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Laura Coates Live
Cabinet Members Clash with Elon Musk; Gene Hackman's Final Days Revealed; Laura Coates Interviews Dr. Deborah Birx; LeBron James Rips Stephen A. Smith in Heated Confrontation. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired March 07, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
UNKNOWN: And then it went into (INAUDIBLE). How low can you go?
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(INAUDIBLE). It was very surprising, but it was beautifully executed.
UNKNOWN: What civil rights (INAUDIBLE) music factory crossover did you just do?
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ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You can catch the all-new episode tomorrow at 9 p.m. on CNN. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." We'll see you tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. with our conversation show "Table for Five." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: What happens when you put angry Cabinet members and Elon Musk in the same room? The fight house episode. Well, who knows? Inside the meeting that caused President Trump to knock Musk down a notch, who knows what really happened inside there? Plus, Gene Hackman's final days revealed. The medical examiner tonight clearing up all the mysteries except for one. And later, the Stephen A. Smith-LeBron James confrontation that has sparked a heated debate. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
So, you know what we learned this week? The true story of what happens when President Trump's Cabinet working together with Elon Musk stops being polite and starts getting real. Yes, the real-world White House edition.
It was all revealed in the Cabinet meeting blow up, one that made Trump take away Musk's cost cutting chainsaw and left the billionaire with the scalpel instead. It's from new reporting in "The New York Times" that spells out how Cabinet members just couldn't hold back their anger at Musk any longer, apparently.
Now, this Cabinet meeting yesterday was a lot different than the first one. It wasn't televised. Two, Musk showed up in a suit and tie. Quite the contrast from his tech support shirt from late February. Three, Maggie Haberman of "The New York Times" says Musk was on the defensive from the get-go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES (voice-over): At the top of the meeting, Musk pointed out that he owns or has three companies that have a market cap of tens of billions of dollars, and that his results speak for themselves. And that sort of set the tone.
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COATES: Boy, did it set the tone, especially when Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy got his say. Who better to challenge Musk than the one Cabinet member who was an actual real-world contestant?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HABERMAN (voice-over): Sean Duffy, the Transportation secretary, had a pretty contentious back and forth with Musk. He accused Musk of trying to fire air traffic controllers in the midst of what is a crisis for the FAA. Musk said that that was a lie and demanded names. And Duffy said there aren't names because I stopped this from happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: It got worse from there. Enter Secretary of State Marco Rubio. The Times reports that Rubio had been reportedly stewing for weeks ever since Musk shut down USAID. Now, during this meeting, Rubio was incensed as Elon Musk accused him of failing to slash his staff. But Rubio wouldn't have it. He accused Musk of not being truthful and sarcastically asked if Musk wanted him to rehire the 1,500 State Department officials who took buyouts just so he could make a show of firing them again. Musk pushed back. He told Rubio he's good on T.V., the implication being good on T.V. but not much else.
Hmm. Now, many are wondering what Trump was doing during this entire desktop (ph). Well, apparently, not much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HABERMAN (voice-over): The president said very little during this meeting. He mostly just watched the spectacle as if he were watching some kind of a sporting event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, Trump eventually piped up after the kerfuffle dragged on. He defended Rubio, saying he was doing a great job. Now, on the topic of sporting events, though, Trump was asked about all of this today while announcing a task force to oversee a very different kind of sporting event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Some details have come out about your Cabinet meeting with Elon Musk and some clashes, potentially, between Secretary Rubio and Secretary Duffy.
TRUMP: No clash. I was there. You're just a troublemaker. And you're not supposed to be asking that question because we're talking about the World Cup. Elon gets along great with Marco, and they're both doing a fantastic job. There is no clash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Other reporters or troublemakers, perhaps, tried to get more out of Trump, but he didn't give them much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Who has more authority? Elon Musk or your Cabinet secretaries?
TRUMP: Any other questions about the World Cup?
UNKNOWN: You said Musk will play an advisory role. DOGE will play --
TRUMP: We're talking about FIFA. Thank you.
UNKNOWN: You think he needs to be reined in, Mr. President?
[23:05:00]
TRUMP: Enough. Enough. It's FIFA. Is this a FIFA question?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: No, it wasn't. Not often you see the president so shy about giving an answer, whether it's true or not, which might tell you something about how this meeting actually went. But if you think Trump's relationship with his so-called first buddy is on ice, do not get ahead of your skis. Musk was seen in the Oval Office with Trump today, and he got on Marine One outside the White House right after the president.
Here to talk about another wild week in Washington, Scott Jennings, CNN senior political commentator, Keith Boykin, a Democratic strategist and former Clinton White House aide, and Tara Palmeri, senior political correspondent for Puck and host of the podcast, "Somebody's Gotta Win."
