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Laura Coates Live

Police Investigate Mysterious Death of Gene Hackman; Epstein Documents Release Cause Rift in MAGA World; Trump Voter Caught Up in DOGE Cuts Speaks Out. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 27, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: A mystery in New Mexico. Gene Hackman and his wife found dead inside their home. Tonight, the new clue is emerging about what may have happened. Plus, MAGA outrage over the release of Jeffrey Epstein documents. The hyped- up files falling flat and now leading to a mini civil war among Trump's top supporters. And what do Trump voters think about all these mass layoffs? Well, one woman who turned to him in 2024, only to get cut by DOGE, is my guest. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

Now, you know, tonight, it should be a moment of remembrance for a Hollywood legend. And believe me, for this fan, it is. But Gene Hackman's death is also raising all kinds of questions and sparking a police investigation.

Here's why: The 95-year-old actor wasn't the only one found dead inside his Santa Fe home. Hackman's body was discovered in a room near the kitchen, but his 65-year-old wife, Betsy Arakawa, was found on the bathroom floor. Scattered pills were around her body with an open prescription bottle on the countertop. One of their dogs was found dead in the bathroom closet, about 10 to 15 feet away from Hackman's wife.

A caretaker who showed up at the house yesterday says that they saw bodies through the window. He then made a frantic call to 911.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Do they appear to be awake or alert?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): No, no, no.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Are they moving at all?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): No, dude, they're not moving. Just send somebody out here really quick.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Okay. My units are on their way, okay?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: That caretaker told authorities his last contact with Hackman and his wife was two weeks ago. It appears they had been dead for a while.

Police say both bodies showed signs of decomposition, the beginnings of mummification of feet and hands. Police are now -- they're trying to piece together what exactly happened. The sheriff says there are no obvious signs of any foul play, but he's not ruling out that it could be a possibility.

We've got our reporters and analysts here to walk us through what we now know. We will also talk about Hackman's life and his legacy as a two-time Oscar winner with actor Keith David, who co-starred with him in "The Quick and the Dead."

Let's begin with the investigation unfolding in Santa Fe, New Mexico. CNN's Josh Campbell live outside the sheriff's office tonight. Josh, the sheriff's office, they did release some preliminary information about the autopsy. Can you give us the details they revealed?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, we got that information, Laura, this evening from officials here in Santa Fe, the Sheriff's Department, and what they indicated is that they have conducted autopsies on both Gene Hackman as well as his wife, Betsy.

And what they indicated is, thus far, based on that initial assessment, they found no external trauma. They did order carbon monoxide and toxicology tests to be done, that standard practice with any type of death investigation that may have been, you know, happened under suspicious circumstances. And so, we are waiting for that information to come in.

But, of course, this isn't just a tragedy, this is a gigantic mystery as well because of all the factors that you just mentioned. Yesterday afternoon, a 911 call came in from a caretaker who said that they found these people home, and they were deceased. Authorities were dispatched there.

Interestingly, they found the door was open. It was not secure. They didn't find any evidence of any type of theft. But as you mentioned, they found Betsy's body in one area near pills that were scattered and, of course, Gene Hackman's body in another area. A dog was found deceased as well inside the closet near where Betsy was. So, a lot of major questions here. One thing early in the day, people were wondering, well, could this have been some type of maybe carbon monoxide poisoning or a gas leak? The Fire Department was dispatched as well as the local utilities, and they determined that, no, they couldn't find any indication of that. Investigation very much underway.

COATES: A real mystery, Josh Campbell, thank you so much.

I want to bring in CNN chief law enforcement analyst John Miller along with Frank DePaolo, who was a former chief of special operations for the New York City Medical Examiner's Office. Frank, let me begin with you here. Did it surprise you when police initially said no foul play was suspected?

FRANK DEPAOLO, FORMER CHIEF OF SPECIAL OPERATIONS, NEW YORK CITY MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE: Very much so.

[23:05:00]

The circumstances of -- very unusual circumstances of having two individuals deceased in the same home along with the pet and an unsecured apartment or door to a home warrants, you know, concern. I was surprised to hear that they did not believe there were circumstances or suspicious circumstances early on.

COATES: So, Frank, what would you be looking for had you entered the Hackman's home?

