are warning their Republican colleagues, this is one pick they say they'll regret.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Kash Patel, mark my words, will cause evil in this building behind us, and Republicans who vote for him will rue that day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: There's a new sheriff at the J. Edgar Hoover Building. The Senate confirming Kash Patel as the FBI director with the slimmest of margins, 51 to 49. Senators Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins the lone Republican holdouts. So, what will Patel do on day one at the FBI? Well, he has already given us a hint.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR, FBI: I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state.
We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: He's also promising that there will be -- quote -- "no politicization and no retribution at the bureau."
Let's talk about it now with Christopher O'Leary, former FBI agent and senior vice president for global operations at the Soufan Group, and Garrett Graff, author of "The Threat Matrix, Inside Robert Mueller's FBI and the War on Global Terror."
Garrett, I'll begin with you because, as you know, Patel, he is now one of the top law enforcement officials in the entire country. So, I wonder what his leadership will mean for the FBI and, frankly, the broad work that it does to protect Americans.
GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, AUTHOR: I think Kash Patel is in many ways the most dangerous pick that Donald Trump has made for any office that he has. This is a role that, for 50 years, we have tried very, very hard to depoliticize and keep the FBI independent and nonpartisan.
And Congress, the presidency, the Justice Department, the courts have all built extensive guardrails and oversight structures to try to undo the damage and the legacy that J. Edgar Hoover did when he politicized and weaponized the FBI in the 1950s and 1960s.
And Kash Patel is all of that J. Edgar Hoover was with an added layer of, I think, particular personal worry for me, which is his loyalty to this president above any adherence to the rule of law.
COATES: Because, of course, FBI directors are supposed to exceed the term of any one president. Of course, that has been ticked away from James Comey to now Christopher Wray as well.
Chris, let me ask you this question because there's a lot of damage that has been done. I mean, already, even before he was confirmed, by the way, which some people wonder, is it to make sure he had clean hands when he entered into this office position?
[23:25:03]
But you had senior officials who were dismissed. You got thousands of FBI agents who may have worked on January 6 cases having to fill out a sort of questionnaire of sorts. Talk to me about the morale impact and the ability to effectively lead, but also to act as an agent now.
CHRISTOPHER O'LEARY, FORMER FBI AGENT, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT FOR GLOBAL OPERATIONS AT SOUFAN GROUP: Well, the morale is terrible. I've been on the phone non-stop for weeks with agents at every level, the most senior people, the most junior people. I mean, I only left a little over a year ago after doing a career in counterterrorism and in operations. I actually worked with Kash Patel, worked closely, as you know, with Emil Bove, as well as, you know, the acting director and acting deputy director.
Morale is at an all-time low and it will impact operations and that means the security of this country. So that's problematic. Now, Director Patel can come in and change that dynamic quickly, but he has a decision to make and, you know, not to be cute, but it's a fork in the road.
He can choose to be a fool or a coward doing the bidding of Emil Bove and the administration and carrying out this neo-inquisition of the FBI based on a false narrative or he can pivot away from that, and he can stand up and be a principal leader, setting up for justice, the rule of law, acting with integrity, being a leader setting the example, things that we saw in Acting Director Brian Driscoll, and Rob Kissane, the deputy director, and the assistant director of the New York office, James Dennehy.
That's what the FBI needs. That's what the country needs. So, he can get the trust and the confidence of the FBI back and back on focus for their mission, but he's got to make that decision soon. COATES: You know, and just to talk about morale, Garrett, it's not as if people are -- we're talking about morale, that they're huffy in a corner, right? This is about, do they think they can do their job without a sort of Damocles over their head, that every move they make puts them at risk of losing their livelihood and being challenged on everything?
I mean, some Republicans, Garrett, they have argued that the fears about Patel are totally overblown, that this is, like, hyperbole, Democratic hair on fire, that he'll bring transparent to the bureau, that his statements at the confirmation hearing belie what he had said previously. Is that what you expect from a Patel directorship? More transparency in the FBI?
GRAFF: Yeah, I don't think there's any reason to take anything that he said at his confirmation hearing at face value. I mean, there are meaningful allegations the Democratic senators even raised, that he committed perjury in his confirmation hearings by saying that he had not been involved in some of these purges of high-level executives in the first weeks of the Trump administration that he may actually have been involved in.
