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Laura Coates Live

Hurricane Melissa Churns Towards Cuba; Trump Admin Eyes Major Change In Immigration Countdown; GOP Seeks To Undo Biden's Pardons. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired October 28, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Scan the Q.R. code below or go to cnn.com/watch for more on this new experience. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. CNN's "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right now, the carnage continues as Hurricane Melissa churns from Jamaica to now Cuba. We are live in the Caribbean with the storm of the century. Plus, ICE in the hot seat. The intense and dramatic shakeup being planned to turbocharge the president's deportations. And Republicans treating President Biden's pardons like he bounced a check while they're now trying to argue they're even counting. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

The strongest storm on Earth so far this year slammed into Jamaica, a Category 5 hurricane. And just for perspective, Hurricane Katrina made landfall as a Category 3. We are waiting for daylight to understand the full scope of the damage to an island home to nearly three million people across an island the size of Connecticut.

Right now, Hurricane Melissa is a powerful Category 3 storm that is barreling towards Cuba. A direct, dark of night hit now, just hours away, as forecasters warn of deadly flash flood flooding, 30 inches of rain, and winds around 130 miles per hour. Now, when this hurricane made landfall on the southwest coast of Jamaica, it was the strongest to ever strike the island. We're talking about wind speeds of 185 miles per hour. I mean, just listen to the sound captured by CNN's cameras in Kingston.

Jamaican officials say the entire country has been impacted. The infrastructure -- quote -- "severely compromised" with reports of damages to homes and hospitals. Look at this photo captured earlier today. It shows massive boulders blocking a roadway in St. Thomas Parish on the southeast part of the country. Tonight, officials believe half a million people are without power, 15,000 people are in shelters, and about 25,000 tourists remain stuck.

In a moment, you'll hear from an American couple who rode off the storm in one of the hardest-hit areas. But first, to CNN's Patrick Oppmann on the ground in Santiago, Cuba where the storm is now nearing. Patrick, you are not far from where the storm could make landfall. Describe the conditions right now.

PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, we have these periods of torrential rains, and then these pauses where you think maybe the worst has begun to go by us and kicks off all over again even stronger.

So, right now, where we are, the city of Santiago de Cuba, the entire city is on blackout. We only are able to transmit because we brought a generator with us. But about half a million people here are in blackout. And throughout the eastern end of Cuba, the power has been entirely knocked out. So, people are at their homes. They're in the dark. They're not able to know the latest, able to see what is happening.

You know, of course, you hear these loud bangs, and there's real concern that this storm, as the winds kick up, could pick up debris, and that debris essentially becomes shrapnel. So, police have come by with loudspeakers telling everyone to stay in their house. There is a curfew going on right now until first light in the morning.

And that is really the best thing that people can be doing because with these heavy rains, with the potential for a flash flood, this is the most dangerous time right now because if there is any kind of incident, if anyone is injured, help is simply not coming, at least not until the sun comes up and people are able to begin to take in the damage that this terrifying hurricane has caused here.

COATES: Were they told in advance how to prepare? Was there enough of a warning?

OPPMANN: People were told that this is a serious storm. Of course, Cubans or islanders, they -- they -- they know all about hurricanes, but this is a particularly powerful storm. So, they were warned by officials. You had hundreds of thousands of people who evacuated from low-lying areas.

It's just too early to say, though, if it was enough because this is a country that's severely lacking in resources and, of course, many people could not get out of the way of this storm.

COATES: Patrick, thank you. Stay in touch. We got storm chasers who are our eyes and our ears when a storm of this kind of magnitude hits. And storm chaser Jonathan Petramala joins me now from Kingston, Jamaica.

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He has been across the island chasing the storm and, of course, the aftermath. Jonathan, give us an idea of the type of damage you're seeing.

JONATHAN PETRAMALA, STORM CHASER: You know, one of the things that you really have to make clear is that anything you've really seen on T.V., online, it's not showing the extent of the devastation that Hurricane Melissa brought to Jamaica. I know that's hard to believe, but I promise you, I have been on the ground, the first person on the ground after Hurricane Dorian in 2019 and, of course, last year, Hurricane Beryl in Carriacou, this is a very powerful storm and with it, it brought some just unimaginable winds and storm surge.

And so, the western part of the island is really suffering and it's, unfortunately, very difficult to get to as well because of terrain and the fact that with that wind, of course, trees are knocked down, power lines are down, so it's going to be very difficult to access. And there's obviously no power, no internet, and so it's very difficult to understand what's going on. But I promise you, there's a lot of devastation there. We just haven't seen yet.

