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Laura Coates Live

Anti-ICE Protests Continue in Minnesota; Philadelphia Sues Over Removal Of Slavery Exhibit; Brendan Banfield Expected To Take Stand in Wife's Murder Trial. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 23, 2026 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right. Go ahead, Xochitl.

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS AT JUSTICE DEPARTMENTL; FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR DNC: My son says that school be shut down until Wednesday. That is his prediction. So, I need a babysitter. Anyone on the block who would like to babysit, you are hired.

PHILLIP: This is like -- that's like some kind of --

(CROSSTALK)

I say Tuesday. I think Tuesday, they'll get their act together. Maybe longer in D.C. All right, everybody, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight." Catch our Saturday morning conversation show tomorrow morning, "Table for Five," 10 a.pm. Eastern. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: An FBI agent resigns over the Renee Good case as thousands in the North Star State take a stand to push back against ICE. Tonight, a look at the alleged abuses that are fueling Minnesota's anger. Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF KEVIN JOYCE, SHERIFF, CUMBERLAND COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: When I say bush league, I really mean bush league. We don't do that as law enforcement officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: A local sheriff in Maine strikes a chord as he calls out ICE's tactics in a controversial arrest. The sheriff is going to join me live tonight. Plus, new evidence of another attempt by the administration to erase history. Now, a slavery exhibit in Philadelphia has been removed. Could a lawsuit bring it back? Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

Our opening statement tonight, the people of Minnesota are not backing down. Today, thousands of protesters filled the streets in Minneapolis, braving sub-zero temperatures. We're talking absolutely frigid. Today's high was minus nine degrees. Businesses across the city went dark. And tonight, they filled the Target Center, home of the Minnesota Timberwolves. The demand was simple. Federal agents need to leave.

The administration says it's not that simple and ICE isn't going anywhere. And they're trying to make it very clear that officers are there simply to arrest criminals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREGORY BOVINO, U.S. BORDER PATROL CHIEF: We're going to take again these criminal aliens off the streets that you see behind us and that I've shown you this morning. We're going to take them off the streets wholesale. It's on. We won't quit.

TRICIA MCLAUGHLIN, ASSISTANT HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: These are patriots who are risking their lives to arrest criminals. I can't give you a timeline on how long we will have a footprint there, Martha. I mean, we will remain in Minneapolis forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, Trump's team across the board trying to play up the amount of criminal arrests they have made, and it lines up with our brand-new reporting tonight that sources tell us that President Trump is getting frustrated that his immigration message is getting buried. He wants to take control of the narrative. Maybe it explains that impromptu briefing at the White House this week. We know he held up mug shot after mug shot of people arrested in his crackdown.

But Minneapolis and cities across the country, people are not buying that message or the tactics. And the anger did not start nor has it ended with the tragic killing of Rene Good. ICE's overwhelming presence, their tactics all have prompted widespread and continuing criticism. We've seen aggression towards protesters. We've seen U.S. citizens detained. We've seen accusations of racial profiling.

And in the last few weeks, we've seen several more faces who have really challenged the administration's narrative of who they're targeting, like five-year-old Liam Conejo Ramos, who is in ICE custody with his father. Now, DHS claims his mother refused to take Liam after his dad allegedly abandoned him when ICE officers showed up outside their home. School officials say the agents used him as bait. Here's what his principal told CNN tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON KUHLMAN, PRINCIPAL, VALLEY VIEW ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: The way she described it, that her Liam was pounding on the door and saying, mom, please let me in, please let me in. She knew that she had an older son that she also had to watch out for. And so, that's why she didn't go to the door. She knew that she would also be picked up and taken with them, leaving the older son alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: What a choice. This past weekend, we saw the detention of Chongly Scott Thao. ICE agents bashed open his door, leading him outside in the icy cold and only his underwear. DHS accused Thao of living with two sex offenders who they say were the intended targets of the operation. But Thao's family says he has never lived with either one. And get this, a Minnesota official confirmed that one of those sex offenders they say was in the house was already in prison.

And then there's Renee Good.

