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Laura Coates Live

White House Shows Signs Of Retreating Over ICE Backlash In Minnesota; Trump Faces Growing Backlash; CNN Provides Analysis Of Pretti Shooting; Friends And Family Testify On Alex Pretti's Character. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 26, 2026 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: However, it does appear that he was watching T.V. this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: I get the sense that the president, if you look at his comments in "The Wall Street Journal," I think he wants to take a look at this thing. He is going to look at the video. I get the sense he wants to deescalate. You know, I would hope that maybe a fresh set of eyes, Tom Homan going in there taking control of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And 21 minutes later, Trump posted he was doing just that, sending Tom Homan over to Minnesota.

Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Tonight, cracks in ICE. Trump removes Gregory Bovino from Minnesota and brings in his border czar, Tom Homan, as backlash hits a fever pitch. Is the administration about to change course? Well, Minnesota's Tim Pawlenty and Dean Phillips will be my guests live tonight. Plus, Trump officials portraying Alex Pretti in a way the video simply doesn't show. How their words might impact the legal fights against the administration. And later, civil rights attorney Benjamin Crump on the calls for justice for Alex Pretti and what he says is the legal case ahead. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

You know, we're seeing tonight something we don't normally see from this administration. It's a messaging retreat. Usually, it's a default setting when the backlash hits. You know, deny, then you dig in, and you double down maybe a second or third time. We, of course, saw all that after Renee Good was shot and killed by an ICE agent, didn't we?

But after federal officers killed Alex Pretti, after Americans saw all those videos, the White House seems to have gotten at least a part of the message. This looks bad. Yes, that's an understatement of the year. It looks bad. The administration is now trying to distance itself.

And the president is trying to distance himself from the most extreme talk coming from his team. He's suddenly playing nice with Governor Tim Walz and Mayor Jacob Frey.

And the biggest tell of all, well, Minneapolis residents fed up with ICE are saying tonight, bye-bye, Bovino. He is, of course, the face of the immigration crackdown in the city. While he's packing his bags and heading out tomorrow, we're told, you might remember the border patrol chief from moments like this, where he's throwing gas canisters into crowds of protesters.

But even though he is leaving, it doesn't mean ICE is going with him. The operation is not ending because Trump's border czar is now coming in, and that's, of course, Tom Homan, who is expected to take over his immigration crackdown in Minneapolis.

But I want you to imagine something, if you will, because this tone shift may have come down to one thing. Can you imagine if no one had filmed what happened to Alex Pretti, if there had been no cellphone footage, no various angles, just the words of Kristi Noem?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: This individual went and impeded their law enforcement operations, attacked those officers, had a weapon on him and multiple, dozens of rounds of ammunition, wishing to inflict harm on these officers, coming, brandishing like that, and impeding their work that they were doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Or the words of Greg Bovino?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREGORY BOVINO, U.S. BORDER PATROL CHIEF: This looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Imagine. Imagine you get only their words. It would be a figment of your imagination, wouldn't it? Because here is the reality. I mean, we all saw it, right? He had a cellphone in his hand. And the public has an absolute right to film law enforcement. Full stop. If you're not interfering with their work, their desire to not want to be filmed is irrelevant.

He had a gun in -- what? The back of his waistband? I didn't see it brandished. Did you? And it seemed to have been removed before he was shot and was already, it looks to be, on his knees.

He also had a license to carry that weapon. And any statement that he didn't have an I.D. on him is not relevant to a Fourth Amendment question of whether officers could have reasonably believed that it was kill or be killed. Unless maybe he answered a question that they asked or he told them he had one in seconds before he was shot. They wouldn't have known that. They couldn't have known that, right?

[23:05:00]

There was a search that at least I saw. And as for this statement?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Any gun owner knows that when you are carrying a weapon, when you are bearing arms, and you are confronted by law enforcement, you are raising the assumption of risk and the risk of a force being used against you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Or this one from Kash Patel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR, FBI: No one who wants to be peaceful shows up at a protest with a firearm that is loaded with two full magazines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, that doesn't jive with the Second Amendment, the things we've seen recently at protests that were lauded by him and others. In fact, show me where in the Constitution the Bill of Rights or any of the amendments are either (INAUDIBLE). I thought we would exalt all of them.

