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Laura Coates Live
Trump Test Drives "Communist" Attack Line Against Democrats; New Fight Over Faith In The Classroom; Mistrial Declared In Palisades Fire Arson Case. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired June 26, 2026 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Now, we got some viewer feedback for you from CNN.com/abby. First one, could we have a night where the words Biden and Obama are banned and hold Trump accountable regardless of a former president? And we got one for you, Arthur --
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh-oh.
PHILLIP: Arthur's attire is a hot topic. Arthur that suit and tie honey no.
(LAUGHTER)
AIDALA: No?
PHILLIP: Arthur's ugly suit can pay rent for a year.
(LAUGHTER)
LEIGH MCGOWAN, PODCAST HOST: Let me look. Let me look. No, this one is -- this is not ugly.
JOSHUA DOSS, POLLSTER, POLITICAL RESEARCHER: Did it say honey no?
PHILLIP: Yes, it says honey no. Arthur, we love your suit.
(LAUGHTER)
Thank you for watching "NewsNight" tonight. Tomorrow, don't miss our Saturday morning show, "Table for Five." It's at 10 a.m. Eastern. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR AND NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Tonight, President Trump tests a new midterm attack, claiming Democrats are divided and dangerous, but Republicans are facing a split of their own. Plus, a new fight over faith in the classroom. Texas makes Bible stories required reading in public schools. Is it education or endorsement? And then a fire that devastated parts of Los Angeles, a man charged with starting it. And now, a mistrial raising new questions. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
Good evening, everyone. I'm Omar Jimenez, in for Laura. President Trump is trying to turn attention away from the chaos within his own party by doing what he often does best, changing the subject, this time by dusting off a boogeyman he has used before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: These are not social Democrats. These are hardcore, godless communists. They're godless communists. All communists are godless. They don't believe in God. This is the most serious threat to our country since its existence, in my opinion, 250 years ago. This is a major threat to our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: Now, to be absolutely clear, none of the recent Democratic wins, by the way, are by communists. Two Democratic socialists won this week in New York. A handful of other Democratic socialists have notched recent victories. Again, not communists.
But those wins in New York are forcing Democrats to confront a basic question: What kind of party do they want to be? One answer is coming from the left, where progressives argue their wins show voters want bigger, bolder economic change. Several are also pushing the party's position on Israel and Gaza. And they're sending a message to their incumbent colleagues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), NEW YORK: You will create a self- fulfilling prophecy by deciding who these young women are before you met them. And if you are already panicking and sending little messages in your group chats about how these people need to be reined in and tamped down and shown their place, you are creating the antagonistic dynamic that we do not need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: Now, the other answer is coming from party's moderates, who are drawing their own line in the sand. A new pledge signed by a group of centrist House Democrats says we are capitalist, not socialist. And Republicans can't wait to point out that divide, including House Speaker Mike Johnson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE JOHNSON, SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: They are on the verge of an open civil war because the establishment Democrats are being pushed out by the Marxists. They're having a lot of disarray on their side, and that will play to our advantage in the midterms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: But there is an obvious complication for Speaker Johnson because, right now, his own party is in disarray, too. In just the last few days, for example, the president got in a shouting match with the senator over Iran. President Trump undercut a bipartisan housing bill that Republicans could have point to as a win and were already publicly starting to at a celebratory press conference over the bill. President Trump still hasn't signed it and, in the process, triggered a GOP rebellion over his demand to prioritize his controversial voter I.D. and proof of citizenship bill instead.
Now, Speaker Johnson went to the White House yesterday in an apparent attempt to find a way out of the standoff. After it was over, the president sent a message to Republicans, unify. That's usually what you tell people who are fighting. And in this case, it's a message you send when your party is not unified at the moment. So that's why Trump's attacks on Democrats matter because it's a test for the midterms. Can Republicans make Democratic divisions look more dangerous than their own?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: If we were to lose the midterms, heaven forbid, these Democrats, impeachment is not even the big concern. They will turn every committee of Congress into an investigative body and go after the president's family, the Cabinet, his donors and friends. Half of you in this room will be targeted. I run the protection program. I'll take care of you. OK? We're going to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: My first guest broke ranks to become one of the nation's most vocal never-Trumpers, former Republican congressman turned Democratic candidate for Florida governor, David Jolly, joins me now.
[23:05:00]
I just want to start with the president is trying to paint all Democrats as communists. And as we were talking about, the candidates who won in New York --
DAVID JOLLY, FLORIDA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE, FORMER FLORIDA REPRESENTATIVE: Yes.
JIMENEZ: -- are Democratic socialists. But I wonder, are you concerned that the attack lines will actually sink in with voters and be effective in November?