And it's tough to understand that, especially when you're here in Kingston, on the eastern side of Jamaica, that really did not feel the real wrath of Hurricane Melissa. It basically did, maybe a horseshoe around this part of the island. And so, they were very fortunate that they did not have to suffer through that. But I promise, on that western side, it is a race against time to get aid. And as soon as day breaks, they really do need to make sure they can clear that road and get help in as quickly as possible.

COATES: Are you hearing about flooding or rescue operations or is that not even possible yet?

PETRAMALA: It wasn't possible during the storm. We reached basically the outer edges of the hurricane force winds, 100, 110 mile an hour wind, and it's better -- no better way to describe it but feisty. And so, you not only had to deal with the winds that were knocking down trees and power lines and power poles, but also brought a tremendous amount of flooding in areas of, uh, the center part of the island.

And so, that made it very difficult to get around because there's very limited road systems in -- around the island of Jamaica. And so, one road gets -- a tree falls across one road, you're stuck. And so, you have to be very cautious about where you're going and how you're getting around because it doesn't take much to -- to get yourself into trouble.

And when you have to deal with multiple factors of hazards with those really high, strong winds combined with the tremendous amount of rain that came along with Hurricane Melissa, especially in that center part of the island, it was a very dangerous situation throughout the day. And so, you didn't really see any sort of government presence. Uh, we did see some -- some firefighters having to do some rescues in the center part of the island. But other than that, everybody really was seeking shelter and staying put because of the -- the severity of the storm.

COATES: Jonathan, thank you. The warm waters off Jamaica's coast that helped fuel Hurricane Melissa also attracts millions of tourists, and many of them are stranded there tonight. I'm joined by two of them now, Christina and Tony Malchodi. They are Iowa natives who were celebrating their 10th wedding anniversary in Negril when Hurricane Melissa hit.

Christina, unbelievable. I know the worst of the storm hit this morning. You're from the Midwest. You've never experienced a hurricane before. Can you describe what it has been like?

CHRISTINA MALCHODI, STRANDED TOURIST IN JAMAICA (via telephone): Um, it was definitely nerve-wracking, the last 24 hours leading up to it, and then, of course, today. We are grateful that it did hit during the daylight hours. The fear of the unknown of it possibly hitting at night and not being able to see anything but just to hear it, I think, would have been worse. But it was pretty devastating. We were in a safe spot. And I realized that soon after it started, that we were going to be safe. But it was -- it was very nerve-wracking. Very much so.

COATES: I mean, Tony, it has been a few hours since the hurricane has passed, but we aren't having -- we don't have a lot of insight to the extent of the damage there. What are you seeing at the resort? How damaged is the property?

TONY MALCHODI, STRANDED TOURIST IN JAMAICA (via telephone): It's hard to tell how much damage there is because right now, we've been on lockdown in our rooms for basically the past 24 hours. So, we can only see like what we can see from our, you know, window. You know, there are some trees that are down. There has been debris that has been washed up on the beach.

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But as far as like the integrity of the resort, from what we can see, we peek our head out the window, it looks to be intact. But that's -- we don't have a whole lot to go by.

COATES: This is not at all what either of you, I'm sure, wanted nor does the rest of the island. And you were trying to evacuate before the storm. You couldn't. You're now booked for a flight on Thursday. Any sign that you could make it out?

C. MALCHODI (via telephone): Probably not. They're saying that it could be a couple weeks even. Uh, we -- I don't think that they've really said how Montego Bay airport is. I don't know if they thoroughly assessed it in the daylight. And the road getting to Montego Bay, um, I guess, is the big question.

N. MALCHODI (via telephone): It frequently washed out, apparently.

COATES: I mean, from Negril to Montego Bay --

C. MALCHODI (via telephone): We did reach out to --

COATES: -- you're on the coast, right? You got to -- you got to go through those sorts of winding roads to get back.

C. MALCHODI (via telephone): Absolutely. And when we went on a tour earlier this week and hit some of the countryside, that was one thing he said when we went through the town, Luusi (ph). He said, you know, that's the main road, you know, to get us to the airport. And he said, every time a storm hits, this road washes away.

COATES: Christine, Tony, thank you. C. MALCHODI (via telephone): Thank you.