And don't take my word for it. I mean, I take it from the, well, the NRA. It slammed the idea that people who legally carry are at risk of being shot by law enforcement, saying public figures should not be demonizing law-abiding citizens. But even if the NRA is saying slow down, will the administration pump the brakes really? Because even if the White House is backing off the rhetoric, it's not clear if anything will change on the ground.

Let's go right to the ground because we got CNN's Shimon Prokupecz who is in Minneapolis. Shimon, tell me, the community must be reacting to the fact that the borders czar is coming in and Greg Bovino is leaving. What are you hearing on the streets?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, certainly, there is some cautious optimism here, right? Greg Bovino was such a polarizing, such a divisive figure in this city, and really in other cities as well, when you look at what he did in Chicago and parts of Illinois. I mean, he walked the streets and acted as if he was in charge.

He's a border patrol agent on the streets of this country, in these caravans filled with his border patrol agents, riding around these towns, drawing attention, escalating situations, using tear gas, throwing flashbangs, throwing smoke bombs. You're doing all kinds of things that escalated the temperature here.

So, certainly, the community leaders here, certainly, the people who have come here to observe a moment of silence, to be here in the area in which Alex Pretti was killed, they are certainly relieved. And most importantly, I think it's the law enforcement community here and the mayor and the other official and state leaders that are starting to feel a little relief of hope, of hope that this is coming to an end. I actually spoke to the police chief here tonight, Brian O'Hara, and got his response to this new news. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: Are you hoping, by him leaving, there is some deescalation?

CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA, CHIEF, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: I hope that's what this means. Yes, absolutely. You know, I -- nobody in law enforcement is saying federal law enforcement should not be enforcing federal law. That's ridiculous, right? But I don't think it's unreasonable to think that federal law enforcement should operate the same standards and professionalism that the rest of law enforcement in this state does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And, you know, Laura, you know the law, you know the Constitution. Brian O'Hara, this chief, has been so concerned about the behavior here from the border patrol agents and ICE officers. I mean, he has called it unconstitutional in some cases. He told me that some of his own officers have been stopped while they've been off duty. Really, the fear is everywhere here.

The other thing is, he says to me, is that the tactics that they were using here reminded him of policing from what you did 30 years ago. And his fear is that all the work that they have been doing to try and work with this community, to keep these relationships with this community going since George Floyd, he worries that some of that could be lost because of this. And he said, we're going to have to continue to work with the community to make sure that they continue to trust us.

But he's got a lot of interesting stories to tell. He's one of these police chiefs who are certainly on the law enforcement side, so concerned about what has happened here. And now, he hopes, he hopes that there is some de-escalation and they could figure out how to work with federal law enforcement going forward.

COATES: I mean, yes, sure. And there was a mass exodus following the Derek Chauvin trial and allegations. I have Benjamin Crump --

PROKUPECZ: Yes, yes.

COATES: -- talking about what it has been like at that time compared to now and how the legal battle continues. Shimon, thank you for being there. I appreciate you so much.

[23:10:00]

PROKUPECZ: Sure. Yes.

COATES: You know, as Bovino gets ready to leave Minnesota, a federal judge is considering whether to stop the administration's immigration crackdown altogether. My legal experts to unpack it all are with me right now, former assistant U.S. attorney in D.C., Greg Rosen, and the former head of policy at ICE under President Biden, Scott Shuchart. Thank you both for being here.

Just a lot has happened even since the last time we spoke. We've got another killing. We've got Bovino -- is he stepping down? Is he being relocated or reassigned? What's happening there? We're told not stepping down, but no longer in Minnesota. Tom Holman is coming in.

Scott, I want to start with you because there is a suit right now to try to curtail the administration's operations in Minneapolis. I suspect other states are watching this as well. And a federal judge in the suit is admitting that she is struggling to try to find the line between legitimate federal responses and illegal coercion that's taking place. Is there a line if you got these 3,000 federal agents on the ground?

SCOTT SHUCHART, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR REGULATORY AFFAIRS AND POLICY, ICE: I don't know. I mean, that's supposed to be why there's cooperation between the feds and the locals. You know, the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction to prosecute misdemeanor trespassing. That's what the local police are for. General disturbing the police, that's what the local police are for. This is supposed to be a partnership.