[23:05:00]

People in Minneapolis are furious the federal government is not investigating the agent who shot her. Instead, they're focusing on Good herself, along with her widow. And tonight, we have learned that the FBI agent who initially investigated her shooting has now resigned.

The administration, they want this to be just about criminals. People in Twin Cities, they see something else. They see a very wide dragnet that belies the narrative being told.

And I'm joined now by the mayor of Saint Paul, Kaohly Her. Mayor, thank you so much for being here. It's very difficult to watch what has been going on in my home state, in my hometown. And I want to ask you about the detainment of American citizen Chongly Scott Thao. And he didn't commit a crime, yet ICE agents still entered his home and detained him, I understand, while looking for sex offenders. Now, the DHS, they suggest that the arrest wouldn't have happened if state and local law enforcement had just worked together. Can you describe how you see the problem?

MAYOR KAOHLY HER, SAINT PAUL, MINNESOTA: I see the problem as federal agents who are not complying with people's constitutional rights and human rights. And that whether they have partners or not in this work, they are not following the law. And so, of course, the outcome they're going to get is that people are upset about how they're behaving.

And so, I don't know how they expect a different outcome than what they are getting when they are breaking down people's doors, when they are looking for people who are no longer at an address, when they are looking for anyone who just might be Black or brown and has an accent. I mean, I don't know what other outcomes they were expecting when that's their target and that is how they're operating.

COATES: I mean, we're just watching the footage of him walking outside in the brutal cold. You know him personally, I understand. Thao is Hmong, and the Twin Cities is, as you know, home to largest Hmong community in the United States. You told a congressional field hearing last week that even you have received advice to carry your passport as the mayor of St. Paul. I am curious, one, how Thao is doing tonight after what has happened, but also how you feel and people in your city feel about whether the Hmong community is being targeted.

HER: The Hmong community absolutely has been targeted. And the truth is that this isn't something new. I started going into check-ins with people with removal orders at the Whipple building back in June already. And in the summertime, there were a number of weekends in which the Hmong community was specifically targeted by ICE.

And so, what we're seeing now is just an escalation of what this federal government has been doing, is targeting people from different communities that are immigrant and refugee. And so, you know, I am not surprised that we are in the space that we are now with heightened tensions because they have been actually operating and targeting communities for over half a year now.

COATES: And we've been following the story of this little boy, this five-year-old, Liam Conejo Ramos, who was detained with his father in Columbia Heights. That's actually not that far from you. And the district says that now four of its students have been taken away by ICE. How are cases like this impacting not only the community but even attendance at schools?

HER: We're seeing across the board, you know, that children are not going to school. I happen to, you know, be visiting a specific market, and there were kids at the market. And I asked, you know, this little girl who was -- you know, she told me that she was in elementary school, in sixth grade. And I asked her if she had school that day, and she said she did. And she was -- she didn't use words, but she was nodding. And I asked if her she was afraid, and she said, yes, she was. And I said, are you -- do you have school today? And she said, I do. And she gave me a hug. And I could see that her eyes were starting to well up.

Kids are afraid to go. Parents are afraid to let their children leave the home. We are seeing parents ripped away when they're taking children to school. We are seeing now children being used as bait to try to get other people. Families have every reason to be afraid, and children have every reason to not want to leave their families and their homes because they don't know what's going to happen.

COATES: The DHS has been very vocal, particularly about a claim that they use children as bait. They say they do not. They say they have not, in the case of Liam in particular. But, as you point out, the optics for many people are hard to ignore.

Not even the president of United States has been ignoring the optics. He seems to be frustrated, according to sources, that the crackdown in the Twin Cities is happening. And he seems to want to change the narrative. One senior White House counsel saying or official saying -- quote -- "There's an effort underway to come up with new ideas and new ways to amplify the good work they are doing."

[23:10:00]

I assume the good work that he's referring to is, I guess, the work of ICE agents who are not engaging in the tactics you're talking about. But what is your reaction to that and this strategy?

HER: Well, first of all, I don't know why the White House is surprised at the outcome that they are getting when they have said things like there's a retribution to be paid and that they were going to punish us, cities and states, for our position and us being a blue state.

