Return to Transcripts main page
Laura Coates Live
Shutdown Imminent After Votes Fail; Trump Threatens To Fire Federal Workers Amid Shutdown; Trump And Hegseth Rail Against Democrats And "Woke" Standards. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired September 30, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: America is just one hour away from a government shutdown. The first time it has happened in nearly seven years.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Laura Coates. I'm with Kaitlan Collins on Capitol Hill. We're going to be covering all the angles of the shutdown for the next two hours. And even though the clock is winding down, do not be fooled into thinking that there's going to be some sort of last-minute intervention because spoiler alert, there will not be.
Hundreds of thousands of federal workers will soon be at risk of being furloughed or sent home without pay. And there might be even more pain because tonight, President Trump is vowing mass layoffs and cuts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We can do things during the shutdown that are irreversible, that are bad for them and irreversible by them, like cutting vast numbers of people out, cutting things that they like, cutting programs that they like.
The Democrats want to shut it down. So, when you shut it down, you have to do layoffs. So, we'd be laying off a lot of people that are going to be very affected. And the Democrats, they're going to be Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: So, the questions now are, how long will the shutdown last and who will Americans blame for it? The last one happened was when President Trump was in office in his first term. It dragged on for 35 days, a record. And the Congressional Budget Office says that that one cost the U.S. economy $11 billion.
But the prospect of sweeping layoffs is raising the stakes even higher this time around as with Democrats and Republicans are digging in on their positions, convinced that the voters will punish the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): He is admitting that he is doing the firing of people, if God forbid it happens. He's using Americans as pawns, as I said. Democrats do not want a shutdown.
MIKE JOHNSON, SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: We want to keep the government open to serve the people. Chuck Schumer and the Democrats have decided to close it. We'll see how long this standoff continues, but it's real people that get harmed in the process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, we have got a lot to get to tonight. Kaitlan, the shutdown, it's going to go into effect at 12 or 1 a.m. The real question everyone is asking is, of course, your specialty, the White House, do they really believe that there is some sort of off-ramp in the coming days if that shutdown does happen one hour from now?
COLLINS: They're not really sure how long this could last. We've been talking to officials at the White House. I was told President Trump was going to stay up tonight past that midnight deadline as all of this is playing out here on Capitol Hill.
They are kind of relishing it in the sense that they believe that they can use this shutdown in certain ways, whether that comes to efforts that we've seen by the budget director, Russ Vought, when it comes to certain programs, canceling them. As the president put it in the Oval Office today, layoffs of federal workers. They're saying all of that is on the table as this shutdown is going to get underway here in an hour.
And, you know, we've been speaking with Speaker Mike Johnson, Senate Democrats, who are really going to be the ones making the deciding factor here in terms of these votes that are continuing to happen within the Senate as the leader, Thune, over there is trying to get senators to break, just a few more of them to come over to their side. Right now, that doesn't appear to happen as we're less than an hour away now from this shutdown. And so, all sides are basically bracing for this to happen.
And the question that no one has really been able to answer is how they're going to get out of this because both sides are really dug into their positions here, Laura, whether it's Democrats saying we want to extend these Obamacare subsidies or undo the Medicaid cuts that were passed in the Republicans bill this summer, or Republicans saying no, that they are trying to hold the government hostage by making those demands.
Right now, not a lot of them are giving in. Just a couple Senate Democrats we did see vote yes on that bill tonight, but not enough to get it over the line. And so, it is an open question of what happens next year. COATES: I mean, look, Congress is digging in and Americans about to be neck deep. Let's get now to CNN's Sunlen Serfaty who is on Capitol Hill. Sunlen, I mean, this disagreement, it's over healthcare in part. It's driving so much of the standoff, though. And I'm wondering, how are both sides even framing their position?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Laura, you had that right. At the heart of this, really, is over health care spending. Democrats have been very firm here. One of their biggest demands that they want to see concessions on from Republicans is the extension of these Obamacare subsidies that are set to expire at the end of the year.
Republicans have been very firm. They see this as two very distinct conversations. They want to pass this clean continuing resolution with no additions to it and have that potential conversation over the health care subsidies for another day.
[23:05:06]
Democrats, frankly, just do not take them at their word. They do not believe that this is a priority for them. We saw the House majority leader repeat that just in the last hour on CNN's air, that they've shown no interest to do that. So, they want to, in essence, use maximum leverage here that they have in order to help Republicans fund the government. They want that key concession over these subsidies.
So, it is certainly a very high-stakes standoff that we've seen play out many, many times on Capitol Hill, where we have seen the minority party really try to exert their leverage to get key policy concessions. And up here on Capitol Hill, as Kaitlan said, there is no end in sight. Both sides are digging in.
