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Laura Coates Live
DOJ Sits Down to Talk with Ghislaine Maxwell; Laura Coates Interviews Rep. Jamie Raskin; Iconic Wrestler Hulk Hogan Dies at the Age of 71; Trump-Powell Feud Awkwardly Spills into Public View. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
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ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Before we go, a quick programming note. Don't miss an all new episode of the "CNN Original Series: Billionaire Boys Club." One of the clubs' leader has a plan for revenge but it goes awry and it leads to his arrest. It airs Sunday night, 10 p.m., right here on CNN.
And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, the woman who knows Jeffrey Epstein's secrets talking to the DOJ. But who's holding the cards here? Ghislaine Maxwell or the Department of Justice? Plus, hard hats on but gloves off. The Trump-Powell feud delivers a particularly bizarre and awkward moment. And wrestling culture, yes, controversy. The legacy of Hulk Hogan. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
Let's be honest, it is not every day that the number two at the DOJ stops what he's doing to interview a convicted sex trafficker, let alone one who is serving a 20-year prison sentence. Now, mind you, it's not the scenario where years ago, he once prosecuted that person, and then years later, became the deputy attorney general, and then met with her. No. But even that, by the way, that would be odd. He could have sent the prosecutor who actually tried the case. Oh, wait, that was the now fired Maurene Comey.
So, today, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, he left Washington, D.C. to go meet with Jeffrey Epstein's longtime associate, Ghislaine Maxwell. This as President Trump finds increasingly difficult to shake the fallout over the Epstein files.
Now, this is actually Maxwell returning to prison after the meeting, and she's carrying a box of materials. What in the world is in that box, people? Are they documents? Are they files? Are these already public? Is it Pandora's political box?
Well, apparently, Blanche is teasing even more talks to come. In fact, he says he'll continue interviewing her tomorrow. And her attorney says nothing was off limits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MARKUS, ATTORNEY OF GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He took a full day and asked a lot of questions. And Ms. Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped. She never invoked a privilege. She never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly, and to the best of her ability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, now, there are even more questions here. There's the obvious. What did she say? What did he say for that matter? There's the issue of credibility. Can she even be trusted? And, of course, the motive. What does she want? Well, it's not clear what she actually knows beyond what's already publicly out there or beyond what the DOJ knows from their sealed files.
But she was close to Epstein for decades. Remember, she even believed that she shouldn't have even been prosecuted because the Florida prosecutors had agreed not to charge Epstein's co-conspirators. I guess she thought that applied to her.
So, as to whether she can be trusted, I mean, this isn't just a hypothetical people are asking out in the world. I mean, at least it wasn't a hypothetical for the prosecutors who tried her case, because the DOJ has repeatedly insisted that Maxwell is a serial liar, out only to protect herself.
Prosecutors, they wrote this in one 2020 filing. The defendant's willingness to brazenly lie under oath about her conduct, including some of the conduct charged in the indictment, strongly suggests her true motive has been and remains to avoid being held accountable for her crimes.
And so, what are those lies? Well, let's look at the indictment. And, by the way, they didn't just suspect she was lying, they must have thought they could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, because she was originally charged with two counts of perjury.
Well, prosecutors cite this exchange in one of those counts. Maxwell was asked, did Jeffrey Epstein have a scheme to recruit underage girls for sexual massages? If you know. She responded, I don't know what you're talking about.
That's despite years of photos and flight logs and victim testimony tying her to Epstein's abuse network.
[23:04:57]
And in this exchange, it was listed in the second perjury charge. The prosecutor asked, is it your testimony that you've never given anybody a massage? Maxwell said, I have not given anyone a massage. The prosecutor's follow-up, you never gave Mr. Epstein a massage? Is that your testimony? Maxwell, that is my testimony. She was pressed again. You never gave minor victim two a massage is your testimony? Maxwell, I never gave minor victim two a massage.
But we know who minor victim two is. Annie Farmer. And she testified under oath at Maxwell's trial that Maxwell gave her an unwanted massage at Epstein's ranch in 1996. Now, as for that last question, what does she want? And that's the easy one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, MIAMI HERALD: Obviously, she wants some kind of a pardon or some kind of a deal.
REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): We know that she likely wants a pardon from Donald Trump.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: What incentive does she have to just sing like a bird unless she's getting some benefit from it, either in the form of a pardon or in the form of some lowering of her sentence to get her out a little bit earlier?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Let's put a fine point on this, okay? You've got a convicted sex trafficker, who prosecutors believe lied under oath even before her trial, who wants out of prison, now talking with an administration who has told the public more than once in just the last few weeks, there's nothing more to see here.