When they are clearly saying that you can break down people's doors with immunity, that you can go after citizens and people by the way that they look, I don't understand how it is that they are confused at the outcome that they are getting around. They didn't lose the narrative. This is the narrative they created.

And when your actions and your words do not match, when you tell us you're going after hardened criminals and people who are national security threats but all we are seeing is you're going after people who are American citizens, the Somali girl, the young Somali girl who is just going out to get her seizure medicine and for them to take her, she's an American born citizen, you lose the narrative because that was never your narrative, it was that you were actually doing good work to get hardened criminals.

COATES: Mayor, how do you keep the people of Saint Paul hopeful?

HER: Boy, I think that what keeps us hopeful is the love and the care that our community has for each other. And the only way that we're going to do that is to stay true to our Minnesota roots of loving and welcoming immigrants and refugees to our state.

COATES: Mayor Kaohly Her, thank you for joining.

HER: Thank you for having me, Laura.

COATES: Two weeks after the death of Renee Good, we are learning new details about the investigation into her death. Sources tell CNN an FBI agent who initially began investigating the shooting has resigned. Apparently, she opened a civil rights investigation and was working with Minnesota's Criminal Investigation Bureau. But soon after she started that investigation, she was ordered to reclassify the probe as an investigation into an assault on the officer.

With me now, former assistant U.S. attorney in Minnesota, Douglas Kelley. Welcome. I'm glad you're here, Douglas, to help me unpack this because I remember the vice president yesterday saying that there was an investigation into Good's death, but this resignation tells me more about how that probe actually unfolded, doesn't it?

DOUGLAS KELLEY, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY IN MINNESOTA: Oh, it certainly does. And Laura, welcome to Minnesota where we seem to have an unprecedented legal event every week. And, you know, it does not surprise me. This agent who resigned had to be a senior agent. She was a supervisor of a squad. That's an important squad here in Minneapolis.

And, you know, if it was just left to the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the FBI, they would have worked things out fine. But when people from up above start putting their finger on the scales, that's when people leave. So, this lady leaves, six assistant United States attorneys leave.

And basically, Laura, I'm told that the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, is really the one that's calling the shots at the U.S. attorney's office now.

COATES: I don't know how that could possibly help the credibility if that's the case. And thinking about Renee Good, the fact that she has -- this FBI agent has resigned, could that --

KELLEY: I've lost hearing.

COATES: Could you -- can you hear me now, Douglas? While we get his sound back up, the question I'm really wondering about tonight is given the fact that this FBI agent has resigned, I wonder, Douglas, if the fact that they have resigned, is that going to help Renee Good's attorney in their case they're trying to do, in lieu of the fact that there's no investigation at the DOJ about it?

KELLEY: Well, I'm sure that they would like to talk with her. I don't know. They probably will have to file a lawsuit and subpoena her and get legal process in order to do it because the government will do everything they can to keep her from talking.

COATES: Yes.

KELLEY: But, certainly, if I were them, I would want to talk to her and find out what that story is, and it got to be helpful to the Good family.

COATES: I would absolutely want to know and what her investigation, albeit short, what it even revealed at the very infancy of it.

Also, meantime, three people who were charged over the protests at a church in St. Paul, they are out of jail for now. And we actually have our first look at the affidavit. And in it, someone states -- quote -- "This is just the beginning of this clandestine operation that they're doing here because of some inside information that they got. I don't think we can go ahead. I don't think we can go inside, right? No."

Now, we don't know who said that, their name redacted, but that conversation apparently happened outside the church. What impact would this have?

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KELLEY: Well, I suppose that's more intent to go in and disrupt the service, and I expect that's what they'll probably do. And I know that they -- I have not seen the affidavit yet, Laura, but I'm told that there are also additional individuals whose names have been redacted, and I'm sure they will be arrested in time to come here. So, yes, I did not know they had. That's a video -- excuse me, audio. Tape- transcribed, is it?

COATES: It seems to be an affidavit of just words that were possibly overheard. I'm not -- I guess this is part of the problem. We don't have full view and transparency into all of it. Of course, everyone is wondering how they will ultimately meet their burden of proof. We are at the very early stages.