COATES: Sunlen Serfaty, thank you so much. I mean, no trust at all, it seems, on either side for one another. I don't know how you get over that.
I want to turn to our panel right now. We've got a great one. Former Democratic congressman, Tom Malinowski, CNN senior political commentator and former Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger, former communications director for Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi, Ashley Etienne, and former senior Trump campaign advisor, Bryan Lanza.
There is so much to unpack, especially if we're talking about the absence of trust. I don't know how you negotiate anything if neither side thinks the other person has any credibility whatsoever.
But, congressman, I mean, President Trump says a lot of good, a lot of good can come down from shutdowns. You were in Congress a long time. Did -- did good come out of the last standoff?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER ILLINOIS REPRESENTATIVE: No. I -- you know what? I'm so excited to be in the middle of a shutdown. I just so miss this. I so miss Congress and all the drama.
COATES: We get it. We get it. KINZINGER: No. Listen. Um, no. I mean, nothing good comes of it, right? It destroys people's faith in government. Everybody will end up getting paid, even non-essential. But if they skip a paycheck --
COATES: Exact pay (ph).
KINZINGER: Yeah, it's paid back. But if they skip a paycheck, that -- you know, that -- that hurts a lot of people. But I do think the Democrats have a point in that Republicans have broken Democratic trust and Democratic faith. They've negotiated things. The rescission packages end up getting passed, where they pull the funding back after making a deal with Democrats. And I think, right now, they're just -- they're -- they're -- this is going to end up being just a battle of wills. It's going to be force on force.
COATES: You were in Congress with Speaker Pelosi during the last actual iteration of the shutdown. Talk to me how that happened and how it works if there is no trust in the background. There's no behind the scenes maneuvering because I don't believe you.
ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: Yeah, I mean, trust is a real factor. But I think the difference between when we won the shutdown battle under Pelosi, you remember that Oval Office meeting where she got Donald Trump to admit that he was going to shut down the government.
So, two things are different. One is now you've got a president and Republican Party that's willing to shoot the hostage. So, it's not an issue of just trust. It is the fact that they could care less, could care less about prices going up, could care less about inflation, could care less about millions of people losing their health care, could lay us about the healthcare premiums going up 75%. The last time we had that shutdown, it cost the American people $11 billion. This is not without cost for the American people.
I would say the second factor that makes this situation different than the previous one is, you know, I remember when we were 30 days in and I went to the speaker and I said, Madam Speaker, you've got to do something about this, this is too much pressure on the American people. I mean, my kid was out of school because she was in a federal daycare. She said, listen, dead to my face, you've got to have a stomach for this job.
COATES: Hmm.
ETIENNE: And she's like, we're going to wait him out. And we waited Donald Trump out. And he caved. We won the battle. But the difference is I don't think Democratic leadership right now has that kind of stomach. So, that's -- I would say that's what's making this a different situation.
COATES: Well, I mean, politicians can have all the stomach they want. But if I'm trying to feed my kids and their stomach is empty, I don't really care how much you have a stomach if you're in Congress. So, where's the average American and the voter who are looking at this and saying, yeah, I might get back pay? But, to your point, if you're living paycheck to paycheck, is that enough for Democrats to be able to persuade voters that they're not in trouble, they're not the ones who have done this?
TOM MALINOWSKI, FORMER NEW JERSEY REPRESENTATIVE: Remember, millions of Americans, middle class Americans, depend on the Affordable Care Act.
COATES: Yes.
MALINOWSKI: And what's really at stake -- I'm sure we'll talk about the politics. Who's going to win, who's going to lose, who's going to get blamed. What's really at stake for the largest number of Americans is whether their health insurance premiums are going to double --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
MALINOWSKI: -- on December 31st.
COATES: Explain that one point, though, because I think this is a really important point for the audience to understand, because this is where Republicans and Democrats differ on the timing of when to address that very point. Republicans are saying, we're at the end of the year. And Democrats are saying, why not now?
MALINOWSKI: Why not yesterday? Why -- why -- why didn't they do it when they passed their big beautiful bill? That would have been a perfect opportunity.
[23:10:00]
They have the votes for that. Democrats actually would have been happy with it. The American people would have been happy with it. They didn't do it. They could have done it any day between that bill and today. They could put something on the floor right now and say to the Democrats, pass the government funding bill, and the next day, we will pass this bill to extend the Obamacare subsidies. But they're not doing that.
So, this is the only leverage Democrats have to prevent a massive increase in costs for millions and millions of middle-class people. For a family of four making $80,000 a year, this is a hit of about $3,000 to $5,000 next year. So, you know, that's real life. That's not the, you know, horse race stuff.
