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Laura Coates Live

Five-Year-Old Boy Taken by ICE; Protesters Charged Over Interrupting a Church Service; Trump Targets Smith; Navy Admiral Fired by Hegseth Speaks Out; Vance Defends ICE Crackdown but Admits Some "Mistakes." Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 22, 2026 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: This Saturday, comedian Andy Richter and influential media journalist Janice Min join "Have I Got News for You" at 9 p.m. on CNN and the next day on the CNN app. Thank you very for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, a five- year-old boy in -- what? A blue bunny hat? Is now in ICE custody after agents took his father. The story is hitting a nerve as we learn more about what really happened. A pastor who knows the boy's family will join me to share new information tonight. Plus, Trump's DOJ delivers on a threat. Protesters are charged for interrupting a church service in St. Paul, and ICE says more arrests are coming for those protests. And is Jack Smith next? Trump is pushing for a new prosecution against a familiar face, right after Smith defended his cases in an open hearing. All tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

You know what, honestly, these images broke my heart tonight. A five- year-old little boy named Liam Conejo Ramos standing with ICE agents in his driveway. Apparently, this little boy had just returned home from preschool. And I can only imagine, like all kids, like my own, he was probably excited to tell his mommy all about his day. Instead, he returned home to an immigration crackdown.

I want you to see these pictures because they're images that, frankly, will be forever tied to the immigration crackdown in Minneapolis. This is little Liam. And he is being held in custody with his father, we're told, at an ICE facility in Texas. And this is a masked federal agent standing next to Liam at his own front door. And since these pictures have emerged, it has been a fight over what actually happened. What are we looking at?

In just a moment, I'll speak with the pastor who knows Liam's family. He is going to share some new information about what his mother experienced.

The full details are still coming together. And we know that his dad picked him up from preschool on Tuesday, and they drove back home. Federal agents showed up. The chair of the local school board saw part of what went down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY GRANLUND, BOARD CHAIR, COLUMBIA HEIGHTS PUBLIC SCHOOLS: I heard, what are you doing? Don't take the child. Like, there are people here that can take him. There was another adult who lived in the home that was there saying, I will take the child, I will take the child. Somebody else was yelling. They saw that I was there and said, school is here, they can take the child, you don't have to take them. And there was ample opportunity to be able to safely hand that child off to adults. And mom was there. She saw out the window. And dad was yelling, please do not open the door, don't open the door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Multiple officials with the school district are accusing ICE of using Liam, this young child, as bait. But the administration is forcefully defying and denying that. They put out a flurry of statements, including one directly from ICE just this morning. And in it, it says, ICE did not and has never used a child as bait. The child was abandoned.

Now, DHS made this post a few hours later, and it says that agents were trying to approach the boy's father in the car when he fled on foot. DHS claims an agent tried to get the mother inside the house to take the boy, assuring her they would not take her into custody. The statement says she refused and that the father told officers he wanted to keep the boy with him.

But there are a lot of other questions like, did Liam's father really flee? Well, the school superintendent was asked about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZENA STENVIK, SUPERINTENDENT, COLUMBIA HEIGHTS PUBLIC SCHOOLS: I've heard that there are accusations that he perhaps fled. Everything I've heard is that he was handcuffed in the driveway. And what we saw when we arrived on scene was the father's car in the driveway, still running.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Another question, was the family here legally? Well, Vice President J.D. Vance was in Minneapolis today and claims they were not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I'm a father of a five-year-old, actually, a five-year-old little boy, and I think to myself, oh, my God, this is terrible. How did we arrest a five-year-old? Well, I do a little bit more follow-up research, and what I find is that the five-year-old was not arrested, that his dad was an illegal alien.

[23:05:00] And then when they went to arrest his illegal alien father, the father ran. So, the story is that ICE detained a five-year-old. Well, what are they supposed to do? Are they supposed to let a five-year-old child freeze to death? Are they not supposed to arrest an illegal alien in the United States of America?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But an attorney for the family says that the vice president has gotten all wrong. He says the boy and his family are originally from Ecuador, did everything by the book, and have no criminal record.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC PROKOSCH, LAWYER FOR LIAM CONEJO RAMOS'S FAMILY: These are not illegal aliens. They came properly. They came legally and are pursuing a legal pathway. There are no crimes here that the family has ever done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Whatever happened outside of Liam's home, one thing is absolutely true. Tonight, a five-year-old, among likely others, is being held inside of an ICE facility.