JOLLY: Not if we have an honest conversation. Omar, the president called Democrats godless communists. This is a president who has depicted himself on social media as Jesus Christ himself. He has suggested repeatedly that he is without sin and has no reason to seek forgiveness. He has profited off the commercial sale of Bibles with his own name. He has attacked the Pope.
And as a student of two Corinthians, as he likes to say, maybe you should remember the words of chapter six that say, you should approach others with grace and kindness and charity. This is a president who, if he wants to talk about godliness, should spend more time on his knees in prayer and less time in front of a microphone on his feet lecturing the American people. And, Omar, I say that, yes, you can hear the resentment in my voice as a Democrat who speaks openly about my faith. You see, I believe in the saving grace of the Jesus Christ, who I call my God, but I know the responsibility of a president and of a governor is not to share their faith but to secure freedom. This president is constitutionally obtuse. He's doctrinally heretical. He has manipulated the Christian church for far too long. And bless the old man's heart, he needs to sit down and shut up a little bit on this issue.
JIMENEZ: Well, congressman, when you look at sort of how President Trump rose within the Republican Party, I mean, it was a GOP establishment that, in many cases, tried and failed to contain its own populist wing until the party was completely remade by President Trump. I mean, we're seeing that now. And on the Democratic side, though, we're looking at a situation where Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is under a lot of pressure to win back the House. But I wonder, from your perspective, should he embrace this progressive wave or distance himself?
JOLLY: You know, you're right. I was a Republican. I was an independent. Today, I'm a Democrat. I'm in a very post-ideological place in my life. I don't care about the left-right spectrum. I think what we're seeing, Omar, is a resentment of incumbents who have failed to address people's pocketbook issues, right? The issues of housing, health care, and education that are frustrating people.
In New York, you saw an anti-incumbent swing of Democrats rising to beat Democrats. In Florida, we're not concerned about Democratic socialists. They're not going to build a coalition in the Sunshine State. We're worried about Republicans continuing failed policies that are hurting Floridians. And so, look, Democrats are getting elected in Florida right now. The city of Miami just elected a Democratic mayor for the first time in 30 years. And it was by 19 points. Not even close. Mar-a-Lago just elected a Democratic state representative. And if the election were tonight, Florida would elect a Democratic governor, not necessarily out of ideology, but because people are frustrated with incumbents who aren't solving problems. In Florida, the issue isn't Democratic socialists. It's right-wing Republicans who are failing to address the economic needs in housing, health care, and education for the most numbers of voters.
JIMENEZ: I mean, the real test in Florida and beyond is going to be energizing the Democratic base along with trying to get independence as well.
JOLLY: Sure.
JIMENEZ: And I just wonder, you know, if you look at the so-called big tent of the Democratic Party, which does include the Democratic socialists, if it means energizing that Democratic base, would you be comfortable campaigning with the Democratic socialist wing of this party?
JOLLY: I think New York elected the wrong people. But I say that as a Floridian, as a Florida Democrat. I respect that New York gets to elect who they want to elect. Florida is going to elect who they want to elect.
Look, we're a party that includes Gavin Newsom in California, Andy Beshear, Abigail Spanberger, Mikie Sherrill, Senator Kelly. We have people who, within our party, are representing their communities in very different ways. But the three values that I recognize we all share is that we're trying to get the economy to work for everyone.
Government can do a little part to improve people's lives. And everybody's rights should be protected and their dignity celebrated, regardless of the color of your skin, where you were born, who you love or who you worship. Those are Democratic principles.
And the reason Democrats are getting elected is those are not Republican principles right now. They're not fighting to make sure the economy works for everyone, they're trying to attack government, and they're launching culture wars to divide people. That's why Democrats are winning statewide -- nationwide.
JIMENEZ: But bottom line, you're not worried about this wing of the Democratic Party surging in the same way that we saw President Trump once in the wings of the Republican Party?
JOLLY: I disagree with this wing of the party. That's not who I am as a Democrat. But look, look at Republicans right now. They have people that tried to overthrow the government, that beat cops. The president pardoned those cops. They're engaged in outright grift and graft and outright corruption in Florida and in Washington.
So, you want to talk about a party that's having a hard family conversation? The Florida primary right now is like four snakes in a bag. You got Donald Trump's candidate, Ron DeSantis's lieutenant governor. You got the last Jeb Bush standing in the state, and you got Tucker Carlson's candidate. That's a party that's divided. At least Democrats are focused on improving people's lives.