They are now looking to bury a political crisis once and for all. Sound complicated? Well, yeah, some of Trump's allies on Capitol Hill certainly think so. This whole thing is starting, and I'm being generous, to look a little too messy for the president's own party. And tonight, more and more Republicans are urging the very same thing: Release the files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): I think they ought to release them.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Release the damn files.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I want to protect victims, but be as transparent as you can with Epstein.
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): I'm kind of rip the Band-Aid off sort of guy myself.
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): I'd like to know what's on those files.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: With me now, former chief of the SDNY's Westchester division, Mimi Rocah, editor-in-chief and owner of All Rise News, Adam Klasfeld, and senior reporter at "The Bulwark," Will Sommer. Glad to have you all here.
Mimi, I got to ask you this because a lot of focus has happened on her not pleading the Fifth today and the attorney saying that she answered every single question. From your perspective, is that a kind of false praise given that at least with respect to sex trafficking, she can't be prosecuted again because of double jeopardy?
MIMI ROCAH, FORMER WESTCHESTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY FOR SDNY: Yeah. I mean, there are so many unknowns here about why she may have answered every question. First of all, we don't know what the questions are.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
ROCAH: We don't know if she answered them truthfully. To your point in your opening, there is a -- should be serious questions about her credibility. And the person doing the questioning is the one -- it's not the one who prosecuted her, tried her, knows her case, can really test her credibility in the way that prosecutors were because, as you pointed out, she was fired, Maurene Comey.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
ROCAH: And, you know, we don't know what kind of deal or arrangements or negotiations. I mean, this whole idea that they're being transparent is window dressing in so many ways, including that we really don't know what has been said privately. We know what's being said publicly, which is just strange that, as you said, the deputy attorney general is doing this, let alone tweeting about it, I'm going in talking with a cooperator, let me tweet about it. I mean, it just -- it is all so bizarre, and we don't really know what is going on in that room.
COATES: A fine point, especially because -- unless we know what even got her to the table. I don't know how you necessarily trust what's on the table, but we should see.
I mean, Adam, let me ask you because you wonder how can Blanche, let alone the public, but how can Blanche in that room even be sure she is telling him the truth? Because usually, you assess credibility, you look at files, you look at documents, you want corroboration because you don't trust anyone in those settings. Can the public know without seeing that corroboration to really assess her credibility?
ADAM KLASFELD, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF AND CO-FOUNDER, ALL RISE NEWS: Right. I mean, when you were doing your intro and you showed those snippets of her deposition, those were two depositions where she was charged with perjury for lying during that.
And I was wondering, as you were reciting that, did Blanche even know about those lies? Did Blanche even look at those? You mentioned Annie Farmer.
[23:09:56]
The testimony that she gave, wrenching testimony, I sat through it during Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. Ghislaine Maxwell had her disrobe before that massage, a massage she claimed to have never given in her life. There was other testimony, wrenching testimony, by Jane, a pseudonym for one of the victims, who also said that Maxwell was present during these massages. And it was testimony by Jane and Annie Farmer that led prosecutors to say that Maxwell participated in the sexual abuse.
So, yes, there's a serious lack of credibility of the witness, of the person who Todd Blanche, Trump's former attorney, turned deputy attorney general, that he's walking into here and that he does not have the history with the case like the person whom he fired.
COATES: And, of course, I mean, obviously, he used to be with the SDNY himself. Well, I mean, attorney. He was -- I think, for nine years, he was there. I think he was the co-chair of the violent crimes. Surely, he is more than aware of what it takes to establish a credible cooperator. Normally, it happens before a trial.
But we'll get back to that in a second because at the moment, to maybe his point, the only people who are really talking, at least publicly that we're hearing from substantively, is Ghislaine Maxwell's attorneys. They're out there in front of the camera. They're talking about this. And then the deputy A.G., Blanche, says that the DOJ will disclose more information -- here's his quote -- "at the appropriate time." Is that good enough for the Magaverse?
WILL SOMMER, SENIOR REPORTER, THE BULWARK: I don't think it's going to be enough. I mean, so much of this, this is such a strange situation. The other panelists have hit on this. You've hit on this. How bizarre this is? It's like a John Grisham novel. They've got to go to the jail, go to the courthouse, see the long-lost prisoner. And a lot, this is being driven by politics. This is why this looks so weird and not like a normal Justice Department proceeding.