And what has been so dangerous is the way the federal government has come in like the 8,000-pound gorilla, not communicating, not coordinating, and not creating the opportunity for, you know, peace to be kept through both sides doing their distinctive roles. So, if this de-escalation means that there can then be meaningful engagement with local law enforcement, I think that would be a positive step.

COATES: Could a judge order that sort of coordination? I mean, we've seen consent decrees in prior administrations that have obviously been rolled back when you have a federal body that's trying to exert pressure on a state body in law enforcement. But that might not happen here. Could it?

GREG ROSEN, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: I think it's probably unlikely that a court could order meaningful cooperation between state and federal officials without consent and buy-in from both of those parties. And so, you know, we use this word a lot, unprecedented. You know, you're dealing with essentially a mismatch between the policy goals, between state and local officials.

COATES: You've got the discussion about immigration. Then you've got sort of the pork, so you say, if it was a bill. You've got the idea of urging Governor Walz now to hand over voter rolls suddenly as one of the conditions to remove federal agents. Remember, this is an immigration crackdown that they were talking about. The idea of voter rolls, though, I mean, why would that be requested? And does that violate state or federal law?

ROSEN: So, again, going back to this concept, unprecedented --

COATES: Unprecedented.

ROSEN: -- the reality is it's not clear what the legal basis is to commandeer a lot of these requests. What the judge and what you saw Judge Menendez looking at today was -- she brought this up and said, doesn't this feel like the government is trying to achieve policy through force? And that's kind of what it feels like, perception being reality. What you have is the attorney general requesting something that seems completely untethered from the legal objectives, which is to go into Minnesota and deal with what they perceive as the immigration problems.

COATES: So, why is it even mentioned? It is untethered to most people. There has been, in past campaigns, discussions and accusations that there have been undocumented persons who are on the voting rolls illegally. But is that really tied to this immigration crackdown or anything that ICE would be looking at?

SHUCHART: I mean, it's hard to peer into what's going on in the president's mind, but it all does seem to kind of flow from this just baseless conspiratorial worldview that somehow, the Somali community in Minnesota is responsible for law breaking, illegal voting, that they're being protected by the governor, and that somehow, a show of force could -- what? I mean, uproot all these American citizens? It doesn't really make sense, but it seems to be part of the same kind of cluster of fears.

COATES: What I found interesting in terms of fear is the idea that the state, they're suing to preserve evidence out of fear that it will suddenly disappear into the night and never have a full-throated investigation. We've already seen the Renee Good investigation disappearing into the night, if at all, at that point in time. Should the court take DOJ at its word, that they are preserving or they have the best interests of the public at heart at this point?

SHUCHART: I think this government has entirely lost the presumption of regularity that the court --

COATES: Even from a judge?

SHUCHART: Especially from a judge at this point. They have shown how many times that they try to play cute, they try to, you know, say things that are maybe technically true or maybe not even technically true. If I were a judge, I would put everybody to their proof right now.

COATES: It's a good point to think about how every statement of a prosecutor culminates. I mean, what happened with Abrego Garcia, for example. Kilmar Abrego Garcia out in Maryland. What statements were made about a flight taking off? These are all things that the government has said or not said. It adds up even for judges in separate cases because the credibility across the board can be harmed.

[23:15:04]

ROSEN: What you are seeing is, to use his words, the presumption of regularity, which is largely enjoyed by the government for a time. The memorial is now collapsing before our eyes. And judges of both political parties or I should say appointed by presidents of both political parties are routinely questioning routine application of facts and law from parties that should otherwise be trusted.

And that is dangerous for a lot of reasons, to include policy initiatives and implementation of law. It's also just dangerous to not believe that your government is an honest broker in that respect.

COATES: Jury pools across the country. Let me think of the same thing. We'll see what happens in cases unlaid to any of these matters. Greg Rosen, Scott Shuchart, thank you both so much.

The shooting of Alex Pretti breaking through in a way we haven't actually seen before as Republican governors and senators and House members dare to speak out and question the administration's approach in Minnesota. Finally, will the president heed the message? Former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, former Minnesota Congressman Dean Phillips are live with me next to debate it all.

