Return to Transcripts main page
Laura Coates Live
Laura Coates Reports On the Latest In The Federal Trial Of Sean "Diddy" Combs. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired May 13, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Cassie on the stand, the star witness, in her own words, for the first time, revealing it all, tonight on a special edition of "Laura Coates Live: Diddy on Trial."
Good evening and welcome. I'm Laura Coates right here in New York City tonight, where I saw Cassie Ventura take the stand against Sean "Diddy" Combs in a New York courtroom and deliver more than four hours of shocking testimony.
In just a moment, my team of legal experts and court empires (ph) will unpack everything we heard from the moment everyone was waiting for. The prosecution's star witness taking the stand.
But it was more than that. It was how Cassie took that stand. You could hear a pin drop when those doors opened, and a visibly pregnant Cassie Ventura walked past a man she had not seen in six and a half years. A man she says violently abused her for a decade. A man the prosecution said trafficked her. Well, she sat across from him, placed her overcoat behind her, turning her body slightly toward the jury, rubbing her pregnant belly throughout her testimony.
Diddy? Well, he was more fidgety than he was the day before. He was passing notes. He pushed himself away from the defense table and largely sat like that.
They never seemed to make eye contact with one another, not even after she was crying about having loved him once and planning and participating in these freak-off sex parties because she feared him and she wanted to make him happy, but feeling worthless, feeling disgusting because she didn't want to do it.
Now, with each moment, the testimony became more and more graphic. Her delivery, though, it never changed. It was, a matter of fact, steady, calm. At times, she was even critical of herself, walking us all through how a 10-album record deal came over a 10-year period of abuse and sexual humiliation.
And once you hear Cassie's testimony, you'll understand why the courtroom was so tense. She described the freak-offs in lurid detail. She testified about Diddy, who she called Sean, choreographing it all. And she explained a pattern of physical abuse that she could not escape.
Cassie told the jury about one freak-off at a hotel, where Diddy told her to get into an inflatable pool filled with warm baby oil. The prosecutor asked, what concerns did you have about not getting into the pool with baby oil? Cassie responded -- quote -- "That, amongst other things, just his temper. If that is something that he wanted, Sean wanted to happen, that's what was going to happen. There wasn't another way around it."
Now Cassie claims that Diddy controlled everything about her life and his staff helped him do it. She also says all aspects of the freak- offs went through Diddy for approval, from how he directed her to finding escorts, at times from Craigslist, to her appearance and what she wore, and even what happened during the encounters with the other men.
She testified -- quote -- "Every "freak-off" was, like, directed by Sean, like he knew specifically where he wanted everyone to be, the lighting and such." Cassie says the freak-offs made her feel disgusting, humiliated. She says she took all kinds of drugs to numb herself and disassociate.
And she testified Diddy frequently got physically abusive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
One of those times was during a 2016 incident at a California hotel. This video. Cassie says she was in a freak-off with Diddy and an escort just a couple of days before her first big movie premiere. She claims Diddy gave her a black eye. And all she could think about was getting out of there safely. So, she ran out while Diddy was in the shower, she says.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
The prosecutor asked -- quote -- "How many times had Sean thrown you to the ground like that before?" Cassie responded, "Too many to count. I don't know."
Cassie was also asked if there were occasions when she tried to fight back when he would hit her. She said, "No."
Cassie's testimony, it's far from over. She'll be back on that stand tomorrow. And her lawyer, though, says she's feeling good after today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): How do you feel after today?
DOUGLAS WIGDOR, ATTORNEY FOR CASSIE VENTURA: It's not for me to decide how we feel. It's up to the jury.
[23:05:00]
But we're very confident. UNKNOWN (voice-over): How's Cassie doing after it all? How -- how is she feeling? I know it must have been a lot, kind of, you know, recount all the experiences.
WIGDOR: Long day. I'm just super proud of her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Let's start off with CNN's Kara Scannell, who has been covering this case from the very beginning. And she was in the courtroom today, virtually a front row seat. Kara, tell me, how did the testimony come in? How were these freak-offs orchestrated?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Cassie kind of walked the jury through what her role was in the freak-offs and how she said that Combs had choreographed them. He was the director in charge.
And what she described was that these freak-offs lasted from 36 to 72 hours. The longest one, she said, lasted four days. And through that period, she said her role had evolved from initially Combs setting up the first one to then it becoming essentially her job. These freak- offs, she said, were occurring weekly.
And what she was responsible for was finding these escorts, using Craigslist, some of these other escort services, helping them travel to certain locations, from Miami to Ibiza to New York to L.A. to Las Vegas, and that she worked with Combs's business travel people in order to move people around, saying that they would project that they were potential employers in getting them to move.
But she said that he had everything to do with what she was wearing. She said she would buy outfits from sex shops and see which one he wanted her to wear.