I think what the administration is looking for is a way to sew this up in a way that is going to satisfy the MAGA base and independents who have been interested in this case as well. And so, they can say, well, we talked to Ghislaine and, you know, this is what she said.
I mean, she's the definition of someone who's under duress here. She will say anything to get out of this. As we've said before, she's not very trustworthy to begin with. And so, this is a very strange situation, this back and forth. And at the same time, I mean, this is a top issue for Trump voters, and I don't think they're going to give it up easily.
COATES: Good point. I mean, Mimi, you know Todd Blanche. He's now the deputy A.G. You've worked together. He's now, of course, in this position. He didn't send a line prosecutor to do this. I mean, obviously, I know Maurene Comey was fired, but no prosecutor works on a case of this magnitude in isolation. There were probably others who likely were well-versed in this case as well. Why didn't they send any of them?
ROCAH: Or agents, by the way. There a whole team of FBI agents who worked on this. Why is not one of the case agents there? I mean, that actually is almost the most important. One of the cardinal rules as a prosecutor, as I'm sure you know, Laura, is you don't meet with a witness alone. You always have a defendant, a potential cooperator. You always have someone there to be a fact witness.
Let's say now there's some proceeding, court proceeding down the road where Maxwell sues the government or there's another charge, I mean, any kind of official proceeding, is Todd Blanche going to go on the stand and talk about what happened in that room?
COATES: Hmm.
ROCAH: Because there's no agent there. There's no even other prosecutor, as you say. Of course, there's other people from the office who either were part of the team in some way, I think the lead prosecutors are gone, or can be read in a way that is different from this massive overview.
But I think the point here that everyone is making, you've made, will made, that just want to drive home, the reason this is being done this way is because this isn't a fact-finding mission. This is not really about the DOJ trying to get to the truth of what happened, what Maxwell did, and who she knows and who else was really involved. This is political showmanship. This is trying to solve a political crisis through the DOJ, which is just the most corrupt, you know, inappropriate use of DOJ's power.
And Todd Blanche knows that very well. If this were happening to one of his trial defendants, the old Todd Blanche that I knew, he would be having a fit about main justice and the DOJ doing this. And now, he's just a part of it in a way that is really inexplicable to those of us who worked with him.
COATES: Question is, why? And to that point, I mean, it's such a fine point that Mimi has raised here, Adam, the idea that now, if it's just Todd and Ghislaine in a room, it's he said, she said, you're going to put him on a stand at some point in time.
But even follow that thread a little bit more. He posted earlier, Todd Blanche posted earlier this week, no one is above the law and no lead is off limits.
[23:14:59]
Now, I think that last part, for so many people, got glossed over. But I'm honing in on this and here's why. If one of these leads in the conversation were to uncover something of value to the DOJ, that would trigger an investigation, which would mean prosecutors would not release it to the public. They would work up these leads. They would figure out where it ends and what to go from there. There wouldn't be files for Congress. So, it could be ultimately right back where they started with no disclosure. So, what would be in it for the DOJ? Just stalling?
KLASFELD: Well, you know, no lead is off limits. Supposing they find something, that they find, let's say, politically-expedient that they want to pursue, would it be a confession that their -- remember, for months, they'd been saying they were going to get to the bottom of this, they were going to release everything. Is it a confession that their prior investigation was worth nothing but now based on the say-so of a person who was charged with perjury and convicted of sex trafficking, they have a lead, they're going to pursue? It's hard to see what their end game is here.
COATES: Really important, too. And Will, I mean, there was a new op- ed for "The Wall Street Journal." Karl Rove is who wrote it. And in it, he says, there's hell to pay when those who hyped the conspiracy have closed the books on the case. Team Trump is now in damage control mode. They've also fought among themselves. That will leave scars. What are those scars? The midterms?
SOMMER: Very possibly. I mean, we're seeing, I think, a lot of these MAGA or -- excuse me, these sort of manosphere bro podcasters who weren't typically very Trump people. They're in -- they got on board in 2024. And now, they're saying, wait a minute, is he insulting our intelligence? They're flip flopping all over the place. Kash Patel closes the case. Now, he says, you got to go and interview Ghislaine, we go to get to the bottom of this.
So, I think with that audience, particularly young men who see this as an important issue and suddenly, they feel like Trump is just acting like a member of the establishment, I think it could be a real issue there.
COATES: An important point. Thank you so much, everyone. A great conversation.
