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One World with Zain Asher
Ukraine Marks Three Years Since Russia's Full-Scale Invasion; European Leaders In Ukraine To Mark Three Years Since Russian Invasion; Several Agencies Push Back On Musk's Mass Email Threat; Federal Workers Dispute Musk's Claims, Admit System Needs Updating; Merz Hopes For Good Test With U.S. Despite Its "Waning" Interest; Israel Deploys Tanks In West Bank For First Time In Two Decades; Pop Icon Confirms Ninth Studio Album Underway. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired February 24, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:34]
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Coming to you live from New York, I'm Zain Asher. Bianna is off today. You are watching ONE WORLD.
In just a few minutes, U.S. President Donald Trump is set to hold talks with French President Emmanuel Macron at the White House. It comes on the
third anniversary of Russia's brutal full-scale invasion of Ukraine, at the moment of very deep uncertainty for U.S.-European ties.
The discussions are expected to focus on Ukraine, as the country officially enters its fourth year of war. And Mr. Macron says, he will warn the
president, quote, not to be weak in the face of Russian president, Vladimir Putin.
Meantime, at a roundtable summit in Kyiv with European leaders a short time ago, the Ukrainian president said he hopes the U.S. continues its support
for his country.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: We spoke about it. And we hope that United States will continue support like all the partners. All the
partners do it. And we need also not to lose this unity between Europe and United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: A Ukrainian official tells CNN that a U.S. deal with Kyiv to access its rare earth minerals is in its final stages. But one Ukrainian source
says the finalized draft leaves, quote, problematic details for later discussions.
Three years to the day after Russia -- Russia's unprovoked aggression on its democratic neighbor marked the largest military attack on Europe since
World War II. Leaders are paying tribute to those Ukrainians who made the ultimate sacrifice.
(TRUMPET PLAYING)
Visitors paid their respects to Ukrainian soldiers killed in the war before memorial made up of flags on Kyiv's central square. Earlier, President
Volodymyr Zelenskyy praised the absolute heroism of his nation. And here's the video tribute he posted to mark the somber occasion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Three years of gratitude. Three years of support. Three years of unity. Three years of assistance. Thank you for
these three years of us standing together in defense of our state and our people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us live now from Kyiv. So, Nick, you obviously have covered this war from the very beginning. You well know that
Ukrainians, of course, want this war to end, but not on Russia's terms. They fear that by rewarding the aggressor and essentially giving Russia a
lopsided peace deal in their favor, that would only incentivize them to reinvade at a later date. Just walk us through it.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, it's important to point out that the idea of a peace deal and a ceasefire
is still pretty distant. We don't know how far the United States and Russia's negotiations went in Saudi Arabia, but ultimately, Ukraine was not
at that particular table. And so it's going to be tough for anything that they agree to necessarily be signed up to by Ukraine, who are half the
people on the battlefield here.
Indeed, when Trump's envoy to the Ukraine-Russia conflict, General Keith Kellogg was here. We heard from President Zelenskyy today that he was
actually given a list of ceasefires and peace deals that Russia has broken in the past. Evidence, as it were, to explain Ukraine's lack of trust here.
And what has been extraordinary over the past week is to see the deterioration, frankly, in Ukraine's relationship with what has been for
three years now its key military and financial backer.
So much of the United States' future role in this war dependent on a successful signing of this rare earth and natural resources deal. We
understand, as you mentioned earlier, saying according to a Ukrainian source familiar with the negotiations that they're essentially going to be
presenting and talking about a framework for Ukrainian reconstruction.
A lot of the thornier issues will be, it seems, left to later agreements. This Ukrainian source says that some of the tougher things for Ukraine to
swallow have successfully been taken out, and they've made this as reasonable as they can. But they haven't managed to get in because the
Americans have resisted notions of security guarantees.
And so I think what we'll probably see indeed if the Americans accept this and the finalized draft has been sent to them, the Ukrainians are waiting
for a response as of a few hours ago.