DEPAOLO: Well, you know, there are two aspects to the investigation. My perspective is having overseen medical legal investigations for the city of New York for many years. We would arrive as the medical legal investigative component of this two-pronged investigation along with working collaboratively with law enforcement.

Upon entering the home, we would already be aware that there were decedents inside. What typically occurs early on is a walkthrough with the facility. And the purpose of that walkthrough is to get a sense as to what's happening. You know, is there clear evidence of a crime scene or is there any other suspicious or untoward circumstances that need to be further investigated? The fact that you've got two individuals who are deceased is very unusual. And that, as I said earlier alone, warrants a significant investigation.

COATES: John, let me bring you in here. And I -- I wonder, what would be the evidence that you think would be the most important in helping detectives figure out what happened here?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, you've got to approach this from a number of different angles because of what you don't have. What you don't have is a clear crime scene with, you know, a clear assault or a clear suicide or a clear toxic agent. So, now, you have to go backwards, which is you have to go one step at a time and prove what it's not until you eliminate it to small things of what it could be. So, let's go through that. It could be that there were toxins in the air, whether it was carbon monoxide or something else. Remember, just to get the cops and the crime scene people in there, they had to test that environment to make sure it was safe for them to go in, and they found no sign.

But also remember, as Josh told us, these bodies have been there for maybe 10 days, possibly two weeks. So, that doesn't tell us what the air condition was at the time they died. So, you've got to look at the equipment in the house, what was putting out air, the space heater that was in the bathroom. You really got to over all that stuff.

Simultaneously, you have to go into their lives and start paging through it. What were their emails saying? You've got to get search warrants for those computers and contacts. You've got to interview their friends and their physicians. Was someone diagnosed with some terminal illness that could have influenced the decision? Did one person fall down?

Gene Hackman is in the mud room where it looks like he fell. His cane is over here. His sunglasses are there. And did he die from that fall or was it something in the air? Did she determine that she didn't want to go on without him and take an overdose of pills so that they could go together?

None of these are things that we know. But when you go through all of the mathematical possibilities of what could be, you have to consider all of them with an open mind --

COATES: Yeah.

MILLER: -- including foul play.

COATES: Really, this is the beginning, the infancy of the investigation, as you both have described it. And Frank, I do wonder about some of the conditions that they do and are aware of. Police say that Hackman and his wife appeared as though they had been deceased for some time. They showed signs of -- quote -- "mummification." So, how might the state of their remains impact the autopsy?

DEPAOLO: Well, the presence of decomposition, in this case, from what we're hearing, it may have been several weeks-worth of decomposition along with mummification that occurred, you know, can impede the ability first at the scene to determine if there's any evidence of trauma.

So, it really does require, ultimately, in these cases, for a thorough investigation in the form of the external and internal autopsy that will be conducted back at the office of the medical examiner to really try to determine if there are signs of blunt or penetrating trauma, first and foremost. But it's a difficult task, right? Dealing with that level of decomposition.

COATES: John Miller, Frank DePaolo, thank you both so much. Very illuminating tonight, I know. Everyone wants to know what happened.

[23:10:01]

Thank you.

The two daughters and granddaughter of Gene Hackman remembering the patriarch in a very touching statement, saying -- quote -- "He was loved and admired by millions around the world for his brilliant acting career, but to us, he was always just Dad and Grandpa."

To millions of movie fans, he was the consummate everyman, playing dozens of roles that related to all of our lives. From starring as a New York City detective in that famous car chase from "The French Connection" to playing the supervillain Lex Luthor, arch nemesis of Superman, Hackman won a slew of awards for these roles, including two Oscars. Some of his most iconic roles were in westerns like the 1995 epic "The Quick and the Dead," which produced, if you remember, this memorable scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENE HACKMAN, ACTOR: I'm confused. All I hear from you, you spineless cowards, is how poor you are. That you can't afford my taxes, my protection. And yet, somehow, you've all managed to find the money to hire a professional gunfighter to kill me.

(GUNSHOT)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: With me now, the co-star of that powerful scene with Hackman, actor Keith David. So happy to have you a part of this experience today, albeit for this sad reason when we remember and reflect on his career. Keith, what was your initial reaction to the passing of Gene Hackman and his wife?