With me now, someone who knows the family of this five-year-old very well, is their friend and pastor, Sergio Amezcua. Thank you so much for being here, pastor. I know you were not there, but you did speak to Liam's mother who, we're told, was actually home when ICE agents arrived. How is she doing tonight? What did she tell you about what happened?

PASTOR SERGIO AMEZCUA, FAMILY FRIEND OF RAMOS FAMILY: Well, you know, I spoke with her a few times, and she was terrified. They were using this baby. ICE agents were trying to use the baby for her to come out of her house. But the neighbors step up. Neighbors advised her not to do it. The neighbors were trying to get the baby or the five-year-old to give it to her. And this is a pregnant woman with another 13 or 14- year-old boy as well.

COATES: She believes that they were trying to get her to come out. She didn't believe that they weren't going to take her as well?

AMEZCUA: No, no. Absolutely. And I believe her because I've seen how they're acting here in Minneapolis. You know, I'm a pastor from Mexico, and I see how cartels work in Mexico. Just you know, you know, as a pastor, I'm telling you this, ICE in Minnesota is something worse than the cartels in Mexico. In Mexico, cartels don't target kids or pregnant women. And ICE is just not respecting the law.

The difference between ICE and cartels in Mexico is that ICE have immunity here. They killed Renee Nicole. And they're just doing horrible things here in Minnesota. Arresting criminals, a five-year- old. And today, there's a two-year-old missing, too.

COATES: There is. My goodness. Well, I mean, we are hearing stories like this. You know this family. It's more than a hypothetical, more than a story. It is a person. It's a little boy. It's a family. Have you heard from Liam or his father since they were detained?

AMEZCUA: Well, the last time I spoke with her -- I spoke with a person from the school district, and they're taking care of her, and they're trying to help her to get the baby, the five-year-old, back to her. And I'm trusting they're taking care goof of her with their attorney, with some activity members, community members from the community. So, I'm trusting that she will get the baby back, but it looks really, really hard.

You know, just you know, we've been providing food for like 27,000 families since this happened seven weeks ago. A lot of people call me daily with problems. Daily, they call me. So, this person called me at 12 a.m., that they couldn't find the baby. So, I made some phone calls to attorneys, to the chief of police of different cities. And it's just incredible, what we're going through here in Minnesota. You know, it's just -- it's just horrible, what's going on.

COATES: Well, you know, I want you to know, as you have probably heard, DHS is having a very different story. And they are saying that they made multiple attempts to get his mother inside the house to take custody of her child. And the officers say they even assured her that they would not take her into custody. And she was the one to refuse to accept custody of the child. And that the father told officers he wanted the child to remain with him. What is your response to the claims they're making?

AMEZCUA: I think they're just lying like they usually do. There are a lot of witnesses. There were neighbors there trying to prevent them from taking a pregnant woman with another 13-year-old. And the scary part of this is that the mother did not know anything about the boy. It was over 24 hours.

The Columbia High School is the department that was looking for the boy. The Minneapolis Police Department got involved with it. I believe Senator Tina Smith is the one to find out that the boy, around 1 p.m., that the boy was flying to Texas.

At that moment, we did not know whether the boy was with the father or not until later on. And I believe they're together in Texas, in a familiar cell.

[23:10:00]

So, you know, these are the criminals that the ICE is arresting, a two-year-old and a five-year-old. Why aren't they getting the terrorists that they were saying, the drug dealers? It just -- this is just devastating.

And another thing that is happening in Minnesota is that, you know, they're fighting for religious freedom and stuff like that. Latino churches, 80 percent of them are closed. They're not having services. I used to have 500 members coming each week.

COATES: And why do think they're not coming? AMEZCUA: They're targeting Latino people, legal, undocumented citizens, residents. They're arresting DACA recipients. They're arresting people with work permits. They're just -- you know what it looks to me here? This looks like ethnic cleansing. That's what it looks like there. This is racism in the name of patriotism. And that's coming from a pastor, a pastor that believes what the Bible says. And what they're doing, I guess the new pharaoh does not know Joseph.

COATES: The DHS, as you know, they've issued a lot of statements, trying to refute any allegation of racial profiling, have not addressed that specific claim that you have just raised.