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[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Republican criticism growing over Alex Pretti's fatal shooting involving federal agents in Minnesota.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): I think that the situation is only going to get worse. And I really think that there are so many cities in the United States that have issues with criminal illegals that I think they would be -- they would be better received in other cities.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): What I think the administration could do better is the tone with which they're describing this.

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX) (voice-over): They, being the White House, need to recalibrate on what needs to be done. I know that they're working on a game plan to make sure that they're going to let's say recalibrate, maybe work from a different direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But that's not all. The chair of the Senate Homeland Security, Republican Senator Rand Paul, quickly calling on three top immigration enforcement officials to testify next month. And Senator Bill Cassidy warns the credibility of ICE and DHS are at stake.

Here to discuss, two prominent Minnesota political figures, former Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips and former Republican Governor Tim Pawlenty. Glad to have both of you here. I'm going to pick your brains here. Governor, I'll begin with you. Do you think this is the tipping point for Republicans? TIM PAWLENTY, FORMER MINNEAPOLIS GOVERNOR: I think it is an inflection point, Laura. For the first time, particularly as it relates to the immigration issue, you're seeing some elements. The Republican Party and some voices in the party begin to step back a little bit in the wake of the Pretti -- shooting of Mr. Pretti.

And when you have an individual -- again, we don't know all the facts and we have to wait for them to come out. But it looks like he was unarmed and shot up to nine times. And that raises serious questions and concerns. And that should be across party lines. And everybody should share those questions and concerns. I think that's why you're seeing some of this walk back.

COATES: Governor, is the question or concern about what? The presence or the tactics or the scope of the crackdown?

PAWLENTY: Well, I think the Pretti incident and tragedy, if it turns out to be a tragedy and, of course, it is, but it relates to over a reaction or excess by ICE, and it sort of capsulizes what other people were perceiving.

But there's also other issues going on here, including, you know, why won't the locals cooperate? Why didn't they help set up a perimeter? Why do they have sanctuary city laws? And the list goes on and on. But the good news is the president and the governor and mayor are finally starting to talk in a way that might allow them to climb down the ladder and deescalate to a more approachable and more manageable level.

COATES: Congressman, how do you see it, given the questions that were raised by the governor just now in terms of sanctuary cities and cooperation with local law enforcement?

DEAN PHILLIPS, FORMER MINNESOTA REPRESENTATIVE: Laura, I think it's an extraordinary moment and perhaps a grand opportunity. And I want to first start by saying how honored I am to appear with Governor Pawlenty, a man I believe has great integrity, served our state with honor. And I hope we're demonstrating tonight that Democrats and Republicans, the vast majority of us, not only want to get together and talk, but we respect each other. And I certainly do, Governor Pawlenty.

You know, we're seeing now MAGA unraveling a little bit, we're seeing the tactics of the far-left coming into the spotlight, and I think we're seeing the majority of Americans, center right and center left, finally saying, you know, enough is enough. What we're seeing in Minneapolis is horrifying.

And to see the president of the United States, Donald Trump, capitulate is a very rare moment, at least during his recent tenure. And it took some courage, frankly, for both he and Governor Walz to have that conversation and back off the ledge a little bit because we were walking down a path that could have been irretrievable.

But tonight, I'm a little bit optimistic. And I think he made the right decision. I think Kristi Noem and Greg Bovino were the core problems here. Poor leadership, poor preparation, and incompetency. And that's not a political statement, that's just a fact. And I think their removal bodes well for Minneapolis and for the country.

COATES: Well, Bovino is certainly going home. We'll see if it unfolds past that. But I want to play for both of you the words of Republican Chris Madel who is ending his bid for Minnesota governor. And one of reasons he says is because he's calling national Republicans' retribution as part of the reason he's doing so and Minnesotans to step away. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS MADEL, DROPPED OUT OF GUBERNATORIAL RACE: I support the beginning of Operation Metro Surge, the idea of getting rid of the worst of the worst, and they did some of that. But it has gone so far beyond that goal that it just got to a point where I just literally cannot support that.

[23:25:01]

I can't look my daughters in the eye and say, yes, I'm doing the right thing by continuing this campaign, by being a member of this effort.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Governor, you also wanted to say that national Republicans have made it nearly impossible for a Republican to win an election in Minnesota. Those combined, what's your reaction?

