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One World with Zain Asher
Russia: Killing Of Kirillov In Moscow A "Terrorist Act"; Hamas Ceasefire-Hostage Deal Possible After Doha Talks; Two Dead, Six Inured In Wisconsin School Shooting; SETF: Hundreds Of Thousands Could Be Buried In Mass Graves; Trump Hosts Procession Of Business Leaders At Mar-a-Lago; RFK Jr. Meets With Senators Ahead Of Confirmation Battle; Sources: Stowaway Apprehended Again, Tried To Leave U.S.; Aired 12:00-1:00p ET
Aired December 17, 2024 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:27]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: A top Russian general is killed when a bomb detonates in Moscow. ONE WORLD starts right now.
We'll have details on the man who was wanted by Ukraine over the use of chemical munitions.
Hamas says a ceasefire deal in Gaza is possible after what it calls positive discussions. We'll bring you the latest on just how close the two
sides are to an agreement.
Plus, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. meets with senators on Capitol Hill. We'll dive into the health secretary's hopeful controversial plans.
Hi, everyone, live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga. Zain is off today. You are watching ONE WORLD.
Russian officials are now responding furiously over the assassination of one of their top generals. Russian authorities say this man, Lieutenant
General Igor Kirillov, was killed in a bomb explosion outside an apartment building earlier today in Moscow.
A source with knowledge of the operation says Ukraine's security services were behind the killing. Russia is calling it a, quote, terrorist act, and
vowing the murderers will be -- the murderers will be punished without a doubt and without mercy.
Kirillov's death comes a day after Ukrainian prosecutors charged the general in absentia with the use of banned chemical substances.
CNN's Red Pleitgen has more from Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We are actually at the scene of where this explosion took place, and the Russians are
saying this happened in the early morning hours of today, as the general and an aide to the general were leaving that building.
I'm going to get out of your way and you can see the actual scene of where all of this took place. And you already mentioned that the entrance to that
building where all this happens, the second entrance down from here, was badly damaged in that explosion.
And the Russians are indeed saying that they believe that the explosive device was hidden in an electric scooter park right outside that building.
And that there were about 300 grams of TNT inside that explosive device.
They have already said that they found remnants of that explosive device. And one of the other things that they said as well is that they believe
that it was detonated remotely.
Now, we do know, at this point in time, that the Ukrainian security services have claimed responsibility for this.
A source saying that to CNN that Ukrainian security services were behind this. The explosion, despite the fact that 300 grams of TNT might not sound
like very much, seems to have been substantial. We can see that there's a lot of workers here on the ground. Investigative Committee of the Russian
Federation on the ground. Some others have cordoned off the area.
But one of the other things that we're seeing as well, if we pan over to the other side, is that the explosion was so strong that it damaged the
building on the other side of the road.
You can see there that windows have been smashed by this explosion that took place. There was an eye witness report that we have seen. Some of them
on Russian media saying that they thought that maybe some sort of cement truck had unloaded a lot of cement, or what, something very heavy had
fallen down on the ground.
So, clearly, the people who live in this area very much heard this explosion as it took place. Of course, at the beginning, not exactly clear
of what it might have been.
The Russians have launched a criminal investigation into all this. You can see the investigators, and we've seen the investigators on the ground here,
not just civilian investigators are from the police authorities, but also military investigators as well.
Of course, Lieutenant General Igor Kirillov, very important for the Russian military, very high up in the Russian military. He was the head of Russia's
nuclear biological and chemical defense forces.
And the Ukrainians had actually indicted him in absentia. Just yesterday, the Ukrainian security services accusing the Russians of using weaponized
chemicals in the war in Ukraine.
Igor Kirillov, for his part in the past, had accused the Ukrainians of doing the exact same thing. So certainly, someone who was on the forefront
as far as that conflict between Ukraine and Russia is concerned, and someone who the Russians, of course, for their military, was extremely
important.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Fred Pleitgen for that report.
Turning to Gaza now where 100 Israeli hostages remain in captivity and more than 45,000 Palestinians have been killed with the death toll rising each
and every day.
After 14 months of deadlock, we're learning Israel and Hamas may be getting closer to a deal. A Hamas official told CNN that a ceasefire hostage deal
is possible following positive discussions in Qatar, but only as long as Israel doesn't impose new conditions or dramatic changes do not occur.
Jeremy Diamond is in Jerusalem with the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[12:05:04]
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hamas now becomes the latest party to these negotiations to express some optimism about the
prospects of reaching a ceasefire and hostage release deal.