KEITH DAVID, ACTOR: I'm still in shock because I didn't find out until late this afternoon as I came home for lunch. And my wife told me, and I was like, wow! I mean, the kind of irony is I was thinking about him last night --

COATES: Really?

DAVID: -- because as I was going through some pictures, I came across this picture, which is of me and Woody Strode. And, you know, this was Woody's last movie. And I started thinking about Gene. And as I thought about Gene, Joan Darling, who was one of my teachers, mentors, and a director, she also lives in Santa Fe, and we often spoke of Gene because they were good friends.

I, you know, in this time that we're living in, you know, a lot of people are going home --

COATES: Hmm.

DAVID: -- and certainly leaving us here. But, you know, Gene, that's -- it's meaningful to me because, you know, we had -- we had a few great conversations while we were working on this movie. And I just -- I just truly loved his work ethic.

COATES: Yeah.

DAVID: We talked about -- we talked about -- you know, we talked about work a lot. And he was -- you know, he was one of those guys, when I grow up, I want to be like him.

COATES: Well, what was it like to share the set with him?

DAVID: It was extraordinary. I mean, you know, one of the things that -- you know, another good friend of mine, John C. McGinley, we always talk about, you know, acting in a scene together and how important it is to throw the ball back. You know, when somebody throws the ball back at you. And, you know, so you're really in the game.

And Gene Hackman, you know, I learned an important lesson from him because here, you know, he's a huge star.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

DAVID: And the scene that we had together, you know, they have my close-up, they have his close-up. They did his close-up first. And, you know, he was monstrous. It was great. But the most important thing is, when it came time for my close-up, he did exactly the same thing he did on his close up. He didn't compromise or skim or anything. He threw the ball back at me the same way we threw it back and forth on the first time. And that was -- I was like, wow, because that doesn't happen every day (INAUDIBLE).

COATES: Hmm.

DAVID: You know?

COATES: And act as actor. I mean --

DAVID: Not everyone is that -- not everyone is that generous. But he was -- he was that kind of generous. And it shows. It makes a difference.

COATES: How do you think -- I mean, I know the Oscars are this weekend. They are expected to pay tribute to Hackman. He was nominated five times, he won twice. How do you think he'll be remembered as an actor?

DAVID: He was an actor's actor. I mean, he was really -- I mean, he -- like I said, he not only throws the ball back at you, but he is in the moment.

[23:15:04]

He's in the game. You know, he's not -- he's not trying to be liked if the character isn't likable. You know, he plays -- he plays the guy, whoever that is. You know, if he's -- if he's -- if he's nice, he's nice. If he has nice moments, he's a nice guy. And if he's not a nice guy, he's not a nice guy. And so, you get to see that kind of human being because they do exist. Not everybody is a nice guy. COATES: Uh-hmm.

DAVID: And he's not -- he was unafraid to show you that. And yet off -- you know, off-camera, he was the nicest man you could -- you could, you know, you want to meet.

COATES: You know, I love to hear that, about the way you can bring the authenticity of a role to the screen and be unapologetic about it. And of course, Keith, many could say the same about you as you've described him and the authenticity of your work as well. Can you tell me about some of those conversations or your fondest memory with Hackman?

DAVID: You know, that was one of them. And then there was --

(LAUGHTER)

There was another moment where he stood up for me in the most generous way. We were, you know, in the movie set here. Timing is everything. Time is money. You run out of time. So, we were running out of time to shoot a scene that we were doing. And everybody kept rushing, rushing, rushing. And, you know, he finally stood up for me. He says, listen, we're not going to rush this scene anymore because, you know, we got to give this guy a chance to do his work.

COATES: Wow.

DAVID: And I was like, wow! You know, I mean, that was -- it was generous. I mean, he went -- I think he would have done it for everybody. It wasn't just me. It happened to be me. And I just -- you know, I deeply appreciated that because not everybody stands up for you like that.

COATES: I knew I liked him. And I knew I liked you.

DAVID: That's a wonderful thing.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: And now we see even more of the reason why.

(LAUGHTER)

And you have to tell me -- look, I'm in journalism, I understand not everyone stands up for you. Thank you, Keith.

(LAUGHTER)

I appreciate it.

DAVID: You know, you know, what I'm saying, yeah.