I'm going to talk to somebody in a moment who is representing people who were protesting inside of a church in Minneapolis. Do you have any response to those arrests, the people who went inside that church?

AMEZCUA: Well, I've been really busy here in the community. I really believe that houses of worship should be respected, whether they're Christians, Catholics or Muslim mosques. I think people have the right to protect outside -- churches should be protected. I'm not very familiar with what they're doing.

COATES: I understand.

AMEZCUA: But I know that Don Lemon is watching there. My question was, what is Don Lemon doing in a church in Minnesota? But, obviously, I don't know a lot about the case, but yes.

COATES: Well, he was acting as a journalist, he says, and reporting through all sides of the issue. We'll see what he says ultimately. Pastor Sergio Amezcua, thank you so much for being here.

AMEZCUA: Thank you. Appreciate you.

COATES: On the other side, the Trump administration is bringing the first charges related to the protest that interrupted a church service in St. Paul, as I was just mentioning, on Sunday. And for days, Trump officials vowed to arrest anyone who took part in that protest. It was targeting a pastor who reportedly works as a top ICE official as well.

And today, three people were arrested. The organizer, one of them, Nekima Levy Armstrong, who we interviewed on this program just a few days ago, and protesters Chauntyll Allen and William Kelly. All three are charged with conspiracy to deprive rights. The acting ICE director vows more arrests are coming. But the lawyer for Armstrong is defending her actions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORDAN KUSHNER, NEKIME LEVY ARMSTRONG'S ATTORNEY: And they went there to express their opinion about what this church was doing and why it was wrong to hire a high-level ICE official as a pastor of the church, someone who's overseeing all kinds of human rights violations on a daily basis. That person shouldn't be a pastor. This was a religious protest. It was a protest by religious people against a religious institution. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, I want to bring in James Cook. He is the attorney for Chauntyll Allen and also William Kelly. James, thank you for being here. You know, I went through the allegations or what was at least alleged right now, and they seem to have been charged with conspiracy to deprive rights. The FACE Act was not necessarily implicated here. But do you have a clear understanding of what the charges really are? I saw things crossed out, put back. What are they facing?

JAMES COOK, ATTORNEY FOR CHAUNTYLL ALLEN WILLIAM SCOTT KELLY: So, specifically, I'll just kind of read from it, it's conspiracy to deprive religious rights in violation of the -- in violation of the FACE Act. And so, part of it was crossed out. The actual FACE Act was crossed out, as I understand it.

COATES: Do you have a sense of why these people were charged as opposed to -- we see a number of people who were inside the church. What was it about? Your particular clients that made this list?

COOK: I don't know. I can't -- I can't tell you. I can't predict what was in their mind when they were actually charged. But these are high- profile people, right?

Miss Allen, she's a school board member, very outspoken critic of the administration. She's one of the people that takes girls, gathers young Black girls, young girls of color, and takes them on tours of historically Black colleges. And then you also have in terms of my client. The other client is Mr. -- well, he's known -- he's an influencer who's known as the woke farmer. He's also very, very outspoken, very anti-establishment.

[23:15:00]

He has a lot of views online. He's kind of the new media. I'm assuming, because they're high-profile, they're very outspoken about the administration. They spend a lot of time doing activism.

COATES: I mean, these are pretty serious charges that they're both facing. They could carry 10 years in prison if your clients are convicted. Obviously, this is the very infancy of this case. But what do you anticipate your defense will be?

COOK: So, I mean, let's just talk about what happened today. The first thing that happened today was that they were actually -- actually, let me just back up a second. I want to make clear that these charges are brought in federal court. All right? And, you know, it's a little bit different than bringing them in state court. But, basically, I have -- although I'm representing them, I have to -- you know, I have to associate with a local attorney who's actually admitted to the federal court. So --

COATES: Understood.

COOK: So, kind of a different animal altogether. The second thing is that the government lawyers, when they came in, seemed like they're completely unprepared. So, I mean, that's a defense in and of itself.

COATES: How so?

COOK: Well, I kind of felt like they didn't really have a handle on the facts. And, you know, that they weren't quite sure how the conspiracy portion, you know, how the conspiracy to deny rights fit in with in violation of the act. They couldn't quite articulate that.

COATES: Did the judge question them on that? You mean in your conversation with them?