Tara, let me begin with you here because tempers, apparently, flaring at this explosive cabinet meeting. Is that what it takes to maybe move the president a confrontation, a kind of shouting match?
TARA PALMERI, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR PUCK, PODCAST HOST: I think Donald Trump enjoys this. In fact, he loves pitting people against each other. We saw that in the first administration, and we see that now in the second administration. He likes to sit back and watch people duke it out.
But it is interesting to see him pulling back some of Elon Musk's power, you know, saying he wants the sledgehammer to be a scalpel, that he wants him to be -- to really have more of a fine-tooth audit of these -- of these agencies.
And, you know, these are new Cabinet secretaries. These are new department heads. They are coming in, and they have staffs of thousands and thousands of people. They need support within their troops. They cannot just show up there and start mass -- like, start a massacre and expect to be able to do anything. They're taking on major leadership roles, and they feel like they're being undermined by Elon Musk. I've heard this for a while.
You know, Kash Patel went to Donald Trump after Elon Musk sent out this message saying, you know, reply with the five things you did last week and CC your -- CC your manager because he needs to build support with his agents in the field, in the FBI. You need -- you need to have support of the people who work for you. And he's just undermining these people.
COATES: I mean, the morale building essential, Scott, but "The New York Times" is reporting that, and I'm really curious about this, that Trump was watching the back and forth between, say, Musk and Rubio, kind of like a tennis match. Did it surprise you that he was willing to have this discussion happen between these two?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDNET TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: No, not at all. I mean, let me tell you a tale as old as time. Senior White House officials having adult conversations with members of the Cabinet. I mean, look, all these people have responsibility, and all of them have the confidence and the pleasure of the president. These Cabinet secretaries were hired by Donald Trump and confirmed by the Senate to do a job. And Elon Musk has been brought in to do a job. And I think Donald Trump pulled everybody together to say, hey, I need you all to work together. This push and pull between agencies and the White House is perfectly normal.
And then when you layer on top of it the fact that what the Trump administration is apparently trying to do, slightly shrink the size of government, that does add a little bit of strain and tension. But again, totally normal. And I think what Elon Musk has accomplished so far is starting a big conversation in this country about why the government is so large and why it costs so much money to operate.
As long as those Cabinet secretaries keep it in mind that the American people want this conversation to go on, I think it's going to be just fine. So, I have no concerns about this, and I'm not really surprised at all that the White House and the Cabinet secretaries are having adult conversations with each other.
COATES: I guess I take issue with the words "slightly" and "normal." Neither seem to be apropos these days. You're talking about how things go, Keith. But I'm going to ask you on this, Keith, on this point. Duffy calling out DOGE for trying to cut air traffic controllers which, as you know, are already in short supply. The fact that there is this, Scott is calling this normal interactions and discussions, perhaps, but the idea of trying to cut into the bone when there have been so many obvious statements about the haphazard nature of these cuts, what is your concern? KEITH BOYKIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE, AUTHOR: Well, you know, Laura, you're not supposed to be asking that question. You're only talking about FIFA today.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: Sorry.
BOYKIN: As Donald Trump would say. You know, I don't know why Scott thinks this is totally normal. We've never had an unelected billionaire, the richest man in the world, in Cabinet meetings with the president of the United States before. We've never had a guy who has $38 billion in government funding dictating to people who are actually Cabinet leaders, telling them how to spend their money, whom to cut in their own agencies and departments.
There's no wonder Marco Rubio and Sean Duffy and other members of the Cabinet are fighting back against this, because they feel like they have no agency over their own department. So, no, it's not normal.
And I think Elon Musk needs to spend more time worried about the rockets falling out of the sky, worried about the Tesla stock prices that plummeted 30% this year, and stop trying to (INAUDIBLE) the federal government, things he doesn't know anything about and things for which he actually has a conflict of interest.
[23:10:07]
It's no wonder the American people are upset about this, because they don't like the idea of not only of having this unelected billionaire running our government, but having him actually making self-dealing decisions while he's receiving government contract, and Trump is allowing this. This is not normal. This is outrageous. The American people are concerned about it and will continue to be concerned because of this.
COATES: Scott, what's your response?
PALMERI: And --
JENNINGS: Well, number one, the American people are giving Donald Trump a net positive job approval right now. Number two, according to reporting from our own Harry Enten at CNN, the American people also appreciate and want this effort by DOGE. So, the idea that there's some mass uprising about the concept of, hey, let's look in and find the waste fraud and abuse, is totally false.
And number three, it is completely normal for the president of the United States of any time, of any party, to hire advisors, to work with his government, to meet the president's objectives. One of the President's objectives is, hey, can we operate the government a little more efficiently, maybe make it a little smaller?
I mean, look what has happened in the last five years. In 2019, we spent about four and a half trillion. Today, we're spending about six and a half trillion. The government is much more expensive and much more expansive than it was just five years ago, and it's probably due in some regard to COVID, but it costs a lot of money to operate.