[23:10:00]
Republicans are fighting this culture war within their own organization that they can't figure out. Look, I disagree with many of the candidates that New York Democrats elected. But I'm a Florida Democrat. We do things differently down there.
JIMENEZ: All right. David Jolly, we will be watching how the election season goes down in Florida, of course.
JOLLY: Thank you, Omar.
JIMENEZ: Appreciate you being here.
JOLLY: You bet.
JIMENEZ: All right. Lots to talk about here. I want to turn to former chief of staff to the Biden White House Press Office, Yemisi Egbewole, and former national spokesperson for Senator Ted Cruz's presidential campaign, Rick Tyler. Yemisi, I think I got the pronunciation down, but, you know, you checked me on that. I want to start with one thing in particular that we were just hearing as part of that discussion, was on the Democratic side, Senator Chris Coons seemed to be drawing a line in the sand today in terms of moderate Democrats versus some of the more progressive wing that we've seen. And I want to just play a little bit of that now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: I'm a member of the Democratic Party. I'm not a member of the Socialist Party. And frankly, I think that while folks can take ideas from other political traditions, if you're running in a Democratic primary, you ought to be a Democrat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: So, we talked a lot about the socialist wins but, you know, on the moderate side, Congressman Ritchie Torres also had a major primary win. I mean, going back to it. Mikie Sherrill is the governor of New Jersey. You got Abigail Spanberger in Virginia. How does the party deliver a single national midterm message that excites the progressives but doesn't quite turn off the moderates that have proven to have some national results?
YEMISI EGBEWOLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF AND ADVISER AT BIDEN WHITE HOUSE PRESS OFFICE: Well, when I think -- I think when it comes to the midterms, it's got to be different than when we look beyond to 2028. All politics is local.
And I don't think someone like Ben McAdams that just won his primary in Utah, and I hope will be coming back to Congress, that has much different policies than Chevalier up in New York City, should have to try to fit into a national vision when he's just trying to win his district. I don't think that moderates should put that pressure on themselves. And I think when they are asked about some of the statements from the folks in DSA up in New York City, they should be honest and say, I completely disagree with that, those are not the same values that I share, those are not the values that represent my constituency or that I'll be bringing to Congress. I think it's OK to put distance between them.
And to Senator Coons's point about if you want to be -- run as a Democrat, please be a Democrat. I think he's speaking to a lot of what DSA say openly in their own meetings, where they talk about the fact that they want to come into the Democratic Party and basically rip it apart.
Look, happy to have a big tent, but we all got to be batting for the same team. When the Atlanta Braves don't do so well, I don't think about completely tossing out the team. I think about ways that I can improve the team. Now, if that means changing some of the players, fine. But overall, I'm still rooting for the team all the way through, and that's what I think a lot of folks want to see from DSA.
JIMENEZ: You say that because I'm from Atlanta. I'm a Braves fan. I don't know -- I don't know if she had that in her back.
EGBEWOLE: I'm from Marietta, Georgia.
JIMENEZ: OK. I'm from Marietta. We'll talk about that later.
(LAUGHTER)
Rick, so, we talked -- we also talked about this a little bit earlier, too --
RICK TYLER, DIRECTOR OF ADVANCED SCHOOL OF POLITICS AT THE LEADERSHIP INSTITUTE, FORMER NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON OF TED CRUZ'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Yes.
JIMENEZ: -- because on the Republican side, look, Speaker Johnson insisting Democrats are the ones on the verge of a civil war, which there are some real divisions here that we've seen. But then President Trump also said this about Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, you should call her and tell her to get on the ball. She'll never win another election, I can tell you. She has got to get -- she got to vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: How do you see the divide right now in the Republican Party?
TYLER: Well, any time Donald Trump comments on any politician, it's not an ideological argument. It's always a personal argument. So, look, both parties are suffering somewhat of an identity crisis. So, MAGA is not conservatism. Conservatism is not MAGA. The Democratic socialists, and Chris Coons seems to be very, very concerned that his party is going to inherit that imprimatur.
The Republicans are going to be -- a majority party is always going to be divided in governing because that's the way governing works. There's going to be part of the party within the governing coalition that doesn't want to do one thing and want to do the other. Interestingly, on the housing bill, no one is divided. All the Republicans are for it and nearly all the Democrats are for it. That's a political win.
It's political malpractice for the president to say now, let's take this bill, which actually could have done something for housing for Americans, Democrat and Republican, take that win, sign the bill, do a ceremony, and look like you're addressing the affordability issue, and that's the number one issue.
The Democrats can't be divided politically, strategically, when they're going into an election, when affordability is the issue. And what I heard, the Democratic socialists who won in New York, and they won, they weren't bashing Trump, they weren't bashing Republicans, they were bashing establishment Democrats.