And then inside the actual hotel rooms, their apartments where the freak-offs took place, she said that Combs was in charge of lighting. It began with candles. It then moved to studio lighting, that he was directing how they move from each action of the -- each sexual act in these freak-offs and even the amount of baby oil that they were wearing. She said that he wanted them to be glistening, and so he would often encourage them to put on more baby oil.
And then the drug use. Part of that testimony she said was that she had engaged and used numerous drugs, including ecstasy, GHB, ketamine, cocaine, marijuana. And the prosecution showed text messages where before a freak-off, she is texting Combs, asking, which colored pill do I take from your Louis Vuitton med bag, and he directed her which one to take.
COATES: It was astonishing to have all of these come in and the temper -- the -- the tempo with which she spoke. The jury in this room leaning in at times to hear more information. She also -- also described what she feared most about defying him.
SCANNELL: Right. I mean, she walked through what -- the range of these fears were from physical to just if she upset him, he would take away her phone, her car, limit her access to her apartment. Sometimes, that was done by him. Sometimes, through members of his staff, some of his security team.
She also was testifying that, you know, that -- these physical threats. One thing that stood out to me that she said was if she made the wrong face, the next thing I knew, I was getting hit in the face.
And she said he controlled almost every aspect of her life. He gave her essentially busy work, a to-do list, so he would know what she was doing at all times. If he couldn't reach her, he was incessantly texting her until someone went and checked to see where she was.
She also said that he controlled her appearance. Sometimes, he didn't like her hair. He wanted her to dress sexy. Sometimes, a tomboy. He wanted her nails to be white, she testified, especially during the freak-offs.
And one thing that she said she was concerned about was blackmail because a lot of these freak-offs were recorded, and the big concern was hers, that they could end up in the internet if somehow, she did something to upset him.
COATES: We're just a half day into this testimony, the direct. There's so much more. And the jury was shown that now infamous 2016 hotel surveillance video for now what? A fifth or more time today? Why do you think the prosecution continues to show this video, sometimes stopping it and showing parts?
SCANNELL: Yeah, they've been showing this at least five times, in my account, and going kind of moment by moment. And I think what they're trying to do here is they've charged Combs with sex trafficking by force and coercion, and part of that force is physical violence and the threat of physical violence.
I mean, this is why Combs's lawyer has called this probably the most important piece of evidence in this whole trial, because that is how the prosecution will want to show the jury that there was violence, that it was real. You can't distinguish this. They're not denying this happened.
What Combs's lawyers is trying to tell the jury, though, that this is not evidence of sex trafficking, it's evidence of domestic violence, which he owns, but they're saying it's a very different thing than what he has been charged with.
COATES: They called it overwhelming evidence of that, that they know there's more to it. And we got to unpack all these. Kara, come with me because I want to continue to talk about all these, and all we're going to break down. We've got a dynamite panel of people right now to give us all of their thoughts, their expertise. I'm talking about my fellow lawyers.
Misty Marris is here. Stacy Schneider and Jeremy Saland also here to break all of this down. Okay, this was quite a day in court, as I hoist myself up to this table to talk to you about this, because I'm telling you, it was heavy, and moments very, very dark. [23:10:02]
I want to start with you, Stacy, because her testimony, did it prove there was a criminal enterprise? That's they got approved for RICO.
STACY SCHNEIDER, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR, U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT: Right. So, I look at her testimony today as domestic violence on steroids. Um, the prosecution is trying to show that there was coercion and that he used his business enterprise to engage in coercing women to fulfill his sexual desires.
I think it's a little bit of a stretch. I understand there are all kinds of criminal activity activities being alleged here. But the racketeering and the sex trafficking charges, I'm not sure that Cassie made that out today.
COATES: It's only day two, though. Right? I mean --
SCHNEIDER: Now, there maybe more. It's only day two.
COATES: And you're looking and trying to see. It's day two.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
COATES: So, the jury -- and this is, by the way, an eight to 10-week trial.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
COATES: They have a lot to show. But they called her almost first. She's getting ready to give birth probably in a matter of weeks.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yeah, absolutely. Well, she's the most critical witness. And there's a reason for that because, yes, the case is not made yet, but she has laid the foundation for establishing those charges for the prosecution.
And here's how. With respect to sex trafficking, we heard about the power dynamic. The key was always in control. We heard about stomping, kicking, hitting, all of these physical acts to get her to comply. Psychological abuse, blackmail. That's where we get our force, fraud, and coercion.
And as far as RICO, she kind of put the "O," the organization in RICO, by naming individuals who were in his sphere and were doing his bidding and talking about what would be the predicate underlying crimes. Drugs, guns, prostitution.
COATES: But more than that, they showed the pictures. They -- they actually tried to put a face to what they were calling the enterprise. Remember, in the opening statements, they were saying it was the inner circle, the bodyguards, trusted assistants. They actually went through and showed pictures to the jury today of various bodyguards trying, I guess, we were talking about to establish the enterprise.