And the question all Republicans have is, does it have to be this big and does it have to cost this much money? It's a legitimate question, and I'm glad Trump and Elon and the Cabinet secretaries are talking about it.
COATES: Tara, Tara, I cut you off. What was your comment? I'll get right back to you, Keith.
PALMERI: Yeah, I was just going to say, Elon Musk -- yeah, Elon Musk is not the only unelected billionaire with kind of superseding powers over Cabinet members right now. You've got Steve Witkoff, Donald Trump's best friend, a billionaire, real estate developer, who seems to have an expansive portfolio from the Middle East now to solving the war in Ukraine. He also has, you know, done deals with Qatar, sold the Park Lane Hotel that he owned to Qatar and with the UAE.
And here's another one, you have Mark Burnett, you know, "The Apprentice" producer who's a special envoy. There's a whole other fiefdom in state of Trump's friends, very wealthy friends, who are also controlling Cabinet members.
So, I can kind of understand why Marco Rubio had this sort of reaction, because he has been in a bit of a power struggle already, having, you know, special envoys sort of in -- over him.
COATES: Keith?
BOYKIN: Yeah, I just want to say, in terms of what Scott was saying about waste, fraud, and abuse, I live here in Los Angeles in California, and just today, new reporting came out that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers wasted 2.5 billion gallons of water. So, Trump could stage a photo op long after the California wildfires had already been contained just so he could post it on his social media.
Donald Trump's cuts to USAID meant that half a billion dollars of food was spoiled on docks and warehouses because it was the abrupt cut -- abrupt cut didn't allow that food to get transferred to where it needed to go. Because of Donald Trump, they spent $200 million at Department of Homeland Security just to thank this guy, just to thank Donald Trump and his orders.
That's waste, fraud, and abuse, not to mention the $400 million going to Elon Musk for his Cybertruck. This is the waste, fraud, and abuse in America. It's not because of the federal workers doing their jobs. It's because Donald Trump is self-dealing.
COATES: Scott is rolling his eyes. Why?
JENNINGS: Can I answer that, Keith? Yeah, I just -- I just want to answer the criticisms. Number one, the cybertruck deal you mentioned was made under Joe Biden and canceled by Donald Trump. Number two, if I may comment on the Los Angeles situation --
BOYKIN: No, not --
JENNINGS: -- because this hasn't -- this hasn't been -- this hasn't been covered. I wrote about it for the "Los Angeles Times" this week, actually. The Trump administration and the state of California are working incredibly closely together. And the EPA, under Donald Trump, has completed the phase one cleanup in the wildfire zone in Los Angeles in a record 29 days. The estimates were -- it was going to take 18 months. But this is the cleanup of the hazardous material that you have to do in order to start rebuilding. Twenty-nine days.
So, all this idea that there's photo ops and waste and fraud and whatever and that Donald Trump was going to abandon California and L.A. --
BOYKIN: You didn't respond to the way I said about --
JENNINGS: -- The EPA under Donald Trump, 29 days. So, actually, there's quite a bit of confidence in government breaking out because Donald Trump is now the president.
BOYKIN: You did not respond to the 2.5 billion gallons of water that he wasted. You did not respond to the 2.5 billion gallons of water that he wasted before photo op.
JENNINGS: I don't think -- I don't think -- I don't think you're right about it. I don't think you're right about it. That's what I think.
COATES: Well --
BOYKIN: It's in your "Los Angeles Times," Scott.
COATES: Well, here, I want to say this, though --
BOYKIN: It's in your "Los Angeles Times." You know, come on.
COATES: I don't want to cut you off, Keith. But this point, Scott, can you reconcile what I think is the larger issue that Keith and Tara are raising, as many others have as well? Can you reconcile the idea of the premise of trying to stop waste, fraud, and abuse as a goal, which I think is universally lauded, and the means by which you do so?
[23:15:03]
Do you see a disconnect between the methodology and the ends trying to justify the means?
JENNINGS: It's universally lauded. But then, when you try to do it, it's universally opposed by every Democrat and every, you know, person who's got a specific, you know, piece of the pie in Washington, D.C.
COATES: Republicans had taken issue with how --
JENNINGS: I mean, everybody, everybody, everybody says, oh, I want do this. And then when it comes down to actually doing it, nobody actually wants to do it. So, they show up and say, no, no, we're going to actually do it. The American people want them to do it, they are finding things, and they need to do it. And the other thing they need to do, honestly, is build a presentation and go to Capitol Hill and talk to the Congress about what they're doing, get buy in from the Congress, and also tell the American people. That would be the -- the next evolution of this.
So, no, I don't see any disconnect here. The disconnect is all politicians say they want to do it. Only Donald Trump and Elon Musk are trying to do it, and that's why everybody in Washington is up in arms.