[23:15:04]
That's a big problem for their party.
JIMENEZ: You know, Yemisi, we were talking just about the strategy, sort of going into this next election, next cycle. Democrats seem to have come, and I'm looking way past the midterms here, because it's a difference in philosophy, where Democrats have seemed to come to terms with the likely J.D. Vance run, if you look ahead to '28.
But Senator Ruben Gallego reportedly told fellow lawmakers this week, if Marco Rubio is the nominee for president, we're in trouble. And to some of Rick's points in terms of the Trump version of Republican politics versus conservatism versus wherever the Republican Party is right now, do you agree that a Rubio nominee would be more difficult for Democrats to contend with than a Vance nominee?
EGBEWOLE: I do, because Secretary Rubio has always believed what he has believed and stuck to it. And I think somebody like Vice President J.D. Vance has an issue with some of his past statements. Look, Secretary Rubio has been critical of the president, but there aren't clips of Rubio going around calling President Trump Hitler.
And Rubio and Gallego are both speaking to a certain base. They are Latino. They know that demographic well. I think that the Hispanic population is going to play a more sizable role in the presidential elections than it has before. I would even say that it could play a role that could match what we've seen the Black demographic play when it comes to putting weight on who we choose on our side as the nominee. So, I do think that Rubio does have that upper edge. I mean, Vice President Vance has gone the way of Turning Point USA, but that doesn't make up the whole coalition of the Republican Party.
JIMENEZ: Rick, just really quickly before you go, do you expect Senator Ted Cruz will be in the mix?
TYLER: Ted Cruz is going to run. But I do think Marco Rubio is a strong candidate. One, because he's bilingual, and he can speak MAGA and conservative. And also, what Senator Gallego is saying is, look, do not take this presidential race for granted. There is a deeper vent than they would like to anticipate. And so, it's not going to be a layup.
JIMENEZ: The political, bilingual, MAGA, conservative, Democrat, and socialist. A lot of people are going to be learning a lot of languages heading into these midterms.
TYLER: Exactly.
EGBEWOLE: I'm excited.
JIMENEZ: Good to see you both. Thanks for being here.
TYLER: Thanks, Omar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAN PATRICK, LIEUTENTANT GOVERNOR, TEXAS: The separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. And from this day forward, that phrase should have no power over people of all faiths ever again in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: Now, right before the Texas lieutenant governor said that, the Texas Board of Education voted to require millions of students to study Bible stories. A Texas pastor who fought to stop it joins me, next. Plus, a mistrial in the case of the man charged with sparking one of the worst fires in California history will tell you why jurors couldn't reach a decision and why prosecutors say this case isn't over.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JIMENEZ: Tonight, Texas appears to be the first state in the country to mandate all public school students read parts of the Bible. Now, the state approved the curriculum today. So, five million students will be required to read these Bible stories starting in the year 2030, the school year for that year.
From David and Goliath to the 23rd Psalm to the Book of Genesis, supporters say this has nothing to do with religion, they're just using the Bible to educate students about literature and world history. But critics argue this is part of a national effort to infuse Christianity into public education and strip teachers of autonomy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Teachers need to be of their autonomy. They've been selecting books for decades, for years. This is nothing new. This is not a new concept to teachers. We are simply giving them a mandated list, which I believe is unconstitutional. But regardless of what I believe, let's not take their autonomy away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: One of those critics joins me now, Pastor David Stippick of the Peace of Christ Church in Round Rock, Texas. Pastor, I really appreciate you taking the time. You know, you're a pastor in Texas. Some might be watching this surprised that you're against this required reading list, and you testified against it earlier this year. And I just wonder, why did you think it was important to speak out against this?
DAVID STIPPICK, PASTOR, PEACE OF CHRIST CHURCH: Yes, as a pastor, I have no problem with religious texts being used for literary education in a classroom, and I know that that is what supporters of this say that is being done. What I don't think should be done would be one religious text being used over any others. And so, if this same curriculum was using the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, other religious traditions, texts, OK, that's a different conversation. But from everything that's presented about this bill, it reads in almost all ways except explicitly saying this is to teach children in the state of Texas that the Christian Bible is the right religious text and that we should know it and do what it says.
JIMENEZ: So, for you, if it wasn't so specifically tied to only just Christianity, if classrooms were open to other texts that could help teach some of that story, you would feel a little bit more comfortable with this dynamic?
STIPPICK: I'm as comfortable with them using religious text to teach literary criticism or education or sentence structure or any other kind of devices for history. There are all kinds of ways to use any religious text to be taught analytically in a public school setting. Public school setting is not the place that I want anybody explicitly teaching the correctness or incorrectness of one religion over another.