But there's also this issue happening, the debate over the ICE memo. Again, speaking of lack of sunshine, the ICE memo that claims agents can go into people's homes with an administrative warrant, not a judicial one. It turns out, apparently, that a federal judge ruled that using that type of warrant violated a man's rights in the case of this raid that happened earlier this month. Is the judge right?

KELLEY: Yes. And Laura, I think this secret memorandum, which seeks to overturn hundreds of years of precedent, is a really bad red line that we're crossing here in our democracy. I look at the ICE people who are here almost as a paramilitary organization, and they have been given a quota by Stephen Miller. No matter how often Mr. Bovino gets up and says, we're doing targeted calls and we're following the law, that reminds me of don't believe your eyes, believe what I say.

And so, this memo is really scary when somebody in the general counsel's office can say, you know, we think we're -- the Fourth Amendment is not really applied here and we can just do this on administrative warrants. Several judges have thrown it out in Minnesota. It will not stand, but it gives you an idea about what they're thinking and what their tactics are.

COATES: I mean, can the ICE officers, knowing the Fourth Amendment, can they push back on orders that appear to undermine that?

KELLEY: Well, they certainly should. But, you know, we know what happens to people who get in the way of the Trump administration. They'll try to run over them.

Think about this, too, Laura. So, they all got all these new agents that are just being trained go to the national law enforcement training center. All the written materials say administrative warrant is not good enough to forcibly enter somebody's house. And now, they have this secret memo. And we'll tell you about this verbally so you can -- you can follow this. But, you know, I mean, it's just ripe for -- so they're lied to from the very beginning when they start out. So, it's really a terrible event, I believe.

COATES: I mean, there's also these outside attorneys that the DOJ is, I guess, seeking to bring into the state. What kind of impact will they have on how the U.S. attorney's office is operating, have all these other people coming in?

KELLEY: Well, Laura, first, they were bringing in JAG officers. Those came in from the Pentagon. And then there was -- you reported on CNN that there were supposed to be 30 more of those. There were already some ICE officers or ICE attorneys as well. I think they now -- the non-Minnesotans outnumber the Minnesotans, which is a telling thing. And Pam Bondi said the other day, she's going to try to recruit assistant U.S. attorneys from our neighboring states.

So, the picture that I'm getting is in an office that I have every respect for is that it is an office in disarray.

COATES: Unbelievable. And remember, there are many cases that AUSAs, federal prosecutors, are handling that are outside of the purview of immigration, of course. And those are not being tended to, I'm sure, with the diligence that people would want to secure justice. Douglas Kelley, thank you so much.

KELLEY: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: Up next, there's a legal fight. It's over the erasing of history. A slavery exhibit ripped out and removed in Philadelphia. All why? To comply with the administration's orders. One of the people who fought to have it installed in the first place is my guest, next.

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COATES: Well, now, the immigration raids are in Maine and controversy followed right along with them. Look at this video from Portland. Federal agents swarmed and detained a man in his car on Wednesday. Now, DHS claims he was here illegally. You can hear the man say that he's a corrections officer, and the local sheriff confirms it. He says the officer is legally allowed to work in the United States. And now, the sheriff is furious at how this went down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOYCE: What's even more disturbing is the comment made by the witness that videotaped this encounter, who said that in three minutes, they got out, they pulled a guy from the car, handcuffed him, put him in the car. They all took off, leaving his car with the windows down, the lights on, unsecure and unoccupied.

[23:25:04]

They left it right on the side of the street. Folks, that's "bush league" policing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I'm joined now by the Cumberland County Sheriff, Kevin Joyce. Sheriff, thank you for being with us tonight. I mean, so many people resonated with your words. I have to ask, first, do you know if the corrections officer is still in detention?

JOYCE: Good evening, Laura. Yes, as far as I know, he is, in an unknown location outside of the state of Maine.

COATES: DHS tonight is claiming in a statement that the officer is from Angola and illegally crossed the border in 2019. And they added this: Quote -- "A law breaker being employed as a corrections officer at a county jail is shocking." What's your response to their statement?