PAWLENTY: Well, Minnesota hasn't voted for a Republican for president since Richard Nixon. And a lot of political scientists believe that was a wave year and you have to go back to Eisenhower if you want to look at it. So, to say that it's only recently that Minnesota has struggled in terms of statewide elections, electing candidates, I think that's a bit of revisionism.

But clearly, Minnesota is a light blue state. President Trump's approval ratings are slipping even in the immigration handling category. And that's not helping matters when it comes to Republican candidates statewide trying to get elected in the state of Minnesota, for sure.

COATES: So, congressman, I mean, Senate Democrats, they're vowing not to find ICE after Alex Pretti's fatal shooting. Do you think that Tom Homan possibly taking the reins will avoid a shutdown based on that premise?

PHILLIPS: Well, I'm sure optimistic and keeping my fingers crossed. Of course, change, you know, had to be imposed. This was not working. It was a national tragedy. And I think his arrival in Minnesota already, just in the last number of hours, there has been a palpable change in the temperature in Minnesota. And I think that bodes well for the future and a good start. But time will tell. You know, once these become national political issues, it's very complicated to express the truth. And I want to speak on behalf of all the Minnesotans watching right now, red and blue and rural and urban. This has been one of the most horrifying number of years in certainly my life in Minnesota. I would imagine Governor Pawlenty as well. And it's not just those hiding in their homes, those communities at risk. It's every Minnesotan who is fearful right now for our country's future.

And I hope Mr. Homan's arrival, I hope President Trump calls on his better angels to do better for all of us because this is a grand opportunity. And it starts with all of us doing a little bit less door dashing, little bit less screen time, little less anger-tainment.

Getting back out together, attending the Minnesota State fair, and recognizing our shared humanity, that, to me, is the solution. It's not going to be political. It's not going to be another government shutdown. It's going to be people, everyday Americans, saying enough is enough, and breaking bread together, giving each other some hugs and handshakes and high fives. That's what I think is the solution.

COATES: Congressman, I'm a working mother, don't take my door dash away. I don't know what you're talking about for that one discrete point.

(LAUGHTER)

Thank you very much. Now, governor, one more thing for you. Second Amendment advocates, they're pushing back a great deal on the notion from a DOJ official that approaching an officer while carrying a concealed weapon may actually justify a shooting. Do you think the administration is turning on gun rights to defend the federal actions?

PAWLENTY: Well, Laura, I was the governor in Minnesota who signed that concealed carry bill into law two times, by the way, so I'm very familiar with it. It's not illegal or inappropriate for a lawful permit holder to have a weapon on him or her in a public place. That by itself does not constitute an illegal or inappropriate act. And anybody who suggests that under Minnesota law is just not being accurate or fair.

COATES: So, what should the response be given the fact that they already made these statements? The FBI director, Kristi Noem --

PAWLENTY: Well, the response should be that they're wrong. It's an incorrect reading of the law. It's not how it works. You or I or Congressman Phillips could go into a public place with a permit and a handgun in Minnesota as long as you don't cause any other, you know, issues that are illegal, that your presence with that gun is not inappropriate or illegal. So, the people who are asserting that are just either ill-informed or they're just wrong. It's as simple as that.

COATES: Dean Phillips, Tim Pawlenty, thank you both.

PAWLENTY: Thank you, Laura.

PHILLIPS: You're welcome. COATES: Next, a new look at the shooting of Alex Pretti as we track the agents involved in the critical moments before and during the scrum. And my next guest says it's all critical to understanding how this unfolded. Donell Harvin is standing by at the magic wall to explain it all for us. And later, with Tom Homan coming into Minnesota and Greg Bovino coming out, what about Kristi Noem? A former top ICE insider joins me tonight to talk about whether it spells trouble for her.

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[23:30:00]

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COATES: Tonight, the White House says there are multiple investigations into the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. And these videos will be key. Just like you at home may have been watching them to figure out what happened, investigators are analyzing these videos to piece together those final, fatal moments.

Donell Harvin joins me now. He's a former chief of homeland security and intelligence for Washington, D.C. and now teaches at Georgetown University. Donell, I'm glad you're here through expertise. I need you for this because there are three moments that you have actually identified that are really crucial in the investigation. I want to go with the first interaction between Pretti and a federal agent.