Still ahead tonight, it's one of the big questions we keep getting from all of you. Where is Alex Acosta? You know that one former U.S. attorney who gave Epstein that original plea deal, the sweetheart one? Is Congress going to talk to him? Well, I'll ask Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin that very question and more next.
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[23:20:00]
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COATES: New tonight, "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that 2003 reporting, our birthday album, the one that had a letter from Trump to Jeffrey Epstein, we're learning that there was also a letter from Bill Clinton in that album.
They report that Clinton's letter read -- quote -- "It's reassuring, isn't it, to have lasted as long across all the years of learning and knowing, adventures and (illegible word), and also to have your childlike curiosity, the drive to make a difference and the solace of friends" -- unquote.
CNN has reached out for comment and Clinton is not accused of any crimes. A spokesperson for Clinton declined to comment to "The Wall Street Journal" but says that Clinton cut off ties to Epstein more than a decade before Epstein 2019 arrest. Now, this development, it comes as the House is moving to subpoena Clinton's depositions over Epstein and, frankly, the Epstein files in full. And "The Wall Street Journal" reports that those pages from the Epstein birthday album have also been reviewed by DOJ officials who investigated Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and it is part of Epstein's estate.
Now, some House Democrats, well, they want their hands on that album.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): So, I'm actually going to invite Bradley Edwards to meet with the House Oversight Committee. And I think we can easily move forward on this subpoena of that birthday book in which could really advance this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Joining me now, Congressman Jamie Raskin, a Democrat from Maryland and ranking member on the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman, welcome back.
Look, I know that you want a subpoena info from the DOJ, full stop. I wonder if there's any concern that's being contemplated that the information might contain something that's damaging to perhaps your own political allies, and if it does, would that change your desire to get the information?
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): No, not at all, because it's not a political exercise for us. We want to get to the full truth of a sex ring that was being operated in order to traffic children and to sexually exploit them.
So, you know, I don't care whether you've got a "D" next to your name, an "R" next to your name, and an "I" next to name if you're involved in it. We should release it, especially if the President of the United States is the one who has been telling everybody that all of the details of this power elite sex ring will be revealed, and he was the one demanding it up until he had reason to believe that he was in it.
COATES: Tell me the timeline. You want to move to subpoena the Epstein files. How quickly can the House move?
RASKIN: Well, the House could have moved over the last several weeks as we've been demanding it.
All of the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee joined in a letter that we sent to Chairman Jordan saying that we need to subpoena Attorney General Bondi, the FBI Director, Kash Patel, to have them bring all of that information with them, and then subject it to questioning about the whole thing, and why there was a sudden U-turn in an attempt to cover the whole thing up after they were the ones telling the country it needed to be released as a matter of political urgency.
[23:25:02] COATES: So, what happened, because many Americans, of course, have seen something similar to this movie before in terms of wanting to move for something and being thwarted at different turns? What will you do if the Department of Justice thumbs their nose, rejects the request? Would you hold members of the DOJ in contempt knowing, of course, a reference would go right back to them?
RASKIN: Sure. But, of course, the Republicans control the committee --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
RASKIN: -- and they've got the votes. So, ultimately, if they remain unified and implacable, then we're not going to be able to get a subpoena. On the other hand, we've got a discharge motion, which is a motion to force the bill compelling production of these documents.
We've got the votes to get it out, apparently, with 11 or 12 Republicans who will join all of the Democrats. So, we will get a vote on the floor. If we can get a vote on the floor, that's what a discharge motion is. It's forcing it to the floor. And if those Republicans don't defect and abandon us over the August recess, which people are calling the Jeffrey Epstein summer recess --
COATES: Hmm.
RASKIN: -- if they don't abandon us, then we'll have the votes to make it happen.
COATES: Based on what you want to get, I have to ask you, there's a question that is on the tip of the tongue of so many Americans, and I'm curious to what your answer is, because we often invite viewers to ask questions, this one was very emblematic. Dee from Dallas had this question, congressman. Why isn't anyone, Congress, speaking to Alex Acosta?
Now, of course, Acosta was the former U.S. attorney who cut that sweetheart deal with Epstein down in Florida. Would you be in favor of getting his testimony or subpoenaing him?
RASKIN: A thousand percent, Dee from Dallas. I'm totally with you. In fact, when -- when Acosta was the secretary of labor for Donald Trump, I was demanding that we bring him in, and we sent a letter saying that he needed to be subpoenaed in question.