COATES: Oh, if only we gave "A" for efforts.
(LAUGHTER)
Trying to do it. By the way, CNN did report on the DOGE actually using that water in the way that Keith has reported. But, hey, what's your point, Keith?
BOYKIN: Laura, these are not Democrats who are saying. These are Trump's Cabinet officials who are arguing with Elon Musk in the Cabinet room. It's not Keith Boykin in the Cabinet room.
This is Marco Rubio and Sean Duffy and other officials in the Trump Cabinet who were saying, we don't like what you're doing, you're overdoing it. We have good people who are working for the federal government who don't need to be demonized, who need to be inspired to continue to do their work. And, yes, if there are cuts to be made, we can make them. We don't need some unelected outsider coming and telling us how to run our department.
Every American should be upset by this. Elon Musk was not on the ballot last year. In fact, they ran pretending that he was not -- was not even involved with this.
COATES: It was a pleasure. This conversation is not --
JENNINGS: Well, Joe Biden was on the ballot one time, and he never -- and I don't think he ever ran the county for one single day, Keith. So, you know --
COATES: I knew that was coming.
JENNINGS: -- if you're worried about unelected people running the country, let me -- let me introduce you to the Biden-Harris administration.
COATES: Well, allow me to reintroduce myself.
PALMERI: It just --
COATES: I'm the host. Thank you for joining, everyone.
(LAUGHTER)
Nice talking to you. Happy Friday. Up next, what Ronald Reagan once said about tariffs that's making the rounds in the C-Suite. Could it lead some business leaders to speak up against Trump? We'll ask Anthony Scaramucci that and much more next. And later, all the Gene Hackman conspiracy theories are debunked as the New Mexico medical examiner reveals what really happened to Hackman and his wife.
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COATES: Well, President Trump's economic agenda and his erratic tariff policy sent markets plummeting this week and left business leaders blind at the wheel. Today, the S&P rebounding slightly, but ended the week down 3.1% at the sharpest weekly decline since before the 2024 election. And the tariffs seesaw continues with Trump threatening reciprocal tariffs today on dairy and lumber from Canada. That's just one day after he delayed tariffs on the country until April.
The turmoil, frankly, has many C-Suites recalling these cautionary words from President Ronald Reagan back in 1987.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars. The result is more and more tariffs, higher and higher trade barriers, and less and less competition. So soon, because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidized inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying. Then the worst happens. Markets shrink and collapse, businesses and industries shut down, and millions of people lose their jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Joining us now is Anthony Scaramucci. He's a former White House communications director and author of the book "From Wall Street to the White House and Back." He's also the founder and managing partner for SkyBridge Capital.
Anthony, good to see you. I mean, you've seen this week markets plunging, the on again, off again tariffs, and you've got Trump with Russia and sympathizing with them. I mean, how are business leaders feeling right now?
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, AUTHOR, FOUNDER AND MANAGING PARTNER FOR SKYBRIDGE CAPITAL, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, I think it's the business leaders that are circulating the Ronald Reagan clip. I think --
COATES: Hmm.
SCARAMUCCI: -- people have to remember the history of this, though. During that presidency, Donald Trump took out a full-page ad in "The New York Times," 1987, decrying our trade policies. And, unfortunately, for Donald Trump, he's back 38 years. In the ensuing 38 years, Laura, we fully integrated our economy with Mexico and Canada and other parts of the world. And so, the tariffs, which probably sounded very good to him in 1987, didn't sound good to Ronald Reagan at all, are not suitable for the current global economy.
If just want to give one quick example. We have lobster farmers that send for processing their lobster to Canada. That's a 25% tariff. On the way back, it's another 25% tariff. And if Donald Trump escalates that, you could have a 75% increase in the price of lobster. There are so many examples like that.
Our refineries are set up for Alberta crude. It's sort of a heavier crude. And so, if they start shipping that away, we're going to have to retool our refineries at great capital cost.
So, I just wish somebody reasonable would get to the president and say, yes, your idea was possibly sound and debatable in 1987, but it's going to hurt everybody here in 2025.
COATES: I mean, that time machine is a powerful reminder, as are the markets on a daily basis this week. You know Trump. You worked in his first administration. How much is his back and forth a reaction to those markets as opposed to something else?
[23:25:01]
SCARAMUCCI: I would say markets plus business leadership. I think the executives of the automobile companies got to him. Lobbying people got to his staff. People are in his ear, telling him it's going cost $12,000 more to make an automobile here in the United States if you have this aluminum war going on with Canada. Remember, they're also selling electricity now into Southern California because of what happened with the brush fires.
You don't want a full-on trade war where there's bellicosity of rhetoric, and then there's aggressive trade action, the type of stuff that Donald Trump is capable of, but Ronald Reagan wasn't.