N. MALCHODI (via telephone): Thank you so much.

COATES: I'm joined now by Jamaica's minister of tourism, the honorable minister, Edmund Bartlett. Minister, thank you for joining. We're hearing from tourists. We're hearing from people who've been on the ground as well, who are in the grill and Kingston. They're saying that it could be weeks before they're able to leave, let alone what's happening to the people who live in Jamaica. Could you give us the status of the roads, of the airports there?

EDMUND BARTLETT, JAMAICA'S MINISTER OF TOURISM: Well, thank you very much, Laura. We are a resilient country.

COATES: Hmm.

And we pride ourselves in having to deal from time to time with disruptions. The last one, of course, was COVID. And we navigated that one well, recovered fast, and became the fastest growing economy in the region.

The issue of the speed with which we recover is a function of many things. One, of course, is the efficiencies of our own application. And already, we are looking at Kingston Airport that could be ready by tomorrow for rescue operations and special flights that are coming in for humanitarian and other purposes.

COATES: Do you need humanitarian relief?

BARTLETT: Pardon?

COATES: Do you think you'll need humanitarian relief as the damage is that extensive?

BARTLETT: Yes. I just wanted to put (INAUDIBLE) very quickly to the notion that it could take weeks before the visitors who are here are returned to their respective destinations. Um, tomorrow, the minister of transport and myself will fly over to Montego Bay to do a full assessment of the airport there and the extent to which we can have that ready as fast as possible so that we can repatriate those visitors who are here and who need to get back to their respective homes.

Um, we make every effort at all the hotels to give the best service to them, to enable distress rates (ph) and other facilitation so that the period in which they have to stay will be as short but as comfortable and as painless as possible. Jamaica spends a lot of time in caring for our visitors. And this incident, as you know, was one that is -- one in perhaps a century.

COATES: Yes.

BARTLETT: Indeed, it is argued that this particular, uh, hurricane ranks only one in two of its type that has happened in the North Atlantic, um, for -- for -- for maybe several centuries. And a small country such as ours responding to it in the way that we have so far is worth thinking about in a positive way.

COATES: Of course, minister. And I'm glad that you've mentioned that. Excuse me. Sorry. I don't want to talk over you, but I'm glad you've mentioned that. I want you to know that we're thinking of not only the tourism, which I know is a major, uh, source of joy and pride and revenue in Jamaica, but also the people who live there, who are from Jamaica.

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We're thinking about what the life will be like for them with the impact of this storm. And I do hope you'll keep us posted as to how they are doing as well. Minister Edmund Bartlett, thank you so much.

BARTLETT: Absolutely.

COATES: For information about how you can help Hurricane Melissa victims, please go to cnn.com/impact. Next, a huge shakeup at ICE has my next guest alarmed, writing today, "Think ICE is bad now? Today the Border Patrol is taking it over." And he's not alone with this concern. A judge telling in Chicago he now wants a Border Patrol official to give her a report every single day. Garrett Graff is standing by to explain the concerns next.

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COATES: Tension between the Trump administration and ICE. Why? Well, the administration wants 3,000 immigration arrests every single day, and they're not hitting that number. So, what are they doing about it? Shaking up leadership at ICE again. At least a dozen directors of ICE offices are being reassigned. Border Patrol agents are being brought in. And some of those ICE directors, they could be replaced by Border Patrol officials.

Now, there are already some Border Patrol officials out front, as you know, like Gregory Bovino. He is the chief patrol agent of the El Centro sector and has been the lead on the administration's crackdown in cities. Right now, he is in Chicago.

It's not going so well. A judge taking the rare step of ordering him to brief her every night, telling him he must wear a body cam, zeroing in on reports of aggressive tactics like agents disrupting a children's Halloween parade with tear gas. Quote -- "I can only imagine how terrified they were. These kids, you can imagine their sense of safety was shattered on Saturday. And it's going to take a long time for that to come back, if ever."

My next guest has covered the Border Patrol extensively throughout both Republican and Democratic administrations. I'm talking about journalist Garrett Graff, and he joins me now. Garrett, welcome. You -- you wrote a new piece and it's titled, "Think Ice is Bad Now? Today the Border Patrol is Taking It Over." What has you so concerned? GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST: Yeah, as much as we sort of consider all of

these federal agencies, that sort of weird brown-shirted tactical vest wearing blob of immigration enforcement, it's best to really think that there have been two very distinct armed groups terrorizing America's streets as part of this immigration enforcement.