JOYCE: Well, I think that kind of goes back to about a year ago when I and a hundred other sheriffs in the nation listened to Tom Homan and listened to the fact that the process was going to be that they were going to lock down the borders and they were going to get all of the criminal illegal aliens off the street. And, you know, I left that meeting thinking I can't disagree with that.

What we're seeing here with my corrections officer is that he applied. He had an I-9, which gave him the right to work in the state of Maine. The county's H.R. department made sure that he was legal to work there.

We vetted this guy. He took a polygraph. So, he did not commit any crimes whatsoever. In fact, the worst thing he did was he had one alcoholic drink in his life. We did a background check on him. And he was cleared to work. He was going to the academy when this occurred. Last November, he left the academy and went to Texas to take care of some immigration issues down there. So, this was an employee that not only was a new American trying to get a job in the state of Maine, but he was also trying to take care of his immigration status.

And that doesn't meld well. As I mentioned, the book doesn't match the movie when you listen to Tom Homan talking about getting criminals off the street and locking down the borders, and then this individual has not committed any crimes whatsoever, but is trying to get his immigration status taken care of so that he can live and work in the state of Maine.

COATES: You also add your frustration just watching the tactics of detaining the man that you describe. I mean, you point out just how many federal agents it took to detain him. And you said it was more than your department uses to arrest dangerous criminals which, by the way, is not sounding like the man you've described. What do you make of these tactics?

JOYCE: Well, you know, again, it's a show, right? I mean, it has all been a show. I was infuriated that this guy's car -- in three minutes, they stopped the individual, the corrections officer. They arrested him, put him in their car, and took off, leaving his car on the side of the street, running with the lights on and the windows down and the keys in the car.

To me, that isn't good police work. We're responsible for the car in the state of Maine if we stop something. We arrest the person, and we'll wait for a tow truck or we'll see if somebody will come pick up the car or we'll see if we can park the car, lock it up, and give the keys to the individual.

If the city police department, Portland police rolled up on this vehicle parked with the lights on, running, and no one in it, that's going to create another stir. That's the best-case scenario. If somebody steals the car, then you have a stolen vehicle with this guy's -- all of his belongings and stuff. I mean, this is a human being. This is not a statistic for ICE.

And unfortunately, I'm all about ICE and I'm not against ICE, but when I see these types of things where an individual is trying to become a legalized citizen or at least be legally, they're always getting pushed down by just being picked up and arrested. It goes against what I was told a year ago.

COATES: Does it make you question whether you can trust DHS? JOYCE: Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's funny that all of a sudden, now, they're releasing information on this guy. I called yesterday after the arrest to ask what he was arrested for, and answer was he's illegal. And so, you know, I tried to go through the rest of the story. He hasn't committed any crimes. He has gone to Texas to try to take care of his issues with immigration. So, I guess, if you're not a car carrying member or a car carrying U.S. citizen, then everybody is illegal that doesn't have that paperwork.

[23:30:02]

It's ridiculous. Now, all of a sudden, they're forthcoming with information. My lieutenant this morning called because we would do an internal affairs investigation on this guy as we would do for anyone who's arrested an employee, and we refused the paperwork because it's an ongoing investigation, yet I guess they're releasing the information.

COATES: Stunning. Sheriff Kevin Joyce, thank you for telling us.

JOYCE: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, history deleted. A slavery exhibit ripped off the walls all because of Trump administration order. The city of Philadelphia, they're fighting back.

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COATES: So, remember when the president complained about how exhibits at the Smithsonian focused on -- quote -- "how bad slavery was?" Well, he wasn't just thinking out loud. Just the last year, we've seen countless examples of the administration trying to scrap any mention of things like slavery or racism, diversity from federal property and institutions.

And the latest example, an exhibit at Philadelphia's Independence National Park titled, "The Dirty Business of Slavery." You're looking at crews ripping those display panels out of the walls just yesterday. And the location is pretty notable. It's right outside of the former home of President George Washington and President John Adams who, of course, were slave owners. Now, tonight, the city of Philadelphia is suing the National Park Service to restore the exhibit.