This guy had a 60-count federal indictment of the whole sweeping sex abuse, human trafficking conspiracy that was drafted by the Department of Justice, and then negotiated the entire thing away for one limp, weak state charge of solicitation for Jeffrey Epstein after being heavily lobbied by certainly lawyers, if not politicians, too. We know Alan Dershowitz was on that team.
COATES: Hmm.
RASKIN: And then Epstein ended up with a complete slap on the wrist, not even really a slap on the wrist, a massage on the wrist, because he had a deal where he could hide his four top or four of his top co- conspirators. They wouldn't be touched under that plea bargain agreement that Acosta agreed to. And then he didn't even have to go to jail for his 18-month sentence, where he had to go, but only to sleep, but during the daytimes, he was free. God only knows what he was doing.
COATES: So why haven't you heard from him?
RASKIN: Well, we haven't heard from him because he hasn't been subpoenaed yet. Acosta resigned. You'll recall he resigned --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
RASKIN: -- rather than go through this anymore. But I think that his testimony is essential. I'm with you. I think we should retrace the steps of this whole thing because it has really been a cover up from the very beginning. And we owe that to the victims. And I've heard victims speaking out about this. And they want justice, they want the truth to be told, and they want transparency in the process.
COATES: We'll see if that all persists. One final question for you, because I am curious about your take on this. Are you shocked that there may be two days' worth of conversations between the deputy attorney general of the Department of Justice and Ghislaine Maxwell in a federal prison?
RASKIN: I mean, it's appalling. Why was he there? Why did he go and see her of all of the prisoners in the United States? It just makes no sense.
COATES: Can you learn why? Out of power of Congress, can you learn why and get the answers?
RASKIN: Well, again, it would require Republicans to join us. But if we keep the popular heat on, they will join us. But look, I mean, the logic of the situation would tell us this: People who comply with Donald Trump's wishes get pardons. Right? If you do Donald Trump's will, you get a pardon.
So, one can only assume that the deputy attorney general, who went over there, who was Donald Trump's personal lawyer before becoming the number two at DOJ, is there to see that Maxwell is going to say the right thing. I mean, I fully expect her testimony to appear in all bold caps with exclamation points all over it.
[23:30:01]
I mean, they will pretty much produce her testimony for her, and she will say exactly what they want her to say.
COATES: Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you.
RASKIN: You bet.
COATES: Up next, from the ring to the big screen to even the RNC stage and all of the ugly scandals in between, Hulk Hogan tonight being remembered after his sudden passing at the age of 71. My next guest went toe-to-toe with the shirt-ripping brother yelling superstar. I'm talking about DDP. Diamond Dallas Page live with me next to remember his friend, Hulk Hogan.
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[23:35:00]
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HULK HOGAN, WRESTLER: I'm the biggest star, past or present, in the wrestling world today. And there will never ever be a bigger star in the wrestling business than Hollywood Hulk Hogan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, there's no denying the impact that Hulk Hogan had on the world of professional wrestling. His larger than life personality, both in and out of the ring, turned the WWE into the global phenomenon it is today.
Well, he died this morning at the age of 71 after being treated by rescue crews for cardiac arrest. He leaves behind an unforgettable career from his rivalries with rowdy Rudy -- Roddy Piper, excuse me, and Andre the Giant, his classic lines like what you going to do when Hulkamania runs wild on you, or his iconic transformation into the villain of Hollywood Hulk Hogan in the 90s. It led to one of his most famous showdowns, the 2002 icon versus icon match after accepting a challenge from a younger competitor known as "The Rock."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOGAN: And, by the way, Rock, good luck, because you're going to need it!
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Uh-oh.
(APPLAUSE)
UNKNOWN: Hey, man, let go.
DWAYNE JOHNSON, WRESTLER: Not as much as you!
(APPLAUSE)
Brother!
(APPLAUSE)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Oh! oh, brother! Rock got him! Rock got him! Hulk Hogan.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: His days in the spotlight, they went without controversy, though. Hogan admitted to using steroids in the 90s. And in 2015, he was caught on video using racial slurs, leading the WWE to terminate his contract. Hogan since apologized for his comments, but many wrestlers and fans never forgave him.
He also dabbled into politics towards the end of his life as an unabashed Trump supporter. And who can forget this moment from the 2024 Republican convention?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOGAN: Enough was enough. I said, let Trumpamania run wild, brother. Let Trumpamania rule again. Let Trumpamania make America great again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, joining me now, it's time to feel the bang of talking about WWE Hall of Fame wrestler, Diamond Dallas Page, DDE. Thank you for being here.