We have heard optimistic comments over the course of the last week from U.S., Israeli, Qatari and Egyptian officials, and now Hamas is joining the
fray. But as with the others who are expressing optimism, Hamas is also adding a note of caution to their comments.
In their statement, they are making clear that, quote, Hamas affirms that in light of the serious and positive discussions taking place in Doha
today, under the auspices of our Qatari and Egyptian brothers, reaching an agreement for a ceasefire and prisoner exchange is possible if the
occupation stops imposing new conditions.
And that if is indeed that note of caution that they are raising, suggesting that Israeli negotiators are making additional demands as this
negotiating process moves forward.
A second Hamas source said that they view the current state of negotiations as, quote, positive and optimistic.
And it is important to note that amid this optimism, we are also seeing a flurry of diplomatic activity in the region. The U.S. National Security
Adviser Jake Sullivan, just last week, traveled to Israel, Egypt, and Qatar to try and advance a deal. He said he hopes that he can put the conditions
in place to reach a deal with the United States within the next month. And that is indeed the target here, appears to be to try and reach a deal
before President Biden leaves office on January 20th and President-elect Trump will then be inaugurated.
And we know, of course, that the Biden administration has also been closely coordinating with the Trump administration over this deal as incoming Trump
advisors have also been traveling to the region and coordinating closely with the officials who they will soon be replacing.
It is important to caution, though, that as we are seeing this momentum, as we are seeing this optimistic language, the reason why we are also hearing
notes of caution from all of the parties involved is because we have been this close in the past. We have been very close to a deal and ultimately
talks have collapsed. And that possibility still very much looms.
But Israeli and American officials who I've spoken to have pointed to a new set of conditions in the region in terms of Hamas being increasingly
isolated. Israel having accomplished a slew of military achievements in Gaza, including the killing of Hamas leader, Yahya Sinwar, that might make
them more willing to reach a deal now.
All of this pointing us in the direction of a potential ceasefire and hostage deal. But again, the deal isn't reached until it's done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Jeremy Diamond reporting there.
CNN political and global affairs analyst Barak Ravid joins me now live from Bethesda, Maryland.
Barak, good to see you. A few people are better sourced than you on this issue. From what you're hearing, how close are the sides to a deal right
now?
BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hi, Bianna. Well, the sides are closer than they were, let's say, a month or two months ago,
but this doesn't mean that they're close.
As far as I hear from -- I spoke to four Israeli officials today about this, people who are intimately involved in this issue, and they tell me
that the gaps are still wide and that a deal is not imminent.
One of them even told me, don't change your plans if you had plans for Christmas and New Year. So I think it tells you something about where we
really are. And all of those four officials told me in different ways that there are still significant gaps, many issues that need to be solved. A
deal is not around the corner.
Is it possible that the deal will be achieved by January 20th? Yes, it is possible because in many negotiations, you know, it's slow, slow, slow, and
then it's very fast. Once, you know, you get to a certain point, but we're still not at that point.
And I haven't heard anything that made me think that a deal could happen in the next week to two weeks.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned January 20th. Of course, that's the inauguration for incoming President Trump.
And yesterday, at a press conference, he said that he had a very good talk with Prime Minister Netanyahu about where the war stands in Gaza, and then
reiterated his threat that, quote, all hell will break out if Hamas doesn't release the hostages by January 20th.
I want to read for our viewers what he said, as you know, I gave a warning that if these hostages aren't back home by that date, all hell is going to
break out. It's not going to be pleasant.
How much have these threats, these public threats and warnings that he reiterated yesterday played in terms of getting Hamas and, to some extent,
even Benjamin Netanyahu closer to a deal or at least as you noted closer today than where things stood a few weeks ago.
[12:10:16]
I think that what President-elect Trump did was extremely important to move those talks from the deadlock that they've been in for something like three
months and it's not the threat, as much as it's the deadline.
Once he said that he expects a deal until January 20th, it got everybody worked up. And Benjamin Netanyahu, until that point, wasn't in a hurry to
do anything. Now he is.
The Qatari and Egyptian mediators weren't in a hurry. Now they are. I don't know about all the different factions inside Hamas, but definitely the fact
in the hummus was outside of Gaza also heard his remarks the same way.
The problem is that the hostages are held by Hamas leaders inside Gaza and they have a different agenda. The person who's running the show right now
is Muhammed Sinwar, Yahya's Sinwar brother. Yahya's Sinwar, Hamas leader who was killed two months ago. He is holding the hostages. He is calling
the shots.
