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Laura Coates Live

FBI Busts Sprawling Gambling Schemes Tied to NBA Stars and Mafia; Trump Pardons Crypto Empire Founder; Protester Handcuffed for Playing Darth Vader Song Sues. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired October 23, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: This Sunday, discover the diverse breads that bonds Sao Paulo. A new episode of CNN Original Series, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread," airs this Sunday night at 9 p.m. right here on CNN.

And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, insider bets and illegal gambling rock the NBA. Now, three big names are facing charges. But is it a crisis of the league's own making? Plus, Trump's big party. The president gives a pass to a crypto king convicted of money laundering, whose platform posts Trump's own cryptocurrency. And he was handcuffed for playing Darth Vader's theme while protesting the National Guard in Washington, D.C. And now, he's suing. He'll be here tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

You know, when the NBA season started this week, I'm sure they hope we'd be talking about Cooper Flagg's debut or OKC back to defend their title or Wembanyama's 40-point game. Nope. All eyes had moved away from the NBA and on to the FBI and the EDNY prosecutor's office. Nothing but bet. Royal Flash. These aren't plays. They're the subject of federal indictments, and they have rocked the sports community, let alone the league. It's dragging in big names, organized crime families, and accusations of insider bets.

Now, these are the familiar faces who have been charged: Miami Heat guard Terry Rozier, Portland Trail Blazers head coach, Hall of Famer, I might add, Chauncey Billups, and former player and coach, Damon Jones. Just three of the 34 people presumed innocent and across two indictments who have been arrested.

The first, old school. Talking about poker games. Not the legal kind. The kind that Hollywood has you probably imagining. Forbidden gambling, smoky back rooms, the mob. Well, that's also literally what the indictment is talking about. The mafia. You've got rigged card shuffling machines that are built to read the cards in the deck. You've got x-ray poker tables able to actually see the cards when they're faced down. Members of several New York crime families and the indictment alleges they used violence, they used threats, they extorted, they collected. We'll talk more about the alleged plot involving Chauncey Billups and Damon Jones in just a moment. But that second indictment, that'll have you leaning in. The one that ensnared Terry Rozier and Damon Jones. It's new school, they say. We're talking an alleged scheme to take advantage of online betting companies. Insider information shared before tip-off. It cuts straight to the integrity of NBA games.

Now, the indictment says that before a game in March of 2023, Rozier tipped off a friend that he planned to leave the game early due to what? An injury. That friend then sold the information to others. They made a bunch of wagers totaling some 200,000 bucks. And then prosecutors say this happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Rozier exited the game after just nine minutes, and those bets paid out, generating tens of thousands of dollars in profit. The proceeds were later delivered to his home, where the group counted their cash.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: And another example, the indictment lays out how Damon Jones tech (ph) the co-conspirator before a game in February of 2023. Get a big bet on Milwaukee tonight before the information is out. Player 3 is out tonight. Bet enough so Djones can eat to now. Guess who's player 3? Apparently, LeBron James. And to be clear, King James is not accused of any wrongdoing or any involvement in this whatsoever.

But that text from Jones, like so much of this story, it points to something bigger. Not just a few guys gambling on the side. It's a snapshot of a league living inside a Casino economy because here's the elephant in the room. If you've been paying at all any attention whatsoever to sports lately, well, you've seen the commercials, the offers, the ads, and you've seen it everywhere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALLEN IVERSON, FORMER PROFESSIONAL BASKEBALL PLAYER: This instant offer is kind of like my crossover. Just place your bet. And it's money. Oh, he did.

[23:04:57]

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Bet all the stars with all your friends and tell them that they get three months of NBA League pass on us with any $5 bet. Only on FanDuel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: The world of sports and sports betting, it exploded over the last eight years. You've seen it. Take a look. This is the research that's so fascinating to me. In 2018, a little under $7 billion in total sports wagers. Last year, $150 billion. And if you're wondering why it surged after, say, 2018, well, the Supreme Court struck down a law that banned most states from sports betting, which means the gates opened. It doesn't take a Washington wizard to figure out what that meant, does it? It00 was money to be made, pockets to be lined.

We looked up, by the way, just how much money we are talking about. And here's what we found. A 2018 projection estimated the NBA would gain $585 million annually, annually, through legal sports betting. A $160 million of that through direct gaming-related revenue. The rest through increased fan engagement.