[23:25:00]
JIMENEZ: And, you know, supporters have said they, as we've been talking about, they're not teaching religion in school, that these stories are part of history and will help students understand their world. What do you say to folks who, again, say, we're not using the religion for religion's sake, we're using it to teach?
STIPPICK: Yes. You know, my question is -- one of my questions would be, who is teaching it, right? The Southern Baptist Convention two weeks ago moved forward with plans in their denomination that women cannot hold roles or positions or responsibilities of pastors, and then that would include some teaching responsibilities. And so, are you OK, then, as a Southern Baptist person with a female teacher teaching this text? What's the difference between her teaching it in a religious setting or in a school setting? Things like that. Or what version are they using?
In the state of Texas, in the list that's printed, that's about what's going to be taught in each different grade, all of the places that it lists biblical texts being taught, it says the author is the state of Texas. So, I'm very curious about whether or not the state of Texas has taken on a Bible translation project that hasn't been made known to the public but, realistically, that, you know, there are traditions that believe the King James version is the only teachable and acceptable version of the Bible and there are people that don't believe that, there are traditions that only use the NIV.
So, there's so many questions that come in outside of just should it be taught or not and is it being used either by being stated explicitly or being, you know, in a maybe underhanded way to teach the religion and not the historical aspect of it.
JIMENEZ: And then there are some that, of course, are pointing to the establishment clause of the very First Amendment, saying prohibiting government actions that favor one religion over another. Something to watch moving forward. Pastor David Stippick, I really appreciate you being here. Thanks for the time and perspective.
STIPPICK: Thanks so much.
JIMENEZ: All right. Coming up next, a hung jury, a mistrial. And now, one juror is explaining why she thinks the case against the man charged with setting the Palisades fire didn't add up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYRENA, JUROR: I just felt like a lot of holes. Yes, yes, a lot of holes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
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JIMENEZ: Tonight, thousands of people in Los Angeles are still desperate for closure after a mistrial was declared in the arson case against the man charged with starting last year's devastating wildfire in Pacific Palisades. Twelve people were killed and 6,000 homes were destroyed.
Prosecutors argued that Jonathan Rinderknecht was obsessed with starting fires, that he ranted to Uber customers about capitalism and taking down billionaires. Now, Rinderknecht says he didn't start the fire and that he called 911 when he saw the flames. His defense says prosecutors are pointing the finger at him for one reason only.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE HANEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: For politics. You know, they need a scapegoat. They need somebody to blame. And they picked on the convenient loner Uber driver, that they did nothing but engage in character assassination for two and a half weeks. That's all they did, is attack his character and present no evidence, no direct evidence at all that he maliciously started a fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: Now, ultimately, the jury was deadlocked. But the foreperson says that two jurors thought he was guilty while 10 sided with the defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYRENA: There's just not enough proof. It was -- just happened so late in time. And I just felt like a lot of holes. Yes, yes, a lot of holes.
(END VIDEO CLIP) JIMENEZ: I want to bring in criminal defense attorney Alexandra Kazarian. So, I just wonder, why do you think the majority of the jury just didn't buy the government's case here?
ALEXANDRA KAZARIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: From what it sounds, like there was not a very clear connection to the fire that actually ignited and caught houses on fire and the allegations about the fire that he started. So, there was a disconnect because the fire department had said that they had thought that they put the fire out, but that it was still smoldering and that it had reignited, and that's what really created all the decimation.
And from what I understand from how the jury really analyzed the evidence was that there was not a clear connection between his actions and the flames that actually ignited the houses and caused the damage.
JIMENEZ: You know, and one of the interesting things on this is that prosecutors seem to focus at one point on Rinderknecht's ChatGPT history, essentially claiming that he repeatedly asked to create images of a city engulfed in flames, and that actually upset one of the jurors. I want you to take a quick listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYRENA: I use ChatGPT. So, I got really like sad. And like I talk to ChatGPT all the time. So, that was like it made me angry that they were like putting his character down for just being human. And yes, maybe we all have problems, but why are you putting his character down?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: Now, look, as you know, prosecutors are building a case. They're trying to cling on to anything that they have.
[23:35:00]
They clearly painted Rinderknecht as anti-government, against the rich, included through his characterization of how he used ChatGPT. But I wonder, do you also believe that characterization goes too far in how it was used in this particular trial?