You have ICE officers who have been doing a lot of the detentions and deportations from places like immigration courts. But really on the streets, day to day, it's the sort of fully Fallujah-invading, tactical gear-wearing CBP officers who have been responsible for some of the most sort of high-profile controversies from Los Angeles to Chicago to Portland. It has often these border patrol agents who are the ones responsible for these heavily-militarized shows of force.

And the field commander behind those is this agent, Gregory Bovino, uh, who was called before this Chicago judge today. And Bovino, alongside Corey Lewandowski, this sort of fellow (INAUDIBLE)-like DHS special government employee who is helping to organize these deportation efforts, have apparently decided that they want more of the Border Patrol model to sweep up immigrants on America's streets and --

COATES: Hmm.

GRAFF: -- deport them because ICE just isn't being aggressive enough.

COATES: You know what? Many people might know Corey Lewandowski, a familiar household name in the first administration. But Gregory Bovino, what do you know about him? What do we need to know?

GRAFF: Yeah. So, Bovino has been this, I think, sort of fascinating character. He's one of the 20 or so sector chiefs across the country for the Border Patrol, 30-year Border Patrol veteran, um, relatively sort of average agent, you know, senior agent through Democratic and Republican administrations, rising through the ranks, and then starting early this year, he became really the face of the most aggressive actions that we've seen the Border Patrol take, and it has included some high-profile raids in California, including that sort of militarized horseback riding raid on MacArthur Park.

Gregory Bovino led a group of Border Patrol agents who set up shop, uh, outside of a Gavin Newsom press conference, which seemed a pretty dramatic attempt to intimidate an elected official.

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Um, and Bovino in Chicago has helped lead the raid on that Chicago apartment building that was so controversial and has now been involved in the showdowns with protesters outside that ICE facility in Broadview, Illinois. So, sort of wherever the Trump immigration drama goes, Gregory Bovino is in the front row.

COATES: Well, now, a judge wants a daily meeting with that chief and for him to wear a body camera. We'll see where this goes. Garrett Graff, thank you.

GRAFF: Always a pleasure, Laura.

COATES: Up next, void. That's what White House Republicans or House Republicans are calling President Biden's pardons. And they're now hoping the Department of Justice can make their wish come true. Plus, it was the layoff that sparked a panic. Amazon cutting thousands of jobs as workers everywhere wonder, is this what happens when A.I. takes over?

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COATES: I'm sure, by now, you've heard President Trump make this claim about President Biden time and time again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: An autopen was used by people, and Biden knew nothing about it.

Biden and all of the people that actually ran the government, including the autopen.

Biden took office, which is barely took office. The autopen took office.

I think the autopen was president, not Biden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, started as a punchline. Then you had the president unveil a presidential hall of fame with framed portraits for every president and, of course, just an autopen signature for Biden. Petty.

But tonight, Republicans are saying this isn't just about trolling anymore. The GOP-led House Oversight Committee just put out a nearly 100-page report and alleges that Biden experienced such severe cognitive decline while he was in office, that he may have been unaware of all the pardons and commutations signed in his name using autopen. The report did not cite any direct evidence for this, but it does go on to say -- quote -- "The committee deems void all executive actions signed by the autopen without proper written approval traceable to the president's own consent."

Well, now, Trump's attorney general, Pam Bondi, says that she's reviewing all of Biden's pardons reportedly signed by autopen. This raises an important question. Can the DOJ or Congress simply devoid a presidential pardon? Well, the answer is quite clearly no because of all the powers of a president, I mean, the power to grant a pardon, quite absolute.

Look at what the Constitution says. Quote -- "The president shall have the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." There's actually no requirement written as to form. Obviously, the framers of the Constitution didn't contemplate a BIC pen, let alone the autopen and Docusign -- let's not even go there. Nowhere does it actually say the president must formally sign a document for a pardon to take hold.

As far as concerned, the president could probably yell, I pardon you from across the street. And most lawyers would argue their client just got one, which brings us back to the autopen. No law governs the president's use of autopen, but, and this is a big one, there is an opinion from the Office of Legal Counsel back in 2005, that same office that brought you the 'you can't indict a sitting president,' that fame which deals with autopen when it comes to signing legislation, saying -- quote -- "We conclude that the president need not personally perform the physical act of affixing his signature to a bill he approves in order for the bill to become law."

So, even if Biden did use autopen to sign pardons, it's going to be difficult for Bondi to make the case that they weren't valid. And let's say she decides they aren't valid, we'll follow that thread for a second. Does it lead back to the Bureau of Prisons to then re- incarcerate or the Supreme Court to clarify?