And guess what the NBA expected to earn in direct gaming-related revenue last season? Well, one ESPN analyst put it at, wait for it, $167 million, right on target. And when there's that much betting money floating around the pool, I mean, it's hard to ignore. NBA players, past and present, says that it's hard to block out the noise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAYSON TATUM, NBA PLAYER: Fans yell (bleep) all the time. Shoot one more three, get one more rebound, get 25 before the half is over.

JEFF TEAGUE, FORMER NBA PLAYER: It's the problem with sports betting, right? NBA put it in there. The NBA put it in the game where you can actually bet. If you got any type of addiction or a problem with gambling, bro, you're going to be itching at that. I play in the league. I know I ain't playing tonight. Get the under on myself. Easy thou.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I want to turn to a sports insider with a wealth of information on the inner workings of the NBA. I'm talking about Fox Sports analyst Rachel Nichols, who has covered the league for 20 years. You have seen the way that betting has come to play. Many thought this was a risk. And here we are with this huge indictment. Earth shattering claims, especially the ones against Rozier and Jones for exploiting insider information. This is a huge moment for the NBA.

RACHEL NICHOLS, ANALYST, FOX SPORTS: Yeah. I mean, they're the second and third. Jontay Porter, who played for the Toronto Raptors, has already pled guilty. He has already pled guilty. He's awaiting sentencing for doing just what Rozier and Jones are accused of. So, this train has already left the station, Laura. And I have to tell you, when Jeff Teague, current NBA player, says, oh, there's betting everywhere, it is everywhere. I've done ads for DraftKings. LeBron James has done ads for DraftKings.

In fact, ESPN, when they were reporting this story this morning, they're having programming. People talking just like you and me, talking about this scandal on the press conference the FBI was giving. And underneath them, on the ticker, was an ad for ESPN bet, which is ESPN's own sports book that they have because they are in bed with all of these other leagues and sort of, you know, this betting culture. So, it is literally everywhere.

And the irony is that, for a long time, leagues were against sports gambling and against legalized gambling. But you just put up all of those dollar figures. Shockingly, Laura, they just became -- they became for it somewhere along the way. Who knows why? COATES: Funny how capitalism enters into the equation. But I will say, I mean, there's betting, right? There are legal betting and ads and people wanting to participate as fans. Fine. Do what you want to do. Then there's players --

NICHOLS: Uh-hmm.

COATES: -- with insider information --

NICHOLS: Yeah.

COATES: -- who are saying, hey, this person might not be playing or is not playing or this injury might be happening or not real. I mean, that's a whole different ball game. We are talking about Wall Street, right? You've got trading. Fine. You got insider trading. Whole different ball game.

NICHOLS: Yep. Absolutely. And the problem, too, is that it's hard to sort out whether players are purposely giving information to sports bookies just for the purpose of insider --

COATES: Right.

NICHOLS: -- trading-type of situations or whether did someone just sort of mention it to a friend, and then the friend decides to go forward with it.

You know, Chauncey Billups, who is indicted in this poker scheme, which is pretty crazy in and of itself, Laura, I had no idea X-ray machines could X-ray cards from underneath a table and tell you what was on the card, maybe I now know how some of these magic tricks work but, you know, he's indicted in that. But also, he is, while not named, he is described in the gambling sports book section of the indictment as well as having told someone that a number of trailblazer players weren't going to play in that night's game, and that someone went and put a bunch of money on that, and indeed, those players did not play.

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Now, he was not indicted for that, which leads us to believe while we're analyzing the case that he just said it and didn't even realize that this person was going to go do it.

So, it just becomes very hard for the NBA to regulate. And the NBA, in fact, investigated Terry Rozier for this exact charge earlier. They cleared him.

COATES: Hmm.

NICHOLS: And that's another thing that the NBA is going to fall under scrutiny for. The NBA will sit there --

COATES: A credibility crisis, perhaps.

NICHOLS: Of course. The NBA will sit here and tell you, we don't have subpoena power, we don't have the same power of investigation that the FBI has. And that's true. But then it becomes a problem. How do you regulate this when it is everywhere around the game?

COATES: And, of course, the NCAA will soon allow student athletes to, and staff, to bet --

NICHOLS: What could go wrong, Laura?

COATES: I'm telling you, the Pandora's box, I bet it's open.

NICHOLS: Yeah.

COATES: Rachel Nichols, thank you so much.

NICHOLS: Thanks so much.