COATES: I do, which is why I revere the escapism and the joyfulness that you bring in your art. And thank you for sharing a little bit more about Mr. Hackman, too. Keith David, thank you.

DAVID: Well, I will miss him. We will all miss him. Yeah.

COATES: We will. Up next, Attorney General Pam Bondi deals with her first MAGA crisis over this question: Where exactly are those supposedly sensational Jeffrey Epstein files that she promised? The whole thing now getting a little bit out of control because what was released today has the president's diehard supporters outraged.

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[23:20:00]

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COATES: So, for days, Attorney General Pam Bondi has been teasing the release of alleged secret documents the government has on powerful allies of disgraced convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. And today, the Trump administration released the so-called Epstein files, well, to a group of pro-Trump social media influencers.

But the roughly 200 pages of documents reportedly contain little new information, we're told. And now, Attorney General Bondi is accusing the FBI field office in New York of withholding thousands of pages of documents in that case. And she's demanding they are delivered to her by 8 a.m. tomorrow.

Here with me now, senior political correspondent for Puck, Tara Palmeri, and chief White House correspondent for Politico, Dasha Burns. Let me begin with you, Tara. You've actually spoken to one of the alleged victims of Epstein.

TARA PALMERI, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, PUCK: Now two, actually.

COATES: Now two.

PALMERI: Another one reached out to me, yeah.

COATES: What'd you learn?

PALMERI: They're really disappointed. I talked to Virginia Giuffre, who was the one who accused Prince Andrew of raping her. And, you know, she just said that these are basically her court documents made public. It's rehashing old material. It's flight logs that we've already seen before. It's, you know, the little black book. It's a lot of information that has already been in the public domain. I have two podcasts on Jeffrey Epstein. I've gone through these files. There is not much new in there.

She says that when she went to the FBI's offices with her lawyer, Stan Pottinger, that she saw videos, caches. She saw photos that she had to confirm were pictures of her, and they've never been released to the public. She thought that, at least, that would be released.

COATES: She wanted that to be released?

PALMERI: Yeah.

COATES: Why?

PALMERI: Because it's disappointing to them. They want this in the public domain. They want the Epstein story to be told. They feel like a lot of people are out there basically skirting justice, really powerful people who have been allowed to get away with spending time with a pedophile and molesting young women.

So yeah, she said, it's not good enough, we want the untouchables. But, you know, she admits it is phase one. But they felt -- another Epstein victim, Marijke Chartouni, she reached out to me and she said, nothing new was released, it was all a show, a circus.

And I think it really upsets them because they saw the theater that was going on, the binders that were handed out to these influencers, suggesting that this is all new information.

[23:24:58]

But anyone who knew anything about the Epstein trial and the case knew that this was not new information at all. And they were really hopeful. You know --

COATES: Hold that thought. I want to hear --

PALMERI: Virginia Roberts spoke to Elon Musk before the election. And he promised her over X that he would release the files. And she took him to that. And he hasn't done that. And she's really disappointed about that as well.

COATES: Why has the DOJ been so focused on this particular case above all?

DASHA BURNS, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: I mean, to Tara's point, the theater of it all. There are multiple stories like Epstein, like the JFK files, that the Trump base has really focused on. Their attention has been placed on those because there's been this sowing of distrust, sowing of distrust in the government, sowing of distrust in the institutions, the deep state idea that the government is hiding all of these materials.

And look, there certainly is more to the story and there may be more that's released. But there has been this fervor built up between Trump and his base because he's the guy that's going to go and show you the things that the government has been hiding from you. And this is one of those stories where they were looking for that.

COATES: Well, was it the thought that it would exonerate any association with Trump or that it would reveal those who were the so- called untouchables?

BURNS: Well, there are a lot of online theories about untouchables, particularly high up in the Democratic Party that people in MAGA world were hoping would be uncovered here. PALMERI: Trump was in one of the -- was in the little black book that was revealed today. He was in the files. They used their own followers as props today. They made them look like fools. And they are furious online. There is a revolt going on among the right. They're furious. They stood there in front of -- in the White House with these binders that had nothing in them that was new. They're props.

Laura Loomer, I know -- you know, she has been very closely associated with Trump. She's freaking out about this.