KAZARIAN: You know, I think it's really shocking that in a federal trial, the evidence that they used was really circumstantial. Generally, it's very, very hard to get a not guilty in a federal case because there is usually so much hard evidence against the defendant that really the leverage that you have is to cooperate early on in these kinds of cases. This is much more like a state level case where circumstantial evidence and bad character evidence is used to kind of convince the jury that this is the kind of person that would do something like this.
So, it's shocking that in a federal case, ChatGPT was such a linchpin in their prosecution. And I think it's really interesting to see because this is one of the first times that ChatGPT is really being used as evidence for a conviction in a case. And it seems like it was absolutely rejected by this jury.
JIMENEZ: And it's part of a newer wave, for sure. And as we point out, it ended in a mistrial here. We will see what happens when prosecutors say they try to bring another trial. But for now, Alexandra Kazarian, really appreciate you being here. Thank you.
KAZARIAN: Thank you so much.
JIMENEZ: Now, this verdict hits close to home for my next guest. He lost his home during the Palisades fire last year. And like so many others, he's trying to rebuild. Rabbi Daniel Sher joins me now. So, Rabbi, I just wonder, how is your community reacting to this mistrial? How did you think Rinderknecht would actually be found guilty here?
DANIEL SHER, RABBI, LOST HOME IN CALIFORNIA WILDFIRES: Shabbat shalom. It's so nice to be with you. And I think it's important to remember that no verdict actually creates closure. And so, whatever -- often, we imagine that this legal decision would somehow end part of the story. I think a lot of people understand that healing doesn't actually work that way.
So, a verdict may have answered some legal questions for some people, but it doesn't rebuild homes, it doesn't restore what people have lost, it doesn't erase the trauma that they've been carrying. So, I'm not entirely sure how many local Palisadian people going through this actually hung so much weight on the notion of a verdict.
JIMENEZ: And, you know, to your point, whether they didn't hang on this particular person, there are a lot of people who are, you know, looking at local officials, looking at state officials as they're trying to rebuild and wondering whether local and state officials could have done more or whatever it might be. Is there any form of accountability that you in particular are looking for or you felt has been particularly resonant from the people out there?
SHER: You know, there's a phrase in Judaism, tzedek, tzedek tirdof, which means justice, justice you shall pursue. We believe deeply in justice, that accountability matters. But justice in the sight of a verdict or a trial is only one step in healing. The larger form of justice is what have we learned and have we become a safer community? Do our city and state officials and all the infrastructure in place, has it improved the emergency preparedness moving forward? Are we rebuilding in a way that's better to protect the people and the environment around us?
When the legal process is part of it, it's important, but the questions remain unanswered because the work isn't finished. So, there is a side of that, which is are we all together, all of us, the citizens and the government, prepared to have a safer tomorrow in response to this tragedy?
JIMENEZ: You know, you, like so many others, lost so much over the course of these fires. And it has been quite some time since the fires to this point. And I know all of this takes a lot of time. As I understand, you haven't started to rebuild yet. And I just wonder, how is that process going for yourself and your neighbors? Are you satisfied with the support that your community is receiving?
SHER: I mean, you're right. For many in the congregation, including myself, we haven't gotten to that rebuild yet. And people are exhausted. And months and months later, many people almost have that numb because there have just been so many decisions to make and so many obstacles to navigate.
And I think that -- I think a lot about that when I'm thinking about these well jurors and the responsibility they carried for that verdict. They were asked to weigh incredibly difficult evidence in a case that affected thousands and thousands of lives. And whatever conclusion they reached, it would have an extraordinary burden to carry just having that conclusion.
And look, my role as a rabbi is not to interpret the verdict.
[23:40:01]
My role is to care for the people. And so, yes, that limbo that so many people are in is so real. But for so many in our congregation, we have not lost sight of what we're trying to rebuild. And so, that has been the steadfast focus, a community that cares for its people and is resilient enough to care for the broader community at large. And that is exhausting.
And look, right after this, I'm going to go celebrate Shabbat with my family. And every week, Judaism carves out a spot to say, push aside the constant pressure and just be human. And I think that a lot of people hoped that a trial would create a moment of exhale. But what this tradition has always taught is we don't have to wait for that moment. We create it. We carve out the time each and every week. And while we're going through the difficulty of rebuild, we owe ourselves those moments of pause and of, you know, the respite that we need in order to do this work.
A lot of the world moved on after the fire. As you know, from covering this, as you know from the people who have gone through tragedy, tragedy takes a long time to rebuild from.
JIMENEZ: I mean, some of the things lost there can never be replaced. I mean, people are in many cases lucky to just have the ability to try and rebuild. Rabbi Daniel Sher, I really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks for being here.
SHER: I really appreciate that, too. I just want to say --
JIMENEZ: Yes.