COOK: I think that the counsel -- that is the counsel that I associated with. And also, Jordan Kushner (ph) made it very clear that that was the case, that there was, you know, sort of a lack of understanding of the facts and the law.

COATES: Your clients, I understand, they both attended service before actually the official protesting. According -- I interviewed Nekima Levy on this very issue. Do you think that the fact that they were already inside at the time during the service, it wasn't for the full duration of it, will that impact your defense strategy as to how you will try to defend your clients from the serious charges?

COOK: I -- that will come into play. I mean, it's one of those factors that you have to consider. But, again, I mean, we're talking about basically what amounts to a peaceful protest in the church. Yes, they may have been, you know, challenging the priest, but I don't think that, in any way, some of the allegations, for instance, that they caused people to fall down when they were leaving the church. I mean, those are just completely false accusations. So, I mean, just looking at the facts alone, you can just defend on that.

And, by the way, I just want to make clear that, you know, the clients were actually about to be released, right? Miss Armstrong and also, you know, Miss Allen, they're about to be released. And at the very last minute, the defense or the defense -- the prosecution made a motion to stay the release, pending a review of the judge's order to release them. So -- and then, after that, as the judge said, it's out of his hands. So, you know --

COATES: They want -- they want them held.

COOK: They want them held. They want them held.

COATES: Yes.

COOK: And that's -- that was clear to me today.

COATES: James Cook, please keep us posted. We're following this very closely, as you can imagine. Thank you so much.

COOK: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, another thing we're following very closely was Jack Smith's testimony, and it was public on the Hill, and it was the first time that he was able to do so. He says he won't be intimidated, even as the president of the United States tells his attorney general that Smith should be prosecuted. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett was at the fiery hearing, and she joins me next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK SMITH, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: President Trump was charged because the evidence established that he willfully broke the law, the very laws he took an oath to uphold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:20:00]

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Mr. Smith, do you believe that President Trump's Department of Justice will find some way to indict you?

SMITH: I believe that they will do everything in their power to do that because they've been ordered to by the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Former Special Counsel Jack Smith seems all but assured tonight that he'll be charged by the Trump administration over his role in prosecuting the president's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Well, it should come as no surprise to him then that shortly after his testimony ended, Trump urged the attorney general to do just that. Quote -- "Based on his testimony today, there is no question that deranged Jack Smith should be prosecuted for his actions."

You'll recall that for years, the president accused Smith of engaging in a political witch hunt against him. So, what did Smith say today that had the president lashing out? Well, for starters, he stood by both of his investigations into Trump, saying he'd it all over again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged in criminal activity. If asked whether to prosecute a former president based on the same facts today, I would do so regardless of whether that president was a Democrat or a Republican.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Joining me now, one of the lawmakers on the House Judiciary Committee in that hearing today, Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett who, as you know, is also running for Senate in Texas.

[23:25:01] Congresswoman, thank you for being here. I know you're very busy with the work that you are doing. I want to begin with the fact that this was the very first time really that Jack Smith may have had his day in court, so to speak, publicly. He has wanted to testify publicly. You had advocated for that as well. Do you think that his ability to do so today was a good thing?

REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): I do. I was receiving text messages as the hearing was going on from all kinds of people, other lawmakers, as well as just people back home that were watching. And so, I think that it was an opportunity for America to see the credibility of the person who has really been put on trial when it comes to the public opinion, right? And that has been by the president. He has consistently said all kinds of nasty and threatening things about Jack Smith.

But Jack Smith, as a prosecutor, and you know how this goes, as a prosecutor, he's not a political figure, so this is somebody who was kind of in the shadows. And basically, Jack is like I am going to stand by my work. The only reason these charges got dropped is because you became president. And we know that that's why he ran, was so that he could avoid prosecution.

COATES: You know, you made the point earlier today as well that he had been criticized more for whether he had the authority to prosecute --

CROCKETT: Yes.

COATES: -- more than the actual substance of the allegations --

CROCKETT: Yes.

COATES: -- that grand juries indicted him on. Why do think Republicans focused more on really process more than the result?

(LAUGHTER)

CROCKETT: Because it didn't work out very well for them, right? They didn't want to talk about the actual subject matter. The subject matter was the fact that the president needed to be prosecuted.