COATES: So, how exactly did the feds piece this together? I mean, this was a years-long sprawling investigation. Well, my next guest knows firsthand what it takes to be able to develop and build a case and coordinate with all of the different entities that you saw at this press conference today. I mean, she was once the chief of the organized crime and gang section of that same district that brought these cases, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of New York. I've got former federal prosecutor Nadia Shihata, who joins me now.

This is extremely significant. The case covers the gamut. You got pro athletes, you got mob families, you got sophisticated tech. How complicated was this, do you think, to try to piece this all together with all these different entities?

NADIA SHIHATA, FORMER CHIEF OF ORGANIZED CRIME AND GANGS SECTION, EDNY: Well, look, while the cases are certainly significant and complicated and piecing together all sorts of different types of evidence, it's clear that they had search warrants on phones, on iCloud accounts. They probably have a cooperating witness who's telling the story from the inside.

COATES: Hmm.

SHIHATA: But at the end of the day, these are relatively conventional cases that the office handles. Um, the gambling case, the poker case, this is like the bread and butter of organized crime. Happens to involve famous NBA players. But these are the types of cases this office in particular brings all the time.

COATES: And because it's more routine, I would assume that the machine that is able to meet a burden of proof or believe it can, you would feel quite confident before they're bringing the case, although there is, obviously, a presumption of innocence for everyone involved.

I'm really intrigued by the cooperator aspect of it as well because the head prosecutor kept saying this is an ongoing investigation, an ongoing investigation. If others have information, that said to me superseding indictment, other co-conspirators, what?

SHIHATA: Yeah. I mean, they are certainly -- certainly when you arrest this many people --

COATES: Someone is going to flip.

SHIHATA: -- you are looking for cooperators. You're hoping and expecting that someone cooperates. They sought detention for a number of the organized crime defendants. That's another pressure point to obtain cooperation. And it at least appears like they probably have cooperators, at least one already in the sports betting case. As your previous guest mentioned, there are people who have already been charged and have not yet been sentenced --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

SHIHATA: -- and their sentences have been delayed a number of times, which it's impossible to know for sure, but suggests to me that there is a probability that an individual in those circumstances may well be cooperating.

COATES: I mean, someone had a lot of information. They talked about the face card. That's the famous player, who someone was going be playing next to you. You had the fish, who was lured into believing that this was an up 'above board' thing. You had the offsite person, who was now talking to the quarterback at the table, so to speak, who would then let people know what the signs were to hustle this person. I mean, that sounds like an insider of some kind talking.

But we should say, I mean, Miami Heat's Terry Rozier's attorney, Jim Trusty, has said in a statement that prosecutors -- quote -- "appear to be taking the word of spectacularly incredible sources rather than relying on actual evidence of wrongdoing." Terry was cleared by the NBA, and these prosecutors revived that non-case.

Well, credibility is always going to be an issue and a factor, but what do you make of the fact that this private entity, the NBA, cleared him of similar allegations? Will that impact this case?

SHIHATA: I don't think so. I mean, there's a huge difference between an internal investigation by a private entity and a federal investigation and prosecution. Here, it's clear that federal law enforcement has significantly more tools at their disposal to uncover these types of crimes, search warrants, subpoena power, not only to obtain documents, text messages and so forth, but to compel people to testify before the grand jury.

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That could be victims in particular who may be reluctant to testify, but who ultimately are forced to. So, um, the fact that a private investigation didn't reach this conclusion, I don't think, is going to have much bearing on the actual criminal trial.

COATES: Well, we will see. It's kind of the infancy for the court of public opinion, but this case has to go through its course for due process to be assured. Nadia Shihata, thank you.

SHIHATA: Thank you. COATES: Normally, we have seen crime families go after one another, protecting their turfs, their interests. But this indictment says they seem to work together in a rare scheme, which then begs the question about the mafia. Is the New York mafia evolving? I'll ask a former captain from the Colombo crime family, next.

The latest installment of what it takes to get a pardon from the president of United States, starring a crypto convict who is no stranger to the Trump family's crypto game.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: There's one thing this sprawling alleged illegal gambling ring revealed. New York's feared and famed crime families reign supreme. Police accused four of the five big families of being in on the scheme.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TISCH: These operatives included capos and multiple soldiers from the Bonanno, Gambino, Lucchese, and Genovese crime families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Bonanno, Gambino, Lucchese, the Genovese. t's like we turn back the clock to the 1970s. You got nicknames like Flappy and "the Wrestler" and Big Bruce littering the indictment pages. Prosecutors say the mob suspects used violence at times, like when they allegedly robbed a man at gunpoint to steal a rigged shuffling machine for their poker games. But investigators say this isn't the mob of the 70s. They've updated

their tactics. They've used modern technology to pull off the alleged crimes.