Joining me now, CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings along with Democrat strategist Antjuan Seawright. Glad to have both of you here. The autopen, I feel like we've been here before, I know we have, but yet here we are again. And a top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Antjuan, Robert Garcia, he is calling the report, that 100- page or so report, a sham investigation and talking about the disputed claims as to whether there was a competence or a cognitive decline for Biden. How do you see it?

ANTJUAN SEAWRIGHT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, weapons of mass political distraction can come in many forms. Today or tonight, it comes in the form of an (INAUDIBLE) report by an (INAUDIBLE) committee chairman who himself has used the autopen as a form of signature when necessary.

The current president has used the autopen and this precedent or this practice has been used for 70 plus years in this country. The only reason it is part of the dialogue and conversation in the news cycle today is because this failed -- do nothing Republican majority has failed the American people on key issues like the economic bill of health of everyday Americans. And now, they need something to jam the news cycle. Otherwise, we would not be having this conversation. Every single person who testified from Biden world testified with reassurance that the president was fully in tune and engaged with everything that was happening in the White House.

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COATES: What do you say? Obviously, you disagree.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's not about the pen. The autopen has been used. Presidents, as you pointed out, used it. There's precedent for that. That's fine. The question is, did the president himself authorize or make the decision that led to the use of the autopen? And what the committee found was that there were numerous instances where there was no real direct chain of evidence going from presidential decision-making to the use of the autopen. And in the last three months of the Biden administration, he was, I think we all acknowledge, and the reporting is very clear, in severe cognitive decline. And so, the committee -- the committee -- the committee -- you don't agree he was in cognitive decline?

SEAWRIGHT: I do not, because there's no medical evidence to say that. Now, that's a political talking point for some of you on the right. But there's no evidence that points to that, Dr. Scott.

JENNINGS: Do you know --

SEAWRIGHT: Dr. Scott --

JENNINGS: Do you know -- do you know -- do you know why the president's physician took the Fifth Amendment before the committee?

SEAWRIGHT: No. The same reason why Republicans have taken the Fifth Amendment under oath.

JENNINGS: Listen, if you're -- if you're -- if you're here to argue the sharpness of Joe Biden, I commend you on your effort.

SEAWRIGHT: I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not here to argue that. I'm just saying there's no medical evidence to point there was some cognitive decline.

JENNINGS: Do you have eyes and ears? I think you do.

SEAWRIGHT: I do.

JENNINGS: Okay.

SEAWRIGHT: The same eyes and ears that saw --

JENNINGS: And here's the thing --

SEAWRIGHT: -- that the president prevented a government shutdown. During his time, we talked about bipartisan legislative agenda that he put together. So, I do have eyes and ears and you do, too.

JENNINGS: You want to go or you want me to go?

SEAWRIGHT: You can go now.

JENNINGS: I'll go. All right. All right. So, the committee found that in many instances, they could not trace presidential decision making to the use of the autopen. It's unprecedented. We've never had this situation before. So, it's not the use of the device, it's a question of presidential power.

The Constitution says only the president can pardon, as you pointed out. But he has to make the decision. An unelected staffer cannot say, well, we think he's okay with us pardoning this group of people, and let's do it. That would be extra constitutional. And now, the DOJ has to decide what to do with it. I'm not sure what you do. I guess you go ask a judge if these decisions are traceable.

COATES: Well, this is interesting part. The reviewable part of it is the key for this, right?

JENNINGS: Yeah.

COATES: Normally, you'd have to have a judge or somebody declare a legal issue for a court of law. And the very point I think you were making, Antjuan, was about the idea of evidence being sacrosanct and making sure you have it to bring to a judge who was going to say, is it your thought on the issue?

But let me just point this out because the argument seems to be not the autopen, but whether he had a direct line. My colleague, Kaitlan Collins, actually asked the president about his choice to pardon the convicted founder of crypto company Binance just last week. Listen to what President Trump said.

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KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Today, you pardoned the founder of Binance. Can you explain why you chose to pardon him, and did it have anything to do with his involvement in your family's --

TRUMP: Which one? Who was that?

COLLINS: The founder of Binance. He has an involvement in your own family's crypto business.

TRUMP: The recent one? I believe we're talking about the same person, because I do pardon a lot of people. I don't know. He was recommended by a lot of people. A lot of people say that -- are you talking about the crypto person?

COLLINS: Yes.