But how is the administration justifying this? Well, they say they're just following the president's executive order to -- quote -- "review interpretive materials to ensure accuracy, honesty, and alignment with shared national values."

Joining me now is Michael Coard, an attorney and founder of the Avenging the Ancestors Coalition, who fought to actually have that very exhibit installed in 2010. Michael, welcome. What was your reaction when you first learned that the exhibit was being ripped from the wall?

MICHAEL COARD, ATTORNEY, FOUNDER OF AVENGING THE ANCESTORS COALITION: Well, first of all, Laura, I want to thank you for having me on. In response to your question, I wasn't surprised, I wasn't even shocked. We knew from the president's executive orders in January of 2025, his executive orders in March of 2025, and his interior department secretary, Doug Burgum, directives in May that this was coming. In fact, we knew that it was coming as soon as September 17th. So, I got to tell you, it was no surprise as to what happened yesterday.

COATES: And yet it was installed over a decade ago. The organization that you have fought tirelessly to even have it installed. Tell me about the difficulty in getting it up in the first place.

COARD: You know, it's interesting because my organization, Avenging the Ancestors Coalition, ATAC, we were founded 24 years ago in 2002 when the Liberty Bell Center moved to the site at 6th and Market where the President's House stands.

I want to be clear about something. The President's House was there since 1790, from 1790 to 1797, and it actually served as America's first White House. We found out that George Washington, but not John Adams, enslaved nine Black men, women, and children from among the 316 he enslaved in Mount Vernon, Virginia.

And my organization fought for eight years, 2002 to 2010, and we won that battle on December 15, 2010, with the grand opening of the first, I repeat, the first slavery memorial of its kind on federal property in the history of the United States of America. Everything was great, Laura, until it wasn't, and it wasn't when the current president was sworn in in January of 2025.

COATES: I mean, the Department of Interior, Michael, which oversees the Park Service, they say that they're just complying with President Trump's executive order. I want to read to you what that order says. It instructs the agency to -- quote -- "ensure that all public monuments do not contain descriptions, depictions, or other content that inappropriately disparage Americans past or living."

Now, what was actually written on those displays?

COARD: You know, it's interesting because an executive order, and I say this as an attorney for more than 30 years, an executive order is not a law. So, to simply say that, hey, we're complying with an executive order means absolutely nothing. It was never passed by Congress. It was never sanctioned by the U.S. Supreme Court. So, it's not even worth the paper it's written on.

Having said that, the key phrasing here is one of the executive orders from the president in March of 2025, where he said he was upset -- quote -- "with sites that inappropriately disparaged Americans past and living." Inappropriately disparaged, that's the whole thing here.

So, what we say is this: I'm going to make an argument that George Washington was a great general. Make that argument. If you want to make the argument that George Washington was a great president, make that argument. Question we pose is this, Laura: Can you be a great human being when you hold 316 fellow human beings in brutal bondage under slavery?

[23:39:56]

So, what we tried to do was to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about American history. But then the guy comes in, and he decides he wants to censor American history, but we're not standing for it and we're fighting back and actually winning.

COATES: I mean, this is but one example where the administration is trying to rewrite, many would say, sanitize, bleach or all but erase things that they deem to be too woke. They're phrasing. We're seeing it at the Pentagon. We're seeing it at the Smithsonian. And just a few months ago, we covered the removal of a display honoring Black World War II soldiers in another country.

So, how do you ensure still that history does not get lost in spite of all this given what you say is the goal, which is to have a fair debate or conversation about facts placed in history?

COARD: Laura, great question. And what I suggest people do first is read or reread George Orwell's 1984, because what he said is about what's happening here. In 1984, George Orwell wrote the following: Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

So, what the president is trying to do is to make it appear that things that happened in Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, in the United States didn't happen.

So, what people have to do is what people of good minds have always done in America, Laura. They stood up and fought back. And that's what we've done. When we fought that battle from 2002 to 2010 to get the site, it was a difficult battle but we won. If we won that battle in 2010, we can win this battle in 2026. And with some of the top notch, A-list lawyers and law firms that are working with us, we have no doubt whatsoever that justice will be done, especially on the eve of the 250th anniversary of the birth of this country.