What we are potentially seeing here is an initial agreement in broad terms and then the really complex, tricky, and ugly stuff of how much, when,
where, et cetera gets left to later negotiations, to try and as it were get sort of a smile on everyone's face and the relationship back on track and
deal with the dirtiest stuff down the road.
[12:05:12]
What is going to be complex is security guarantees. Ukraine desperately needs them in the text in order to be able to see any real point, frankly,
in handing over so much of their natural resources to the United States. That is something the Ukrainian sources might end up being part of a
president on president meeting.
But Trump's relationship with Zelenskyy has been in free-fall over the past week, mostly, because of a series of falsehoods that he's levelled against
the Ukrainian president.
And I think when I asked President Zelenskyy about whether he could mend his relationship with Donald Trump yesterday, there was sort of a pause and
he said the relationship had never been in the best way and a bit of nervous laughter in the room.
That is ultimately the biggest problem perhaps here that those two men aren't able to get past the frankly horrific nature of last week in the
Washington-Kyiv relationship. That could be problematic for this rare earth mineral deal. And indeed any aid that may flow after it.
But today, a show of solidarity certainly from 13 world leaders who have taken the days long train journey to come in here and stand alongside
Zelenskyy, many joining virtually as well, but still the sort of absence of certainty of American support felt heavily I think during this meeting.
The Europeans strident in what they were willing to offer, the billions of dollars of aid, the U.K. suggesting they would send peacekeeping troops if
indeed other European nations did. There was the right conditions and the U.S. provided a backstop of logistical and technical support.
So things that are being offered, but I think so much of that really begins to falter or look frail if we don't have the Trump administration still
supporting Ukraine. That's the ultimate problem here and one I think that there's no immediate obvious answer to.
ASHER: Nick Paton Walsh, live for us there. Thank you so much.
All right. Let's bring in John Herbst in Kyiv. He's the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and is now the Senior Director of the Atlantic
Council's Eurasia Center.
Ambassador, obviously, you are, especially today, the perfect person to speak to. You know, obviously, there has been so much concern about the
number of concessions that Donald Trump is willing to offer Putin in the name of peace.
I just want to get your take on whether you think, at this point, Vladimir Putin genuinely wants a durable and lasting ceasefire here.
JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Of course not. What Putin wants is to establish effective Kremlin political control over Ukraine. So
he wants to take a good bit more Ukrainian territory, and he wants to change the government in Kyiv. He wants to be able to control the place.
And so he's not interested in a real ceasefire. He might be willing to do a tactical ceasefire, which he would then break at a time he considers most
advantageous for himself.
ASHER: So the most important thing here, of course, is the security guarantees, is the fact that it's the idea that Ukraine will get security
guarantees from Europe, and obviously they are hoping for some kind of partnership with the United States.
What sort of security guarantees should they be asking for? What is the best possible outcome from that perspective?
HERBST: Look, I've been an advocate for a long time of Ukraine joining NATO because that would stop Russian aggression against Ukraine. But
unfortunately, the Biden administration was too timid to do it, and the Trump administration doesn't seem to understand how important this would be
to American interests. So it's really not on the table.
But I think that in the fuss that Trump has raised with Zelenskyy, which is truly unfortunate and not good for American interests, he's turned away, I
don't think necessarily permanently, from the sound ideas that he and his team have been talking about for several months, even before they took
office, which is a establishing a durable peace by, one, having Ukraine compromise on territorial integrity and NATO membership for about 20 years.
And having Russia compromise by agreeing to the deployment of Russian -- excuse me, of European, peace enforces into Ukraine and accepting major
arms from the United States and the West to Ukraine.
Zelenskyy has demonstrated flexibility. Putin has demonstrated no flexibility, which is why Trump, five weeks ago, declared that Putin
correctly was the obstacle to peace.
Unfortunately, the Trump team has, for some reason, headed off in a different direction, which does not suit American interests and obviously
could mean a disaster for Ukraine.