COATES: What is their specific problem?

PALMERI: Their problem is that you made this into some sort of dark, good pony show. Look at the pictures. And there's nothing in there. This is -- this is -- this is nothing. They want -- they want the goods.

COATES: But who they handed it to, in particular, the 15 influencers or so? I mean, what was behind that decision? Was it because they knew that it was not going to be at all thorough, anything different, and that this might have been a prop? Is that why?

BURNS: Well, two things. The story of this week in part has been the fight that the White House has been picking with the mainstream media, right?

COATES: Right.

BURNS: So, this was a show of, hey, we're going to include new people in this. I think that they did a disservice to some of those influencers because they made them think. They went out on their platforms and said, hey, we have this stuff that no one has seen. And that wasn't the case. And again, this is part of that narrative that we've been seeing all week long, but it didn't exactly play out to the favor of a lot of folks in MAGA world today.

COATES: How about Kash Patel? I mean, he has been asked to provide wherever the thousands or so documents would be. What happens there? Is that the goal then, to have him go to the New York office and try to get that, and that's where the documents are?

PALMERI: Yeah, I think this was some sort of like P.R. plan by Pam Bondi. She thought this could win her some social media clout, and it failed miserably. She has egg on her face. And now, she's blaming the New York SDNY, their office, for not giving them more documents. Like, that's your job. You know, you're supposed to know what you're doing.

Yeah, I mean, they got played. The right-wing media got played today, and I don't think that they're going to take this again from the Trump administration.

COATES: You agree?

BURNS: I think that they have claimed that they are furious in the past, and that has all been water under the bridge once they get something that they want. So, we'll see where this lands. COATES: Stay tuned, everyone. Tara, Dasha, both, thank you so much.

You know, we've been taking questions from you at home, and one we get a lot, what do people who voted for Trump think now? Well, tonight, we're going to get at least one answer from our next guest, a federal worker who supported Trump, voted for him, and now just lost her job. Her story, next.

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[23:30:00]

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COATES: Well, new tonight, a federal judge finding that DOGE's mass firing of thousands of federal probationary employees was likely unlawful, and now ordering the Office of Personnel Management to inform some of the affected agencies it had no authority to even make those cuts.

One of those probationary employees, 24-year-old Michigan native Ryleigh Cooper, was just let go by the U.S. Forest Service and shared her heartbreaking story with "The Washington Post."

You see, Ryleigh has dreamed of becoming a mother. After a doctor told her that IVF could be her only hope of having children, she turned to Trump, who had promised on the campaign trail to fully cover the procedure. It ended up being the very reason she cast her ballot for President Trump this past November.

Ryleigh Cooper joins me now. Ryleigh, welcome. Thank you for sharing your story. And I wonder, what was it like for you when you got the news that you were being let go?

RYLEIGH COOPER, FIRED U.S. FORESTRY EMPLOYEE WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP: It was really hard. I was on the phone with my best friend, Kaylee, at the time. We were just discussing her life and how things were going. I looked at my phone and I had gotten a text from our union rep. He told me that I was going to be fired the next day. I told her, I have to go. I'm getting fired tomorrow. And my heart just sank.

COATES: I'm so sorry this is happening, and the frustration you must be feeling and, perhaps, anxiety about what's next.

[23:34:57]

And, of course, we're hearing a lot about following the campaign and the elections, about the mandate, the mandate that people wanted to see, a streamlined government, that they want to be able to right-size it in some way and rid of waste and fraud. That was not the motivating reason you were voting for President Trump. Does that impact the way you see any of this?

COOPER: Yeah. It's hard from my perspective to approach the current administration with hope. You know, I've been dealing with infertility now for about a year. I've had multiple surgeries in my life. So, you know, going into the voting booth, the main thing on my mind was the same thing I'd been thinking about for the past 11 months, and it was, you know, I want to be a mom.

And women who have gone through that experience, that heartbreaking feeling of wanting something that you might never have, they understand how much of your time is taken up with those thoughts and how overwhelming and lonely it can feel.

COATES: Hmm.

COOPER: So, as someone who is more of a swing voter, you know, sometimes, that's what it comes down to, those single issues, because when you step into the voting booth, you know, you're thinking of what's important to you and like the issues that are resonating with you in that moment. And for me, in that moment, it took me a while, and I made decision that, looking back, I'm not proud of, but it's -- it's the reality of my situation now.