SHER: -- I don't think the story of the Palisades will be defined by what happened in a courtroom. I think it will be defined on how we care for each other. And I think that at large, the whole community can be a part of that. So, thank you very much for allowing this story to be part of this moment and for continuing to remember what's going on.
JIMENEZ: Of course. An important message for so many people. Great to see you. All right, coming up for us, the World Cup is bringing the world to America. But what kind of America are they seeing? The food, the prices, the kind of energy only the World Cup can bring, we'll talk about it, next.
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JIMENEZ: You don't need a ticket to the World Cup to learn that nobody celebrates quite like soccer fans, whether it's these Norway fans in the middle of Times Square.
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(CHANTING)
JIMENEZ: Hey, they're locked in. Or the Scotland fans who call themselves the Tartan Army at a Miami Marlins game.
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UNKNOWN: We love to party at any sport event. We love to drink. We love to party.
UNKNOWN: Is the stadium going to run out of beer tonight?
UNKNOWN: Yes. Absolutely. You need to phone up Scotland and say, can you send more beer? Because we're going to drink it all tonight!
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JIMENEZ: Hey, I'm not going to drink or drink with them. The World Cup visitors have been picking up a lot about U.S. culture between the matches as well. And the biggest hits, they're not the big tourist attractions or really anything you'd expect.
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UNKNOWN: I'm a Brit in America, and this place is absolutely insane. Buc-ee's. There's like 60 different petrol pumps.
UNKNOWN: What do you think you'll take away from your visit here in the United States back to Germany?
UNKNOWN: Ranch. I love ranch. I tasted it here. It's delicious. And I take two bottles with home.
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(LAUGHTER)
JIMENEZ: It's true, the tourists really can't get enough of ranch dressing. Apparently, it has gotten so out of hand that TSA had to get involved, literally posting, if you're visiting for a very large sporting event and you happen to discover ranch while you're here, please pack it in your checked bag on the way home. Good advice.
Here to talk about all of these, sports columnist, journalist, and professor, Clinton Yates. Clinton, good to see you. I just wonder, why do you think these fans are so mesmerized by these things that most of us don't really bat an eye out? I mean, have you been -- have you ever raved about a gas station food in another country?
CLINTON YATES, SPORTS COLUMNIST, JOURNALIST, PROFESSOR: First of all, I have. Secondarily, think about it this way: Imagine you'd been living your whole life, insert number of decades here, and your vision of what the U.S. was came only through television, movies, online, and so forth. And then you show up on the ground, and you have things, the likes of which you didn't even think are real. We have people that didn't even believe that red solo cups and school buses existed outside of movies.
And not only are these things real, they're a large part of what makes America what it is. And so, for us, it seems normal. And I understand that. And I'm not somebody that's not been around the globe and doesn't understand why the wonder is there. But I look at stories like the Scots, for example, all up and down the northeast, or the Algerians in Lawrence, Kansas where two cultures came together to really love each other. There are real people here.
And I think that when you see this country through the lens of a lot of things that happen on a lot of, frankly, television networks, there's no way to replace that until it happens in front of your face with your eyeball.
JIMENEZ: Yes, I guess. Now that we talk about it, I have been pretty amazed by 7-Elevens in Japan. And I'm like, why can't we have that here? But, look, you know, all right, so, yes, they're experiencing a lot of the real America here. They love the food. There's also some stuff that they're still trying to get used to, aren't too crazy about. Take a listen to this.
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GEOFF PRYOR, WORLD CUP TOURIST FROM ENGLAND: What I find weird is that I just get a bottle of water from someone, and they're trying to get a tip for doing nothing.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT MCNAMARA, WORLD CUP TOURIST FROM AUSTRALIA: We went out the other night and had a few drinks, and they're expecting a tip after every drink.
[23:50:01]
So, it's like, yes, expensive, very quick.
MAIKO ASAHI, WORLD CUP TOURIST FROM JAPAN: In Japan, there's no tipping. The price without the -- without the tipping is already expensive.
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JIMENEZ: All right, you get the ranch but, you know, you got a tip on the other side of it. I just wonder, when this is over, what do you think the overall fan assessment of the United States will be?
YATES: Without going too far on the deep end on what are fair wages in a labor market, I will say this.
(LAUGHTER)
The term that I've loved the most this summer has been the great American sleepover. That's what it's kind of felt like. When your cousins come by, they don't visit often, and you just make sure that you try to have a good time and you show your best. I think people will understand from the states that there is more than meets the eye, for lack of a better term.