And as I stated today, I am almost positive that if Jack Smith would have had his day in court and prosecuted the president, well, the president would be under the jail right now. But, unfortunately, he never got to see that day for a number of reasons. One obviously involves Aileen Cannon who is a Trump-appointee and, basically, I would just say, a Trump flunky.

COATES: Obviously, she is the judge who still has a remaining kind of gag order on the classified documents report out of Mar-a-Lago. So, he was constrained to some degree of what he could actually say. Many believe there was a perjury trap that was already being set from his presence. And also, would he violate that order and get himself in hot water? Even without that, though, President Trump is calling for him to be prosecuted. In a long line of people, he is already called to be prosecuted. Your reaction? CROCKETT: Correct. Just like most of the other prosecutors that he has gone after, who are sound prosecutors that went after not the president, but they followed the evidence, and the evidence led them to this idea or the conclusion that the president is a criminal. And let me remind people, he is a 34-count convicted felon who was convicted by a jury of his peers.

And so, I know that Jack Smith is really tight on this. You know, I sat in the closed-door deposition that he delivered where he talked about volume two and basically said, I'm not allowed to speak about that because of an order, right? And so, they were consistently trying to get him even behind closed doors. And so, he has been very careful and methodical like a good prosecutor would be.

And regardless of whether or not he respects Aileen Cannon as a judge or respects her lack of ability to process things in the way that we would expect of a jurist, he still respects the law. And that is the one thing that I want people to understand, is they were going after him and saying that this was nothing but a witch hunt and that it was weaponization. In the midst of all this drama, he's still saying that this rogue judge has a court order, and he's abiding by that. That tells you everything that you need to know about who he is.

COATES: And yet they were criticizing his career as a prosecutor. He went to great lengths at different points to make sure he was differentiated from the person, Jack Smith, and the role of his office and representing the Department of Justice. Obviously, prosecutors are fungible. It's the people versus an issue.

But there was an issue that really got under the craw of Republicans like Jim Jordan, and that was the subpoenas for phone records. Now, these subpoenas did not actually get the substance of the phone calls.

CROCKETT: Yes.

COATES: No one is wiretapping through it.

CROCKETT: No.

COATES: It's actually quite common. But you get the fact that a call was made and the duration and the telephone numbers. But then there was also a point about confidential sourcing in the payment. Did either of those two points, either in the first time you heard him behind closed doors or now, do you think that impacts his credibility?

CROCKETT: No, absolutely not. The fact that he got toll records -- remember when the Senate decided to add in, when they reopened the government, $500,000 payments? Now, can you imagine that basically, you decided that you were going to be on a phone call with a criminal, a defendant, right? And basically, as they are trying to develop their case and they are trying to figure out like who was were making what phone calls into who and to how, that's all they were, was toll records. These were not wire taps, right?

Interestingly enough, today, I also dealt with MLK and the declassification of those documents. [23:29:59]

And we were talking about Hoover and how Hoover tapped MLK's phones, right? Like this is what the federal government did. And I also --

COATES: That's the substance of the call, not just the existence.

CROCKETT: Exactly. Not just the existence, right? But we know that this federal government, as they said that, oh, this was a weaponization by this rogue DOJ under the Biden-Harris administration, which is very weird, too, because, you know, Biden was coming in, but, oh, they should, but nevertheless, and this was a special appointed prosecutor, right?

But the idea that they have the audacity to make these arguments in a time in which ICE, of all organizations, has decided that they are going to spy on people, that is crazy. Like you're mad that somebody sees that you made a phone call, yet you have nothing to say about, especially on today where we went through our funding bill and you increased the funding to ICE, ICE is now the fifth largest funded military in the world. That is crazy.

And they are consistently violating people's constitutional rights. That's not a violation of your constitutional rights whatsoever.

COATES: Identify the part about the spying. What is the reference you're making to ICE being allowed to spy? Are you talking about a memo to go in people's homes or something more?

CROCKETT: No. Right now, what they are doing is getting technology to actually get at people's cell phones --

COATES: OK.

CROCKETT: -- and that information. And so, to me, I don't know how far they're going to go with that, but that's what they're doing now.

COATES: Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, thank you for joining.

CROCKETT: Absolutely.

COATES: Up next, an admiral fired by Pete Hegseth says she's not done serving. Her comeback? A congressional campaign. Admiral Nancy Lacore is with me for an exclusive interview, next.