ASHER: When you have Zelenskyy saying that he's still hopeful for some kind of a partnership, some kind of strong alliance, strategic relationship with
the U.S., but then you have Donald Trump turning around and calling Zelenskyy a dictator, and essentially saying that Ukraine bears
responsibility for this war, how on earth can there still be a partnership between the U.S. and Ukraine at this point, given what's been said?
[12:10:59]
HERBST: I think it's important to distinguish between substance and core issues and superficial issues.
Now, what we've seen coming from the president and his team, President Trump and his team over the past, now what, 12 days, has been ugly and,
again, not consistent with the policy he was outlining and with his own and with American interests.
But we've seen Trump back up a little, because he then said, yes, Russia is the aggressive, and he was pushed very hard by, I think, Brian Kilmeade on
Fox News.
But the point is simple. If Trump were actually to stop American support for Ukraine or to broker a deal which clearly favored Putin, he would look
like Putin's poodle. And maybe he'll do that, but I don't think he wants to be seen as a weak man. And doing Putin's bidding, when, in fact, Putin is
the aggressor, when Putin calls the United States its principal adversary, is a very bad look for anyone who claims to be a strong president.
ASHER: That is exactly what President Macron of France is going to bring up today. We're actually expecting President Macron to arrive at the White
House any moment now. We're expecting him in about five minutes or so.
And he is going to warn President Trump about this idea of appearing weak in front of President Putin. Obviously, Macron has known Donald Trump for a
while. He knew him in his first term. He understands how to appeal to Trump's ego, for lack of a better word. How will that help him negotiate
with Trump in the meeting we're about to see?
HERBST: Look, Trump already praised the efforts we've seen in Europe just over the past five or so days to develop a concept for deploying European
troops to Ukraine. So he should welcome this. I mean, he's already praised it. I think he will welcome it.
And that, plus, I think, an emerging deal on minerals. And we definitely need, we desperately need Ukraine's critical and rare earth minerals. They
have a fair amount of these things. China's got almost a lock on this between the minerals on their own territory and their refining capacity.
We need this because China's our adversary. The Trump team gets this. So despite maybe the not very adroit negotiations at the beginning, there's
going to be a deal. And between that deal and the Europeans stepping up, consistent with the ideas Trump outlined for, again, for months, means that
we're going to see real anchors in the water steadying the relationship between the U.S. and Ukraine, because we both have a vital interest.
We have a vital interest in Putin's defeat in Ukraine, meaning, that Putin cannot go any farther than he has. And Ukraine emerges or maintains its
status as a sovereign, economically viable, and secure country.
ASHER: Ambassador John Herbst, live for us there. Thank you so much. Really good to have --
HERBST: My pleasure.
ASHER: -- your insights, especially on today, especially today.
All right. Still to come, Elon Musk gives all federal workers a deadline to justify their jobs, but some federal agencies are pushing back.
Also ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The most number of people that could retire possibly in a month is 10,000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure where that number came from.
GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's no limit?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no limit.
MUSK: All the retirement paperwork is manual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is not true. It's not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Federal workers, from one of the most secured government offices, are sounding off after Elon Musk targeted their workplace.
And new music from Rihanna is in the works. We'll take a look at what the pop star is saying about her long-awaited next album.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[12:15:06]
CHARLES BROWN JR., FORMER UNITED STATES CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: When I'm flying, I put my helmet on, my visor down, my mask up. You
don't know who I am, whether I'm African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic, white, male or female. You just know I'm an American Airman
kicking your butt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Colorful words there from U.S. Air Force General Charles Brown. He was chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the highest position in the U.S.
military, until Donald Trump fired him on Friday.
Trump and his Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, upended U.S. military leadership over the weekend as they dismissed Brown and then the head of
the Navy and the vice chief of the Air Force as well.
Hegseth, last year, called Navy Chief Lisa Franchetti a DEI hire in his book, claiming that she only got the job because she was a woman. There are
only hours left for thousands of U.S. government employees to respond to an ominous demand from Elon Musk.