COATES: Well, there's real life you're talking about. Then there's the A.I. life that the president is talking about. You know I'm going to this. You knew it was coming, Bryan. I mean, while people are talking about real life and, of course, what's happening in the shutdown, I did hear our own Kaitlan Collins's report that the president is going to be staying up late --
BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN: He's probably watching.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: Hello. Welcome to D.C.
ETIENNE: You're here (ph).
COATES: But let me ask you, Bryan. I mean, does the president of the United States have the willingness to take this seriously enough, to put the necessary pressure to stop a shutdown? I mean, he is the literal head of the government.
LANZA: Yeah. Listen, the shutdown is happening. I mean, we're -- we're less than 45 minutes away. I suspect, by now, you know, the Democrats and Republicans, they've had the choice to negotiate this. They chose not to.
Republican House members passed a clean C.R. I mean, you tell me the last time Republican members passed a clean C.R. It has been a long time. So, they've done their job. The House has done a job. Now, they're waiting for the Democrats on the Senate to do their job. They have the votes. This is now a bipartisan bill. You had Democrats who voted in support of this budget. You had three Democrats. So, now, the impediment is just a few Democrats on the Democratic side.
Schumer, most likely, because of politics, he knows he can't move forward or something. He has to confront Trump because he's scared of his left. He's scared of any potential primary challenge in two years from now.
And that's why we're in this predicament. We're not in this predicament because Republicans want to take healthcare away from, you know, from the population. We're only in this predicament because Chuck Schumer doesn't have the courage to tell his caucus and the far- left --
ETIENNE: If you guys could have passed those appropriations bill, we wouldn't be here right now.
LANZA: But that's why we're here.
ETIENNE: You guys can't --
MALINOWSKI: -- going to be taken away, right?
LANZA: Health care has the ability to be negotiated. They can come to the table and have this conversation. But they're not going to do it as a hostage-taking. It's, like, we'll only do this if you're going to do this. The last time I checked, the party that pushes policy changes during these budget negotiations usually lose. And the reason they lose is because the voters aren't with them, or else, they would have won the election to change the policy.
COATES: What do you say, congressman?
KINZINGER: Well, look, I think one of the things that is disingenuous in this is the idea that if we just pass this, there's going to be more time to negotiate. And like I said, I've been in the middle of these. It's always a case. But they -- they -- as you mentioned, they could have passed it then. But one of the things they're up against is -- again, I'm talking about that broken trust. You think about at the very beginning of the year, DOGE comes in, and basically, unilateral makes decision what government is going to look like. And that was upheld. Democrats did not fight on that continuing resolution.
Remember, Schumer immediately caved, and it created a problem in his base. And so, he has to show that he's willing to fight. Hakeem Jeffries has to show that he's willing to fight.
But the problem is, three months ago, the Democratic leaders, if I was just like agnostically advising them, they should have been making the case. We don't control any aspect of government. If you need our help, you know, we're here to help, but it's obviously going to cost you. But, otherwise, you got complete control of government. Good job. They did not build that case.
COATES: They're talking reversing that, though, has been, yes, but this is Schumer's, but this is a Biden budget. That has been the talking point they've responded with to suggest that they have grandfathered in this chaos.
KINZINGER: Yeah. I mean, that's what they're going to argue. And -- but they -- look at what they did with DOGE. Look what they did with rescissions. They've made -- if they really don't like this budget, they should pass appropriations bills. They should pass continued resolution. But the thing I know is that it is impossible even within the GOP to get them to agree on anything --
ETIENNE: Right.
KINZINGER: -- because there's always these interparty --
ETIENNE: Absolutely right. Republicans, if we go all the way back, I mean, they had every opportunity to bills (ph), and we wouldn't be scrambling at the eleventh-hour to get this -- to get a C.R. passed.
But here's the thing, I think, shouldn't be lost in this -- in this whole debate. And it is the fact that I don't believe that Donald Trump is going to cave in this situation. I'm not sure what the out is. Every time I talk to my progressive friends, they're, like, shut it down. I tell them, well, you gave it out five moves. Game it out five moves. There's no way you can make this. There's no way -- you're going to have to vote for something at some point.
COATES: Bryan is in total --
ETIENNE: Yeah. I don't -- My point is, like, I don't -- I think -- I think J.D. Vance gave them out when he came out of the Oval Office meeting, and he said, listen, we're willing to negotiate, but you can't negotiate with a gun to my head, right? They should have taken him up on that offer which, of course --
COATES: And --
ETIENNE: -- hold him accountable to it. COATES: It was the opposite of what he said previously.