And I'm not sure that when you're in a tunnel in Gaza for 14 months, I'm not sure that your -- that any threat is big enough to change your
behavior.
GOLODRYGA: We heard Jeremy Diamond note what we've been hearing from family members of hostages that visited the White House last week and met with
both Biden administration officials and incoming Trump administration officials and said that the two sides seem to be coordinating quite well on
this issue.
What more are you hearing about how these two sides are working together? And do you think that's helping move these negotiations and ceasefire
hostage deal talks forward?
RAVID: No doubt. And I'm -- I heard this from both Biden administration officials and Trump advisors that this is working quite well. And there's,
you know, very, very close coordination between Jake Sullivan and Brett McGurk from the White House. And people in Trump's team like the Middle
East advisor, Steve Witkoff. And national -- incoming national security adviser, Mike Waltz.
So I think, at least when it comes to the transition, I think that what we see is that both sides are trying to work as much as they can together so
that they can deliver on such a deal.
GOLODRYGA: There had been somewhat now appears to be erroneous reporting on the status of these hostage and ceasefire talks and even the travel plans
of Prime Minister Netanyahu just a few hours ago suggesting that he may be leaving the country to pursue these talks.
I called you immediately. You said this is not what you are hearing. But then you did highlight and report that Prime Minister Netanyahu traveled to
Syria, actually, the Hermon Mountain Ridge. And this was the border with Syria, that was Syrian territory, that since the fall of Bashar al-Assad
we've seen Israeli troops move into the region there along the border in that buffer zone with Golan Heights.
He had a cabinet meeting today or a domestic security meeting today there as well. What kind of message is he sending by doing that, Barak?
RAVID: I think that several interesting things here. First, Netanyahu was supposed to be in court today testifying in his corruption trial. And he
has asked the judges in a closed door hearing to postpone today's testimony because of security reasons.
And then he went to the Syrian side of the board with Israel. I'm not sure that this is what the judges had in mind when they agreed to his request,
that's number one. Number two, it's the first time ever that an Israeli prime minister is doing a photo op in Syrian territory. It's something that
never happened in history and it tells you a lot about where we are right now with the situation in Syria and with the way that the Israeli
government is -- and how the Israeli government is handling the situation with sending forces into the buffer zone and even further than the buffer
zone deep into Syrian territory and into the Syrian part of Mount Hermon. This is the highest point in the region. It's a strategic Syrian outpost
that is now manned by Israeli soldiers.
[12:15:01]
GOLODRYGA: Yes. I mean, it's one thing to go after chemical weapons, depots, and weapons caches. That is something that I think serious people
would say Israel had the right to do. I think others are raising questions about what could appear to be provocation by photo ops like this right now
at such a fragile and unstable moment.
RAVID: And also, you know, Bianna -- and Bianna, also, what does it mean about Netanyahu's long-term plans? Does this mean that the Israeli
government is planning to hold those territories in Syria long term? They say it's temporary. OK? But temporary is not a week or two weeks or one
month. It seems that temporary is at least for another few months, maybe a year, and afterwards, you know, in Israel and the Middle East, everything
that starts as being temporary is turns into permanent.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Yes. We will definitely be watching in the weeks and months to come for sure.
Barak Ravid, thank you, as always, for joining us. Appreciate you taking the time.
RAVID: Thanks, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we are learning more this hour about Monday's deadly school shooting in Wisconsin, which police say was carried out by a 15-
year-old student. Authorities now say Natalie Rupnau appears to have died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound at the Abundant Life Christian School.
Police say a teacher and a student were killed in the attack and six people injured. There's no word yet on a motive for the shooting, but authorities
say they're investigating what may be a manifesto related to the shooter.
The suspect's home is also being searched and were told her parents are cooperating with the investigation. Here's more from Madison's police
chief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHON BARNES, MADISON POLICE CHIEF: Well, we will certainly look at all facts and aspects of this case, as they were voluntarily giving information
that certainly helps to determine, you know, if they were involved. If they were -- if this was pre-planned. We don't have any evidence that it was,
but we also want to look at if the parents may have been negligent. And that's a question that we'll have to answer with our district attorney's
office. But at this time, it does not appear to be the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Let's bring in CNN's Natasha Chen. Natasha, thanks for joining us. And we are just in early hours here of the investigation, but notable
that this was a female shooter. Typically, we see that they are male student shooters in these cases.