TRUMP: A lot of people say that he wasn't guilty of anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Does that cause the same disconnect in your mind as the accusations against Biden if you put against the accusations that has caused a decline? If Trump is saying, well, I don't really know, I've been recommended in some ways, does that undermine a claim that a president has to have direct contact?

JENNINGS: No, I don't know that they have to have direct contact. They just have to have some way to display that they made the decision. And what the committee is saying about Biden is, in many of these cases, there's really no paper trail to go from presidential decision making to the use of the autopen

In this case, you know, many people lobby the office of the president and all administrations for pardons, and the president often doesn't personally know them and probably doesn't even personally meet them.

COATES: Why does a pardon --

JENNINGS: And that's fine. That's fine. The question is, where does the power lie? It doesn't lie with the staff. It only lies with the president. The same would be true for executive orders if executive orders were drafted and signed in his name. You know, I think it's a legit question. Now, whether -- I don't know how a judge would deal with this if the DOJ showed up in court. It is an unprecedented situation.

SEAWRIGHT: Scott, I would just say to you, President Trump brags about his pardoning of many folks during his first term and now even into his second term. I think of them as 1600 in first term. Do you honestly believe with all your Kentucky hearts of hearts that Donald Trump knew and signed every single pardon from his first time to 1600 number?

Here's the ones I know he probably did agree to assign himself. January 6 insurrectionist who stormed the Capitol. But, however, I don't think Donald Trump or any president for that matter who signed large number of pardons directly signed each individual one of the --

JENNINGS: Again --

SEAWRIGHT: That's why I opened my comments around --

JENNINGS: -- it's not a question about the signing, it's a question about knowledge of decision making.

SEAWRIGHT: So --

JENNINGS: And I think -- and I think Trump has knowledge. Look, I've been around the president quite a bit this year. I can tell you -- I can tell you that the nerve center of this White House is in the Oval Office, at the resolute Desk.

SEAWRIGHT: How much time -- how much time did you spend with Joe Biden? I'm just curious.

JENNINGS: How much -- how much time did his senior staff spend with him?

SEAWRIGHT: How much time did you spend with Joe Biden?

JENNINGS: Zero. About the same amount as his staff, his senior staff.

SEAWRIGHT: Well, I spent time with Donald Trump, but I have spent time with Joe Biden.

[23:40:01]

Here's what I do know. That Joe Biden, as testified under oath, every single person from Biden world declared that he was into it in the same way that Kevin McCarthy --

JENNINGS: Okay. I think you should -- I think you should stay with it. You should stay with the sharpness of Joe Biden.

SEAWRIGHT: Kevin McCarthy said that Joe Biden sharpest attack --

JENNINGS: You should stay with it.

SEAWRIGHT: -- was keeping the government open.

JENNINGS: Keep going.

COATES: Well, I've got news for both of you.

JENNINGS: The sharpness of Joe Biden is back on the table.

COATES: Well, I've got news for both of you. You might both be able to spend more time with President Trump because he's talking about a third term. And this is the reason. Yeah, I know he's saying not really, but this is still in the ether in 2028 hats and beyond. And I just want to know -- I mean, obviously, the Constitution does not allow it. He himself acknowledged this very fact. We could talk about ways to maneuver it. Is he going to be elected? Will he become a vice president? The 12th Amendment comes into play. The Constitution says no. Here's what he had to say today.

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TRUMP (voice-over): I have my highest poll numbers that I have ever had. And, you know, based on what I read, I guess I am not allowed to run. So, we will see what happens. It is a very interesting thing. I have the best numbers for any president in many years, any president. And I would say that if you read it, it's pretty clear, I am not allowed to run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Exhibit A for any Supreme Court justice looking at this very issue. But why do it? Is he just trying to make sure he's not a lame duck?

JENNINGS: He -- I mean, you left out the last part. But we have a lot of great people. He's already touting the next iteration of the Republican leadership.

COATES: We heard Vance, Rubio.

JENNINGS: It's going to be Vance and Rubio. I do believe he's engaged in a fair amount of trolling. And all the same people who've fallen for every other troll are falling for this one. He has been -- he has pretty clear.

COATES: Oh, you think he's trolling? You think he's not going to run?