COATES: Ryleigh, do you now regret the way you voted for Trump?

COOPER: I do feel regret, and I've had a lot of tumultuous thoughts about that day in the election booth. You know, when you're voting on something that affects you so personally, you know, it's really easy to get tunnel vision, especially in a voting booth when you're staring at -- you have two options, right? I mean, it's not like you're given an endless amount of options --

COATES: Yeah.

COOPER: -- to achieve your goals. And so, afterwards, when I thought, maybe this is my chance, you know, I also had to come to terms with the fact that I was likely going to be a part of, you know, taking chances away from other groups of people, and that never sat well with me.

COATES: I understand, sadly, you have been getting a lot of hate mail, a lot of negative reaction for even speaking your mind about how you feel since being fired. Can you describe some of that?

COOPER: People online get very brave. You know, they can very easily say terrible things to you that they would never in a million years say to anyone's face. I've had people tell me that, you know, they hope that I never have a child and that I got exactly what I deserve.

And as much as all the terrible comments have been coming through, I've also received an immense amount of support, especially from women who have gone through IVF, who struggle with infertility. It's, unfortunately, a large group of us out there who deal with this. And I hope that more light comes to the issue of infertility. It's a terrible, lonely process. I'm really glad that some people have reached out with, you know, understanding, and they send me hope as well, which I appreciate.

COATES: Ryleigh Cooper, thank you.

Still ahead, DOGE around and find out. A judge now demanding that a member of Musk's team shows up to court and explain what's happening. And under oath, by the way. Plus, Zelenskyy, Trump, and the big name that everyone from Washington to Moscow are on the edge of their seats about.

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[23:40:00]

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COATES: Well, tonight, a federal judge ordering the Trump administration officials and at least one member of Elon Musk's team to give sworn testimony on DOGE's access to sensitive government data. The depositions will be no longer than eight hours in total and limited to three topics from earlier court filings. God, I love judges. This will be the first time a DOGE member has been required to give testimony under oath.

Tara Palmeri and Dasha Burns are back with me now. Dasha, I mean, federal agencies, unions, I mean, members of Congress, they've been all trying to get access to what's happening and how. Is this their chance to figure out exactly what DOGE is doing?

BURNS: Yeah, the black box is how people have been referring to what's going on with DOGE, because what are the actual numbers of the money he's saying he's cutting? Who is he talking to? Who even works for him? Remember, we had that moment this week about who the special administrator is and the White House refused to answer, and then we figured it out.

COATES: That may have been news to her, too. I just don't know yet.

BURNS: But Musk is starting to run up against some hard to dismantle guardrails in the government. Namely, you said you love judges, judges and lawyers, right? Eventually and maybe it's not catching up as quickly as some people would want it to, but there are those guardrails in place, and the courts is one of those.

[23:45:04]

But eventually, Congress and other branches of government are going to start to get involved in this. And to the point that you're -- the young woman that you interviewed made, this is what I'm starting to hear from voters. They voted on the economy, they voted on immigration, they voted on health care. DOGE was not the thing that they thought was going to be the majority of the conversation in the first critical 100 days. So, there's a lot of frustration from some voters. Why is this what's consuming my day today?

COATES: I just have got the actual premise, but the vehicle by which to do everything, it seems. But I also -- on that point -- I mean, the person who's running it supposedly, Elon Musk, and the idea of conflicts of interest, we're back on, Tara, because --

PALMERI: Yeah. COATES: -- Elon Musk was saying today that upgrades to FAA's air traffic control system, they're failing, and that SpaceX, which happens to be his company --

PALMERI: Right.

COATES: -- needs to take over Verizon's contract. And Verizon says that it is not running the current system. But that aside, how do these conflicts come into play in terms of how people are judging the motivation and intent of Elon Musk?

PALMERI: It's interesting to see what Elon Musk is interested in. You know what I'm saying?

COATES: Yeah.

PALMERI: Like he's interested in the FAA, things that fly. He's interested in NASA, a place where he has billions of dollars in contracts and rents a launch pad for only a dollar a year.