[23:15:01]
ETIENNE: There is no -- listen, you can't -- you can't shut the government down for messaging purposes, and you can't shut the government down because you're afraid of your base. That's not how it works. The consequences are way too high. So, they should have taken -- in my advice, taken J.D. Vance out, and then hold him -- hold him accountable to what he said --
KINZINGER: You know what they should have done? They should have just said, release the Epstein files, we'll vote for the clean C.R. That's something that all Americans agree on.
ETIENNE: Yeah, and they can do it.
KINZINGER: Donald Trump could do that today.
ETIENNE: Trump can do it.
KINZINGER: He could release the Epstein files right now. If he's watching, you can release them right now.
ETIENNE: He's not going to --
KINZINGER: That should have been something.
COATES: Well --
KINZINGER: That would have been an easy one.
COATES: Let me ask you, Malinowski, on this point because, as you know, Schumer was criticized for his decision last time to essentially do the C.R. because he said, look, the consequences could be very dire. Similar promises were being made then as they are now, specifically, that the -- Russ Vought, who is the president's budget director, talking about giving the green light on changes for personnel. The president talking about mass layoffs. We already know about DOGE. Is that really the fear of Democrats right now in Congress?
MALINOWSKI: Well, I was critical of Schumer.
COATES: I remember.
MALINOWSKI: I'm not a Democrat (ph). I'm just -- you know, I'm a simple guy. I like the Constitution of the United States. I believe the Congress --
COATES: Details, details.
MALINOWSKI: -- the Congress has the power of the purse. And look, if I were still in the House, as moderate Democrat in the House, I would acknowledge the Republicans won the election. If they put a budget forward that was 90% Republican budget priorities and we took care of the health care deal, I would vote for it to keep the government open, but not if the president of the United States is telling me, Tom, I'm going to ignore the budget that you passed.
I'm going -- if you, you know, think -- imagine if it was a progressive president, a left-wing president who didn't want a military. The Congress passes a budget that funds 100 ships for the Navy. And the Democratic president says, no, I'm just not going to spend that money. In fact, I'm going to send all our sailors home without pay because I don't think we should have a Navy.
That's what this is about. This is about whether we are going to write Article 1 of the Constitution out of the Constitution and surrender the most important check the Congress of the United States has on presidential authority. There's no way I would vote for a budget without assurances that the president will respect it.
COATES: This is not in a vacuum. This has been building up in all facets. I want everyone to stand by. We have a lot more to talk about. There's much more ahead tonight as we are now what? Under 40 minutes away from the government shutdown of the United States of America. And one of the big questions remain, will Democrats stay united? Well, Kaitlan is going to speak with Senator Jeff Merkley on that and more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're now less than an hour away from the government shutting down. It is certainly headed forward as Speaker Mike Johnson called it inevitable. For the most part tonight, Democrats have been standing united, refusing to drop their demands when it comes to healthcare in terms of keeping the government open. That's different from the last time that Congress kicked the can down the road back in March. That was when several Democrats, including the minority leader, Chuck Schumer, supported that Republican-led temporary funding bill.
Joining me now tonight is Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon who is the ranking member of the Senate Budget Committee. Very importantly, I should note here tonight, you voted no on the bill tonight. Some of your Republican or some of your Democratic colleagues crossed over and voted yes because Senator Catherine Cortez of -- of -- of Nevada said basically that it's not worth shutting the government down in terms of the health care fight. Why did you feel differently?
SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-OR): Well, there are two big principles at stake. The first is who's going to fight for Americans' health care. Republicans passed a bill that's devastating. You will see across the country a 75% or so increase in the premiums that people are having to pay on the exchange for health care. In some cases, in Oregon, it will be $8,000 to $25,000 more per family. And a lot of families won't be able to afford health care. That means -- what happens? They don't have health care, they don't go to the doctor early, now they're in emergency, maybe that initial tumor has grown to a much larger one, and maybe it's much more expensive to be treated in the emergency room. And if you can't pay the bill, then the clinics and hospitals receive much less revenue. Especially in rural areas, that means they may shut down.
So, who's going to fight for health care for Americans? It's the Democrats saying what was passed was devastating, and we're not going to allow it to happen.
There's a second principle at work here, and that's that laws are not suggestions. The Trump administration has been treating the spending laws as just a suggestion. Well, we aren't going to actually disperse the funds the law says we will disperse because we don't like that program. That's like a line-item veto. The Supreme Court has said a line-item veto is unconstitutional because the Constitution assigns the power of the purse to Congress and it's the president's job to execute once that law is in place. So, we're really defending the Constitution and defending health care.