And so, again, we got to get somebody in there to just explain to the president the economy is completely different. You can't pull on a string of tariffs on one side and not to expect to unravel the stock market, unravel the GDP, and hurt lower and middle- income workers.
COATES: Well, who is that person that could give that insight? I mean --
SCARAMUCCI: I was hoping -- I was hoping it'd be Howard. I hope I was hoping it'd be Howard Lutnick. Howard knows. Scott Bessent -- Secretary Bassent knows. He wrote an article six, eight months ago. You could find it online, talking about the dangers of the tariffs. What happens is, you want to talk about a time machine, they go into the Trump hot tub, and they sit in the hot tub with them, you know, like the hot tub time machine. COATES: I got it.
SCARAMUCCI: They're passing cigars to each other and laughing. And they're sitting there agreeing with the president where they should be saying to him, no. You're back in 1987. It's possibly a good year for you. But Ronald Reagan is correct. And we made decision, whether you like it or not, to go forward with Reagan's strategy.
And these pieces, this global economy is fully integrated. You start this trade war, you're going to be very, very sorry. You're going to get crushed in the midterms. You're going to slip the economy into a recession. And so why not play nice to use a Donald Trump expression and see if you can get everybody to the table and calm down?
And by the way, he negotiated these deals, Laura. The USMCA was negotiated by Donald Trump. He put a tweet out six years ago saying it was the best trade deal that has ever been negotiated. Now, he's pulling the rug on that trade deal. Not helping us, creating a lot of unpredictability in the markets, and it's a bad setup for forward capital deployment for the nation's businesses, large and small.
COATES: We'll see who will be that voice of reason and if the markets will adjust in the short or long term.
SCARAMUCCI: It's not going to be me, Laura. I can tell you that. It's not going to be me.
COATES: I mean, not if you're quoting hot tub time machine to him. That might not be -- I mean, it's a hell of a movie, but I get your point. Anthony Scaramucci, thank you so much.
SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here.
COATES: Well, up next, the mystery and the sad one is solved. How did Gene Hackman die? How did his wife die? And how did they go unnoticed for as long as they did? All the answers, shocking and sad as they are, they're next.
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[23:30:00]
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COATES: A heartbreaking end to the story of Oscar-winning actor, Gene Hackman, and his wife, Betsy. Authorities in New Mexico confirming that Betsy Hackman likely died days before her husband. The state medical examiner says she contracted a rare disease called hantavirus pulmonary syndrome. It usually comes from rodents. A week later, Gene Hackman passed away. The medical examiner says he had heart disease and advanced Alzheimer's. Investigators believe Hackman hadn't eaten recently, and he was likely at home with his wife's body for several days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. HEATHER JARRELL, NEW MEXICO CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: I can tell you that he was in an advanced state of Alzheimer's and it's quite possible that he was not aware that she was deceased.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: What happened during that week remains a mystery. but authorities say there is no foul play.
With me now, Joseph Scott Morgan, a former medical examiner in Atlanta and distinguished scholar of applied forensics at Jacksonville State University. Professor, thank you for being here. I mean, these details, devastating to hear, and a lot of questions can be raised. Of course, you initially said their deaths didn't seem to make any sense. What do you make of what we've learned tonight?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, FORMER MEDICAL EXAMINER, DISTINGUISHED SCHOLAR OF APPLIED FORENSICS AT JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Thanks for having me back. Yeah, you know, I had contemplated this scenario. And there have been cases similar to this over the years where you have an individual that is suffering from dementia, and they have a caretaker at home, the caretaker passes on. And many times, it is catastrophic. You can have the patient himself that will eventually succumb. And sometimes, there have been cases where they've just been found wandering about.
I thought that maybe that was the case early on, and it's horrible to contemplate that. But it was -- you know, I appreciate their candor today at the presser because there were a lot of questions. I think probably roughly about 95% of all of the data that we needed was provided. We still don't know a lot about Ms. Arakawa's previous medical history because, yeah, she had been diagnosed with hantavirus at autopsy --
COATES: And what exactly is that, by the way? I mean, I have never heard of this before and a correlation to rodents. What is it? How does it spread?
[23:35:00]
SCOTT MORGAN: Yeah, it is correlated to rodents. And specifically, New Mexico is known, by some sources, as a hotbed for it. And it's particularly as it applies to what we refer to as deer mice, which they have quite the population there. And so, this particular virus can only be passed from the rodent to a human and it's not passed contrary to what people might think from rodent to dog. The upside is that what we understand is it can't go from human to human. So, it's not something that she would have passed along to Mr. Hackman.
But if she had any kind of underlying heart condition or anything like that, they didn't really talk about that. She would have been greatly compromised by this virus. It would have essentially pushed her over the edge because it initially presents as a flu and it can take up one to eight weeks to really present. And she would have had a fever initially, lethargy, this sort of thing, and then it gets into the lungs. This is where this pulmonary syndrome comes in. It's not necessarily a pneumonia, but her lungs would have been very heavy. It would have been a real struggle.