What is Elon Musk looking into right now? Where does he find cuts? It's in places where he can, you know, either find deregulation for himself, get rid of contracts that exist, perhaps replace them at some point with contracts with his own companies. He is just rife in conflicts of interest. Someone who has $800 billion, I think it is, in contracts is going to be conflicted with the government. There's no doubt about that.

COATES: Yeah. I often wonder what's in it for him. Is it purely the goodness of his heart or something much different? We'll have to see about that. President Trump and the U.K. prime minister though today, the other press conference, as you saw, there was a pretty big shift -- I'm using -- I'm being generous with that -- in Trump's tone with respect to President Zelenskyy. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I have a lot of respect for him. We've given him a lot of equipment and a lot of money. But they have fought very bravely, no matter how you figure it. They have really fought. Somebody has to use that equipment, and they have been very brave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: What's with the change in tone?

BURNS: Well, let's remember also earlier in the day, someone asked him about his comment calling Zelenskyy a dictator.

COATES: Right.

BURNS: He said, no, I can't believe I said that. Did I say that? Everyone in the White House press corps said, wait, wait, wait, what now? Look --

COATES: And was that -- was he serious or being sarcastic?

BURNS: It felt a little coy, but then you heard him today change his tone. And look, this is straight out of the Trump playbook. The entire press team keeps talking about art of the deal, art of the deal. They point to things like blasting Zelenskyy, and then pulling back.

And the kind of chaos that ensues the pearl clutching that you get in Europe and in the U.S. when he put something like that on Truth Social as a tactic, as just to sort of sow that chaos, upset the applecart, and then find his way into making a deal. Now, is that a productive approach? We're just going to have to see.

COATES: It reminds me back to his first administration, criticism actually of then President Obama, and he would say, I'm paraphrasing, you'd be a fool to lay all of your negotiation texts on the table. Do you think that he is trying to do that, that he's being coy with the media because he has no intention of revealing his true intentions?

PALMERI: I don't know. I think he follows the same playbook all the time. What I've heard from people is that this whole rare earth deal is not that great. It's a lot of like smoke and mirrors again. A lot of those minerals are in places that are currently being occupied by the Russians. It's in a lot of the eastern part of Ukraine. And a lot of --

COATES: Meaning that Ukraine could not even give them away if they tried?

PALMERI: Yeah. I mean, this is disputed territory right now. We're going to be mining it?

BURNS: And part of what I'm hearing from Trump sources is that this also potentially could give him cover for a presence there. Given a lot of the MAGA base, doesn't really understand why Trump is involved in Ukraine at all. They want him completely out America first, right? So, this could be a way to sell it to his base without ruffling too many feathers.

COATES: I'm curious about the meeting tomorrow with Zelenskyy and what tone that will strike. Thank you both, ladies. Always great to have you both on.

Well, now, it's time for a quick assignment for you watching at home. I want you to pick your top three Gene Hackman movies. I know it's hard, but get them ready, because after the break, you'll see if they stack up with Harry Enten's list. And, as always, he's got the numbers to back it up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HACKMAN: Have you ever been in Poughkeepsie? Huh? Have you ever been in Poughkeepsie?

UNKNOWN: Hey, man, come on, give me a break, man. I don't know what you're talking about.

HACKMAN: Hey, come on, come on. Say it. Let me hear you say it. Come on. Have you ever been to Poughkeepsie? You've been to Poughkeepsie, haven't you? I want to hear it! Come on!

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes, yes. I've been --

HACKMAN: You've been there, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: That's Gene Hackman in the 1971 film, "The French Connection." He won an Oscar for it. His character, New York detective Jimmy 'Popeye' Doyle, he didn't play by the rules. A lot of Hackman's roles actually broke the mold, which is why he was so great at his craft. He made us laugh and question our sanity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HACKMAN: Are you trying to steal my woman?

DANNY GLOVER, ACTOR: I beg your pardon?

HACKMAN: You heard me, Coltrane.

GLOVER: Coltrane?

[23:55:00]

What? Did you just call me Coltrane?

HACKMAN: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: He brought us the philosophical musings of a criminal mastermind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HACKMAN: Some people can read "War and Peace" and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: He taught us to be skeptical of the government. I mean, before that was cool.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILL SMITH, ACTOR: Who you working for?