Also learning that her parents are cooperating with investigators. What more are you hearing?
NATASHA CHEN, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Bianna, as you say, this is a very unusual circumstance when it comes to the gender of the
shooter. Police are still trying to figure out a motive here.
As you mentioned, and as the police chief mentioned, there may be a manifesto that was posted out there by someone alleging to be the shooter's
friend.
The chief did say that they would try to locate that person today and also to locate any devices of the shooter to see if there was communication
between her and someone else.
As you mentioned, the parents of the shooter are cooperative with police right now. And they are -- investigators are trying to figure out the
origin of this gun, whether the parents possessed it or owned it, police are asking ATF to do a trace so they can figure out where this gun was
purchased, when, by whom, to trace it all the way to how it got into the hands of this 15-year-old.
This has been incredibly devastating for this private school community, the greater community of Madison. A second grader had to call 911. And this
happened in a classroom that was a study hall of mixed grade students. Here are some students reacting to the trauma.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard them and then some people started crying. And then we just waited until the police came. And then the (INAUDIBLE) is out.
I was scared. Why did they do that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was getting ready for lunch, so it was basically lunchtime. And then I just heard siding. And there was a teacher and she
was screaming like, my leg, help, help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: It's just so much for young people to witness that and for one of them to act so quickly, to know to call 911.
Apparently, we were told the school had trained for an active shooter scenario just earlier in the year.
There was a teacher and a student killed. As we know, there are six others injured. Two of those injured are students in critical condition with life-
threatening injuries. We do not know if these victims were singled out by the shooter. That's something investigators are also working on.
And they are waiting to make sure that all family members are notified before possibly releasing names of victims. We're expecting another
briefing from police in less than two hours here.
And just to note, Bianna, this is at least the 83rd U.S. school shooting this year. And that surpasses the record from 2023 for the most school
shootings in a single year since CNN started tracking such shootings in 2008, Bianna. Just an incredible amount of trauma for this community and
the country to be dealing with right before the holidays.
[12:20:19]
GOLODRYGA: A uniquely American tragedy. The fact that a second grader has the wherewithal to call 911 and is somewhat prepared and has to go through
these active school shooting scenarios and drills is just -- it's our reality and it's a sad one.
Natasha Chen, thank you.
CHEN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, Mark Pocan represents Madison, Wisconsin, in the U.S. Congress, and he's long been a supporter of stronger gun laws. As his
community mourns the lives lost Monday, he spoke to CNN about the need to do more to stop school shootings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARK POCAN (D-WI): We need to be more outraged. I mean, everyone. Look, Congress is going to once again bow to the gun manufacturers who make
up the NRA. It's not individual gun owners. No one's trying to take away someone's hunting rifle. But this is a uniquely United States problem
that's funded by the gun manufacturers. And we have so many guns and it's become so accepted and so commonplace that Congress won't act. And we need
to be more upset about this.
There's this many shootings in the United States. It's uniquely -- we're number one. And it's not something you want to be number one in. It's so
bad, Jim, that, you know, we even had some media today that we originally were going to do and canceled and they said, oh, it got downgraded only two
deaths.
If that is the societal response, we are screwed. We have to do more as a society. We have to be more outraged that you drop your kid off to a school
and you're not sure they're going to be safe. That's completely unacceptable and we all need to speak out much louder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: All right. Still to come for us, they're flocking to Florida. Top tech CEOs make the pilgrimage to Palm Beach to cozy up with President-
elect Trump. We'll have a live report on who's next on the list, ahead.
And later, reporters keep asking, but he won't answer. RFK Jr. goes quiet as he meets with senators on Capitol Hill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Thousands of families in Syria are searching prisons, hospitals, and morgues to try and find loved ones who vanished during the brutal
dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad.
[12:25:01]
Now, a chilling assessment coming from a U.S.-based advocacy group. The executive director of the Syrian Emergency Task Force says, hundreds of
thousands of bodies could be buried in mass graves throughout the country.
CNN's Melissa Bell has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The next step of what we've seen unfold in Syria for more than two weeks now, first those
terrible images of the jails being liberated, then the desperate search for loved ones.
Now these mass graves that we'd had hints about way before Bashar al-Assad fell, of course. The International Commission on Missing Persons speaks of
a man known as the gravedigger who appeared before a German court back in 2020 who described his role in taking truckloads of dead bodies to some of
these sites.