But then there was this moment, Jeremy, where they -- she actually said on the stand, eventually, it became a job for me. She's talking about planning these freak-offs. Eventually, it became a job for me to where I knew that it -- if that is something that he wanted to do, I had the contacts to set it up and get a hotel room and all of that. And sometimes, she'd even give deposits on her own personal credit card. So, is she part of the enterprise or the victim of it?
JEREMY SALAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the defense is going to try to make her out to be part of this. She's not a victim. She's there willfully. She's getting these 10 contracts or 10 record deals. This is what she's doing.
And the prosecution in return is going to say, you know, you can white knuckle someone's neck with control, you can white knuckle their soul with control, and that's the control he had over her at all times. It was emotional. It was physical.
But not only that, you're not going to just rely on her because you're going to hear at some point, because we're just on day two, you're going to hear from an expert, who's going to explain why, in this particular case, a woman would come back.
And this is why you have things like domestic violence law, that even if someone says no, I don't want to proceed, there could be a reason why they don't, and it's that control and manipulation.
But to your point, does that make out an entire organization, like, criminal enterprise structured where you share that common goal and everyone has a role? It leads up to that pinnacle of Sean Combs.
COATES: Go ahead.
SCHNEIDER: I was going to say, there's a lot that came out today that helped the defense in a very strange way. She said that this started out in beginning of the relationship. She loved him.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
SCHNEIDER: That the freak-offs were the only time she had to actually be with him. The prosecutor asked her, did you enjoy any of this? After she described being humiliated and -- and disgusted, she said, well, it was the only time I got to be with him. I loved him.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: She even said happy. She even said one-on-one, which, of course, the irony was there always involved a third partner.
MARRIS: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: They did. But -- but she described this as he came to her, Sean Combs, and said, I'm interested in voyeurism. I want to have another man in the relationship. She described Sean Combs as, I am one of his girlfriends, I was jealous when he was with other women.
And that goes very far to meet the defense's opening statement, which said domestic violence is not sex trafficking -- MARRIS: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: -- domestic violence is not racketeering. And if the defense can use these pieces of her testimony to show that this was a relationship and the coercion -- although she has testified to coercion and it is part of the government's case. But was the business enterprise engaged in this coercion or was there --
COATES: That's the point.
SCHNEIDER: -- the relationship?
COATES: Yeah. I mean, Kara, I want you to speak to what you saw in the courtroom because when they showed pictures of people who were comprised of the so-called enterprise and talking about this -- I mean, she was very familiar.
She was fluent in names of bodyguards and others who would remove property. She even talked about how they were on-ready call to replenish and restore new linens, more candles, Glade and diptyque of the variety, talking about more lubricants and baby oil, that they stood ready to always give drugs and everything else.
Is that enough for them to -- when they were talking about that, did the jurors react to that moment and think, hmm?
SCANNELL: I mean, when she was giving a lot of her testimony, it was the typical tennis match.
[23:15:00]
The jurors are watching her. They're watching the prosecutor going back and forth. There was a point where I think the jurors were definitely still paying attention.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
SCANNELL: But, you know, there was -- part of this testimony was getting a bit repetitive. And even the judge at a sidebar outside of the presence of the jury had said he heard about 10 questions about baby oil and, like, maybe it was time to move on.
COATES: So, like, 12 minutes it went on.
SCANNELL: Yeah.
SALAND: It's going to get mundane pretty quickly.
SCANNELL: You learned a lot.
COATES: Well, then -- well, talk to me about that, though, because is there a point in time when it becomes for the jury overkill?
MARRIS: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that -- that narrative about the baby oil and the size of it and the temperature of it, we didn't really need to go that deep. But what they did need to establish from the prosecutor's perspective is how these freak-offs are orchestrated.
COATES: Uh-hmm
MARRIS: And that's why you heard Cassie in her testimony say, well, yes. She was part of the planning. She's on Craigslist. She's reaching out for the escorts to be a part of it. But he always maintained the control and the direction, and that was all up to him. So, those were some of the points with Stacy.
I think you made a great point. The defense has a lot of area to really, really attack here. And I think some of that vulnerability comes from her testimony where she says, well, I -- I wanted to be with him. If I wasn't there, I thought somebody else might be there. So --
COATES: Well, hold on --
MARRIS: -- those are avenues for the defense to get in there on cross.
COATES: Is that enough to fatally undermine the prosecution's -- I mean, Jeremy, I -- we -- we've been prosecutors. Right? And so, I do not shop liver. But that does make a good point about what the defense can talk about. But they still got a lot in today about key players who were facilitating paid sex.