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[23:35:00]

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COATES: She served for 35 years, flew multiple tours as a naval aviator, and earned some of the military's highest honors, including the Legion of Merit. You know, last August, three-star admiral and former chief of the Navy Reserve, Nancy Lacore, was removed from her position by Secretary Pete Hegseth. And according to Lacore, she was fired without cause. Well, tonight, Lacore says that she is not giving up on her service to this country. She is launching a run for Congress as a Democrat in South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY LACORE, FORMER REAR ADMIRAL, U.S. NAVY (voice-over): I was removed from my position without cause, along with dozens of other senior military leaders. After I left the Pentagon that day, I never put the uniform on again. But I am not done serving. My love of country is why I put the uniform on in the first place, and it's exactly why I can't stand by while Americans and South Carolinians are struggling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Retired Vice Admiral Nancy Lacore joins me now. She's running for the seat currently held by Nancy Mace. Admiral, thank you so much for joining us this evening. I remember when this happened. I'm curious because you say that you were fired from your position without cause. The Pentagon, they've not commented on your claim. But they also -- they never outlined any specific misconduct or gave any reason for your dismissal. So, why do you believe you were fired?

LACORE: Well, let me first correct you, if I may.

COATES: Of course.

LACORE: I am a retired rear admiral. I served as a vice admiral, but I did not serve long enough to retire as a vice admiral.

COATES: Thank you.

LACORE: I'm a retired rear admiral.

COATES: Thank you.

LACORE: Yes, of course. Yes, I'm extremely proud of my 35 years of service in the Navy. You know, I served in what is arguably the world's most incredible Navy under presidents of both parties. And, you know, I'm proud of every minute of that service.

And when I was told to go home last summer, that's what I did, just like many other senior military leaders. I was not given a reason. But, you know, just because I can't serve in uniform doesn't mean I can't serve our country in another way, and that's why I've chosen to run for Congress, to serve the Americans and the people of South Carolina's First District.

COATES: Many people are looking to Congress to solve a great many problems and also a change they see of the culture in America more broadly. I know you decided to run for Congress, but what do you think you can do to change the people's perception of Congress's powerlessness?

LACORE: Well, I think if you connect it to the military service, we don't really care in the military what your background is, where you stand on the political spectrum, what you believe. We work together as a team. Americans first, sailors second. We work together to get the mission done.

And that's what we need to do in Congress. We need people who are going to be there, who are willing to break the gridlock and get stuff done that is going to improve the lives of Americans and, in my case, South Carolinians.

COATES: You know, obviously, that is very optimistic, and everyone does want that unified feeling. I do wonder, on the political spectrum, given that you are running as a Democrat, there is a spectrum, even among one particular party, as to what you believe in. You are running for a very red seat held by a conservative, Nancy Mace. Can you describe your position within the spectrum for Democrats?

[23:40:00]

LACORE: Of course, yes. As you know, I don't have a political background, I have a military background. And in the military, we don't really have labels. You know, we have ranks, of course, and ranks matter, but we don't have labels. And like I just described, it's more about just locking arms and getting the mission done. And that's really what I'm all about. You know, I'm in there, I'll roll up my sleeves, I'll work with everybody that I need to work with to make the lives of Americans and South Carolinians better.

COATES: A number of ex-military, as you know, members in Congress, they're now under investigation for participating in that video that tells service members that they can refuse illegal orders. There has been a chilling effect that people have described as potential from that retaliation. Do you feel any concern about potential retaliation if you speak up about your experience or the administration?

LACORE: Am I concerned about retaliation? No. Do I think it's a possibility? Yes. And I think if you look at what's happening right now with just say, for example, Senator Mark Kelly, it's a very real possibility. And honestly, it's actions by the administration, actions like that, what they're doing to Senator Kelly, that make me want to run. Like it's clear that this administration doesn't value service and doesn't value our veterans.

And I just -- I want to be a part of that. I mean, I can't really focus on that. You know, I just need to get focused on this race, it's going to be a tough race, so I can get myself into Congress and make things better.

COATES: Given your military background, do you have any statements to make about people that you have worked with or spoken with about what they feel under the leadership of Secretary Pete Hegseth?

LACORE: Yes. So, you know, service members don't want to talk about politics. That's not what we do. We're an apolitical organization. At least, you know, we have been, maybe until the past year. But I think people are concerned. You know, I mentor a lot of women in particular who are just wondering if they can keep doing this. They don't feel that they're valued.