DONELL HARVIN, FORMER CHIEF OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: Absolutely.

COATES: What do you see?

[23:35:00]

HARVIN: So, let's go to the first interaction. You know, this is a freeze frame. This really refutes what DHS has said, that this individual was interfering with ICE, had approached them with a firearm. In every video that we've seen so far, obviously, we don't have all the evidence, he is actually standoff.

Now, the action is actually off this frame right here. They're in front of a donut shop. Alex Pretti is at least 15 or 20 feet away. He's filming at a safe distance. And actually, agents approach them. They closed the space. And every time you see in the video, he walks away and he takes a step back.

COATES: And then there's the scuffle everyone is watching and hearing about, where they approached him and it appears to remove a gun. What do you see?

HARVIN: Yes. So, this is chaotic, right? The first thing you're going to see is -- we're going to stop right there. This is Alex Pretti in the purple box.

COATES: OK. HARVIN: He's on all fours. So, he is fully defensive at this point. We'll do a little closer up. You can see his hands over here. Let's see. See his hands over there. I want you to keep an eye on this officer right here. OK? He has actually drawn his firearm.

There's a couple of things that I want to get nuanced here for our viewers. He has actually drawn his firearm, and he's actually engaging the scrum. That is not how you're taught in law enforcement.

If you're going to be -- there's a contact officer and there's a cover officer. If you're going to be the cover officer and you're the first one to draw, and I'm going to do this for our audience, you're going to come into a tucked -- what we call a tucked position, which means that you're going to be standoff. You're going to have what we call muzzle discipline. So, you're not -- you see, I'm naturally not pointing towards my colleagues. And if I need to extend and engage, I can do that. He goes around this entire scrum with his finger on his trigger and engages with this.

Meanwhile, Alex Pretti is getting pepper sprayed. And this officer right here in the yellow, we're going to go to him next, he's actually removing the gun. So, that agent that we saw over here, he removes the gun, everyone has probably seen this before multiple times, and he -- and he flees the scene. That's actually good training.

What we don't know, however, is that this officer, this agent actually screamed out, gun retrieved, I got the gun, I have it, minimizing the threat. So, if he didn't do that and indicated in a very loud voice that he has control of the firearm, these other agents don't know that Alex Pretti is no longer armed.

COATES: Is he carrying it the right way, given what you just demonstrated to us?

HARVIN: You know, I'm not going to second guess that. And we've actually had officers. In fact, in D.C., we had a D.C. police officer who actually retrieved a gun from a gutter, and it accidentally discharged, which happens all the time, and he wound up killing himself. And so, in chaotic situations, officers grab guns. Sometimes, they don't do it the best way. I wouldn't like it this way. And actually, we don't know, you know, what happened.

COATES: Finally, shots are fired, though, and it is the fatal encounter of Alex Pretti. Describe what you see.

HARVIN: Yes. I mean, this is disturbing. He clearly doesn't have a gun anymore. And, you know, I mean, you don't have to be a law enforcement officer to know this looks like a firing squad.

COATES: I don't know how long it took actually from the time the gun was taken away from him to the time that he was shot at it. That's part of the investigation as it unfolds, right?

HARVIN: This happens in seconds and this is why the body camera footage is so important.

COATES: My goodness. Donell Harvin, thank you so much for breaking it down.

Breaking tonight, "The New York Times" reports that Trump had a two- hour meeting with Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem inside the Oval Office. And Noem apparently requested this meeting. I want to talk more with someone intimately familiar with immigration enforcement, Jason Houser, former chief of staff for ICE during the Biden administration. Jason, what's up with this meeting?

JASON HOUSER, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, ICE: You know, it's an interesting report from "The New York Times." You know, I think it will be -- it will be curious to see if this is a pause and adjust moment for the administration, just in messaging and how they're going about immigration enforcement or if this is a total reset. You know, will there just be changes to the messaging or is this an assessment of sort of what has led us to this point and what is occurring and what has occurred in many cities, whether it's Minneapolis, Chicago, North Carolina, and others?

But, hopefully, what is being addressed in this meeting is not just the optics or the political outcomes of sort of the leadership's decision making that has led us to this. It really needs to address both sort of what is the overall use of force policy, how the diversion of federal law enforcement assets away from national security and public safety threats, a discussion about the breach that has now been created between state and local law enforcement and federal law enforcement, and also just sort of how immigration enforcement and our immigration system, we can actually begin starting addressing the systemic failures of the entire system and move away from just quota arrests as a goal.