He instructed the Office of Personnel Management to send a mass email to federal employees over the weekend demanding that they list five things
they did on their jobs last week. Musk said any employee who did not reply to that email by midnight tonight will effectively be resigning, i.e. they
will be out of a job if they do not reply to that.
But several government agencies are pushing back. The FBI, the State Department, and the Department of Defense are among a handful of agencies
who told employees not to respond to that email.
Rene Marsh is tracking this story for us. I mean, I imagine there's going to be all sorts of legal sort of consequences and pushbacks. And I'm
curious what unions are saying about this, this letter essentially from Elon Musk via OPM.
RENE MARSH, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There certainly will be legal pushback. We're already seeing that this morning, and we'll get to that in
a second. But to your point, just even on the agency level, we're seeing that pushback. There's six total agencies from the Department of Defense
and the FBI where they've told their employees not to respond due to the sensitive nature of the work that they do.
And in an email specifically, a Trump ally and FBI Director Kash Patel told his workforce, quote, the FBI, through the office of the director, is in
charge of all of our review processes. So, for now, please pause any response.
Now, Elon Musk, keep in mind, is not an elected official, not Senate- confirmed to run any agency, and he is asking employees to report outside of their chain of command. Clearly not something that agency heads are
willing to go along with.
Meantime, there are several agencies that still have not given any guidance as of this morning on how to deal with this email, asking them to list the
five things that they accomplished last week.
At last check, the EPA, the Labor Department, and IRS, employees tell me that there is a great deal of uncertainty because the agency has not given
any guidance.
And keep in mind, Zain, this is a workforce that is dealing with the mental anguish of paid leave. Thousands of employees already laid off with more
layoffs on the horizon. As one person said, it's enough to mentally break you. And that may very well be just exactly what Elon Musk intends as his
goal is to really shrink the federal workforce. And if you can get some to leave on their own, that is what he would like.
But as far as the legal pushback, we've seen that the labor unions that had previously filed a lawsuit in the state of California last week,
essentially looking to have the judge pause the Trump administration's firing of federal employees.
This morning, we see that they have updated that lawsuit to also include this email that has come from Elon Musk over the weekend. And essentially
what they're arguing is, there is no regulation on the books that says that employees of the federal government are required to report outside of their
chain of command what work that they have done or completed. That is just not a duty for these employees.
[12:20:17]
And so, again, we are seeing, like many of the Trump administration's policies, many of them being challenged in court. Zain?
ASHER: Rene Marsh, live for us there. Thank you so much.
All right. Two thousand USAID employees are starting the week without a job. Rene Marsh is actually speaking about the mass layoffs earlier, just a
moment ago. They were informed by email on Sunday that they would be laid off while the remaining employees would be placed on administrative leave.
Only a small group involved in critical humanitarian projects will remain in their roles. Some Democratic politicians are speaking out against those
cuts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): All this talk about USAID. I have visited people on the front lines stopping infectious diseases from coming here. To have
scientists in dangerous areas like Kampala suddenly not be able to get their access to their cell phone, their emails, and be cut off by a
president and Elon Musk who are in a ham-handed, incompetent way cutting funding that makes no sense and ultimately won't make a difference on our
deficit because the president wants to rack it up to give tax cuts to the wealthiest and create even bigger deficits in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: A government office housed in an old Pennsylvania mine and deep in Trump country is in Elon Musk's crosshairs. During an Oval Office event
last week, Musk made critical comments about that office, but now employees there are pushing back.
CNN's Gabe Cohen has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COHEN (voice-over): Beneath the rolling hills of western Pennsylvania --
COHEN: Really is just off some rural road.
COHEN (voice-over): -- an old limestone mine houses one of the most remote and secure government offices.
COHEN: You can see the entrance. It looks like that's about as far as you can get before you have to go through security.
COHEN (voice-over): Nearly 700 civil servants here process almost every retirement from the federal workforce.
COHEN: We're here in Butler County because of recent comments that Elon Musk made about this facility and about the people who work here, comments
that have really rocked this rural area.
MUSK: There's a limestone mine where we store all the retirement paperwork.