But, you know, what's amazing is that she's last known alive on the 11th. Remember, she used her card key to get into the neighborhood.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
SCOTT MORGAN: She had been seen at CBS. She had been seen at the farmers' market. She had even been to the pet store. But she was masked up while she was -- while she was out and about. And, of course, Mr. Hackman was probably at home by himself. The last recorded activity they have on the pacemaker, of course, is the 17th, you know. And so, we're looking at maybe five to six days, perhaps, that she had been down, and he may have been in that house by himself.
COATES: Hmm. To hear the stories and to think about what by all accounts was a great love story between the two, very heartbreaking.
SCOTT MORGAN: Yeah.
COATES: But the family certainly --
SCOTT MORGAN: Yes, it is.
COATES: I wish them peace to having some semblance of answers tonight. Joseph Scott Morgan, thank you so much.
SCOTT MORGAN: Thank you, ma'am.
COATES: Still ahead, should America be spending taxpayer dollars to study if you think it has already been researched at length before? Well, tonight, HHS says, yep. We will take you inside the new controversial order that has RFK Jr's critics pouncing. Plus, LeBron James, Stephen A. Smith, and the heated debate taking over the sports world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE PORTNOY, FOUNDER, BARSTOOL SPORTS: This is one of the most ridiculous controversies in the history of civilization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[23:40:00]
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COATES: A source telling CNN the Department of Health and Human Services has instructed the Centers for Disease Control to study vaccines and autism. That's despite strong evidence that vaccines do not cause autism and despite the pledge that HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. made in his confirmation hearing back in January.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): If the data is brought to you, and these studies that have been out there for quite some time have been peer reviewed, and it shows that these two vaccines are not associated with autism, will you ask, no, I need even more? Or will you say, no, just I see this, it stood the test of time, and I unequivocally and without qualification say that this does not cause autism?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HHS SECRETARY NOMINEE: Not only will I do that, but I will apologize for any statements that misled people otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Hmm. Well, joining me now, Dr. Deborah Birx. She is the former coronavirus response coordinator for the Trump White House. Dr. Birx, thank you for being here. I -- my initial question is, who would have made this kind of directive? Would it have come from the HHS secretary or something else?
DEBORAH BIRX, DOCTOR, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: I'm hoping what it means because remember, just a few days ago, he put out a really critical statement --
COATES: Yes.
BIRX: -- saying measles is very serious, please get vaccinated, protect yourself, protect your children, protect the community. I thought that was terrific. I think many people didn't expect that he would do that. I think it had a huge impact. It had a huge impact on those who were hesitant. Vaccine rates, they're doing great vaccination. And HHS is giving them funding to expand vaccination all through the counties that are most likely impacted. I'm hoping this means that he just wants a summary of all the work that has been done to date that has proven that there is not a link.
COATES: Are you being too optimistic in that summary?
BIRX: Because I'm optimistic after what he just put out about saying, please get vaccinated.
COATES: Let me ask. I mean, he's -- the CDC has already published multiple studies that show no link between autism and vaccines. And so, would a summary even be worth taxpayer dollars or is the point to try to dispel sort of finally, and once and for all, this notion?
BIRX: I'm hoping that's it's a second part that you just articulated so well. I'm really hoping that this means just as we put out this statement about measles and vaccination and importance of childhood vaccines.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
BIRX: I'm hoping that at this moment, he will be able to say. And I looked into the autism piece. I had our top public health agency summarize and do a meta-analysis of all the studies to date. And I'm convinced that there's not a link. But I'm also committed to parents that will find out what is associated with autism because it's really important with the rates that you're seeing. And every parent knows a child now that has autism in their group, in their school, and that's very different than 20 years ago.
[23:45:00]
I'm hoping they use this opportunity to try to figure out why has this rate of autism increased. It's not just increased diagnosis.
COATES: We had on the screen just now some of those rates that have been talked about. I mean, I looked at it. In autism, one in 36 children were shown to be on the spectrum in 2020. That's up from 150 back in 2000. There is a concern that people has as to explaining why and why specifically. So, what else would need to be studied to find out that why?
BIRX: I think the way you just stated that is the critical point because autism rates are increasing, but childhood vaccines, the ones we're using today, my children got. I'm not exactly young anymore, so, you know --
(LAUGHTER)
So, these vaccines --
COATES: Who among us, my friend?
BIRX: -- has been used for 30 or 40 years when the autism rates were pretty steady. And now, autism has increased. So, being able to show very clearly that there is not only not a causal relationship, but autism has been increasing despite the fact that our childhood vaccines have remained very consistent.