HACKMAN: What are you talking about? I'm not working for them.

SMITH: Is this about me? Am I a target here? Do they know me?

HACKMAN: Who is they?

SMITH: Do they know me?

HACKMAN: I don't know what you're talking about!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But most of all, he gave us inspiration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HACKMAN: If you put your effort and concentration into playing to your potential, to be the best that you can be, I don't care what the scoreboard says at the end of the game, in my book, we're going to be winners. Okay?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Prompted in the slow clap. That's just a taste of what Hackman brought to the big screen and a small one at that. I mean, this man starred in more than 70 movies. But which one rises to the top? Well, CNN's Harry Enten is here to run us through the Hackman's greatest works.

Talk to us, Harry. There's a lot to choose from. I mean, "Hoosiers" is one of my absolute favorites, especially that pep talk scene now that my son is always in a locker room playing basketball. But you've looked at the critics and the audience favorites, and "Hoosiers" is -- it's not even in the top three?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: It's not on our list, though. Hearing that speech, I want to run through a wall and just play for him. My goodness gracious. Just hearing it back --

(LAUGHTER)

-- I want to get out on the hardwood and shoot some hoops, even though I'm terrible. But let's take a look at how the critics feel and how the moviegoers also felt. So, let's take a look at the Rotten Tomatoes scores, the top Gene Hackman films.

What's so interesting about this list is, I find movies that I never even knew that Gene Hackman starred in before. "Cisco Pike," he was a bad guy in that film, 100%. He starred with Kris Kristofferson. How about "I Never Sang for My Father?" He was a good guy in that, played a guy who had a very interesting relationship with his father. Again, 100%. And, of course, you played it in the intro, "The French Connection," 97% on Rotten Tomatoes.

What I will note is "The French Connection" will live on because his nickname in that film was "Popeye," and that's actually why we have Popeye's Chicken. It is named after his character in "The French Connection." So, Gene Hackman maybe gone, but he lives on.

But this is the Rotten Tomatoes, right? Let's talk about the box office, okay? Gene Hackman's top grossing films domestically, okay? "The Firm," $158 million. Of course, he was a bad guy in that with, of course, Tom Cruise being the good guy. Then "Superman." I mean, Lex Luthor, come on, baby, $138 million. Again, not such a good guy.

But then what I love about Gene Hackman, you know, we talk about some films, he was the good guy, some films, he was the bad guy, sometimes, he played a serious role, sometimes, he played a comedic role. "The Birdcage," of course, he was the senator in that film in which he kind of came around on gay rights. So, quite a fun little film there.

COATES: I can't believe that, like, you don't have on there "Unforgiven," which is, of course, one of my favorites as well. "Mississippi Burning." You got the -- I mean, I could go on and on. But "The Firm," I'm with you there. I love his character there. And, of course, it's one of the classic Tom Cruise's sprinting scenes. We all know what happens next.

So, I've got to ask you, Harry. No, you just can't resist telling me. What is your favorite Gene Hackman movie?

ENTEN: You know, we started with him being in a coach role. We'll end with him being in a coach role. My favorite Gene Hackman film, "The Replacements," only 41% by Rotten Tomatoes, but I got to take a listen to this film because it's inspiration again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HACKMAN: I put the game in your hands. You got scared.

KEANU REEVES, ACTOR: I read Blitz.

HACKMAN: Winners always want the ball when the game is on the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Hmm.

ENTEN: Winners always want the ball or a coach. That's why I want the ball. That's why I want to throw you the ball. Gene Hackman. Any closing thoughts? What do you think of my thought here?

COATES: It's a good one. I agree. And Rotten Tomatoes does not always match what I love. I got to tell you, I had the hardest time trying to figure out what's my favorite thing, my favorite monologue, favorite scene. And there are so many to choose from. I guess that's why you know that he was a great one, because every generation has one day love. And now, I'm going to share with my kids some of these movies as well. The right appropriate age ones.

ENTEN: Yes.

COATES: Harry Enten, thank you so much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

COATES: And hey, everyone, thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next. We leave you tonight with another iconic line from one Gene Hackman from Harry's favorite, "The Replacements."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HACKMAN: I look at you, and I see two men. The man you are, the man you ought to be. Someday, those two will meet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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