COHEN (voice-over): From the Oval Office last week, Musk criticized the operation as one that epitomizes government inefficiency.
MUSK: It's like a time warp. And the elevator breaks down sometimes, and then nobody can retire. You can do practically anything else and you would
add to the goods and services of the United States in a more useful way.
DANIEL BONGINO, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CONSPIRACY THEORIST, RADIO SHOW HOST, AUTHOR: Is this the freaking "Flintstones?"
COHEN (voice-over): Those comments got a lot of pickup.
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: Musk wants to rescue these government gremlins from working underground.
Does President Trump promise we're going to shut this cave down?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Yes, he does.
COHEN (voice-over): The federal workers here are on edge. They got a memo warning them not to talk to reporters.
COHEN: Are you ready?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yep.
COHEN: Okay. How are you feeling?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. Better.
COHEN (voice-over): And yet five of them and a former supervisor sat down with us because they say many of Musk's claims were false. We're masking
their face and changing their voice because they're scared of retaliation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody has kind of been silenced at this point. We all need these jobs.
COHEN: Tell me about that elevator.
MUSK: And the elevator breaks down sometimes, and then nobody can retire.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no elevator. No elevator at all. You walk down into the mine, it looks like any other office building.
MUSK: The most numbers of people that could retire possibly in a month is 10,000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure where that number came from.
COHEN: There's no limit?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no limit.
MUSK: All the retirement paperwork is manual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is not true. It's not.
COHEN (voice-over): Built in the 1950s, transformed from a mine, it was renovated over the years into a temperature and climate-controlled
facility. It's owned by a company called Iron Mountain. And private companies also store vulnerable items like film reels and photographs.
But it's not just Musk who criticizes the processing of retirement claims. For years, this office has been criticized for processing too slowly, over-
reliance on paper, and insufficient staffing. Some of the workers we spoke to agree the system needs updating.
But completely shutting this facility down would devastate Butler County where the federal government is the biggest employer. It's also Trump
country. He got nearly two-thirds of the vote here, and the mine is just 20 miles from the fairgrounds where he was nearly assassinated.
Did you support President Trump?
JASON MCBRIDE, MARION TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS: I did. I did support President Trump. Yes. I think he's the president of the people. That's the
message this area has.
I need two large for the underground.
COHEN (voice-over): Jason McBride is a supervisor in this tiny town.
MCBRIDE: Thanks for choosing McBrides. Could I help you?
COHEN (voice-over): And runs the only restaurant, this pizza shop.
MCBRIDE: OK, buddy. What's your number there? I'll give you a call when I enter the mines.
COHEN: They deliver into the mine almost daily.
[12:25:01]
MCBRIDE: And I just would hate to think that a stroke of a pen in Washington D.C. could change the future of our area. Whether you're the gas
station or you're the pizza guy, it would be detrimental to all of us.
COHEN: If he shuts down that facility, will you still support him?
MCBRIDE: No. We'll have to wait and see on that. Good people dedicated their lives to this facility for the federal government, and they deserve
to be heard.
COHEN: Who did you vote for in November?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump. First time I ever voted.
COHEN: First time you ever voted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was never even registered to vote before that. When he talked about government employees, we didn't think that was going to be
us. I wish I could take it back because I feel like now my whole livelihood could be changed because of him being president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: Some in Hollywood are responding to the changes in Washington. Sunday night was the SAG Awards, one of the biggest Hollywood celebrations
outside of the Oscars. There was noticeably little in the way of political commentary from the winners until Jane Fonda stepped the microphone to
accept her Lifetime Achievement Award. Fonda, who has been outspoken on war and civil rights for decades, pulled no punches in encouraging the audience
to speak out and step up in the face of injustice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE FONDA, ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST: Workers' power is being attacked and community is being weakened. Make no mistake, empathy is not weak or woke.
And by the way, woke just means you give a damn about other people.