You know, my next guest knows a lot about the dark world of the mob because he used to be a high-ranking member of the Colombo crime family. Now, he is a motivational speaker and host of the podcast, "Sit Down with Michael Frenzies." He joins me now.

Michael, thank you for being here. I was eager to talk to you because when I read this indictment and heard about it, I wanted somebody with your expertise, and here you are to bring it because these tactics, they sound out of a spy novel. You got poker chip tray analyzers, which is a tray that reads secretly cards with hidden cameras. You got special contact lenses or eyeglasses that could read pre-marked cards. You got an x-ray table that could read cards while they're faced down on the table. How common are these tactics?

MICHAEL FRANZESE, FORMER COLOMBO CRIME FAMILY CAPTAIN: You know, Laura, had we had these tactics back in my day, we were -- we would have engaged and used them also, but we just didn't have them available. You know, I don't think people understand the extent of the business, uh, that the mob engages in with gambling. You know, prohibition was big for us back in the 20s, but it came and went after 10 years. I was involved in the gasoline business to defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. I had an eight-year run at that.

So, things come and go, but gambling is the main business of the mob. They love it, they're involved in it, they're good at it, and they're always going to be. I think, with this indictment, it's the tip of the iceberg.

COATES: The fact that this has been so longstanding, is it equally true that the coordination among the families is the same or is this something new? That they're all be, I guess, aiding one another, it seems?

FRANZESE: You know, it's not normal that all the families work together like this unless there is a scheme like back in the day when they had that whole, you know, cement rigging case. The commission trial was based upon that. A number of families were involved. Normally, it's one family, uh, that gets involved. But if they can work together, if it benefits all for the mill, do it.

You know, I was a little surprised. I was part of the Colombo family. They weren't mentioned and either they weren't involved or, you know, for some reason, they were -- they were able to stay out of it. I don't -- I don't know, but it was interesting to me that all four families were involved.

COATES: Talk to me about this interplay between athletes and the mob and gambling because many people might look at this. And there are -- by the way, there are almost three dozen people who are a part of this, not just people from the NBA in some capacity.

But some might look at the salary of a professional athlete and say, why on earth would they be involved in this? Then there was a moment when the prosecutor talked about that they would use the fact that a player had a gambling debt, and they'd be able to threaten and exploit that as well. Talk to me about this connection.

FRANZESE: Yeah. Let me tell you, back in '94 when I was finishing up my prison sentence, I was recruited by the NBA, Major League Baseball, all the pro leagues, to come and speak to athletes about the dangers of gambling because the FBI knew that I had a number of bookmakers that were working under me. And I agree to do it at the time. I've actually been doing it for the last 30 years, between the pros and the NCAA.

And, you know, these athletes, you got to understand, gambling is an extension of their competitive spirit. They raise the stakes on a competition. It's who they are. So many of them get themselves in trouble. I'll give you an example. Let's take a New York football team. We'll stay away from the NBA at the moment. You have a guy gambling with a bookmaker, a player, right? He gets in trouble for $50, $60,000 dollars.

[23:25:02] The bookmaker is working with me. So, he comes to me, lets me know. Hey, this guy is in trouble for 50,000. Should I cut him off? My answer is, why would you cut him off? It's an entry on a piece of paper. Get him involved, get him in trouble for 250, 300, 400,000, and then bring him to me. And so, these guys are in trouble.

Now, we tell them, listen, you know, you're going to pay -- you don't walk away from a gambling debt. You're a halfback? First time you get next -- first three times you get the ball, you put it on the ground. I'll worry about how I'm going to make my money back because remember, it's always about the spread. It's not about winning or losing.

So, if you have a player working with you because he got in trouble or because he might be greedy and wants to make a few more dollars, then it's all about manipulating the spread.

You know, this player that got -- that, you know, said that he was going to -- you know, he was injured and he wasn't going to play the whole game, he was manipulating the spread. That's all he was doing. So, you don't win by 10. You win by seven, you win by six. Don't lose the game. We don't want you to lose, but help us with the spread. Who's going to know? It happens a lot, Laura. You'd be surprised. It happens a lot.