COATES: Michael Coard, thank you.

COARD: Thank you and have a wonderful evening.

COATES: You, too. Next, there is a stunning announcement in the double murder trial dubbed the au pair affair. The man who is charged with killing his wife and another man apparently plans to take the stand. Could it help or sink his case?

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COATES: So, it's the question every defense attorney must decide eventually. Do you or do you not put your client on the stand? Well, the defense in the au pair affair murder trial has made up their mind, and Brendan Banfield will testify in his own defense.

There's no denying that's a risky gambit, especially in a case like this where he is accused of being the mastermind in a plot to kill his wife, pin her murder on a male escort he catfished to the scene, allegedly, all so he could be the family's hero and with the au pair that he was having an affair with, who, by the way, testified under oath that he did this.

Now, his defense says the au pair has zero credibility. It's up to a jury, isn't it, to ultimately decide who really is telling the truth.

Joining me now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams. He is also the author of the brand-new book, "Five Bullets: The Story of Bernie Goetz, New York's Explosive '80s, and the Subway Vigilante Trial That Divided the Nation."

Elliot, this is a really captivating case. I wonder what you think. Is it the right move for the defense, for him to testify?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I really think it's almost never the right move for the defense to testify just because you subject a defendant to cross examination. And also, this is not a particularly sympathetic defendant. I'm not saying he necessarily gets convicted, but all of these allegations of catfishing and bringing in escorts and cheating on your wife with the -- it's just something that juries, I think, aren't going to look favorably on personally. I just -- putting him on the stand is just subject to just too much drama.

COATES: Right now, it's a he said, she said.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

COATES: The au pair not particularly favorable either. And yet, earlier in the week, the defense tried to suggest that law enforcement had already sort of made up their minds and prejudged the case, undermining a claim they had a good investigation. Listen to what one detective said when testified.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: We had a briefing within the first week of the incident where we were discussing everything that everybody had done and the information that we -- was collected. And our supervisor at the time told us there were two theories in the case, and we needed to get behind the right one. I told Lieutenant (INAUDIBLE) in the room full of investigators that at this point time, nobody should have a theory in the case, that we are still at the very beginning and we should only be investigating and gathering facts and information.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): And how was that received?

UNKNOWN: He -- there was no response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: That's good for the defense.

WILLIAMS: It's good for the defense. But you explain it away in closing and say law enforcement, they debate cases, they figure out what their theories are. Maybe someone on the team thought that there was one way to go about it. Maybe another person on the team disagreed and they hashed it out. I think you can explain that away. I think the inconsistencies in the au pair statements are going to pose them far more trouble than that.

COATES: I want to talk about this book. I actually couldn't wait to talk about it, "Five Bullets."

[23:50:00]

It is fascinating, really compelling, about the infamous case of the subway vigilante, Bernie Goetz. Tell me a little bit about him.

WILLIAMS: Yes, really quick. So, Bernhard Goetz boards a subway car in New York City. There are four Black teenagers on that subway car. They're rowdy, they're acting up. He says that they threatened him and that he felt like he was about to be mugged, so he pulled out a gun. He always carried an illegal firearm, an unlicensed firearm. Shot all four of them with five bullets. They all end up seriously injured, one of them brain damaged and paralyzed as a result of the shooting.

It really polarized New York and the country somewhat on racial lines, but also just politically, and it was sort of this big inflection point in American politics.

COATES: You actually interviewed him for the book.

WILLIAMS: I did.

COATES: What was that like?

WILLIAMS: He is all over the place. And as a 78-year-old man, is just unrepentant about the shooting. He really -- I asked him the question, ultimately, do you feel you did a public service by doing the things you did? And he ultimately said, I think we even have a graphic of it, it's -- I -- those guys needed shooting. That's not why I shot them, but they needed shooting.

When I -- throughout my talking with Bernie Goetz, you know, it was almost this -- again, like public service, like he thought he was just really doing something good for society, almost eugenics in a weird way. But to be clear, you know, this is -- by interviewing him, I was not legitimizing him or any of that, I just thought to make this a full three-dimensional work, I wanted to talk to him and also try to speak to the victims as well. But, wow, my conversation with Bernie Goetz were nuts.