And that site you showed a moment ago at (INAUDIBLE) to the outskirts of Damascus, what we were hearing was happening there from some of the truck
drivers involved is that it was each week that four tractor trailer loads of bodies containing 150 bodies each were brought twice a week between 2012
and 2018. And that of course alone would mean many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of bodies possibly.
So this grim task now of trying to extract the bodies and identifying them begins. Although what we understand also from some of these advocacy groups
that are involved in trying to get cameras to these sites and to help them be cleared and opened up that the bodies can be retrieved is that what we
understand happened is that once the bodies were brought, they were then bulldozed in order to make them sufficiently small that they could be put
into these very large graves.
So the process of identification is also likely to prove very difficult. But this -- the sad next step in this unfolding tragedy, where so many of
these estimated 150,000 people who are still believed to be missing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Just horrifying.
We turn now to another tragedy, hundreds, if not thousands, are feared dead in the French territory of Mayotte, off the coast of Mozambique, after the
worst cyclone to hit the region in at least 90 years.
These images show some of the neighborhoods, both before and after the storm, some entirely flattened or completely wiped out. The damage is so
widespread that some are comparing it to the aftermath of a nuclear war.
French President Emmanuel Macron says that he'll visit the island in the coming days. And officials have already pledged resources to assist.
A powerful 7.3 earthquake shook the Pacific island nation of Vanuatu earlier today. The U.S. Geological Survey says that it struck off the coast
of the capital, Port Vila. Due to a network outage, the official death toll is not known yet, but one person was confirmed dead.
Officials fear people may be trapped under the rubble. Tsunami warnings were issued but later canceled and significant damage to buildings was
reported, including the U.S. Embassy, which just opened there back in July. We're told it is closed until further notice.
Well, Donald Trump hosts a parade of billionaires and business chiefs in Florida this week, all of them vying for his attention and his favor. The
coming hours, the U.S. president-elect is set to meet with the head of Netflix, Ted Sarandos, while Amazon founder Jeff Bezos is expected to visit
Trump at Mar-a-Lago Wednesday. Recent guests include the CEOs of Meta, Apple, and TikTok.
Let's bring in CNN's Alayna Treene who's in West Palm Beach, Florida. Alayna, talk about the significance of these meetings and what we heard
Donald Trump yesterday suggest that perhaps they seem to be liking him more. There's been a change in perception as to his leadership style
relative to 2016. And the last time he met -- or the first time he really met as president-elect with some of these executives.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: You know, that's exactly right, Bianna. And I'll start with that point because it is a very different shift in tone and
tenor really. From what we've seen Donald Trump and these different major CEOs, particularly these big tech companies have during Donald Trump's
first term, I remind you that some of these people specifically, you know, just to give you one example, Mark Zuckerberg, I mean, him and Donald Trump
had a very hostile relationship during Donald Trump's first administration.
Trump repeatedly argued that Zuckerberg and Meta, but mainly Facebook, was censoring conservatives and also blamed him, but other major tech companies
as well, for what he believed was playing a role in his 2020 election loss, arguing that they interfered with the election given the policies that they
had regarding their social media platforms.
All to say that is very different from the type of tone and tenor that we're hearing them have in these recent meetings. When I talked to Donald
Trump's transition team, those who were involved in some of these meetings or have been read out on them, they argue that these leaders are very much
approaching Donald Trump in a much friendlier way, that essentially they're the ones reaching out to him, trying to set up these calls, trying to set
up these meetings, and wanting to really smooth relations before Donald Trump is sworn into office on January 20th.
[12:30:15]
And this is what Donald Trump said. He acknowledged this yesterday during his news conference. He said that back during his first term, many of these
leaders wanted to fight him, and now that they all want to be his friend.
But I would argue as well that Donald Trump is striking a much friendlier tone with them as well. He is very much embracing these moments. I'm told
that he is welcoming, having all of these leaders calling him up, wanting to meet with them. He is excited when they decided they're going to fly
down to his Mar-a-Lago home and have dinner with him or meet with him out on his patio.
And so this is really, I think, you know, a shift in from what we've seen from before. I think a key question, of course, though, is what this will
mean moving forward as we look ahead to the next four years.
Now, as for some of the contents of these meetings, when I talk to Trump advisors about this, they say some of this is really introductory, is
really having them meet face to face for the first time since he won the election. Many of these people he hadn't met face to face before.
But also, of course, this is going to have implications. And in case, you know, and we're looking at what Donald Trump will do policy-wise, a lot of
these leaders know that Donald Trump's tariffs, that his tax policy, all of that could potentially affect their businesses. And some of that is coming
up in their conversations as well.