COATES: The way you describe it is so scary, and -- and it makes me think about the puppet masters that are involved and what's it taking that the House, as they say, always wins. Michael Franzese, invaluable. Thank you.

FRANZESE: You're very welcome. Thank you.

COATES: Breaking news tonight, President Trump says that he is canceling all trade negotiations with Canada, and wait to hear the reason why. Plus, the East Wing demolished to make room for Trump's new expensive planned ballroom, a crypto executive pardoned, and San Francisco dodges Trump's crackdown. Three separate stories, but they all have one theme in common. I'll tell you what it is, next.

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COATES: Well, it pays to be rich and friendly to President Trump. Today's pardon of a crypto billionaire proves that. Changpeng Zhao founded the crypto exchange Binance. He also pleaded guilty to money laundering, spending four months in prison, paying $200 million in fines, and resigning from the company that he founded, which also had to pay $4 billion in fines. But today, President Trump pardoned Zhao. Zhao posting on X, he's -- quote -- "deeply grateful for the pardon" and Trump's commitment to -- quote -- "fairness, innovation, and justice."

But Zhao did not mention that Trump's family chose Binance to host their own cryptocurrency. And that move may have earned the Trump family more than $5 billion just since last year. Trump didn't mention that either. But he did blame his predecessor for Zhao's prosecution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He had a lot of support. And they said that what he did is not even a crime. It wasn't a crime that he was persecuted by the Biden administration. And so, I gave him a pardon at the request of a lot of very good people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I'm joined now by two CNN political commentators, Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton and former DNC communications director, Xochitl Hinojosa. Glad to have both of you here.

I'll begin with you, Xochitl, because people have criticized this pardon, Democrats specifically, and they were quick to do so. Also, Senator Elizabeth Warren as well says that Congress needs to stop crypto corruption. Um, there's a lot of confusion around cryptocurrency, I have to tell you. I think a lot of voters don't know a whole lot about exactly what it means. So, is this call to end it going to resonate? They understand the issue of this pardon?

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it was all - it was Democrats and Republicans who were calling for some accountability when it comes to Binance, whenever the charges were brought. And what I will say here is it wasn't just that charges were brought and that there was going to be a trial, is he pled guilty --

COATES: Right.

HINOJOSA: -- to these charges. And I think that is a very important point.

COATES: He admitted.

HINOJOSA: He admitted to the charges. And so, now, for Donald Trump to go on and say, well, no, it was my predecessor and, you know, these charges were not warranted, is just not true, then why did he plead guilty?

But what I will say about this is that this comes down to how Donald Trump personally gains from the crypto industry, and I think this is just one step that shows that he does not want the crypto industry to necessarily be regulated in any way.

And this is part of what the Justice Department was trying to do. The Justice Department believed that there were not only -- that they were not -- they will not only need to regulate this, but there are also national security implications when it came to Binance and their dealings.

And so, there are -- this -- I mean, I think this -- it can be dangerous in many ways. It opens the door for other potential folks in crypto to go ahead and take advantage of the system.

COATES: You know, I hear what you're saying. I want to get your take on this. It behooves me as a prosecutor to say, though, sometimes, people do plead to cases, into crimes, because the cost benefit analysis of having way of the government against them --

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Uh-hmm.

COATES: -- it's too much. Now, I'm not saying he's not guilty. He admitted it. He has his own allocution of facts, as it says.

SINGLETON: Uh-hmm.

COATES: But there's something in there that just feels compelled to say, you know, justice doesn't always operate the same way we think.

SINGLETON: Yeah.

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COATES: But then, again, politics seems to operate as usual. And I wonder if there is a motivation, knowing that crypto is very popular among young male voters.

SINGLETON: Uh-hmm.

COATES: A coveted demographic for both Republicans and Democrats. Is that the reason why?

SINGLETON: Absolutely, that Trump made great appeals to, by the way, the -- quote, unquote -- "crypto bros." I mean, look, I am of the -- of the mindset that the U.S. federal government should be very cautious in how much regulation we put on the crypto market in part because of the blockchain technology, which is really where the emphasis needs to be in terms of our federal government.

COATES: And what does it mean?