And I think, and Christopher O'Leary understands this, part of the challenge of the FBI is that most agents have very little visibility into the investigations that they're working on. So, the whole point of the FBI is it's one organization working together. And so, you as an agent get these leads to go out and do these interviews for cases where you don't necessarily understand the whole big picture of the case.
Now, in the wake of these sort of, you know, decrees from the Justice Department for the names of January 6-related agents, you know, I think every agent is sitting there wondering, you know, do I want to get involved in this other case that I don't really understand? You know, just how far out on a limb do I want to go for another agent?
COATES: Yeah.
GRAFF: You know, how much do I actually need to know about these cases and these leads before I decide whether this is good for my career?
COATES: And yeah, as Chris and I have talked before, you don't have much of a choice in the cases you get. Really quick.
O'LEARY: You don't, but let me also point out, FBI agents aren't the only people who worked the January 6th.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
O'LEARY: Those leads were assigned to Joint Terrorism Task Forces. So, I was here in New York as the assistant special agent in charge. I assigned those leads to FBI agents, to NYPD detectives, to state troopers, to Secret Service agents, U.S. Marshals. But they're not asking for all the people who worked these cases, they're asking for a list of FBI personnel. So, that's indicative of the fact that they're looking to target the FBI for cause. That's all.
COATES: Wow, that's saying a lot. Thank you so much, Christopher O'Leary, Garrett Graff. Thank you both.
Up next, a former NFL punter's protest against a MAGA plaque going viral and catapults him to full (INAUDIBLE) status among the Trump resistance. So, what was he trying to accomplish? Well, his name is Chris Kluwe, and I'll ask him that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Four words on the plaque going up at a California library have thrown a city into the crosshairs of a political controversy. Those words, magical, alluring, galvanizing, and adventurous. The acronym, AKA MAGA. Underneath those words is this quote: "Through hope and change, our nation has built back better to the golden era of make America great again." Note the references to Obama's hope and change and Biden's build back better and, of course, Trump's MAGA.
Well, leaders in Huntington Beach approved the privately financed plaque, but not before one man spoke up against it. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS KLUWE, FORMER NFL PUNTER ARRESTED AFTER PROTESTING MAGA PLAQUE: MAGA stands for re-segregation and racism. MAGA stands for censorship and book bans. MAGA stands for firing air traffic controllers while planes are crashing. MAGA stands for firing the people overseeing our nuclear arsenal.
[23:34:57]
MAGA stands for firing military veterans and those serving them at the VA, including canceling research on veteran suicide. MAGA stands for cutting funds to education, including for disabled children. MAGA is profoundly corrupt, unmistakably anti-democracy. And most importantly, MAGA is explicitly a Nazi movement. You may have replaced a swastika with a red hat, but that is what it is.
(APPLAUSE)
I will now engage in the time-honored American tradition of peaceful civil disobedience.
(APPLAUSE)
COATES: That's former NFL punter Chris Kluwe. Police carried him off after he approached city council members. Kluwe says he was charged with a misdemeanor and held in custody for about four hours.
(END VIDEO CLIP) You know what? Chris Kluwe joins me now. Chris, thank you for joining. Everyone has been talking about this moment, and I'm wondering, why did you decide to take this particular course of action.
KLUWE: Well, first and foremost, it's because the Huntington Beach City Council does not care about the community of Huntington Beach. They've made it very obvious that their goal is to advance their own interests, to rise higher in Trump's sphere of influence. And you can see that by our city attorney, Michael Gates, leaving the city and being appointed to Trump's administration. So, that's really a problem, when a city council doesn't have its city's best interests in mind.
COATES: And why did this particular plaque spur this reaction more than, say, he's leaving?
KLUWE: So, for me, it's the fact that MAGA, as I said, is explicitly a Nazi ideology. And it's -- they are coming after trans rights. They're coming after re-segregation and racism. Like, they are tearing down our government because they can only see power for themselves and they don't care who they hurt to have to get it.
And I feel that a political message like that is certainly not appropriate on a public library. And let's face it, public libraries, they are apolitical places. There should be no political message on the public library. It's a space for everyone to come in, regardless of your political affiliation.
COATES: People have really bristled at the notion of your statement about MAGA being a -- quote -- "Nazi movement." Some look at this as you painting an extremely broad brush when it comes to describing all of those who supported Trump and voted for him. What's your reaction to those who say that is a highly offensive decision, to even say that that's what you associate MAGA with?