The key one for the virus is, do we have added components to the vaccines? We have to remember, that's really to protect them, their child particularly, like H flu and pneumovax. That's to decrease their rate of otitis media and try to decrease the issues that come with learning from having constant otitis media, and it has worked. So, you know, there's no link of those vaccines to autism.
And so, the fact that we've given these vaccines for decades, and we've just seen over the last couple of decades an increase, really, to me, is a red alert --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
BIRX: -- that we really have to look at this. And the same thing about cancer starting to increase in 30 to 40-year-olds. We have to figure this out so we can protect the American people.
COATES: Speaking of protection, I mean, this measles outbreak, I know you've been studying it. You've been working in a lot of rural communities as well, Dr. Birx. How concerned are you about this measles outbreak? Is it going to be confined to particular area or is there the potential that it could run rampant?
BIRX: Well, we always have measles introduced over the last many years, and our vaccination rates have been extraordinarily high.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
BIRX: They have been decreasing since COVID. It's our largest decline, has occurred in the last four years since COVID. And I think that's because there's confusion between how childhood vaccines work and create long-term herd immunity and the COVID vaccine that was a very short-term protection. I'm trying to really explain that to people. It's very, very different.
And I think that caused confusion. I think explaining it clearly, that childhood vaccines protect your child for years and years, maybe decades, is really critically important. So, you're protecting them for today and tomorrow. The outbreak is primarily the 222 cases that CDC just put up on their website today because they refresh it every Friday. So, they did it at noon, so I always like checking, checking. They have 222 cases, 198 are in Gaines County and the counties immediately next door.
COATES: Okay.
BIRX: And it looks like, in my eyes, that we plateaued, which is a very good sign. Now, I don't know how many other counties have been ceded due to local travel, and we'll be tracking that very closely. But this outbreak looks like it is finally at its peak in those counties.
Now, the question will be, as it has moved into New Mexico because they've gone from 10 cases to 30 cases just in the last week, they may just be starting, and I have to look at what their vaccination rates are. And so, there's still time. No matter where you live in The United States, please go back and check. I think a lot of children did miss. Remember, this is the children that COVID hit.
COATES: Right.
BIRX: And so, they turned one when COVID 2020. And so, they would just be in preschool and kindergarten now. And so, maybe some of them only got one shot. And you can see from the early data that's coming out from this particular outbreak that children who got one shot are at risk, so check.
COATES: Important. So important is to keep track of that for your children. Thank you so much, Dr. Birx.
BIRX: It's great being with you.
COATES: I certainly hope the plateau sustains.
BIRX: Absolutely.
COATES: Still ahead, we've got more on this courtside confrontation seen around the sports world. LeBron James seemingly chewing out Stephen A. Smith for talking about his son, Bronny. Was Stephen A. out of bounds or was LeBron? We got Cari Champion and Scott Jennings is back to handle this one as well. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Well, time to wrap up the week with hot topics lighting the internet a buzz. Scott Jennings is back along with CNN contributor and host of "The Cari Champion Show" on Prime Video, Cari Champion. Glad to have you both here. I'll begin with you, Cari, because you have undoubtedly seen the viral clip now of LeBron James confronting Stephen A. Smith at last night's game. Well, today, Stephen A. is revealing what that was all about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN A. SMITH, SPORTS RADIO HOST, SPORTS JOURNALIST: That was LeBron James coming up to me, unexpectedly, I might add, to confront me about making sure that I mind what I say about his son. Can't repeat the words because they ain't suited for FCC airwaves. That wasn't a basketball player confronting me. That was a parent. That was a father. He clearly took exception to some of the things that he heard me say, and he confronted me about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Stephen A. has been critical of Bronny James's performance to the NBA. Cari, he has repeatedly expressed that he -- quote -- "isn't ready." Who's right here?
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know what? If I'm honest with you, Laura, I think they're both right. I think that as a father, LeBron is, like, you can't talk about my son that way.
[23:54:57]
Outside of the fact that, yes, I know that he is a rookie in this business and, yes, I know that I have a lot to do with him being drafted, but he is still my son first and foremost before the title, before an NBA player.
On the other hand, Stephen A. is paid to do exactly that, which is why he received that huge contract. He is paid to make critiques. He is an analyst as we are. He calls it like he sees it. However, Stephen A. said that he has never said anything bad about Bronny. His main issue was about why would LeBron put his son in this position, and that also is inaccurate.
So, if I'm looking at -- outside looking in, they both have very, very, very legitimate reasons for why they feel as if they could say what they want to say. But LeBron is a father first. And so, I could empathize with the parents protecting their son. That's his first thing. My wife is looking at me crazy. People are talking to me, like, why is he -- why are you letting this man talk about your son that way?
COATES: Hmm.
CHAMPION: He went into protect mode. It's very fair.