COATES: You put it all in the book. It's really, really compelling to think about what that conversation really told, particularly the times we're in when you've got current cases where people have been either debating the good of vigilantism or condemning it wholesale.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

COATES: But this also talks about the origin story of a lot of people we know today who really, in many ways, cut their teeth with this case.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

COATES: People like, well, Mary Giuliani.

WILLIAMS: Yes. So, it's funny, the issues we're still living with today, race, crime, vigilante, self-defense and so on. But literally, many of the people that some of whom I interviewed for the book, but they're still on the national scene today, Rudy Giuliani, Al Sharpton, Curtis Sliwa, Rupert Murdoch, and interestingly, the National Rifle Association, which was starting to get into Second Amendment defense and funded his trial in part, his defense in part, all of these folks got something out of this trial, growing into the entities they are today.

So, really, it is stunning how many roads, starting in New York, began with this trial and carried over into our world today.

COATES: You interviewed him. You tell the full story here as well. You talked to the victims, you said?

WILLIAMS: I tried to talk to the victims. I got as far as getting on the phone with two of the sisters of Darrell Cabey, who's the one whose brain damaged and paralyzed. They ultimately just told me they didn't want to be on the record for the book. They supported it, but didn't want to speak, I think. It has been 40 years of trying to move on. I really wanted to round it up, like I used the term three- dimensional. I would have loved to hear from them, tried really hard, didn't happen.

COATES: This book is incredible. Well done, my friend.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: Elliott Williams, thank you so much. The book again is "Five Bullets."

And a quick correction earlier in the show during our segment on the removal of the slavery exhibit at the President's House in Philadelphia. I misspoke. The House was occupied by both presidents Washington and John Adams. Of course, Washington owned slaves. Of course, Adams did not.

Next, a climber set to scale a skyscraper with no ropes, no harness, live on Netflix? So, how did his test run go? We have the brand-new heart-pounding footage next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Well, it's almost midnight here in the nation's capital, which means it is time --

(MUSIC PLAYING)

You know what that song means? You know that song means? Elex Michaelson is coming on from L.A. This is your new theme song right now. But it's awesome because it's "The Climb." It's "The Climb."

I want to see that Alex Hannold's climb at skyscraper in Taipei, but they postpone it until tomorrow because, of course, weather. You don't have that problem in L.A. But he is going to do it without ropes, without a safety net. I mean, look at him doing the test run today. I personally am stressed out thinking about this and, of course, my karaoke rendition of Miley Cyrus. What's he doing?

ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I'm amazed we have the music rights to play this, but great.

(LAUGHTER)

It's the most expensive show we've done on CNN all day.

COATES: Ain't about how fast I get there or get sued. It's about the climate. There you go.

MICHAELSON: I think this is -- I think this is crazy. I don't know why somebody would want to do this. But, clearly, there's a huge audience for it. I mean, the numbers on Netflix, when it happens, are going to be absolutely through the roof. I mean, hundreds of millions of subscribers. They're the best at doing live events, and they'll turn this into a whole thing. And you got to watch, right? I mean, it's like watching car chases here in L.A., like you don't know how it's going to end.

COATES: I mean, is there a white Bronco coming? Sure. I have to watch it. But here's what I thought was really funny. Here's how he said he's going to celebrate.

[00:00:00]

He said -- quote -- "I'll take the elevator down, I'll see my wife, we'll be psyched. We'll eat at the buffet that night -- it's a really nice buffet -- it'll will be great, and that will be the day. Then I'll go home, and I'll go back to my climbing practice."

But for the climbing up the big skyscraper, that's usually my Saturday night.

(LAUGHTER)

MICHAELSON: You're a big buffet fan?

COATES: I mean, big buffet, bill (ph) buffet, buffet is a buffet. MICHAELSON: Can't go wrong with a good sizzler.

COATES: Or an Elex Michaelson show. Have a great one.

MICHAELSON: Have a good weekend, Laura. Thank you so much.