SINGLETON: So, blockchain technology really sort of democratizes finance in general. So, if you're someone from a community that may have been disadvantaged, historically speaking, and I'm talking about sort of traditional banking, traditional finance, blockchain eliminates all of that, Laura. So, the possibilities here in the finance sector are really unlimited, particularly, in my opinion, if you're a person of color. I think there's a lot of potential there in that regard.

Also, the Chinese are really focused heavily on utilizing blockchain technology to go beyond finance, maybe for purchasing of housing or to invest, more broadly speaking. The U.S. needs to dominate that sector.

And so, to me, I think this is less about Trump wanting to sort of curry favor with the sort of the crypto community and more so recognizing the importance for the United States to dominate in this sector, to dominate in this field, but also the potential for average Americans as it pertains to crypto and, again, democratizing finance.

COATES: Let's forget crypto and go to Canada for a second. I'm sure you heard about this today because this is just coming in. The president posted on Truth Social that he is canceling trade talks with Canada over an ad featuring a speech from President Reagan. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): When someone says, let's impose tariffs on foreign imports, it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes, for a short while, it works, but only for a short time. But over the long run, such trade barriers hurt every American worker and consumer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, he called their behavior egregious, Xochitl, in the airing of this ad. What gives?

HINOJOSA: I mean, the ad is true. I mean, it talks about how tariffs are going to impact families. Listen, I don't think that Donald Trump is so -- I mean, you just cannot predict what he's going to do on tariffs, and it impacts the economy. We have -- there has been so much whiplash when it comes to these tariffs that it is very clear that he never had a plan and currently does not have a plan on how to land the plane on -- when it comes to his tariff strategy.

COATES: But it's the use of Reagan. I think it's important to note because I know Democrats have made a very big deal of comparing and contrasting who has been looked at as the symbol of Republicanism, Ronald Reagan to Trump. Maybe that ruffled his feathers.

HINOJOSA: Well, I think what also ruffled his feathers is he understands that the Supreme Court will be hearing oral arguments on this. And I think that the administration is very nervous about what the Supreme Court is going to do. And the next few weeks are critical for the administration and Donald Trump's tariff policy.

So, when he sees an ad like this coming from Canada, as has been reported, I think that is what ruffled his feathers, because he understands that there isn't white support for his tariffs. And heading into the Supreme Court arguments, that could be a problem.

COATES: Good point.

SINGLETON: But you know what? It's one thing, Xochitl, for Democrats to say, look, we disagree with the president's position on tariffs. As you just stated, the president can't land the plane. If you believe that as a Democrat, you're an American, you have every right to make that argument to the American people here and via ads as an American.

I am very, very skeptical and cautious about having a foreign government, whether friend or foe, spending almost $100 million to essentially interfere with American domestic politics. I think if this was China or Russia, we would be appalled by this.

COATES: I do want you to finish that point. But for the reasons you've just stated, the American voter can be peppered apart from what another nation is saying about an advertisement. So, does the fact that there is independence undercut your argument? So, what if they're saying it?

SINGLETON: I don't think it does at all, Laura, because, again, if you open this Pandora's box as it pertains to tariffs, what's to then stop a foreign entity from saying, you know what, we don't like this particular political leader? So, maybe we should spend $100 million to say we prefer a Democratic president over a Republican president because their tariffs will be more beneficial to our economy, our bottom line.

I don't want to open that door. And so, I'm in agreement with the president. You have overstepped your boundaries. You can absolutely negotiate with the White House and the officials that the president has appointed to negotiate tariffs, what's in the benefit of the U.S., what's in beneficial to Canada. I'm in agreement. That's the normal regular process, regular order. But to spend $100 million interfering, I'm not in support of that at all.

COATES: He used the word interfering. They have an advertisement. I recognize your argument about Russia and China and the history we've seen recently.

[23:40:00]

But is this where we should be politically, that trade negotiations are off because of an ad?

HINOJOSA: Well, I was just going to mention that. And I think it's -- I -- I -- I agree. I don't think it should be. I think that just like Donald Trump was shocked about this ad and it ruffled some feathers to him, I do think that Canada was also shocked when he imposed those tariffs. I think that the fact that our allies, we are going to war, a trade war with our allies has shocked the world.

And so, I think that what Canada is doing is they're playing hardball here with Donald Trump, similar to what he has been doing, because this is not the way that the U.S. should be negotiating with our allies.