You know, I had to tell you, I hate when I meet people like this because I wanted to talk to you, and I had wished it would not have been on the day when you lost a dear, dear friend. I mean, you were friends for a long time outside the ring. Can you just tell us what that relationship meant to you, especially when you were starting out?
DIAMOND DALLAS PAGE, WWE HALL OF FAME WRESTLER: You know, a lot of people think it's all about who you know or who knows you. Personally, I believe it's all about who's willing to say they know you, who's willing to put their name on the line for you. And Hulk did that at a very early time for me. Like, I didn't start wrestling. I was 35. My career didn't take off until I was 40. And that was in '96 and really on the back end of '96.
And then my feud started with the NWO. And, of course, at that point, when Hulk went from Mr. Red and Yellow, eat your vitamins, say your prayers to, you know, ripping up the red and yellow, and go -- when that Bash at the Beach was going on and Nash and Hall were beating up on Savage, and when Hulk came down, you just assumed he's going to save the day. But, no, he dropped that leg on March and turned heel which, in our business, means the bad guy.
The phones that are broadcasting lit up like crazy because the parents were so upset. They were so upset because their kids were crying. It was -- it was an emotional thing all the way around.
What's really beautiful about wrestling is, and why people get so into it, because it blurs the lines. You know, I don't want to spoil this for anybody, but wrestling is predetermined.
COATES: Say it yourself.
DALLAS PAGE: But one thing is for sure, I know you'll agree with me, Laura -- hey, one thing is for sure, and I know you'll agree with me, you can't fake gravity. [23:40:00]
And the beating that our bodies go through is through the roof. And there's nobody that can compare to us. But linemen in the NFL are guys who ride bulls for a living. Those guys can -- you know, they can run in the same course that we do. We take it with serious beating.
But I want to get back to that NWO moment, when Hulk changed the face of wrestling. Him and Eric Bischoff came up with the idea that Hulk would be the guy that would be the third guy.
And when it happened, you could see the people were booing. But man, when he started talking and he turned himself stone cold heel, that -- man, the garbage that was being thrown into the ring, you can't pay people to do that, like it was the people who were really pissed. But it was it was so great because people didn't know of Vince McMahon, who really started this whole thing with Hulk Hogan. And, you know, he talked about an icon.
COATES: Hmm.
DALLAS PAGE: First of all, I got -- two icons, almost 48 hours. Ozzy Osbourne and Hulk Hogan both leave this Earth, as we know it. Our lives, that we're leaving. And both at the same time. Like, oh, my God.
(CROSSTALK)
It's depressing and --
COATES: Yeah. What was it that --- I mean?
(LAUGHTER)
I heard myself ask now. I already know what he's going to say. But tell me what -- you talk about you can't defy gravity. I mean, he had a career that in many ways defied it. He has been a household name for decades. What was it about the person that you knew? Because even you, you know, you faced off on multiple occasions. But what was it about him?
DALLAS PAGE: Well, he had just said -- Terry Bollea, which is his real name, but I never called him Terry, I always called him Hulk --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DALLAS PAGE: -- Terry Bollea was a very, very cool character. I mean, he's a man of substance. He was a family man. He loves his kids. He was at the heart of it. No matter what he was saying, he believed it. And he made you believe it and get on board. For me, there are so many people that were so influential, and taking the guy who's 35 years old to someday being a Hall of Famer, Hulk was very significant on that road.
Without Dusty Rhodes, there's no Diamond Dallas Page, Jake Roberts, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Eric Bischoff, Macho Man, and the Hulkster. The Hulkster told me, in 1994, I was 38 years old, I'm at the bottom of the middle of the card, I just got out of the ring and we were in Berlin, he grabbed me, and he said, whatever you're doing, keep doing it. It's not this year, it's not next year, but it's somewhere down the line. I believe that you have the ability to draw huge money with me.
Now, let's go four years from that day. We shot an angle with Dennis Rodman and Hulk Hogan and "The Mailman," Karl Malone, who's the fourth leading scorer of all time in the NBA from the Utah Jazz. Me and Malone hit the stage, not the wrestling circuit. We were on "The Tonight Show" with Jay Leno in the middle of us.
It was a spectacle because when Rodman got involved, and I love Rodman, but when he got involved -- he's a bit of a circus act just like us. Okay, it's noticeable. Okay, let's pay attention. But when Malone got involved, whoa. There were people like -- I remember (INAUDIBLE). He was mad. Like, why is Karl Malone getting involved in this? Well, maybe because it's some of the greatest entertainment ever. Professional wrestling, you don't know.