SALAND: Absolutely. And as salacious as some of this testimony is and -- and will be, they have to lay that foundation, and -- and they're doing it through a pregnant woman, who everyone can sympathize and empathize with. And you have to start that way. And practically speaking, you have to for her because she's going to have a child soon. But you have to start that way.
But let's not also say that the government may not be overcharging because they may very well be doing that. And you like to believe it's not true. But sometimes, the government and the state overcharges because they can force or get that lesser plea.
And that trafficking maybe of women or bringing them across state lines, the events were happening in Ibiza, they were happening in Las Vegas, and all these different things were happening, but you have to start with something, maybe it isn't, and we discussed this yesterday, because it gets all that umbrella of information and it gets all the kitchen sink in for that -- for that case in chief.
SCHNEIDER: The kitchen sink, though. So, the kitchen sink --
SALAND: But --
SCHNEIDER: -- not killing, though, after a while.
SALAND: It becomes overkill, you start to lose the jury, and they say, well, maybe this is not what you're saying it is. It's something, but not this.
COATES: You know what, though?
SCHNEIDER: Can I just --
COATES: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Sorry.
COATES: Quick.
SCHNEIDER: But one point that you made in the intro, in the beginning is we're two days into testimony, and this jury has seen that assault video five times already? I mean, by the time you start playing it and playing it and playing it, it's sort of -- look, it's a -- it's a violent, horrible video. But eventually, what are they trying to achieve by overplaying the video?
And I would say in my closing statement to the jury, as a defense lawyer, why did they show you that video five times? Maybe there are going to be five more times throughout the course of the trial because they're distracting you from the fact that what they charged him with is not really proven by the evidence. They just want to make him --
COATES: Well --
SALAND: You may not like him --
COATES: Let me tell you something. I -- we have a lot more. Everyone, stand by. There's a lot more to unpack. I got to tell you, the prosecution, they could have a very sound strategy in playing that video. We're going to unpack further. Why? I don't know that the audience of the jurors is yet in the oversaturation. This is all new to them.
The big question, of course, is the prosecution going to land a conviction? Well, my next guest was one of the prosecutors who locked up R. Kelly. What does she think will happen based on her expertise and experience?
Plus, sudden drama around Cassie's husband. The testimony he's not allowed to hear as we learned that Diddy's team was thinking about calling him to testify.
And later, our eyes in court, the sketch artist who noticed everything. Something very, very different about Diddy today as Cassie was testifying. My conversation with her all ahead on this special edition of "Laura Coates Live: Diddy on Trial."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: All eyes on Cassie Ventura as the prosecution's star witness delivers harrowing accounts of arguments with Diddy that would often end in physical abuse. Quote -- "He would mash me in my head, knock me over, drag me, kick me, stop me in the head, if I was down." Has the prosecution met their burden of proof yet? Well, my next guest has first-hand experience at painting a searing picture of a world- famous musician who used his clout to commit unspeakable sex crimes and was convicted.
Maria Cruz Melendez was one of the prosecutors who brought disgraced R&B singer R. Kelly to justice in his 2021 sex trafficking and racketeering case right here in New York. And you know what? I have the honor of her joining me now.
I am desperate to figure out if you see any parallels between the prosecution of R. Kelly, the racketeering offense, and what you're hearing now. This is no cakewalk to prove a RICO charge. What do you see?
MARIA CRUZ MELENDEZ, PROSECUTED R. KELLY FOR RACKETEERING: Yeah. So, I think from a high level, you're -- you definitely see parallels. You obviously have a high-profile defendant who, over the course of many years, was seen to use his power, his clout, and the resources around him to engage in alleged criminal behavior. Right?
The -- I -- there are differences, though. We -- in the R. Kelly trial, many of our victims were minors when they met R. Kelly.
[23:25:02]
And so, there's this certain level of control that you have over an individual when they're young and impressionable. Cassie Ventura, of course, in the Combs case, was also pretty young when she met Combs.
COATES: Chronologically not a minor, but yet impressionable was almost how she described herself. She said she was actually inexperienced, naive. Is that something that the jurors ought to take into consideration to evaluate that power dynamic?
CRUZ MELENDEZ: I think they should take it into consideration. But at the end of the day, the -- the government has charged the case in a very particular way.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: And so, when it comes to the sex trafficking, when it comes to the -- the prostitution, Mann Act charges, they're -- they're charged within a particular period.
COATES: Mann Act, meaning taking somebody across state lines for nonconsensual sex.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: Or criminals.
COATES: Criminals.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: Sex. Right. And so, at the end of the day, I think that the jury is going to be tasked with the idea of understanding whether or not someone in Cassie Ventura's position, someone who's not a minor, someone who is successful in their career, someone who lives alone -- who lives on their own for much of the time and has access to financial security --
COATES: Yeah.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: -- to some degree, whether or not that person can be coercively controlled to the point where it meets the government's burden.