SINGLETON: I think if the Canadians wanted to play hardball, then they would say, we're going to increase tariffs on whatever goods that are coming into the United States or we're going to find other allied nations to partner with, to undercut U.S. dollar valuation, et cetera. You don't spend $70 million in a persuasive effort, in a way to push the American people against the current administration. That -- that's not the role of the Canadian government.

And, by the way, I would say, we shouldn't interfere in their politics either by running ads. We should go through a process of having our political leaders negotiate, and then figure out what the resolution is, Laura. But I think Americans, Republicans, and Democrats should be highly skeptical of this. And I consider the Canadians to be a friendly nation. They're an ally.

COATES: Well, it's curious to think about how this will all unfold. Democracies, wanting their voters to have all the information. We'll see.

SINGLETON: Hmm.

COATES: Shermichael, Xochitl, thank you both.

SINGLETON: Thanks, Laura.

HINOJOSA: Thanks.

COATES: Up next, a lawsuit awakens. A D.C. protester who followed the National Guard around with Darth Vader's theme song says he was handcuffed for doing so. But tonight, the protester strikes back in court. He's here to explain it all, next.

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[23:45:00]

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: I'm sure Skywalker is with them. Set your course for the Hoth system. General Veers, prepare your men.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: If you're a "Star Wars" fan, you probably know when you hear that tune, it's not a good thing. Darth Vader's "Imperial March" has come to symbolize the machinery of tyranny, of control, and fear. And it got one guy thinking, what if we use that very tune to protest Trump's deployment of the National Guard to Washington, D.C.? Well, Sam O'Hara filmed clip after clip of him following guard troops on the streets of D.C. while blasting "The Imperial March." That is until this happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

UNKNOWN: Hey man, if you're going to keep following us, we can contact Metro P.D. and they can come handle you if that's what you want to do. Is that what you want to do? Okay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: O'Hara did not stop playing "The Imperial March" when he was asked, which led that guard member to call the cops. He says that shortly after, he was handcuffed by D.C police. And he was handcuffed and detained for 15 to 20 minutes before he was let go. Well, now, he is suing that guard member along with the D.C. police officers who detained him for what he says was a violation of his First Amendment rights. The ACLU is filing the suit on O'Hara's behalf. And in their complaint, they wrote -- quote -- "The law might have tolerated government conduct of this sort a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But in the here and now, the First Amendment bars government officials from shutting down peaceful protests."

Our show did reach out to D.C. Metropolitan Police and the D.C. Joint Task Force for comment. They would not comment on pending litigation.

Sam O'Hara joins me now along with senior staff attorney at the ACLU D.C., Michael Perloff. Welcome to you both. What an interesting turn of events. I'm sure you did not expect to happen. But why did you decide to protest in your own way using that music?

SAM O'HARA, PLAYED "IMPERIAL MARCH" WHILE PROTESTING NATIONAL GUARD IN D.C.: Yeah. Thanks for having me and thanks for asking that question. I think, you know, overwhelmingly, I decided to protest just because I want people to know that this is not normal. What's going on right now in Washington, D.C. feels dystopian at best. And I feel like not reacting to it or not protesting would normalize it. It's not normal.

And when I think of the "Star Wars" "Imperial March," I think of just kind of an overwhelming sound that brings to mind what I want people to think of, is that this is bad, right? This is -- this is not normal, and they do not belong here.

COATES: There's always a Pavlovian response we all have when we hear that song. You do conjure up images of everything that is bad.

O'HARA: For sure.

COATES: And the force not in the right direction. They did ask you to stop. They turned around. We saw that on camera. Why did you choose not to?

O'HARA: Well, you know, thankfully, I pay attention. In Washington, D.C., I know my rights. I was on a public sidewalk. And this is not my first protest. And hopefully, it won't be my last. Washingtonians, that's what we do. And I'm very proud to protest when I have an opinion. And I was, you know, fully within my rights. And so, when I was asked not to videotape or not to record or not to play music, I know that that's not the law and that's not how things work.

COATES: And Michael, I mean, the First Amendment is strong and it's there for a reason. He was not arrested, but he was detained, which essentially does the equivalent of forcing you not to engage in the activity that he was trying to engage in. But what are the arguments you're making in your lawsuit?

MICHAEL PERLOFF, SENIOR STAFF ATTORNEY, ACLU OF D.C.: Well, this is a straightforward First Amendment violation.

[23:50:01]

And it goes to the heart of what the First Amendment exists to protect. You know, this case comes at a time where we're seeing government officials encouraging the public to find levity and satire in the statements of the people who support them. But when it comes to the comments of the government's critics, then -- then we see the whole force of the state pushing back. That's not how this works.