But again, it's very notable that not only is he meeting, you know, with these leaders, but the number of leaders that he is meeting with,
particularly given the fact that he hasn't even been sworn into office yet. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And a few -- a few of these leaders are already pledging and contributing a million dollars for his --
TREENE: Right.
GOLODRYGA: inauguration as well.
Alayna Treene, always good to see you. Thank you.
Well, Donald Trump is blasting a ruling on his New York hush money case and railing against the judge in the case. This after New York judge Juan
Merchan ruled evidence presented by prosecutors was not related to Trump's official conduct as president and rejected a motion by Trump's lawyers to
toss out the case.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in July that presidents have broad immunity from prosecution for official acts.
In May, a jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts for falsifying business records to cover up payments to adult film star, Stormy Daniels.
Well, coming up for us, how the man Donald Trump has tapped for the most powerful health position in the country wants to change the water in your
faucet, the milk you drink, and a host of other things we use every day. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:35:13]
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
Robert Kennedy Jr. is back on Capitol Hill this hour talking to senators who will have to vote on whether he should be confirmed as secretary of
Health and Human Services.
Kennedy's long history of skepticism and outright opposition to vaccines has made him among the most controversial of Trump's cabinet picks. He
spoke to reporters on his way in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Kennedy. Senator Murkowski said that she wants you to say that vaccine save lives. Do you
believe that vaccines save lives?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it your plan to end all childhood vaccines, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, have you talked about pesticides with any of the senators?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you tell parents? What do you tell parents who are concerned about the prospect of getting rid of some vaccines? Is that
something you're discussing with senators, sir?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We're going to take a deep dive into America's relationship with vaccines over the next several minutes and we start with what the public
opinion polls show. And for that we welcome in CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten. My friend, it's good to see you. I'm nervous to ask what do
Americans think about vaccines right now.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes. You know, oftentimes you and I talking, you know, it's a joyous, you know, it's a joyous sort of
conversation going back and forth.
This to me, though, is one of the more worrisome segments that we're going to do, worrisome trends. And we'll just start off right here, just in terms
of vaccinating children, believing that it's highly important. That is extremely or very important. We have both the trend line with all
Americans, all adults and among Republican adults.
And I want you to take a look here because among all adults, what we see is back in 2001, it was 94 percent who believed it was highly important to
vaccinate children. It drops to 84 percent in 2019.
And then look at where we are in 2024 among all adults. It's all the way down to just 69 percent. That's a drop of 25 points since the beginning of
the century. Why is that drop occurring? Well, it's in large part occurring because what is going on with Republicans?
You can see right here, look at Republicans 93 percent believe that it was highly important to vaccinate children back in 2001. You drop down to 79
percent in 2019. Look at where we are this year, just 54 percent. That's a drop of nearly 40 percentage points since the beginning of the 2000s. My
goodness gracious.
Now, why Republicans becoming a little bit more skeptical or highly more skeptical of vaccinations? I think this question really gets at it. All
right. The question is, think vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they're designed to protect against. We're looking among Republicans.
Of course, this is a (INADUIBLE). This isn't true. But a lot of Republicans believe it. Look at 2001. It was five percent. 2019, 13 percent. Look at
where we jumped up to this year, 32 percent. Nearly a third of Republicans somehow believe that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they're
designed to protect against.
I think a lot of this has to do with government distrust. Obviously, the COVID pandemic. A lot of Republicans turning against those vaccine
mandates. But it's not just among Republicans where we're seeing this skepticism of vaccinations, right?
Let's look at parents because obviously they're the ones who play a large role in whether or not their kids get vaccinated. How do parents feel about
vaccinating children? Again, this is among parents, those who have children under the age of 18. Those who think it's extremely or very important to
vaccinate their children, look where we were in 2019, it was 77 percent.
Look at where we are in 2024, it's just 58 percent. That's a drop of nearly 20 points in just five years.
The bottom line is that vaccinating children, of course, is very important. Any real good doctor would tell you that, but skepticism among the public
is becoming ever higher. And I think RFK, and the fact that he has a pretty good chance of winning, of winning and becoming the Health and Human
Services secretary, I think is in large part a reflection of these trends that we see among the American public.
[12:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Well, let's talk to a real good medical expert. Harry Enten, thank you.
ENTEN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Let's dig a bit deeper into Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and the views that make him so controversial. He is one of America's best known vaccine
skeptics and founded an organization that claimed many childhood vaccines led to autism, a position not supported by medical science.