COATES: You know, there was a moment that sort of surprised people today. And it was actually -- the seed was planted yesterday by defense counsel who said, your honor, we'd like to have all witnesses in place in the witness stand chair before the jurors come in. Didn't know what they were talking about.
Today, we're learning -- we're learning from a scoop from our own (INAUDIBLE) that, in fact, they were hoping that a very visibly pregnant Cassie would have to be in the stand before the jury came in. That wasn't what happened. But also, that they wanted to have the husband of Cassie not be allowed in the courtroom. They might call him. Is that strategic to try to remove someone's support system in that way?
CRUZ MELENDEZ: I -- you know, I don't know that it's necessarily strategic. I could see using it as a strategy. But it's not unusual. If the defense is legitimately thinking about calling her husband --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: -- then it's not unusual in cases. And usually, it's mandated that a witness is -- should not sit in until they have, in fact, testified. I think the what the court weighed here was the defense is only asking about a particular issue, and so her husband --
COATES: Yeah.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: -- would not be allowed to be there during that particular issue.
COATES: What about the defense's claim? This is not criminal. It's kinky.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: You know, I think it's -- it's the only defense that you can really go with now, particularly because we have the video evidence. Right?
COATES: Hmm.
CRUZ MELENDEZ: So, ultimately, they can't argue that the violence didn't happen in any respect at all. And so, what they have to do is they have to divorce the violence from the idea of the -- the racketeering activity that has been alleged.
COATES: Maria, we -- to date, it's only day two, and she started in the stand today, we have heard from Cassie, who has not definitively said that she either withheld consent or said no to participating in these freak-offs. Is the idea that she was subordinate and felt submissive to him enough for the government to prove their case? CRUZ MELENDEZ: It -- it can be. I mean, the government has a huge burden. They have a number of things that they have to prove. But in terms of the element of whether or not there is force to engage in either the -- the forced labor issues and also the -- the sex trafficking issues, if the jury is compelled and convinced that he overcame her will, I -- I think it could be enough at the end of the day.
But I think it's going to rely heavily on explanation by the expert. We anticipate that the government is going to call an expert -- expert witness who can talk about coercive control and what individuals who are alleged of committing crimes like Sean Combs, the -- the types of ways in which they can assert coercive control over.
COATES: Very quickly, the government has been criticized for overcharging. You also were criticized for using RICO. What do you say?
CRUZ MELENDEZ: I think at the end of the day, we charge RICO because we thought it was appropriate in that situation. They often said it was just because there was one defendant. But in my career, even putting aside R. Kelly, I've tried and I've convicted individuals who were tried by themselves on a RICO indictment.
COATES: An expert indeed. Maria Cruz Melendez, thank you so much for joining.
Still ahead, everyone, Diddy was calm yesterday. But today, a little bit of a different story, says the courtroom sketch artist who will share her view with me tonight.
Plus, who was Cassie Ventura before she became the face of Diddy's alleged enterprise of abuse? Insight tonight from one of Diddy's former business partners.
And later, the legal team is back with me to break down what cross examination might look like for Cassie that could begin as early as tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: You've been hearing a lot about Diddy's orbit and how at the height of his fame, everyone wanted to be a part of it.
Cassie spoke to this testimony today when she was discussing her experience with Diddy in the hotel rooms. She was asked -- quote -- "Why did you want to be around Sean?" Her response, "I wanted to be around Sean for the same reasons as like everyone else at the time. It's just this exciting, entertaining, fun guy. I had also happened to have my career in his hands."
My next guest is a former longtime business associate of Diddy who knows what that orbit was like having worked with him for years. He helped launched Diddy's cable channel, Revolt TV.
[23:35:00]
Rahman Dukes joins me now. He's also the CEO of Polaris Universe. You know, you knew him since you were what? Eighteen years old.
RAHMAN DUKES, FORMER LONGTIME SEAN COMBS ASSOCIATE: Yeah.
COATES: You know him well.
DUKES: Yeah. You know, my first impression -- you know, my first day in the music business, you know, I happened to meet him. He was introduced in the victory video with Busta Rhymes and --
COATES: Wow.
DUKES: You know, that was something that he literally remembered. You know, about a couple years down the line, we had the opportunity to work a little bit closer together. And, you know, he -- he has definitely supported, you know, my -- my -- my personal career, and I've seen him support other people's important career.
COATES: One person whose career he was supporting because she was signed to a 10-album deal, Cassie Ventura.
DUKES: Correct.
COATES: Talk to me about that dynamic. What was she like in your observation or interaction with him?
DUKES: Cassie, you know, she's a really nice young lady. You know, really cool. You know, she's one of those people that is -- is really easy to get along with. You know, really nice-looking young lady. But she's also, like, you know, could be one of the guys as well. You know, she's a real good vibe.