COATES: Indeed. I hope that changes knowing the incredible value and the service that you have all provided to our nation. Thank you so much for joining us this evening.

LACORE: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: Up next, one of these images is real. The other was digitally-doctored by the White House and posted online. They call it a meme. Others call it alarming. Our political insiders are going to debate.

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[23:45:00]

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COATES: Well, it was subtle, but noticeable. A slight change in tone from Vice President J.D. Vance on the administration's ICE crackdown. Just two weeks ago, he was, well, defiant in the press briefing and braiding the media about the coverage of the killing of Renee Good. Well, today, he was in Minneapolis where he defended what ICE has been doing, but admitted, it's not all great.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: The president said this a couple of days ago: Whenever you have a law enforcement operation, even if 99.99 percent of the guys do everything perfectly, you're going to have people that make mistakes. That is the nature of law enforcement. It doesn't mean that there aren't occasionally stories out there, there aren't occasionally videos out there that suggest that these guys or at least some of the people who work for them are not doing everything right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: With me tonight, former senior adviser to President Biden's 2020 campaign, Alencia Johnson, and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Brad Todd. I'm glad to have both of you guys here. There's a constant battle between rhetoric tactics, policy tactics. The word "tactics" is always there. And it seems that the vice president is still 100 percent supportive of ICE as a proposition. But there is an echoing of what President Trump had to say even at a day about mistakes can happen. Is this recognition about maybe losing the audience when it comes to tactics here?

ALENCIA JOHNSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR THE BIDEN 2020 CAMPAIGN: Yes, they are literally losing the audience when it comes to tactics regardless of your political affiliation. When someone is being killed in broad daylight, that is more than a mistake. When you see a baby, literally a child, a five-year-old, you opened the show with this, literally being detained, you can't just say these are tactics.

COATES: Yes. JOHNSON: This is actually cruelty. And it's really frustrating, especially coming from a Republican Party.

COATES: I don't want to stop you up because you're so -- I think what you say is so important. I want to hear it. We have a problem with your microphone. So, I want to rectify that. I don't want anyone to lose your sage thing. So, Brad, talk to me for a second while we correct her microphone about the tactics. And do you think the administration is softening on the tactics or thinking to themselves, we're losing the audience here?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I don't know that those are different things. I mean, they can -- the vice president today said that we did have -- mistakes are going to be made. And they also said that when they're made, there'll be cases where there'll be an investigation from the officer. That's a -- that's also a pretty important measure to take in to account here.

One thing the administration is doing is trying to enforce immigration laws in the interior. And I am sure they're making a lot of mistakes. I'm sure there are things that they're doing and procedures they're doing that that are new and novel and that probably do need to be changed.

I think that we should acknowledge, however, that we do have a really large problem that has happened. We have allowed the back door of the country to be opened. The country soundly rejected that.

And I certainly hope that the administration and Homeland Security will constantly modulate their tactics and learn from the mistakes that they're making. And they do have to keep the confidence of the American people. That's part of being in the governing party. And you have to keep the confidence of the public in your mission and in the way that you are carrying out your mission. So, I hope they'll do that.

[23:50:00]

COATES: I want to play for you, guys, some sound here for a moment because the vice president was also defending that internal memo we talked a lot about yesterday. This is the one that suggests that ICE can enter a person's home without a warrant so long as they have an administrative warrant. So, there's the administrative and there's the judicial one that you think about in terms of being signed off on based on a probable cause that the crime is committed and evidence will be found in that location, right? So, here is what Vance had to say on this today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: Well, our understanding is that you can enforce the immigration laws of the country under an administrative order if you have an administrative order. That's what we think. That's our understanding of the law. That's our best faith attempt to understand the law. Again, this is something courts will weigh in on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Talk to me about this, Alencia, because the tactics, in terms of what we're seeing visually, then there's the memorandums that seem to say what you can do in violation of, well, the Fourth Amendment. Discuss to me what is happening in terms of the community opposition and how this might translate to Democrats and the power they could have.

JOHNSON: Look, you mentioned community opposition and you see the community rising up against this because they are literally looking at this from a standpoint of humanity. This is inhumane, for you to say that it's OK to go door to door and that I should be following certain types of tactics or protocols. But the reality is they're not actually enforcing those among these ICE agents.