KLUWE: I would say that during the 1930s, there were a lot of very good Germans who trusted Hitler and thought he had their best interests in mind, and so they followed him because they believed that he would do the right thing for them. And then in 1946, there were a lot of very good Germans who had a lot of regrets. I think, right now, there are a lot of good Americans who think Trump has their best interests in mind.
But Trump clearly has his own interests in mind, and he does not care about anyone else. And I would rather not see those people have regrets when the bodies stop falling and the blood stops being shed because they did the right thing now instead of waiting.
COATES: You know, I am not somebody who thinks that you're only supposed to be outspoken on election day. You really vote throughout the course of your lives with every action that you take. And yet the rhetoric you talk about and a lot of the criticism that you have for MAGA policies, they were stated before the election. Why do you think that did not resonate with voters?
KLUWE: Because I don't think voters thought that he meant it. Again, Hitler promised what he was going to do. He explicitly laid out, Jews are the problem, I am going to get rid of them, that will make this country great. Trump has said immigrants are the problem, trans people are the problem, we are going to get rid of them, and that will make this country great. And it is very, very similar to what Hitler promised and it's not going to make this country great. It's just going to make this country worse.
COATES: Let me just go back to the moment when you approached that podium. I understand your intention when you're walking up there. I understand you expected that your act of what you say with civil disobedience was going to land you with the police coming to you and being handcuffed. You stopped before you actually reached that podium. But what has been the response to your action?
KLUWE: Overwhelmingly positive. I've had a lot of people reach out and say, you know, thank you for standing up, thank you for taking a stand. And I've had a lot of people, and I believe this as well, saying, I wish my elected officials were doing the same.
And I have a message for our elected officials, particularly our Democratic elected officials, is that I've done my part. I've shown you how to do it. Now, it's your turn because you are the people that we elected and you are the people that need to step up and stop this madness because we have a man who put a crown on his head.
[23:39:57]
And I can't think of anything more fundamentally un-American than in a president wearing a crown that goes against everything this country stands for.
COATES: Chris Kluwe, thank you so much for joining tonight.
KLUWE: Thank you for having me.
COATES: Up next, he's one of the most popular podcasts hosts out there. But is the Joe Rogan experience starting to lose some of its shine? Why some of his fans are suddenly getting annoyed by one of Rogan's new political obsessions? Can you guess what it is?
Plus, Elon Musk has long talked about how great of a feature it is to have community notes as a fact check on his platform. So, why do you think it's broken all of a sudden?
Brian Stelter, he's here to explain all of it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: A king no more? Joe Rogan has been dethroned from the top of the podcast charts. I mean, at least temporarily. And it was by a left leaning anti-Trump podcast called the "Midas Touch."
[23:45:02]
Now, these charts, of course, they're always changing. And the reasons behind audience ebbs and flows, there could be many. But there has been some grumbling amongst Rogan's audience over his glowing coverage of Elon Musk. Coverage, well, like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, PODCASTER: This other thing about Elon, Elon is going to steal everybody's money. He has $400 billion. I'm telling you, he's not going to steal your money. I'm telling you, that's not what he's doing. What he's doing is, he's a super genius that has been (bleep).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, what do fans think about that? Let's turn to the Joe Rogan Reddit page where one and a half million of his fans come together to talk about the show. Joe is state-run propagandist media. Very nice. I seriously can't even listen to him anymore. It sucks so much, man. I really love this show. Another one, Joe and his anti- elite billionaire friends are becoming the swamp they've always hated.
Here to discuss, CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter. Brian, I mean, Trump was famously on Rogan before the election. He was --
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST, AUTHOR, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT FOR VANITY FAIR: Right.
COATES: -- credited for having done a lot to get him elected at one point in time.
STELTER: Yeah.
COATES: Why is the shine wearing off?
STELTER: Number one, you know, it makes sense that an anti-Trump podcast that publishes all day long is suddenly rising up the charts. There's a lot of energy in this country. People concerned about what's happening. So, it does make sense, Rogan has some new competition.
But I also think Rogan's success, his premise, is that he's an independent, heterodox, free-thinking individual. And, you know, he's in line with no one, supporting no party, just out there trying to figure it out for himself to the extent that he has given up his independence, and it seems like he has just picked one party and picked to be on the MAGA team, then that loses some of the energy. I think it loses some of his street creds, so to speak.