COLLINS: Senator Schumer is leading this fight. And back in March when this happened, he faced a lot of blowback from some of your colleagues, from a lot of your colleagues over how he handled that. Back then, he said that the continuing resolution was bad, but he said a shutdown would be 15 or 20 times worse. Those are comments that are being regurgitated by the White House tonight arguments. Uh, why was it correct then that a shutdown would be worse than passing this and that's not the argument now?
[23:24:58]
MERKLEY: You know, what we have seen in the time between March 15th, beware the Ides of March, said Shakespeare in one of his plays. And now is a continuous stream of constitutional violations. And what we have also seen is --
COLLINS: So, it's their behavior that has changed --
MERKLEY: Their behavior but also passage of the so-called big beautiful bill, which hadn't been passed by March 15. So, here we have this bill, which is a 'families lose, billionaires win' bill. And we have a different vision for America. It's a 'families win and billionaires pay their fair share' or 'families thrive and billionaires pay their fair share.' That's a much better vision.
And the two things we're asking for are so reasonable. Fix this healthcare nightmare you created with what we call, you know, the 'big ugly betrayal' of a bill. And second of all, honor the law as written and disperse the funds when we -- when we reach an agreement.
COLLINS: Can I ask you, because one thing that has been argued here is that the subsidies don't expire until the end of December, so you could continue -- keep the government open and continue arguing, negotiating that with Republicans. Is that something that you would be willing to support?
MERKLEY: Well, I think that you're referring to the subsidies that are tax credits, that help people buy insurance on the exchange, right? But in November, when people are signing up for the next year, the price is going to be set for what they're going to pay. So, those prices are going to go up if we don't fix this now.
COLLINS: And can I ask you about the argument that we heard from the president today, a speech he delivered to lot of military leaders and generals that they had gathered here on short notice at Quantico? The president basically said that -- that Democratic cities could be training grounds for the military for future wars. Obviously, in your state, we have seen the president threatening to send federal troops into Portland. I just want everyone to listen to what the president had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I told Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard, but military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What's your reaction to what you heard from the president today?
MERKLEY: I'm horrified. First, last Thursday, he said, I'm going to send troops to Portland, Oregon. We're going to tell them to use the full force of the law. And, well, we're going to show them, if you will. And it was like, whoa, well, we don't have a rebellion in Oregon. We don't have an invasion. Those are the two provisions of Title 10 that allow the military forces to be sent.
I was down outside the ICE building twice this weekend. I had saw three women holding up signs with flowers on them. I mean, we're talking about, you know, Portland Nice (ph) right here. And there has been a few incidents with some -- some protesters over the last three months, but nothing outside ordinary policing outside a busy bar, if you will.
And so, this creation, this fiction that he has created, is about sending in troops and creating a conflict. And my message to people in Portland was don't take the bait. The president wants to create a riot, and with that riot, he will use it as an excuse to increase his authoritarian power.
But what we heard today was even scarier. What we heard today was, hey, generals, you don't like what I'm saying, leave, although we will take probably away your -- your position. And, by the way, some of you were going to be the generals who go out in the field to execute us sending troops to the cities and using those cities as a training ground. A training ground for what?
And you start to hear the concern that if this president is headed towards the next election and he's trying to declare an emergency and people protest in the streets, he's going to have the troops ready to go out and quell that so-called rebellion. That's not a rebellion. That's freedom of assembly. That's freedom of speech. That's freedom of protest. So, we have an authoritarian president who's flexing the early stages of military control in our cities.
The reason we have a law that has endured for 150 years to keep the military out of our cities is our founders were terrified of a president using the power of the military against his own people. That fear is right. And so, now, we're seeing a president testing the boundaries of what he can do to use military inside the United States, and we should be an absolute hell no, this is unacceptable.
COLLINS: Senator Jeff Merkley, thank you for your time tonight.
MERKLEY: Thank you.
COLLINS: Laura?
COATES: So much on my head tonight. Kaitlan, we are looking at the real- life consequences once the clock strikes midnight. Plus, this idea of get on board or resign. Secretary Pete Hegseth's message tonight to his top generals and the new demands that he laid out during that military pep rally TED talk today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: As I've said before and will say again, we are done with that shit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: We are now less than 30 minutes to go until a government shutdown. We'll have much more on that in just a moment. But first, we have got to talk about that speech from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, the one where he stood before hundreds of the nation's top generals, admirals. Why? To outline his vision to completely root out wokeness in the military. And his message to the generals? Either get on board or resign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: Simply put, if you do not meet the male level physical standards for combat positions, cannot pass a PT test or don't want to shave and look professional, it's time for a new position or a new profession.