I did a movie called "Ready to Rumble" one time.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
DALLAS PAGE: And when I was being asked questions, I could tell this one person did not dig what we were doing. So, I said to him, I said, you don't like what we do, do you? He said, not really.
COATES: Hmm.
DALLAS PAGE: I said, you like Broadway? He goes, yeah, I love Broadway. What's your favorite play? He goes, "The Phantom of the Opera." I go, I don't want to spoil it for you, but the guy doesn't really get burnt with oil.
COATES:
DALLAS PAGE: You know, it's --
COATES: Well, you know what?
DALLAS PAGE: We're doing the same thing every night.
COATES: You're right.
DALLAS PAGE: We're doing something different every night.
COATES: You're right to say --
DALLAS PAGE: And Hulk, he said he knows me.
COATES: Hmm.
DALLAS PAGE: He said -- he helped me. He pulled me up. And I main evented so many times with Hulk. It was an honor and a privilege. COATES: Yeah.
DALLAS PAGE: I mean, I can't -- it hurts --
COATES: I can feel it. I can feel how much --
DALLAS PAGE: It took my breath away.
COATES: Yeah.
DALLAS PAGE: It took my breath away.
COATES: Oh.
DALLAS PAGE: Today, I was -- I have this -- my company, DDP Yoga, has a thing called Transformation Nation, Transformation University. And we had brought all our people in who were graduates this year.
[23:45:00]
I wasn't going to go because I got some kind of virus in my eye.
COATES: Oh, God.
DALLAS PAGE: And I said, I got to go. All these people, they've got to this spot, they're waiting. I got to go down there. So, I go down. I do the workout. I'm getting ready to leave, grab my bag, and my wife grabs me. My wife, Payge, she pulls me. She goes, come here, come here, come here. I go, let me get my bag. She's going, no, no, come here. She didn't want anybody to walk up to me and tell me --
COATES: Oh, no.
DALLAS PAGE: -- that Hulk was no longer with us.
COATES: Oh, God.
DALLAS PAGE: And I got into the office and I go, what's the matter? Yeah.
COATES: I mean, I'm telling you --
DALLAS PAGE: It took my brother away.
COATES: You and I could talk all day because I'm so intrigued by what you have to say. And hearing your stories, it's obvious how much you loved him, and what he did for you. And I'm glad you were here.
DALLAS PAGE: I did.
COATES: Diamond Dallas Page, DDP, everyone, thank you so much.
Still ahead, it felt like a scene out of "Curb Your Enthusiasm," but Larry David wasn't there. You know, it's Donald Trump and his Fed nemesis, Chairman Jerome Powell. They were side by side in one of the most awkward and revealing moments yet next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
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COATES: Meeting up with a tour group can be awkward. I mean, especially if two people on that tour don't see eye to eye. And the most awkward tour of the day likely goes to the Federal Reserve in Washington. President Trump touring the renovations there with frenemy Fed chair, Jerome Powell. In front of all the cameras and with Powell right by his side, Trump accusing Powell of mismanaging the project. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It looks like it's about 3.1 billion. Went up a little bit. Or a lot. So, the 2.7 is now 3.1.
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR, UNITED STATES FEDERAL RESERVE: I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yeah. It just came out.
POWELL: I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed. You just added in a third building, is what that is. That's a third building.
TRUMP: It's a building that's being built.
POWELL: It was built five years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, let's roll that video back because Powell is visibly shaking his head as Trump questions the cost of the renovations, and then comes that -- the head whip, the side eye. Let me explain.
Republicans, including the president, blame the rising cost of renovations on waste, on fraud, on abuse, and they blame Powell for that. The Fed and Powell blame it on inflation and outdated utilities. This is all theater for the president's demand that Powell lower interest rates, which Powell, as you know, refuses to do. And, of course, it's all more fodder for the bigger picture. Will Trump actually fire Powell? Will Powell resign?
With me now, Republican strategist and former senior to Tim Scott's presidential campaign, Matt Gorman, and Democratic strategist Chuck Rocha. Glad to have both of you here.
First of all, let's just start with this. It was awkward. He tried to have receipts. There was a push and pull. What was the point of this photo-op? Did it actually help Trump or Powell?
MATT GORMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR TO SENATOR TIM SCOTT'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I think a couple things. We got Trump back on offense, where he hasn't been for at least a week or two now. We got him on offense, talking about something he wanted to talk about.