COATES: Well, Scott, you have, I think, 37 kids. I'm only kidding. We joke around.
(LAUGHTER)
You have many kids, Scott. But I want to play for you what Steven A. had to say.
JENNINGS: I'm not --
COATES: Go ahead.
JENNINGS: I'm not at Elon level as yet.
JENNINGS: I knew that was coming. I knew it. I knew it.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: I was wondering if you were going to say it out of this. I let you in. That bait, that hook, it's in your cheek, my friend. Listen to what Steven A. had to say about Ronny, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: As a father, stop this, stop this. We all know that Bronny James is in the NBA because of his dad.
There are millions of kids out there starving to play in an NBA game that are more qualified than his stats show.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Scott, is it appropriate for LeBron to have confronted him?
JENNINGS: Yeah, look, LeBron is a huge baby. The only reason that that his son is in this position right now is because his dad demanded that he be put in the league. He's not ready to be in the league. And that's just a fact. I mean, anybody can watch the game and know that. That's number one.
Number two, Stephen A. Smith is well within his rights to criticize this. Number three, and I just want to make a political point, if Stephen A. Smith expects to be the president of the United States, which sounds like he does expect to be that someday, he's going to have to tighten up and toughen up a little bit.
When I heard him talk about this this morning, I heard someone who had been backed down a little bit, who had been sort of cowed a little bit by LeBron James. Brother, if you run for president or become the president, you're going to have a lot tougher conversation with lot more important people. So, toughen up and stand by your criticism. But I think in this case --
CHAMPION: I think --
JENNINGS: -- LeBron James, huge baby. Huge baby.
COATES: Cari, what's your thought?
CHAMPION: No, he is a father, and that was his reaction as a father. Scott, I'd like to see if any of your kids ever make it to any type of professional level of sport and they are being criticized, you would feel a way. That's just a fact. You can't deny that. Secondly, Stephen A. isn't a baby. I'm not defending Stephen A. But what he's saying is I have empathy. I understand. I have -- I'm a father of two girls. I understand what it feels like to want to protect your children. It wasn't about toughening up. It was like, okay, maybe let me take a pause.
And when you talk about qualified politically, Scott, this is not a time or a space for you to talk about people not being qualified for positions that they are given because they are friendly with people. You well -- you know, as I know, there are positions that are being handed out right now to people who are in this current administration who are not qualified. This is not --
COATES: Don't you guys -- I was going to say, don't -- I mean, maybe it's the mommy in me. But I think about Bronny as well. I mean, I know he's coming out as the father and Stephen A. has his own angle, of course, as a commentator and talking about it. But, I mean, if you're Bronny, you want to play. This is cloud under which you are playing.
CHAMPION: That's why you don't see a lot of that. You don't see many NBA players having sons. If you have a success -- like, Michael Jordan's son didn't play. I think of Magic Johnson's son. I think of these players who were -- who belong on Mount Rushmore of basketball. Their sons didn't play. It's very rare. What we see with Dell Curry and Steph Curry, Dell Curry wasn't as great as his son. So, you don't have this cloud under you. This has never been done before.
And I have no problem with nepotism because we see it all the time. So, it's okay. His son is in the G League. He's filling it out. It's okay. I'm okay with it in this instance.
COATES: Scott, are you okay with it? Scott's arms are crossed.
CHAMPION: Yeah.
JENNINGS: Look, I mean --
CHAMPION: Fine, Scott.
JENNINGS: -- I feel bad for the kid because -- I feel bad for the kid because his dad makes the Lakers put him in the league. He's clearly not ready for it. And then his dad is mad that everybody happened to notice? The kid has been put in a bad spot. But LeBron James, my gosh. Look around, brother. You're one of the -- you know, you're the third or fourth greatest NBA player of all time. You know he's not ready. You know he's not ready.
COATES: Well, goodness, I would love to see Scott Jennings try to take on any part of Bronny James. I'm -- now, I'm intrigued by what this would look like and see who's ready. But you know what? I'm not going to start --
[00:00:00]
JENNINGS: I'm not arguing. I'm not arguing. I'm a great basketball player. I'm a commentator just like everybody else.
COATES: Well, I'm a great basketball player. Don't speak for me what I can do on a court, Scott Jennings. We don't know what Laura Coates can do on a court. We don't know what five-three and a half looks like in shorts. Thank you very much.
CHAMPION: I know Laura plays point, and I know Laura is a great point guard. I'm pretty sure she could throw this out on the court any day.
(LAUGHTER)
Scott has zero defense. I'm pretty sure of it. Laura, you could take him on a one-on-one.
COATES: I'm just saying get me on the court, and I'm in trouble, because last week, I messed around and got triple double. Thanks for watching, everyone. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next. Be sure to tune in to the new season of "United States of Scandal" this Sunday at 9 p.m. Eastern.