So, when you're on the ground, you look at a Spanish team in Chattanooga, you look at the Cabo Verdeans who, again, have been all over the place, you look at nations like Curacao, who've been having a great time with this, you look at the Koreans and the Mexicans, who people believe are going to have a baby boom because of what happened in Group A and everybody having so much camaraderie.
I think that it's difficult to look at a soccer tournament and say it didn't go as well as everybody would have hoped. At this stage of the tournament, it has been a good time. People are making friends. And to me, that's what World Cup is all about.
JIMENEZ: Yes. Lamine Yamal in Chattanooga were not two words I would have put together before this World Cup.
(LAUGHTER)
You know, one of the things, we've talked about it a lot on this program and others, it's -- look, the World Cup is happening at a pretty tense moment in our politics, fights over immigration policy, drama surrounding America 250. But when you look at the tourists and the fans, do you get the sense that tourists are paying attention to any of that or are they just here to have a good time?
YATES: I do believe so, but I believe so in the way that has a positive bend on it, in the way that you're looking at it and you say, thank God, I am not necessarily the one who has to deal with this everywhere I go, even at a soccer tournament.
Let's not forget, citizens of the globe are generally, on the whole, frankly, smarter than a lot of Americans. And so, they understand what they're looking at in terms of what the average person is dealing with. I was at the USA-Turkey game last night, and you could tell that fans were excited to be in a place, both Americans and Turkish, to just have a good time.
And I don't mean that to delete the other things that matter, but I believe that everybody has grown enough to understand what's going on from a geopolitical level in this country and the joy of what the beautiful game brings is enough to at least temporarily make up for it, if not make friends and make things better. I do think there's an element of that, that smart people, which, you know, frankly, a lot of soccer fans are, really do appreciate, and it has been fun to see.
JIMENEZ: Yes. And sports, the great equalizer. Everybody, just sit down. Let's watch a game. You can talk trash during the game then never (ph) afterwards. At least if you're in Mexico and South Korea, you're going to be dancing and having a good time.
YATES: Yes.
JIMENEZ: Clinton Yates, good to see you. Thanks for being here.
YATES: Any time.
JIMENEZ: All right. Just ahead, Taylor Swift made a Madison Square Garden cameo just two weeks ago for the Knicks. But now, the prediction markets think she could be heading back for something other than basketball. Harry Enten is here to break down the odds in the Swift-Kelce wedding watch, next.
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JIMENEZ: Hey, no calm in the Swifty universe tonight. The rumor mill is in full swing over whether the pop star will, in fact, marry Travis Kelce at Madison Square Garden next week. An event permit has been requested. But police CNN spoke to outside the sports arena are not convinced. So, is it happening or is it all this elaborate distraction that's getting us all wound up?
Our friend, Harry Enten, is taking a look at the odds. Harry?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Hey, Omar, in my wildest dreams, I never thought that I'd be talking to you about the marriage of the life of a showgirl, Taylor Swift, getting married to Travis Kelce most likely this summer. And the question is, where is this marriage going to take place? And there are, of course, great rumors that will be taking place right down the street at MSG.
And the chances of it, up like a rocket, according to the Kalshi prediction markets. Look at this. An 86 percent chance of it's a love story baby happening right in our very own backyard. And I guess the question is, ultimately, is that where the friends get married? Well, security guards, not so sure. But the people putting their money where their mouths are, they really do think there's a good shot of it happening.
But it would not be the first marriage at MSG, though it probably would be the most famous. Indeed. Get this. How many vows have been exchanged at MSG over the years? Oh, my goodness gracious. Two thousand and seventy-six different couples actually got married at MSG. Pre-Swift, the biggest was Sly Stone. Of course, we all enjoyed his music back in the 1970s. And there was, in fact, a massive group wedding where people said they were forever and always with their partners. This, of course, was the Unification Church, which happened a long period of time ago.
Now, what would make the Swift marriage so special? Why do we care so much about it? Well, get this. Taylor Swift, we all know who she is. My goodness gracious. You heard of me in the pouring rain, the name recognition of the greats. Get this. Ninety-seven percent of people in this country know who Taylor Swift is. That's actually more. That's actually more than Dolly Parton at 94 percent. As we like to say, welcome to New York, baby. Welcome to New York.
Now, ultimately, the question is the king of my heart, the king of my heart. People, they're into it because get this. Google searches for the Swift wedding up 200 percent this month. That is the highest that it has ever been. So, people very much into this wedding. I know that I am. I am truly, Omar, enchanted. Back to you.
JIMENEZ: Harry knows all, all too well. Good to see you, Harry, as always.
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And thank you all for watching. It has been a great hour. At least I think so. "The Story Is with Elex Michaelson" up next.