And she happened to be talented. She's really, really talented. You know, she started with Ryan Leslie. They had a huge hit, you know, "Me and You," which was at the beginning of "My Space." "My Space" was like the -- the -- the birthplace of social media.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DUKES: You know, that kind of got Puff's attention. Those two collaborated on her debut album, you know, through Atlantic Records. And then from there, Puff kind of took the reins.
And, you know, one thing about Puff, you know, on the music side, you know, he -- he -- he's a -- he's the biggest guy to notify a hit, you know. So, he knew he had something on his hands, you know.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DUKES: And that's just something that they just continue to work on, you know, over the course of the years. COATES: They talked about taking the reins, changing management at one point in time, and also that he really was in control of her career. Had to do kind of a busy list every day, busy work. She recorded albums all the time and nothing ever got released before. An actual mixtape.
We also heard an emotional and at times disturbing testimony from Cassie today, as you well know.
DUKES: Uh-huh.
COATES: She's alleging physical violence and assault. She talked about being dragged, kicked. We also saw this video. Did you ever witness violence at the hands of Diddy or Puff, as you're calling him, towards Cassie or anyone else?
DUKES: Absolutely not. You know, at -- at -- at no times, you know, was any of that energy around the business. You know, around the workplace specifically, you know.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DUKES: And I work -- I -- I -- you know, I work with him in different capacities, you know. And I know other people as well who worked with him longer than me, you know. And that's something that's kind of been divided, you know. We look at it as that being like this is this man's personal life, you know, and which we treat that, you know, as far as with protection and respect for everyone.
COATES: Oh, you compartment -- so, you essentially -- you say business was one thing, but his sex life totally different. His relationship is different for you.
DUKES: Correct. But --
COATES: But you're also -- I don't want to -- yeah. But you're also -- but you're a man. Did you see that dynamic at play with women?
DUKES: Did I see which?
COATES: That dynamic at play with women, controlling or otherwise?
DUKES: No. Not necessarily control. You know, he's a really passionate guy, you know. And I think that, you know, the -- the -- the recipe is speaking for itself, you know. You're talking about, like, big successful, you know, collaborations, etcetera. He put his fingerprints on.
But, you know, I think he -- you know, he loved Cassie. I'm pretty sure she loved him, too. You know, we're talking about a relationship, you know, at the same time. Like, we -- we're getting a peek inside this man's personal life, you know, which so happens to be an artist that he signed to.
Now, a lot of people might say, you know, that's something where you don't mix business with pleasure. COATES: Uh-hmm.
DUKES: But, you know, she's a really successful talent, you know, and they happen to have a liking for each other.
COATES: Speaking of successful talented people, there's a big number of people in the industry who are leaning in, paying attention. You don't hear a lot from people defending him publicly. Why?
DUKES: You know, the thing -- you know, I -- I think that the -- it comes back to what I was saying, as far as having that respect and playing your own space, you know. This has been a conversation, you know, as far I've been doing journalism for about 30 years --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DUKES: -- specifically within the urban space. This is something that we've never seen transpired to this magnitude ever before. And I think that the first initial reaction is that it has kind of caught everyone off guard. So, people are being careful how they respond.
Because one of the main concerns is if this can happen to him, this can happen to other people, too. Because in some people's eyes, they look at him -- when you put the cards on the table and you're talking about this is what he's charged for, but this is where the conversation is, these are two different lanes.
You know, somebody say, hey, I could easily fall into a similar situation, so I'm going to sit back and be quiet, you know, for the time being until I see how it goes. Now, in the beginning, you know, it looked like there was a lot of energy, like, you know, really going against him. I'm not saying that that shifted at all, you know.
[23:40:00]
And much respect to Cassie, you know, she deserves her justice for whatever it is. But, you know, more recently, you're talking about a year later where we've seen, like, all these people, you know, all these lawsuits, and then you got Jay (ph) getting involved and stuff like that.
COATES: Hmm.
DUKES: Now, people are -- they're more closely examining the situation and they're like, well, what is he in court for? Why is he in jail? All these things that's going on out here. Like, why is -- why is he being in jail?
And, you know, again, if you know Cassie, and I say this again with all due respect, like, the visual is in my mind. They -- they got along. You didn't see any issues. You know what I'm saying?
COATES: Maybe more skeptical now than silent. We'll see about why. Thank you so much. Really intrigued me to hear that conversation.
DUKES: Thank you. COATES: Rahman Dukes, everyone. Cassie's relationship with Diddy, it lasted more than a decade. So, how did they react when they came face- to-face in court for the first time in six years? My next guest says Diddy was fidgety during Cassie's testimony. I'll talk with the sketch artist about what we saw in that courtroom next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: All right, for all of you watching at home, you're probably wondering what's it really like inside that courtroom. What about the little thing? What would you notice out there? The stuff you'd only catch by actually being there. Like, how Diddy was behaving during Cassie's testimony or how she sounded in those tense emotional moments.