[23:35:07]
No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. No more climate change worship. No more division, distraction or gender delusions. No more debris. As I've said before and will say again, we are done with that shit. It's tiring to look out at combat formations or really any formation
and see fat troops. Likewise, it's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: My panel is back with me. Congressman Kinzinger, you served in the Air Force --
KINZINGER: Uh-hmm.
COATES: -- you flew missions as well in Iraq and Afghanistan. He is more than suggesting that there is a correlation between wokeness or identity months and beyond and military readiness. But is this really about readiness or is this about the politics or performative appearances?
KINZINGER: Yeah. So, first off, there -- there is a point to the fact that like the military got overbearing on doing like computer-based training on every little issue. And so, he took an issue that soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines feel serious about, but he has blown it up.
You know, it's like the guys that call themselves alpha males. They're actually the ones that are the least confident in themselves. They're trying to like puff themselves up to look big. That's what he's doing here.
And he's focusing on things that have nothing to do with war fighting like he likes to use all the time. Grooming standards have nothing to do with war fighting. You know, think like -- rather, the PT test even really doesn't because 99% of military folks are not on the front lines running. Now, they're operating computers or they're flying airplanes or they're fueling airplanes.
So, what you saw in him is a speech that should have been given to a freshman class at West Point because you want to motivate them and not the country's most senior generals. He wasn't speaking to the generals. He was speaking to Donald Trump to impress him and to Americans. That's what that was.
COATES: If he were, he would have had a private conversation with them. If that what is his intention --
KINZINGER: It could have been email. It could have been email.
COATES: Well, I'm with you. Any meeting that could have been an email, you've lost me. But let me talk about this with you, Ashley, because he talked about returning his phrase to the highest male standard only. And one of reasons that all combat roles, as you know, were open to him back in 2015 was because there was a real struggle with recruitment. And, of course, they were capable. That's the big part about it. But listen to what Hegseth said about women in combat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HEGSETH: This is not about preventing women from serving. We are -- we very much value the impact of female troops. Our female officers and NCOs are the absolute best in the world. But when it comes to any job that requires physical power to perform in combat, those physical standards must be high and gender neutral. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: What is what it is?
ETIENNE: You know, it's so funny because we were laughing off set. We were recalling a video of Pete Hegseth not being able to do any pull ups. And now, he's lecturing people about their own body -- body size, body shaming folks.
But here's the thing that I do appreciate about Republicans that shouldn't be lost, is he's -- every word is messaging. It's not just a message to Donald Trump. It is a message to those Black and brown men, young men that we're bleeding as a Democratic Party. This is what masculinity looks like. This is the Republican Party.
I mean, I do appreciate the fact that every word that he's saying is intentional. He's talking about women, DEI, men wearing skirts. All of these things are messaging to their base, but also more importantly, the base that we're losing as a Democratic Party.
I looked at Mr. Schumer's statement today. You know what they're talking about as it relates to this particular meeting? It cost the American taxpayers $6 million. Who gives a damn?
I mean, the reality is this is like about consolidating power. This is about intimidating our military. That's what this meeting is about. And Hegseth made it a campaign pitch for Donald Trump and to take away our base voters, these young men that are losing confidence in the Democratic Party that's saying they're more about trans than they are about me.
COATES: Bryan, I mean, it sounds like mission accomplished if messaging is as she says.
LANZA: Yeah. Listen, I think Pete, you know, the secretary's intention is definitely recruitment, and he's using the words that are going to appeal to young men, whether they're Democrats, Republicans or independents, with respect to recruitment.
I think the frustration that Pete has set in the past is, and other folks have said with recruitment, it has been all the -- all the additional stuff. All the additional, you know, isms or correctness he had to put in the military has actually caused recruitment to go down.
So, he has taken the approach of let's eliminate all those things, let's get back to the basics, let's talk about -- you know, let him focus on the recruitment side.
[23:40:04]
And the recruits want to hear this. You've seen that and reflected the numbers. I think recruitment is a good thing. It's a critical thing for our security. I do think the modern army roles have changed. I think drones allow women to be operators. I don't know whether they belong in military. I'm not a general to make that decision. But I think the modern military is going to be more inclusive because it is less frontline battles and more, you know, in front of a screen.
COATES: Well, let me ask you. I mean, speaking of if the rules have changed, one thing that Secretary Hegseth talked about was the stupid rules of engagement, which I'm sure gave many people pause as to what that really entailed. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: We fight to win. We unleash overwhelming and punishing violence on the enemy. We also don't fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our war fighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt, and kill the enemies of our country. No more politically-correct and overbearing rules of engagement. Just common sense, maximum lethality, and authority for war fighters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Do these rules that he seems to be suggesting, congressman, do these put our troops at greater risk or does it help the lethality of the United States?