Now he fought to remove fluoride from the nation's water supply, calling it a toxic pollutant. He spread numerous conspiracy theories about the COVID
vaccine, prompting some social media platforms to ban him from spreading harmful misinformation. And he has claimed the drug AZT, which is used to
treat HIV and AIDS, is not effective and that it only has official approval, so the drug makers can rake in profits.
And he says people should drink more raw milk, even though studies show unpasteurized milk can contain E. coli, salmonella, and other dangerous
bacteria.
OK. Time now for The Exchange. You want to talk about all of these controversial views with, as I noted, a real doctor, Dr. Paul Offit. And
he's a member of the FDA's Vaccine Advisory Committee and Director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital at Philadelphia. Dr.
Offit, thank you so much for joining us.
First, if I could get you to respond to those stunning numbers we saw from Harry in the recent polling of just how many Americans lack trust in
vaccines when 2001, 94 percent of all Americans thought that vaccines were effective and good for society. That number dropped to 69 percent today.
And from 93 percent in 2001 for Republicans to 54 percent now.
PAUL OFFIT, MEMBER, FDA VACCINE ADVISORY COMMITTEE: And you're seeing the effects. I mean, the CDC recently published data showing that more parents
are choosing to exempt their children from vaccines than ever before. In some regions, it's as high as five percent are choosing not to vaccinate
them.
And as a consequence, we're losing herd immunity. So last year, there were roughly 3,000 cases of pertussis or whooping cough. This year, there's
17,000. Last year, we had four outbreaks of measles. This year, we have 16 outbreaks. Last year, we had 50 cases of measles. This year, we have 250
cases of measles.
So you're seeing the effects of people having choosing not to vaccinate their children. And it's always the children who suffer our ignorance.
GOLODRYGA: Yesterday, we heard the president-elect at his press conference and speaking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. saying, quote, he's going to be
much less radical than you would think.
We just listed just some of his controversial comments and views in the introduction to you. What is your reaction to Trump nominating him to head
Health and Human Services?
OFFIT: I think we should believe Robert F. Kennedy Jr. when he says things over the past several years. He is what he appears to be. He has said that
the COVID vaccine is the most dangerous vaccine ever made.
In an interview last year, he said no vaccine is of value. He said that the polio vaccine has killed many, many, many more people than it's saved. I
mean, this is a man -- he's not -- he's not a skeptic. I mean, it's reasonable to be skeptical about things. He's a cynic. He doesn't believe
data. He's a science denialist. He's a conspiracy theorist and a virulent anti-vaccine activist.
And were he to actually be confirmed as head of Health and Human Services, I think it would be a dangerous time to be a child in the United States of
America.
GOLODRYGA: That is a scary statement. He says now that he's all in, and all in favor of a polio vaccine, according to one senator who met with him
yesterday. RFK is not anti-vaxx. He just wants more transparency around vaccines.
Dr. Offit, you've been researching, you've been working in this field for a number of years. Vaccines have been proven to be effective and safe for
decades now. What does that even mean more transparency? Is there not enough transparency if people really want to see the raw data?
OFFIT: They can see the raw data. Everybody can see the raw data. That's not what he means. What he means is that the data have not conformed with
his fixed beliefs. His immutable beliefs. So he believes, for example, that the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine causes autism, even though there have
been 18 studies in seven countries, on -- in three different continents involving thousands of children showing that it doesn't.
So when he says we need more transparency, what he means is that those articles don't conform with his preconceived notion that the vaccines cause
autism. That's cynicism. And it's a -- it's a dangerous thing.
If we have someone in that position, head of Health and Human Services, who doesn't believe in scientific studies and who will only believe in
scientific studies, if they prove his sort of biases like the polio vaccine actually killed many, many more people than it's saved, which is, of
course, absurd. I mean, in the early 1950s, there were 18,000 cases of paralysis a year and 1,900 deaths from polio a year, within a few years
that declined to fewer than 100 cases. And that's because of the polio vaccine.
[12:45:04]
So I don't know what he's talking about, but it is a frightening time right now.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. I think it's safe to say that one of the Trump administration's greatest achievements, the first term was Operation Warp
Speed, where normally it would take years for a vaccine to be approved and go through the trial phase. This happened at literally warp speed as the
operation was called within just a matter of months.
The president-elect said that he had dinner recently with the CEOs of Eli Lilly and Pfizer, one of the makers of the vaccine. Is that reassuring to
you at all, given that he spoke with these two heads of companies?