Look, the economic team for the White House is pretty diverse when it comes to points of view. You have Peter Navarro, you have Kevin Hassett. They all agree on a couple things. They're all very frustrated with Jerome Powell. They all agree that rates should be lowered. And they all agree that he's probably being way too over cautious when it comes to inflation. They pressure on him there.
CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR BERNIE SANDERS'S 2016 AND 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS: Jerome Powell is all out of giving damn. I'll promise you that. And you can see that today. Donald Trump went over today to say, look, big boy, we need interest rates down. If you don't, I'm going to walk around your new building and point out where all the things don't line up around here because you're costing us too much money.
And when Republicans -- please spare me this. There's too much money when you just added three and a half trillion dollars to the budget with the big, beautiful bill or whatever they call that thing.
The last point is that it was all a photo-op and this was, I think, to get Epstein off of the front pages again and talk about something else. And he has a good point, the president does, from the Democrat, to walk in there and be like, this thing is way over budget, what's going on over here?
COATES: Why focus on this as opposed to -- well, actually, why focus on South Park? Let me go there instead because, in addition to this moment, I mean, you have the White House going after them for their depiction of Trump. Here's a clip of what they had an issue with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Another random bitch commented on my Instagram that you're on the Epstein list.
UNKNOWN: The Epstein list? Are we still talking about that?
UNKNOWN: Are you on the list or not? It's weird that whenever it comes up, you just tell everyone to relax.
UNKNOWN: I'm not telling everyone to relax. Relax, guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: You know, the White House was releasing a statement today and it says the show is -- quote --- "hanging on by a thread with uninspired ideas in a desperate attempt for attention." First of all, with all the things going on, and it would take me the entirety of my show to detail every single person or group that South Park has gone after in the years and satirized in some ways, why bother to even address this?
GORMAN: It's a statement. They put out a bunch. COATES: Why?
GORMAN: I don't really -- it doesn't really bother me, honestly. But I'll say this. A week ago, we were talking about how Trump was canceling and silencing people, the First Amendment. If they really were doing that, wouldn't that be a case that they would be doing that, too? They -- Democrats are blaming Trump for canceling Colbert, and that's still going on. I think the First Amendment --
COATES: Well, the night is young.
(LAUGHTER)
GORMAN: -- is still intact. Thank the Lord.
ROCHA: These boys have been doing this for 20 years. They went after everybody, Democrats, Republicans. There's one thing you can't blame him for. Paramount, which we've been talking about, gave him $1.5 billion to do like 20 episodes and to have rights to their old stuff because they've been killing it and messing with folks since the day they started. They've made a great business out of it. Fourth rate, second rate, whatever the rate is, I'd like some of that rate.
COATES: I mean, the idea of all the things that are going on in the world right now, for them to stop and address South Park is just pretty stunning to me. But then there's this moment. You mentioned Colbert. Chuck, Democrats are blaming politics for the firing. Oh, they're not firing. The ending of his show. Maybe very precise. He was not fired. His show is canceled.
[23:54:56]
COATES: "The New York Times" reports that an aid to a House Democrat said the Colbert talk -- quote -- "sounded like an awfully boomer- centric concern at a time when the party needed to stop its bleeding among young people." So, are Democrats spending too much time on Colbert?
ROCHA: I think they could be. But also, they could be using it to their advantage as well. Two things can be true at the same time. He was losing like millions of dollars an episode, but he was also the most popular T.V. on that time slot.
COATES: Excuse me. But thank you.
GORMAN: Oh. Yeah, oh.
(LAUGHTER)
ROCHA: Second to Laura Coates. Second to Laura Coates in the time slot.
GORMAN: That's what's notable. That's actually what's notable, is that (INAUDIBLE) is number two in the time slot, but he was getting more ad revenue because he was living on social media.
ROCHA: I'm pretty sure --
GORMAN: That's fair. That's fair. But like -- but that -- I think that was the biggest case. I think -- you and I were sitting next door, night before the election. Democrats love celebrities. They obsess over them like the nerds in high schools next to popular kids. They got to get out of the bubble on this. Colbert was talking to a bubble, and he was preaching to the people that were already converted. Much of Democrats got to get out of that bubble and relate to more of America. So, when elections --
ROCHA: Just like me. More of America. I'm America. You all need to come or get with me.
COATES: Unquote the popular kid. Matt, Chuck, thank you both so much. And hey, thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
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