MALINOWSKI: Rules protect our troops. I mean, you know, we had -- we had this debate when John McCain and Republicans made sure after 9/11 that we had rules against torturing captives.
And there were people like Pete Hegseth, who were apoplectic that the hands of the operators were tied, that they couldn't commit war crimes. And he has been campaigning basically to fire the JAGs, fire the lawyers who are there to make sure that our operators play by those rules. He has defended basically abuse of detainees. He said that maximum lethality means none of these rules that protect civilians in combat.
And, again, it protects our troops because if we're allowed do those things to the enemy, the enemy is allowed to do those things to us. And most professional soldiers I know believe that what makes the United States Military different and better, what gives our troops the morale to fight for this country, is that we stand for something larger than just killing the enemy.
KINZINGER: I think he has -- so the secretary has a point in saying that in some cases, there was some kind of insane rules of engagement. Like in Afghanistan, at one point, it became if somebody picked up a weapon, you could shoot them. And then it was only if they pick up a weapon and then point at you, could you shoot them. So that kind of stuff.
But that's not something you have to go on T.V. and say we're getting rid of rules of engagement. That actually sends a very chilling message. All you do, if you're secretary and you believe that some of the rules of engagement were too tight, is you loosen them. You don't have to go out and brag about it because it sends a message.
COATES: To who?
KINZINGER: To the American people and to our enemies, honestly. I mean, this is just before the president gets up there and talks about, in essence, waging war on the American people. You put the two together, it can be chilling. And if we're talking about messaging and doing messaging well, certainly, that was a miss, I think.
COATES: Hope he clarifies exactly what he meant. Thank you so much, everyone. Up next, the latest reporting out of the White House as President Trump gets ready to deal with his third government shutdown. That's now just what? Twenty minutes away? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In just a couple of minutes, the federal government is going to officially shut down. The question is how will it end and what it would take to make a deal with the White House and congressional leaders to reopen it, and whether or not the White House even wants that deal in the immediate future.
My White House insiders are here, including Semafor's White House correspondent Shelby Talcott and CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny.
And Jeff, obviously, this is not totally unfamiliar territory for President Trump. He presided over the largest shutdown, longest shutdown, 35 days in his first term. It is quite something to see how the White House is approaching it this time, playing loops of Democrats talking in the briefing room about why a shutdown is damaging. The President is saying today -- he believes some good can come out of a government shutdown.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I mean from President Trump's view and certainly from the view of his administration like the OMB director, Russ Vought, good can come from it because they can continue to pare down the government.
What I am struck by, President Trump clearly, thinking back to his first term, didn't really know what a shutdown would look like, didn't know how it would play out necessarily in the press. I think, this time, he does, and he's comfortable with it.
However, I'm struck by how different things are here on Capitol Hill. A, it's a ghost town tonight where like 15 minutes before, we know the House has not been in. The Senate, of course, voted hours earlier. But the makeup of the Senate is so different. And as we think about -- we know a shutdown will happen. Now, we do not know how they will get out of it.
And that is where the trouble begins for Democrats and perhaps for the White House as well because there are not as many Senate Democrats who are willing to vote with Republicans because all of those Senate Democrats have been defeated.
When you think back to 2019, there were Democrats from West Virginia, from Montana, from North Dakota, moderate democrats. Those do not exist. So, that is why getting out of this shutdown is complicated here, and that's also a complication for the White House.
COLLINS: Yeah. The Jon Testers, the Joe Manchins are gone. I think it was Senator Bernie Moreno, Shelby, who was saying that this could go on for months, potentially. I don't know if that's the case but -- I mean, that's kind of the key point here. We don't really know what this could look like or who could bear the blame for this.
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Right. And both sides are kind of saying openly it's whoever blinks first here. And nobody, so far, is willing to blink.
[23:49:57]
When I talk to White House officials, they're pretty staunch in the idea that this is going to be a sort of Democratic blame shut down. When I talk to Democrats, they're saying the exact opposite.
But the fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, I think that the president would have to sort of want to budge on some of these healthcare things. And when I talk to White House officials, that's not the case. They're saying any indication or any suggestion that he is willing to make a deal with Democrats is just Democratic wish casting at this point. They're staying firm.
COATES: Yeah, but we did hear from Vice President J.D. Vance coming out of that meeting yesterday, saying some of the things that the Democrats were proposing in that he found to be reasonable and basically was saying let's negotiate on that. I do think there was a question of whether or not, on the Obamacare subsidies, for example, whether they could find common ground on that.