COATES: The fact that it's Elon Musk that he's pointing out, I mean, Elon Musk is somebody who also doesn't -- may not like to be criticized at all. I mean, just putting that lightly.
STELTER: Yes.
COATES: He has an issue now with the fact checking apparatus on X. Tell me about it.
STELTER: Yeah, this is fascinating. This is today -- earlier today, Musk saying, Community Notes, which is his very -- he's very proud of this. This is the replacement for fact checking on X. Community Notes is a system where people on the left, people on the right, they come together, they determine what is true, what is false, and they attach notes to people's tweets. They oftentimes attach notes to Musk's tweets because Musk is posting so much miss and disinformation.
Earlier today, a message attached to one of Musk's posts was correcting him about Zelenskyy and Ukraine. Musk responded by saying, this system is being gamed by legacy media, we're going to look at how to fix it.
COATES: Hmm.
STELTER: The implication from Musk's post was that he doesn't like to be fact- checked, so he's going to remove the fact-checkers. He's going to remove this community-run system. This is the same system Mark Zuckerberg just embraced and said he's going to use on Facebook. Musk cannot stand being criticized. When he's criticized, he says people should be fired, he says people should be put in jail. This is par for the course from this guy.
COATES: Well, he doesn't like it, and we'll see if the chainsaw analogy continues in that realm. We'll see if Mark Zuckerberg --
STELTER: Yeah.
COATES: -- also follows suit. Brian Stelter, great to have you here.
STELTER: Good to see you.
COATES: Thank you. Hey, everyone, just in tonight, Justin Trudeau getting the last laugh against President Trump on the ice as Canada beats Team USA in a politically tense match. Wait till you see Trudeau's reaction next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Well, tonight, a dramatic finish on the ice in Boston as Canada beats Team USA in a politically-tinged Four Nations faceoff final.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Canada (INAUDIBLE).
COATES: Canada claiming bragging rights with a 3-2 overtime win and sticking it to President Trump. The teams had been chippy on the ice ever since Trump started threatening to take over Canada, mocking it as the 51st state and calling Prime Minister Justin Trudeau the 51st governor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They get 95% of their product from the United States. I think they have to become the 51st state. And you heard the people booing the national anthem. But I think, ultimately, they'll be praising the national anthem. We'll have to work out some deal with them because I do like the old Canada, right? It's a beautiful thing. I think we're going to have to keep it for the 51st state. I call him Governor Trudeau.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Trudeau, though, firing back tonight, trash talking on X just moments ago. Quote -- "You can't take our country -- and you can't take our game."
I want to bring in Adrian Wenner. He's an actor and screenwriter who has a piece out in "The Daily Beast" today called "The Hockey Bros are Fighting, and it's an Own Goal for Trump." Also, with me, comedian Pete Dominick. Glad to have both of you with me tonight, fellas. Let me begin with you, Pete. Canada coming out on top. That's going to be what for this political fight?
PETE DOMINICK, COMEDIAN: It's going to be a huge, huge momentum for Canadians and an insult to Americans and to Trump. I mean, it can only be seen that way. You know, I've been talking to a lot of Canadians, Laura, and they're unified against America. They were very divided, same way we were in different ways, liberal, conservative. They've never been more unified, their country, against America or on anything because of what Trump and his spokespeople are saying.
I mean, Karoline Leavitt said today in the White House briefing room, also called Canada the 51st state. They don't like it, they don't have the luxury of thinking that Trump is a joke around, and they have a lot of pride in their game for beating Russia, Jr. tonight.
[23:55:03]
COATES: And he -- oh, I heard -- I heard that shade at the very end. Thank you so much. Adrian, let me turn to you because you say the U.S. are the new A holes of the sporting world. Explain.
ADRIAN WENNER, ACTOR, SCREENWRITER: Yeah. Well, you know, when I was growing up in my youth, we were the good guys. We were the shining city on the Hill. We were the bastion of democracy that the world rooted for. And now, we're the bullies and the world doesn't like it. And it turns out you can't, you know, disparage a whole country and tell people you're going to take over their land and not have some blowback. And you saw it, you know, last week in Canada when they booed our national anthem.
COATES: Yup.
WENNER: And then, you know, the only goal is that our players then chose to like fight about it, which to me breaks most of the codes of hockey.