[23:39:59]

COATES: Something tells me that that meeting would have been well served months ago, but we're having it now. I wonder what will happen. Also, Trump's border czar, Tom Homan, is taking over in Minneapolis. He was with the Obama administration, excuse me. And ex-homeland security chief, Jay Johnson, actually praised Trump's decision. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEH "JAY" JOHNSON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: I'm pleased that the president is sending Tom Homan to Minneapolis. And my belief and my expectation and my hope is that Tom will be able to calm things down with the local government there and we'll see a cessation of hostilities. And, hopefully, the thousands of DHS personnel who are in Minneapolis right now, the reasons I don't fully understand, will withdraw from the situation and go back to their core mission.

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COATES: Will rank and file share his optimism?

HOUSER: It's a great question. You know, I served under Secretary Johnson, and I respect his opinion here. My question here is, of course, what is the goal of Mr. Homan? Is it just to sort of, you know, squelch the political sort of outcomes and falling approval numbers about the president's handling of immigration or is this actually a reset moment where Tom Homan is actually going to be able to get his hands around sort of immigration enforcement, domestic civil immigration enforcement?

I mean, it has all been very well reported that there is multiple veins of command and control, guidance from the White House, different veins into ICE and CBP. And with Mr. Bovino's removal and Mr. Homan being sent to Minneapolis, let's all hope that finally, the administration aligns immigration enforcement with our law enforcement best practices, what are in the best interest of our communities, what's in the best interests of migrants, and to handle these situations and these cases humanely and justly moving forward.

COATES: Does the fact that he's reporting directly to President Trump change anything for you?

HOUSER: You know, I -- it does concern me that it may just be another discussion and sort of -- just sort of, you know, handling of the political outcomes of the events in Minneapolis. You know, it is very well reported that, you know, even Stephen Miller and others have direct guidance. You know, directing ICE operations.

You know, someone that is intimately -- I consider -- you know, ICE, it's the work that it does the hardest in federal law enforcement. And the way that a lot of the senior officials within ICE have been treated, demoted, transferred, removed, and the way that they've been treated by many of the political appointees within the administration needs to stop.

And there are people that want to do good. I must admit that 48 months ago, the same ICE agents that are being maligned now in the press are the same ones that were helping to respond to mass surges at the border and helping the humane care of individuals, children in tender age, individuals showing up at the border. They have a very complicated job. And we need to take federal law enforcement out of hands of the politics of the day, and it needs to be given back to civilian leadership.

COATES: We'll see if that happens. Jason Houser, thank you so much.

HOUSER: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, the new information emerging about Alex Pretti as people nationwide joining the calls for justice. So, what might that look like exactly in the eyes of the law? Benjamin Crump knows it quite well, and he's live with me on that next.

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[23:45:00]

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COATES: A plea from Alex Pretti's parents. "Please get the truth out about our son. He was a good man." Let's talk about Alex and what we know about him. He was born in Illinois, graduated high school in Wisconsin, put himself through nursing school, and treated sick veterans as an ICU nurse at a V.A. hospital in Minneapolis. This video has since gone viral of Alex honoring a veteran with a final salute just two years ago.

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ALEX PRETTI, SHOOTING VICTIM: Today, we remember that freedom is not free. We have to work at it, nurture it, protect it, and even sacrifice for it. May we never forget and always remember our brothers and sisters who have served so that we may enjoy the gift of freedom.

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COATES: Alex was just 37 years old when he was killed. His friends say that he was motivated to protest after Renee Good's killing. His co- workers, patients, friends, and loved ones heeding his parents' call, telling the world he was a good man.

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CHRISTOPHER DISALVI, HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE FRIEND OF ALEX PRETTI: I can't stress how much he was kind to everybody.

MARTA CROWNHART, FORMER PATIENT OF ALEX PRETTI AND DISABLED NAVY VETERAN: He treated me like I was his only patient, and I knew I wasn't.