Any of you ever watched a documentary of one of the great social movements like apartheid or our civil rights movement or Stonewall and asked
yourself, would you have been brave enough to walk the bridge? Would you have been able to take the hoses and the batons and the dogs? We don't have
to wonder anymore because we are in our documentary moment. This is it. And it's not a rehearsal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: All right. Still to come, the likely next Chancellor of Germany calls for independence from the United States as the far right sees a surge
of support. Details of Germany's snap election results, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:30:52]
ASHER: All right. You're looking at live pictures of President Macron of France arriving at the White House there. He is alongside Donald Trump. Of
course, today is the third anniversary of the war in Ukraine. President Macron is there to speak to President Trump about this idea of not
appearing weak in front of Russia and not offering too many concessions to Vladimir Putin.
It comes after the U.S. held direct talks with Russia in Saudi Arabia about the end to this war. And the future of the negotiations in terms of a
ceasefire. And these are pictures from just moments ago when Macron actually pulled up. And there he is shaking the U.S. president's hand
there.
All right. The man expected to be Germany's next chancellor says that Europe must seek to achieve independence from the United States. Friedrich
Merz says U.S. President Donald Trump's comments last week show his administration is, quote, largely indifferent to the fate of Europe, but
Merz says destroying links would be detrimental to both the U.S. and Europe. And he wants to keep a good transatlantic relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRIEDRICH MERZ, CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATIC UNION LEADER (through translator): I would never have believed that I would ever have to think something like
this, let alone say it. But all the signals we are getting from the U.S. indicate that their interest in Europe is clearly waning and the
willingness to get involved in Europe is decreasing.
Nevertheless, I hope that we can convince the Americans that it is in our mutual interest that we continue to have good transatlantic relations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Glimmer results show Merz's center-right CDU and its sister party came out on top in Sunday's elections. Merz says he wants to form a
coalition government with his party's long-term rival, the Social Democrats, by pairing up with the SPD. Merz can sideline the far-right
alternative for Germany, which came in the second in the election.
All right. Time now for The Exchange. We want to take a deeper look at Germany's election results and other major developments today. Let's bring
in political and national security analyst for CNN David Sanger. He's a White House and national security correspondent for "The New York Times" as
well.
David, always good to have you on the show. So we just played a sound bite there from Friedrich Merz. What he said in precise terms was that the
Americans, basically the Trump administration, essentially doesn't really care about the fate of Europe one way or another.
How much truth is there to that statement, David?
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: There's a lot of truth to it. I'm in Berlin right now. And when he made that statement last
night, I think it really resounded around the Capitol and around the country.
Look, what have we seen in the past week? We have seen President Trump basically side with Vladimir Putin on the war. We have seen him call
Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the approach to the third anniversary of the invasion, a dictator.
We have seen him declare that it was really complicated. And maybe the Ukrainians brought the attack on themselves and could have talked Putin out
of it. This is all a giant rewriting of history.
The Russians invaded. There was no question about that. And now what we have seen basically is the president siding largely with President Putin
and opposing Europe on the question of this both G7 Summit marking the third anniversary of the war that notes that Russia was the aggressor and
same thing at the United Nations.
ASHER: A rewriting of history or a slick negotiating strategy by the U.S. president? I mean, some people think it's the latter. What are your
thoughts?
SANGER: He certainly would argue that you need to basically be neutral here in order to get a deal. That's a little bit different from the position
that President Trump took when he first came in and was threatening sanctions on Russia and so forth. So he's clearly moved on this.
It might be a slick negotiating strategy, but it's also a huge opportunity for President Putin. The opportunity he has been waiting for. Because at
the moment that you take away the morality of what happened and the question of international law and the question of whether or not the
invasion was illegal, then you're no longer saying that Russia is illegally occupying part of Ukraine. You're saying, let's just negotiate about where
this border is. It's a real estate problem.
[12:35:46]
And you could argue that at the end of the day, Russia was going to get whatever Russia occupies, which right now is about 20 percent of the
country. But to give that up before you even open the negotiations seems pretty remarkable to me.
ASHER: One of the things that has come out of and, obviously, Trump's time in office is just over a month old. One of the things that's come out of it
is the European understanding that they need to be that much more independent from the U.S., from the United States.