ZELENY: Look, it's hard for me to imagine them finding common ground in this moment. And what's happening next is there's going to be another vote tomorrow in the Senate. We'll see if any other Democrats join along. There were basically three who voted with Republicans.
But for the White House in terms of getting out of this, I can't really imagine the president negotiating on the Obamacare subsidies. That has been something that has been a kind of anathema to how we used to perceive.
But I do think health care as an issue. The White House is very attuned to this. Republicans are very attuned to this. That is why they do not want this to go considerably longer because, say goes for a month or a couple months, at that point, the health care bills, the premiums would be arriving in mailboxes. That is really going to drill home to the American people, what this shutdown is about. So never mind the actual day-to-day impact. It's really going to drive home that this is about health care funding.
COLLINS: And we're talking about the substance here and what's at the heart of this health care, the fight that Democrats believe is worth fighting. The president, though, keeps posting these videos, Shelby, including -- he posted one last night. It showed Hakeem Jeffries with a sombrero on as they were speaking to reporters. They just posted this tonight. Obviously, this isn't real, for anyone who needs clarification.
But I think that -- you know, now, we have seen the comments coming from Democrats, from Hakeem Jeffries where he's being asked about this because they're posting these videos and taking it to a personal level where Hakeem Jeffries is now talking about the negotiations in just clean, substantive terms. It's personal now --
TALCOTT: Yeah.
COLLINS: -- because of what the president is posting.
TALCOTT: And it's kind of a distraction at the end of the day, right? Hakeem Jeffries does not want to be talking about these memes that the president is posting. But it also, I think, goes back to sort of how this administration and really how the campaign trail has operated, which is oftentimes going to these more personal levels and oftentimes going to these sorts of extremes that maybe you didn't see 10 or 12 years ago this administration is willing to go there.
And I do think that it's going to make it more difficult, potentially, to negotiate, right? Because why would Democrats want to negotiate when they see the White House as potentially sort of laughing this all off.
COLLINS: Yeah. Shelby Talcott, Jeff Zeleny, we will be watching very closely. We are now just seven and a half minutes away from the officials starting this shutdown and that lapse of government funding. Tom Foreman is standing by to explain what exactly happens when the clock strikes midnight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)]
[23:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Time waits for no one. We are just minutes away from the midnight deadline to avert a government shutdown. And many of you might be asking, what exactly would a shutdown mean for me? Well, CNN's Tom Foreman is here to walk us through what stops and what keeps running. So, Tom, what can we expect?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, this is where the rubber really hits the road on this for just normal folks out there. What keeps running? Social Security checks will go out. Medicare, Medicaid payments going out. Veteran services will continue. Unemployment benefits will continue. The National Weather Service will continue doing forecasts for those big storms churning out there. And the Department of Homeland Security, Border Patrol, ICE, all of that will go on a big priority for the administration. That continues.
But what might be affected here as we move on? Air travel, even though federal airline, air traffic control, that will all be in places. People have to work. They're considered essential. Like a lot of workers, many of them will not be paid. It'll be a well when it's all done. We'll catch up. But you're not being paid for now. That has caused disruptions before. Delayed flights, cancelled flights, long lines, people trying to take fall vacations.
By the way, they may not want to take those vacations anyway because national parks, monuments and museums, including the Smithsonian, including maybe the Statue of Liberty, places like that, more than 400 places, could all be entirely shut down by this or maybe open but with very limited services. And millions of dollars lost, that would be coming into the government by people using them normally.
Government services, visas, passports could be very much slowed down. Uh, delay in food and drug inspections and research, all sorts of things like that, these could all be slowed down.
I keep saying, Laura, could be because this administration has been far from state of the art in terms of explaining what will happen. They've allowed it to be sort of agency by agency, department by department. Journalists have been scrambling. Normally, there's a central clearinghouse of information. They haven't done that, Laura.
COATES: That piecemeal makes the information gathering very difficult and people can't know what's going to happen. But we have seen and we've been through shutdowns before, right, Tom? But by all accounts, this one could be dramatically different. Can you explain why?
FOREMAN: Yeah, it absolutely could be because of this administration, really. You mentioned some of it earlier. We don't know when it's going to be over. We know that there are going to be somewhere this year around 200,000 fewer federal workers, potential loss of expertise. We don't know who's gone from the government, who might know how to make this work, who may not be there right now. And as I noted before, a lack of clear information.
[23:59:58]
What we do know is that slightly less than one out of every 50 Americans, their job is tied to the federal government. And we know that everybody in this country, whether they think they do or not, relies upon federal services, and they may not be there starting in just moments, Laura.
COATES: Two hundred thousand less employees. Tom Foreman, thank you.
FOREMAN: Welcome.