JENNINGS: He has been -- he has been pretty clear. He knows the Constitution does not permit it. And he has also said that these gimmicky ideas to get around it, he said -- quote -- "would be too cute." The American people wouldn't go for it. SEAWRIGHT: Distractions come in many forms. Once again, that's a distraction. At the end of the day, the Constitution speaks for itself. I do think this is about two things for Trump, power and control. Surely, he wants to have some power and control over whatever iteration of the MAGA movement looks like when he's no longer in office. So, I think this is his high level of flirtation with that, and he wants to handpick his successor.

COATES: High level of flirtation. That's a whole show.

(LAUGHTER)

Scott and Antjuan, thank you both so much. Amazon laying off thousands of employees. Today, their head of H.R. saying, in part, the company has to ready itself for the future of A.I. So, are human workers on the way out? You know who we'll ask? Mr. Wonderful. Kevin O'Leary is here next.

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[23:45:00]

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COATES: Online retail giant Amazon announcing its plan to cut 14,000 corporate jobs, tying the mass firing to the rise of artificial intelligence in an effort to stay nimble. The company is also warning it is not done with layoffs. So, is it a harbinger of things to come?

Let's ask Shark Tank Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary. Kevin, good to see you. You're actually not convinced that A.I. is the main driver in this decision. Why?

KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN OF O'LEARY VENTURES, SHARK TANK JUDGE: No, no. Two years ago, I thought A.I. was hype. I don't believe that today. I see it in operations in 11 sectors of the economy. We have 11 sectors in the S&P. I'm convinced that it does add productivity and margin and a lot of good things. The analogy of losing all these jobs to A.I. is very much the narrative when television emerged saying it's going to kill radio.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'LEARY: It never happened. This is just a tool. It's a technology tool. Um, there's a lot of claims and hype about what it's going to do. But we're only in the first inning of it. And, frankly, when I look and I drill down, there are many applications that make a lot of sense for A.I. and lot that don't. And so, you we're in the experimental phase, but blaming every layoff to A.I. makes no sense.

COATES: Well, they talk about the senior vice president, of people experience in technology there, describes it as -- that A.I. is allowing companies to innovate much faster. It's one of the statements. And also, that they need to be organized more leanly. Is A.I. the only mechanism to do that, especially in this, you know, inning? O'LEARY: No, no. This is very much like saying, oh, my goodness, we're processing -- software is going to replace every typist. They found other jobs pretty quickly in the office because they're better than just typists. People, you know, find their level of expertise, and they get compensated for it. All of this technology stuff is enhancing our economy. And that's why you see the market with all of the things going on around the world at all-time highs. How is that possible?

A.I. is part of that narrative because everybody is realizing. I'll give you a very real-world example. If you're issuing an insurance policy, two years ago, you had a lot of people researching the fraud rates in the zip code that you're issuing insurance to.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'LEARY: Today, you scrape data with A.I., and nine seconds later, issue the policy as opposed to two weeks. That's good. If you're inspecting the roof of a Walmart or Target today, it's done with a drone at 6K resolution, not people walking around on ladders, the contingent themselves. That happened in the last two years. A company called Fly Guys does that, sends it up to an A.I. model, looks at the roof versus last year before the winter, issues a work order to fix the air conditioning or the tar on the roof. All of this is happening. It's very productive. It's very good. It's good for people.

COATES: Well, tell us, the people who are laid off, who -- one drone can do the work of -- I don't know how many people in terms of efficiency, the amount of time it takes them to do so and the cost.

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That is --

O'LEARY: Well, let's take that example. It's a good case. The person that went up on the ladder to inspect the tar on top of a big box retailer's roof --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'LEARY: -- maybe they made 40 bucks an hour. The drone operator flying the drone is making $400 an hour. So, I'd rather be the drone operator who's a technologist in a sense. He knows how to take this machine and run it all around the country.

COATES: But how do they ramp up the learning curve in a way that means that they're not suffering today or five, 10 years from now?

O'LEARY: Every economy goes through the transition of technology and there is a disruption in the workforce. But in the long run, and I just lay out the last 200 years of the American economy, technology has driven us to leadership every single decade. You shouldn't fear it, you should embrace it.

COATES: What about the idea of blue-collar workers? As you know -- I mean, you talk about embracing fear or not and where it does, but the idea of automation is very scary to a lot of people who are tied to particular trades, who are seeing progress as a threat to the status quo, not because they don't want to be a part of the industry any longer, but because they know that they're going to be streamlined out.

I mean, "The New York Times" alone reported that 600,000 people who are not going to work any longer there because of automation. And you've got blue-collar families and beyond. Does that spell bad news politically?