Well, let me take you inside. Because earlier today, I caught up with Christine Cornell, the courtroom sketch artist behind the images you're seeing right now, the very one who had her eyes trained on all the action. Here's our conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COATES: Christine, being inside that courtroom today on a day when Cassie Ventura was testifying, tell me, what did you see? How was Diddy's demeanor and reaction today? Was it any different?
CHRISTINE CORNELL, COURTROOM SKETCH ARTIST: I think so. I think he was -- he was -- you could see that he had been personally involved with this person, and that it was -- it was rather rubbing him the wrong way that she was disclaiming absolutely anything and everything to do with the -- with the way these parties were arranged.
COATES: How could you tell he was rubbing wrong -- rubbing the wrong way?
CORNELL: He was -- he was -- he was drumming his hand against his leg, which was a kind of an anxious thing.
COATES: I saw him almost rocking at different points in time. He scooted back from the table. Did you notice that?
CORNELL: He was -- he was fidgety.
COATES: Yes.
CORNELL: Yeah. And he was also -- he was in a bit of a pinch, frankly, because they did bring it up at the end. They brought up an email, and he says, I know you don't want to do this. Right? About the parties. He says, but -- but I'm not letting you -- you know, whatever -- however he put it, it's like he's not letting her reign him in. You know? I mean, this is his thing. COATES: Did you notice, with Cassie Ventura and Diddy in the same
room, we're told yesterday was the first time in six years they've had any communication. And, of course, the settlement. Did you notice any eye contact or exchange glances? Was he looking at her throughout this testimony?
CORNELL: I think he was looking at her steadily, and I don't think she looked at him once.
COATES: Hmm.
CORNELL: And even when she walked by me, because I'm sitting right on the aisle, I could see that she -- she was almost doing it like, you know, I have to walk through here. You know? She was on a mission. And she wasn't there to have any communication with anybody. In fact, she just as soon not be here, frankly.
COATES: I know you're not watching the jurors. Your focus, of course, through your art on the defendant, a really important notion. But could you see, was Cassie looking over at the jury?
CORNELL: I didn't see Cassie look at the jurors either. But I did look at the jurors.
COATES: What were they doing?
CORNELL: Well, they were looking very sober.
COATES: Really?
CORNELL: Yeah.
COATES: Were they reacting to particular points of any testimony that you could remember?
CORNELL: You know, I wasn't catching that because I would have been looking somewhere else.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
CORNELL: You know, I'd be looking just -- I -- I was really interested in Cassie because she was kind of wincing at times. You know, looking as if this is very painful test for her.
COATES: At what points did you notice that?
CORNELL: When she was talking about the -- this predictable, repetitive, sexual, exploitative behavior that she was allowing to go on, she would -- she would cringe. And I have no question that she really has an unpleasant memory of all of this.
COATES: Did you see the family behind Diddy today? And was there any contrast from previous days of how they interacted?
CORNELL: Well, they're really much very there to support him. And as soon as the court ended today, he was still in the room. The court officer said, sure, you can stay here and speak and say whatever you want to say so that -- they -- they all want to tell him how much they love him, you know.
COATES: You can hear that?
CORNELL: Yes, absolutely. I could see him saying it to them back.
COATES: I noticed yesterday, his mother is oftentimes the last person to leave the courtroom. Yesterday, she was almost leaning over the railing to try to communicate with him.
CORNELL: Yes.
COATES: Was that happening today?
CORNELL: A little bit. But she didn't have the -- this all to herself today. You know, she was the only one left yesterday when she was really trying to communicate with him.
[23:50:04]
And he was going, like, love you, see you. He was doing that. But -- but today, you know, she was part of the group. And, you know, they were all wanting to say love you that kind of thing.
COATES: You had an eye and a first front row view to such a moment in time. We're going to continue to rely on you. Thank you so much.
CORNELL: Thank you, hon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COATES: My panel is back with me now. Okay, I want to know from each of you. What is the moment -- if cross examination is going to start, what is the moment that you're going to go after or try to capture to really win your defense?
MARRIS: I want to bring the jury back in time. I want to use the electronic footprint, text messages. Remember, in the opening statement, the defense said, we have text messages that tell a very different story. That's going to bring us back to the mindset at the time all of this was happening. Taking these specific incidents, looking at the messages, comparing the testimony, and saying, but did you say no?
And so, if those text messages were to support that, we have to reframe the jury from the defense perspective to what was the point of view of both at the time. Was it consent or coercion? And I would use electronic footprint to do that.
COATES: That'll help you with your sex trafficking, which requires that force or coercion. The racketeering might be a little bit different. But let's talk about that. What would you go after?