OFFIT: No, not particularly. I think that Donald Trump has a history starting in 2015, 2016 of being anti-vaccine. When he -- when he was in a
Republican debate heading up to the 2016 election, he made a statement that vaccines cause autism.
He was considering having RFK Jr. his head of a sort of vaccine safety and scientific integrity commission. He said children get too many vaccines,
that they're getting like forced doses of vaccines.
So I think he has a history of being anti-vaccine. And I think that's why he's not appalled by having somebody like RFK Jr. to be in a position like
that. So no, I'm not reassured.
GOLODRYGA: Quickly, in our final seconds here, there are four current senators who I checked who are medical doctors. Interestingly enough, they
are all Republicans.
What is the most important question you think they should be asking Robert F. Kennedy Jr. when they meet with him?
OFFIT: They should ask him this question. I mean, read his book. He has a book called "The Real Anthony Fauci." In this book, he makes the following
statements. He says that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. They should ask him whether he thinks HIV causes AIDS. And if he doesn't think that, then why
are we giving anti-retroviral therapies, anti-AIDS therapies to people with AIDS?
They should ask him whether or not he plans to do what he said he's going to do, which is to pull back the polio vaccine until it's tested in a
prospective placebo controlled trial. Is that his plan?
They should ask him point blank whether he is going to do anything to disrupt the vaccine infrastructure in this country, like, for example,
exposed to liability by removing the vaccine injury compensation program.
And then we'll be back to where we were in the early '80s when company after company abandoned vaccines.
I worry for vaccines in this country, as is everybody who cares about children's health. This is a dangerous time.
GOLODRYGA: Dr. Paul Offit from the FDA's Vaccine Advisory Committee. Thank you so much for joining us.
OFFIT: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And more to come here after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:50:20]
GOLODRYGA: A woman who made headlines after she stood away on an international flight last month has been taken into custody again.
The law enforcement sources say that Svetlana Dali was caught Monday trying to sneak into Canada from the United States.
CNN's Randi Kaye has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Busted again. This time, Svetlana Dali was traveling by bus. Just last month, she had stowed away on
a Delta flight from JFK Airport in New York to Paris.
A law enforcement source tells CNN, Dali had managed to cut off her ankle monitor on Sunday and was taken into custody while on a Greyhound Bus bound
for Canada. Multiple law enforcement told CNN.
SVETLANA DALI, THE WOMAN WHO STOWED AWAY ON A DELTA FLIGHT TO PARIS: Help me. I don't want to go to United States.
KAYE: That was Dali last month, the first-time authorities tried to return the 57-year-old Russian national and a U.S. permanent resident to the
United States from Paris.
She created such a disturbance, Delta kicked her off the New York bound flight.
GARY TREICHLER, DELTA PASSENGER: What I saw was basically this lady that was progressively getting more and more irate and raising her voice louder
and louder.
KAYE (voice-over): Earlier this month, another attempt to bring her back to the United States was successful. Dali sat in the back of the aircraft and
was flanked by two French security officials the entire flight to JFK.
A week and a half ago, Dali was charged in federal court with one count of being a stowaway on a vessel or aircraft without consent. Among other
things, the judge ordered Dali to wear an ankle bracelet with a GPS monitor, surrender any travel documents, and told her she cannot go to
airports or leave the area where she is staying.
That includes, of course, jumping on a Greyhound bus to Canada. Dali had been staying with her roommate, a law enforcement source told CNN. Her
roommate reported her missing after he saw her GPS ankle bracelet on the floor.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And still to come for us, the first black woman to sit on a Supreme Court appears in a Broadway show. We'll give you a peek.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:55:59]
GOLODRYGA: For the first time since 2021, Prince Harry and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex, have shared a Christmas card featuring their children, whose
privacy they fiercely guard.
Released on Monday, the card shows a collage of images taken throughout the year. Other members of the royal family have also shared their festive
wishes. King Charles and Queen Camilla using a picture snapped back in April, showing the royal couple in Buckingham Palace.
Well, U.S. Supreme Court Justice has fulfilled another one of her life's goals. Take a look at Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson on Broadway, of all
places. She appeared in a show on Saturday called "& Juliet." It was just a one night performance for the Justice who calls this a teenage dream come
true.
Wow. What an experience that must have been for her. There you see Gayle King in attendance and the Justice smiling ear to ear.
Well, that does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Bianna Golodryga. "AMANPOUR" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