O'LEARY: No. I think, you know, you -- the key to a society is to educate its population --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'LEARY: -- so that when one platform disappears and a new technology comes along, you train the workforce to use it. You know, the thing is, you got to look at the past and see with all the innovation that's occurred, even in the last 30 years, how productive the U.S. economy is versus other economies that don't have the advantage of this technology. It feels disruptive. It's uncomfortable when you report 14,000 jobs being lost.

COATES: Of course.

O'LEARY: But that's not because of A.I., it's because the way the company is operating is changing so it can remain competitive using technology. And, by the way, just the jobs created by data center construction, tens of thousands of engineers required. You know, whether they're electrical engineers or welders or all of the construction work, that's very high paid. There are not enough people in America to build what we have to do to stay competitive. By the way, the Chinese are beating us on construction of data centers right now, big time.

COATES: Well, it sounds giving some good advice for the future job applicants.

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They'll trust you enough. But Kevin, thank you.

O'LEARY: Thank you.

COATES: You know, today is actually a very exciting day for us here at CNN. Starting today, here in the United States, you can stream "Laura Coates Live" whenever you want, right in the CNN app. For more on this new experience, just go to cnn.com/watch. Easy.

Three years ago, but it's never too late to expect too soon, to expect too late. Who will be at the top of the presidential ticket come 2028? And it just so happens Elex Michaelson recently sat down with both candidates leading a brand-new poll. Don't go anywhere.

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COATES: Well, it's almost midnight here on the East Coast, which means it is time to check in with our friend, Elex Michaelson, out on the West Coast. Elex, good to see you. A brand-new poll we know out of New Hampshire, and it shows Buttigieg leading the potential 2028 pack with 19%. That's four points above Gavin Newsom on your show yesterday, by the way, but so within that margin of error. And you sat down with Buttigieg. You did it recently. Tell me, what do the tea leaves say?

ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Well, none of those people have actually declared that they're running for president --

COATES: Hmm.

MICHAELSON: -- but we assume that many of them are. Pete Buttigieg doing many things that would indicate that he is. So, I asked him about it.

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MICHAELSON: You're thinking about running for president, right? I mean, is that fair to say you're thinking about it?

PETE BUTTIGIEG, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: I mean, I'm a long way from any kind of decision. But, obviously, it's not like it hasn't come up.

MICHAELSON: So, what's -- what's the thought process like?

BUTTIGIEG: Any time I've decided to run for office, I've looked at what the office calls for and in that moment, and I've looked at what I bring to the table and compared that to what others might bring to the table.

MICHAELSON: Uh-hmm.

BUTTIGIEG: And I've followed that process probably five or 10 times in my career. And sometimes, I've decided to run after going through that thinking. And other times, including this year when I decided against running for Senate and for governor in Michigan, I went through that process, and I said, no, it doesn't quite fit, it doesn't quite match.

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MICHAELSON: So, it's interesting, Laura. He has a very different temperament than somebody like Governor Gavin Newsom --

COATES: Yeah.

MICHAELSON: -- who's doing all the memes and trying to fight with Donald Trump. Pete Buttigieg says, that's not really my style. But a big question is, which style is where -- where the democratic base is right now? So, that's one of the things we're going to debate, coming up with Brian Tyler Cohen on the left, Jessica Millan Patterson, the chair of the California Republican Party, former chair joining us for a debate coming up on "The Story Is."

COATES: You know, I never buy when someone says, I've never really thought about it, I haven't really thought about it. I go, really? You really haven't thought about the question that I'm going to ask you?

MICHAELSON: Let's be clear that both Gavin Newsom and Pete Buttigieg, basically, every single room that they walk into, anywhere, every single day, somebody brings it up with them. So, the idea that they haven't thought about it is so absurd on so many levels.

Gavin Newsom for years had insisted to me and every other reporter that he had sub-zero interest, had never thought about it ever in his entire life, and then all of a sudden, says, well, I would be lying if I didn't say I thought about it.

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It's, like, what have you been saying to us for the last few years?

COATES: What's that great jazz song? "It Never Entered My Mind."

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Hmm. I don't believe you. You need more people on this one. I'm so looking forward to your show. It's a great one. Glad to have you here. And I cannot wait to hear this interview in full with Buttigieg who hasn't thought about it. Okay. Looking forward to your show.

MICHAELSON: Well, he at least said that he has thought about it, which I -- which I appreciate. At least being honest there. Laura, great job tonight. Really appreciate it.

COATES: Thanks.