SCHNEIDER: Well, I would try to get her a little bit away from the coercion, which is part of the racketeering like you're saying, you know, that he coerced women to have sex with him, and bring up gently -- she's still a victim, so you have to be gentle during the cross examination. But I would bring up -- well, this was a 10-year on and off relationship. Right? I would play on that relationship. And she left a couple of times. She dated a couple of other men.
And although that this testimony or going to be more testimony that -- that made Sean Combs angry, but she still had this free will to sort of leave and date other people and get out of the relationship. And I think that brings the point home that these acts, these terrible acts occurred inside a relationship, and that's what I would want the jury to hear from a defense side.
COATES: Jeremy?
SALAND: I'd kid glove it, but be firm. And I would make it clear that pregnant Cassie is not 19-year-old Cassie who had dollar signs in her eyes. She had a 10-album deal in her eyes. She had a life of fame and fortune in her eyes. And she had it all in her hands. And she was a willful participant. She was engaging in these freak-offs. She helped arrange for them at times. No one forced a drug down her throat. She reached out and said, what do I take?
There are own words that she used that can be used against her. And you have to be gentle about it. And it wouldn't be necessarily me as the guy being domineering in front of her as the bad guy. I'd have a woman cross examine her and make it clear, Cassie today, who you empathize with, is not the Cassie of the past many, many years.
COATES: Hmm.
SCHNEIDER: That would be effective.
MARRIS: Yeah. And -- and just say, look, you can look back at a relationship in retrospect and think, man, this was awful and terrible. We can all agree it was a horrible relationship.
SALAND: Yeah.
MARRIS: But, at the time, was there consent with respect to the sexual conduct? And that's really where the defense is going to go. And they're going to use some of what came out on direct in order to further that narrative.
COATES: You know, interesting, too, they're going to have to address the racketeering, the idea of the enterprise. And they do have testimony that has been corroborated by another witness, that there were people who traveled across state lines for the purpose of commercial sex or prostitution. They got to reconcile all those things in addition to Cassie and another victim.
But then there is the moment about Cassie's husband. The defense is saying, what? We might call him. Don't want him in the courtroom. The judge said, I'm going to limit when he can't be here to the area of time or point in time that he might be questioned about. Otherwise, as a victim of crimes, she has rights to be there.
MARRIS: Yeah.
COATES: Would you -- would you try to get him out?
MARRIS: Well, listen, as far as he's concerned, because she's a victim, she has rights to have support in the courtroom. At this point, he's limited to -- he's leaving the courtroom when it gets to 2018, and that's because there's an allegation, which presumably the defense wants to impeach her with respect to an alleged rape by Diddy and maybe what he knew at the time because they had just begun a relationship.
So, I think that getting him out of the courtroom is necessary. If you think that you're going to call a witness, they can't listen to the testimony and then have the ability to tailor their testimony to whatever comes out in the courtroom. So, that's something 101 that you would do to make sure that the testimony is not tainted before you even get them on the stand.
SALAND: It's also possibly a monetary piece, too. Was he part of seeking money and payment in the civil suit? What are these potential messages to Diddy, to Sean Combs, and sort of furtherance of that? And, well, maybe, again, back to money in your eyes, it's not just money in her eyes. There's a coconspirator that corroborates that money and that drive, and that's what this is about.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
COATES: Money grab is the words they used in the defense.
SALAND: Yeah.
COATES: And that's going to be one of their tactics. But there's more than one victim. It's not just Cassie. It's also somebody else who has a pseudonym who will testify as well.
[23:55:00]
SCHNEIDER: Right. And -- and I think we've had a little bit of a preview of that also in the opening statement because the defense is saying he was in a relationship with another woman and it wasn't a healthy relationship. It was dysfunctional, it was toxic, but it was still a relationship.
And again, that's the same theme the defense wants, this is domestic violence, this is not racketeering, this is domestic violence, this is not sex trafficking, and they're going to try to build those points to have a trial.
SALAND: To back you up and say one thing here, you know --
SCHNEIDER: Oh, you're backing me up? That's so nice to see you.
SALAND: That's how we -- we're friends. We're like that. Luigi, we -- I think we agree on this. Luigi doesn't belong in federal court. Luigi belongs to state court.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, definitely.
COATES: Luigi Mangione.
SALAND: Luigi Mangione, right, is the big --
COATES: Accused of having murdered United Health CEO.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SALAND: Yes. And that's appropriate in the state court of New York.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SALAND: And you know what? I think we agree this also very, very well belong in a state court, wherever that may be.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
COATES: We'll see. Mangione will be in court in about three weeks' time. But now, Cassie will be back on the stand tomorrow for an 8 to 10-week trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs. Thanks, everyone.
Much more on all things Diddy on my brand-new CNN podcast, "Trial by Jury." It's available wherever you get your podcast. Give it a listen. You won't be disappointed.
Thanks for watching, everyone. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