COATES: To fight breaks the codes of hockey. I'm -- there's -- somewhere, there's a Mighty Ducks reference in here, but I can't put my finger on it. Let me turn to you. I want to look at that Trudeau statement again. You can't take our country, he said, and you can't take our game. How do you think Trump is going to respond to that?
DOMINICK: Oh, you know he's going to fire back --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DOMINICK: -- and he's going to make all kinds of insults and jokes not only to Trudeau, I'm sure, because he always has to get the last word, has to get revenge. But he's going to continue making these comments about Canada. You know, I grew up in a country -- I think the most patriotic thing you can do is to stand up against your country if it's trying to invade another sovereign nation.
I mean, I was in the streets against the invasion of Iraq, and I think all good Americans that love our country should be standing up against this kind of threat and this kind of talk against Canada, who has been nothing but our best friend our whole lifetimes.
COATES: You know, Adrian, this is clearly more than just about the game of hockey, right? I mean, we know that hockey, you get the penalty box, you know the skirmishes are nothing new in a simple game. But this game had things that we hadn't seen before in quite some time. I mean, you had the multiple fights, you had loud boos, as you mentioned during the national anthem. That game was in Canada. But tonight's was in Beantown, was in Boston. Is that why this had a different feel?
WENNER: Yeah, I think it was very much charged. I mean, look, Canada played a great game, lost on home ice, I guess, and they came ready to go tonight. And -- but I certainly -- you know, with the rumor that Trump was going to go to this game and -- I mean, of course, he's going to pour gasoline on a fire that he started. But you know, I think it's like to step up in front of that crowd, I mean, anyone who plays hockey will tell you, Boston, they're mean and they -- they're going -- they're going to be the sort of seventh guy on the ice. And Canada just played it -- played their hearts out.
COATES: On that point, Adrian, I mean --
DOMINICK: Laura --
COATES: -- these players -- yeah, Pete, go ahead.
DOMINICK: Well, you know, I just -- I always love coming on your show and it's great being on with Adrian but, listen, I always like turning the table and asking you questions. You grew up in Minnesota right there on the border.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DOMINICK: You know Canada. And what do you think that is going to happen? What do you think -- what do you see happening right here with all these threats to Canada and our president making these threats?
COATES: Well, I didn't grow up on the border of Canada. But yes, I was down in the Twin Cities, known as St. Paul. You are correct. And let me tell you something. I look at all that's going on and there are so many conversations that are happening in the middle of America. And people think our flyover states that have direct relationships in it, more direct way than, say, just the conversation around what this might feel like.
And I think that people should not underestimate the way that this is impacting relationships, the ways it's affecting how people view their stability in the overall global landscape. And certainly, make some people nervous. They might just say, A, at the end of every single sentence just to be friendlier to our Canadian neighbors. A? What do you think, Adrian?
WENNER: I would just -- I would just add, you know, when the sporting world starts to boo us and when we've lost like all the friends that we've had in the years since like the miracle on ice, we've always been the good guy. We are suddenly the bad guy, and we've got a guy in the office who likes being the bad guy. So, if you're going to be the bad guy, you're going to pay. You're going to take some flat for it.
COATES: Are we giving ourselves too much credit, though? Do you really think that Americans have been viewed by the world as always the good guy in sports or otherwise? I think we are hated for a number of reasons athletically, even if we are praised and our players for Olympic teams and beyond.
DOMINICK: I think that's a good question. I think it's debatable. I think you could look at a different year and different Olympic event or whatever it was.
[00:00:02]
But I would argue that, yeah, a lot of times, you were the good guy. And, you know, you look back at the 1980 miracle on ice. Russia was the bad guy. Russia, the USSR, was always the bad guy, the big, bad guy on the block. And more of the world was rooting for democracy, rooting for American. I think that has been the story in general. You can go back to, you know, all the Olympians that stood up against, you know, Hitler, white supremacy, (INAUDIBLE) and so on.
But I think that we have been the good guy a lot. But I think, as Adrian just said, we look like the bad guy now. Like, we're the Russians now. And I was making that joke here. But that's how I see us.
COATES: No, did I say when we're hated? I mean, God, I hate that I have to play them. They're so good. Adrian Wenner, Pete Dominick, thank you both so much. And hey, everyone, thank you for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