The First Amendment doesn't let the government decide what's funny, what satire is appropriate, what protests are okay. Those choices -- those choices belong to us. They belong to the public. And what this case is about is reaffirming that fundamental principle and allowing us to keep making those decisions.

COATES: Even if you were mocking or it was satirical or if you intended to get a laugh and make them the brunt of the joke, you were not -- as far as you've said in your lawsuit, you were not interfering with their actual work. Is that correct?

O'HARA: Yeah. No, I was not interfering with their actual work.

COATES: They're going to argue you were, of course.

O'HARA: I'm sure they will. And, you know, I've got a really great lawyer representing me. But, yeah, my intention is never to mock the military. This is not what I'm here to do. I imagine that the men and women who joined the National Guard do not think that they were going to be policing their fellow citizens. I just don't think that's what anyone signed up for. And I hate that that's where we are, but that's where we are. And I'm against that, and that's what my protest is about.

COATES: How will you counter the argument that is likely forthcoming, that this isn't interference, so there were mocking of people in uniform?

PERLOFF: Well, protesting law enforcement officers or guard members, that's not harassment, that's not interference, that's First Amendment constitutionally-protected activity. And we understand that guard members, law enforcement officers have challenges that they have to deal with, have difficult jobs. But part of their responsibility is to accept protest and criticism.

At the end of the day, the real reason we're here is because the government officials that sent these folks to D.C. put them in a spot where they were going to face challenges and protests that they wouldn't have to have otherwise. You know, we have --

COATES: A public street, right? This is a public street.

PERLOFF: Public street.

COATES: A public forum, as they say, in constitutional law.

PERLOFF: Absolutely. Yep.

COATES: Very important to make that distinction because if you were in a private space, then it would not be the government who could set the determinations of where you could be, but you're in a public forum. O'HARA: This is Logan Circle. This is my neighborhood. This is my walk home. I'm on a public sidewalk, and I am free to protest where I was.

PERLOFF: And this is really the heart of, again, what the First Amendment is all about. Being on a public street, using your right to speak, express yourself, tell the government what you think about what they're doing to their face, and do it in a way that's fun, that's funny, and that uses the absurdity of music to say that you think the government is doing something. That's absurd.

COATES: What are you hoping to achieve by this lawsuit? Is it monetary? Is it principle? What?

O'HARA: It's principle. It's principle. I -- I want -- I don't want anyone to ever feel like they can't do what I'm doing, which is protest. And if I stopped protesting or if I let me being handcuffed, make it feel like I couldn't do this again, um, I'd lose. And I don't want to lose here. I want to be able to continue to, you know, hold my head up high and know what I'm doing is something that I believe in, and do it without fear of being handcuffed or any other kind of physical violence.

COATES: Sam O'Hara, Michael Perloff, thank you both.

O'HARA: Thank you for having me.

PERLOFF: Thanks for having us.

COATES: You know, still ahead on this Thursday night, more from my interview with actor Wendell Pierce, who describes one of his favorite traditions as a -- quote -- "beautiful expression of artistry." Can you guess what it is? Next.

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[23:55:00]

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COATES: So, do you know Mardi Gras? It's more than beads and parade floats. It is a celebration of life. And CNN is going behind the scenes with the people that keep the traditions alive on the next episode of "New Orleans: Soul of a City." I caught up with New Orleans native and actor Wendell Pierce about what it means to him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WENDELL PIERCE, ACTOR: Mardi Gras is the biggest block party in the world.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

PIERCE: While we know about the parades and the bands and everyone goes for the festive crews that come in the order of that and the disorder of that, it's really about the community celebrating itself before time of reflection. You know, the Lenten season.

COATES: Hmm.

PIERCE: As we go into Lenten time -- excuse me, the Lenten season, before we go towards this -- the restitution of what Easter celebrates. But before we get into that time of reflection, we party. And it's the time to reconnect to your community, reconnect to your family. People come home. You know, it's like a holiday season that celebrates life, celebrates your family and all.

[23:59:58]

And it's one of those things that -- it's just another Tuesday for everyone else --

COATES: Hmm.

PIERCE: -- but it's Mardi Gras in New Orleans.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Be sure to tune in to new episode of "New Orleans: Soul of a City." It airs Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN.

Hey, thank you so much for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.