But I want to actually step back and think about what recently just happened. You had a protester arrested because she was calling out the hypocrisy of a pastor who is also doing the bidding of ICE. And one would say that the party that believes in Christian principles is actually doing the very opposite thing.

I wrote a book, "Flip the Tables," and that was about Jesus calling out the hypocrisy of people. He flipped over tables in the temple. And so, I'm wondering how this party that likes to throw around Bible verses but is OK with the way that ICE is operating, the way that they are doing this inhumane, violent sort of surveilling of people based on their own racial profiling or the fact that they're going up against them, it's really disturbing.

And I think the Republican Party, particularly Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, and the administration is seeing this backlash that crosses party lines and it is literally about protecting people.

COATES: It is fascinating to see the way in which the religion has entered the conversation. Obviously, it was the house of worship they were going into, so that was going to be by design. But now, the conversation has really been broadened out into how voters should assess the ICE employees and also tactics.

But I want to talk about this doctored photo because one of the people who has professed what you've talked about actually on this show, mentioned the flipping of the tables that you mentioned, is Nekima Levy Armstrong, who's one of the people who was arrested. And on the left is a doctored image of the true photo of her arrest today where she had a stoic expression, was not emotional, but it was doctored by the White House.

And I wonder, Brad, just thinking about this, one thing they said in response to it was that they were angered that people were focusing on supporting somebody who was a protester and that the memes would continue, thank you for your attention. Why use the official White House machinery to promote doctored images like this?

TODD: Well, first off, I'm 55 years old, and I'm not quite in meme culture. And I don't really love meme culture. I think it's probably corrosive to our democracy even though I love free speech. I think you ought to have a right to say stupid things, but I think memes are mostly stupid things and they don't help. I probably would prefer the White House to communicate in a more official manner than that.

And, again, I will take issue with Alencia' s point, though. The woman who is in question here is a professional agitator. She has been running protest operations for a long time.

JOHNSON: She's a lawyer.

TODD: She also runs a cannabis operation now, which is her right to do so. But she is a professional agitator. And she wanted to target not the pastor of this church but the congregation. She said this will not stand, they cannot pretend to be a house of God. You can see the protesters in that church literally screaming in the face of the parishioners there. Now --

JOHNSON: They're calling out the hypocrisy of the church. If you are going to follow Christ's Christian principles, you cannot be doing and supporting what ICE is doing. You cannot be OK with that when the fact is that Jesus himself, his family, were seeking asylum at some point in his life. And so, I wouldn't call them just agitators, I would call them people who are doing the work to liberate the oppressed people, call out the hypocrisy of those in power, and use Christ's name.

TODD: I go to church with a lot of people who disagree with my politics. And we are there all because we need the saving grace of God. And those people, if you want to worship with them --

JOHNSON: Jesus also came to liberate them.

TODD: -- and approach with them on an equal basis, that's what they should do. Write a letter to the editor if you want to protest their politics.

[23:55:00]

COATES: Or you can watch the interview that I had with the Nekima Levy Armstrong on my social media and decide for yourselves. How's that for a good night prayer? Alencia, Brad, thank you both.

Up next, it's award season and this year's Oscars is already history making. We'll tell you why after this.

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COATES: It's almost midnight here in the nation's capital, which means it is time to bring in our friend, Elex Michaelson, out in Los Angeles where, of course, the Oscar nominees are officially out. "Sinners" has gotten more nominations than any other movie ever. A total of 16. I know you've seen it. But, tell me, were you surprised for even this number?

ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I was surprised by this number. The most ever -- the previous highest was 14. And "Sinners" had really been snubbed at the Golden Globes, didn't win any of the big awards that it was potentially going to win that was a favorite for. So, to have this kind of showing from the Oscar voters is quite something.

[00:00:03]

But just because a movie is the most nominated does not necessarily mean it's going to win Best Picture. We've seen that many times in the past. "Sinners" has not been thought of as the favorite for Best Picture. That has been thought of as one battle after another.

COATES: Yes.

MICHAELSON: Maybe that changes after this. I hope so. I liked it the best. I thought it was my favorite movie of the year.

COATES: I mean, it had two Michael B. Jordans. Winner! Have a great show, Elex.

(LAUGHTER)

MICHAELSON: Thanks, Laura.