DR. DIMITRI DREKONJA, FORMER COLLEAGUE OF ALEX PRETTI: Within the first 30 seconds or 60 seconds of talking to him, there would be a smile on his face and there would be a joke out of his mouth. He was just a happy guy and a helpful guy.

PATRICK STUMBRAS, FORMER CLASSMATE OF ALEX PRETTI: I don't have words to describe the amount of rage that I have when he's described as a domestic terrorist or that he was there to massacre somebody. Anybody that has a heart or a soul that was watching that video knows, and especially us here in town, knowing something about Alex, that he was there to help people.

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[23:50:08]

COATES: Now, I want to bring in someone who knows all too well what families go through after tragedy, representing the families of George Floyd and Trayvon Martin and Breonna Taylor and many, many more. Attorney Ben Crump joins me now. Welcome. I'm glad to see you. Your expertise is needed because so many people have watched all this unfold in the last several weeks. I wonder what you would advise Alex Pretti's family to do. Would you advise them to sue in civil court? Would they have a strong case?

BENJAMIN CRUMP, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, I think I would advise them to use every legal remedy possible to get to the truth and get to justice, Laura, because what we're saying ICE do is a complete assault on our constitutional rights.

I mean, the First Amendment right against their attack of free speech and their attack on the right to assemble. You think about Amendment 2, the right to bear arms. I mean, he was licensed, he was registered. Amendment 4, the right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures by government agents. The Fifth Amendment, the right to due process of the law. The Sixth Amendment, the right to make sure that you have counsel. I mean, them knocking on people's doors, holding them without counsel for God knows how long. It truly is disturbing on so many levels, Laura Coates.

COATES: As you outlined each and every amendment, it's implicated. You have to wonder about the absence of or maybe even the false promise of investigations. I want to talk about that because the FBI and DHS, who have lost a lot of credibility within Minnesota and around the country based on the tactics that you have described, they are reportedly investigating. And Minnesota says that their officials were refused access to the scene. But a judge is requiring the federal government now to preserve all evidence.

I wonder about the lack of independence here and what your experience has been in the past when you have been the one to try to get information, to try to have independent autopsies, to try to ensure that you were getting credible information from the state and federal government. The tables seem to have turned a bit here. What do you think about the investigation prospects?

CRUMP: Well, Laura, I think when you first started the question, the first red flag is the lack of transparency. You know, we've been fighting these battles long before 2026, whether it's George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Tyre Nichols, and so many others. And what we've always said, it's about building trust. And to build trust, first, you have to have transparency. And once you have transparency, you can see who did what and were they right or were they wrong. You don't rush the judgment.

And then the second element is you have accountability. Transparency plus accountability. You see that we have equal justice no matter who is doing bad or who did not do anything because you want to commend law enforcement if they did the right thing. But that's how you get to trust.

And what we see playing out in Minneapolis is the opposite of that. It's distrust. Laura, it's like the George Orwell novel 1984 where they said the party's last and most urgent command was to reject the evidence of your eyes and your ears. And we cannot ever do that. We must never look away.

COATES: You know, one thing that's fascinating has been, you point this out, the work that you've been doing in terms of trying to show people that there has been injustice at the hands of law enforcement. There has been a lot of good, but a lot of injustice as well. People often pointed to race as the prominent factor that would be considered when law enforcement was challenged.

Here, we have seen in the last two examples, we have not seen a black or brown person killed at the hands of these ICE agents in Minnesota these last several weeks. Do you think that will impact the way people view the need to change?

CRUMP: Well, the hope is that we'll see the humanity in all our sisters and brothers, whether they're white, black or brown.

[23:54:55]

And even though we saw Alex Pretti and Renee Good killed by ICE in Minneapolis, we can't forget that ICE agent killed Keith Porter, a black man in Los Angeles.

So, this is all about every one of our sisters and brothers having the respect and dignity that all God's children are allowed to just by virtue of being a human being. I'm not talking about even being an American citizen, Laura. I'm saying the humanity that we must extend to our fellow men.

COATES: So well said. Humanity should be universal. Ben Crump, thank you so much.

CRUMP: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: And thank you all so much for watching. "The Story Is with Elex Michaelson" is next out of Los Angeles. He'll be talking to former Lakers star Derek Fisher to mark six years since the tragic death of his friend and beloved teammate, Kobe Bryant. All that and more right after this break.

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