In fact, Friedrich Merz did say that my absolute priority will be to strengthen Europe as quickly as possible, so that, step by step, we can
achieve independence from the United States. He doesn't want to have a bad or a strained relationship with the U.S. They just want independence.
Walk us through what that looks like as it pertains to the Ukraine war, beyond sort of NATO allies stepping up in terms of their defense spending.
What else needs to be done for Europe to achieve that independence?
SANGER: Well, if you are simply stepping up your NATO defense spending which certainly the Europeans have been too slow to do, and President Trump
has been right about this. So it was President Biden, President Obama before him. They've all argued that Europe needed to spend more. I think
the Europeans are now paying the price for delaying that and assuming the United States was always there for their defense.
But the phrase independence is more than just we're going to spend more. It suggests that they cannot rely on the United States to step in and be their
defender if President Putin or another power, but Russia is the one we're worried about the most, tried to pick off a small NATO member, Lithuania,
Latvia, Estonia. And that they need basically an independent European force, which is essentially NATO minus the United States and a few other
countries.
Now, implicit in that is that the British and French nuclear arsenals would provide a nuclear umbrella for the rest of Europe and certainly for
Germany. Or that at some point, Germany might need its own independent nuclear force, something we have always wanted to avoid since the end of
World War II.
ASHER: Just in terms of this -- I mean, obviously, you bring up a good point about the sort of Europeans' understanding that there does need to be
that much more independence from the United States, does that need to be a permanent shift or a shift that lasts just as long as President Trump is in
power?
SANGER: Well, they don't know. I mean, supposing President Trump was in power and he was followed by J.D. Vance, the Vice President, who has
expressed more skepticism than anyone about the U.S. support for Ukraine.
I think the fundamental crisis that the Europeans are facing today is that they need to judge whether or not they can rely on the United States as a
centerpiece of their defense in NATO. And that has been the case for 75 years. So it doesn't mean there haven't been strains before. Certainly,
there have. There have been doubts about this.
But never before that I can recall has there been a moment where the Europeans have believed that the United States was weakening NATO from
within. And that's their concern now. Not that the president would leave NATO, which he threatened in the first term, but instead that he would
hollow it out. Because they would feel that they could not trust that the United States would be there to defend them. That's their central urgent
problem.
ASHER: And that is something that, of course, President Macron is no doubt going to bring up in the meeting that he's having with Donald Trump right
now.
Just in terms of the Christian Democrats, you know, the sweeping to power, and Friedrich Merz becoming the next chancellor, likely becoming the next
chancellor of Germany, what does it say about the trend we're seeing with right wing populist governments coming to power in Europe. What does that
tell you about this new political order we're experiencing right now?
[12:40:15]
SANGER: Well, the obvious point is that the big issues here in Germany were the economy and immigration. Sounds a lot like what we saw in the United
States and that we've seen elsewhere.
Certainly the AFD, the far right group, did better than it's ever done before. But it got, at the end of the day 20, 21 percent of the vote which
means that 80 percent of Germans were not willing to go pull the lever for the AFD.
Now, the big question is, can Merz form a stable government and maintain what they've called the firewall, keeping the far-right groups out of the
government? And, of course, that's exactly what Vice President Vance was arguing against in his speech a week ago at the Munich Security Conference.
He said there's no room for firewalls.
ASHER: I just brought up President Trump meeting with President Macron of France. President Macron just arrived to the White House about 10 minutes
or so ago. He's trying to convince Donald Trump to drive a much harder bargain with Vladimir Putin and not simply cave in, not simply sort of give
in -- give up multiple concessions to Vladimir Putin.
No one, at this point, is even sure whether Vladimir Putin is even serious about a ceasefire. Just in terms --
SANGER: That's right.
ASHER: -- of Macron's relationship with President Trump, obviously, he's known him for about eight years now. I mean, he was in office when Trump
was in office the first time around. He understands how to sort of talk to Donald Trump, how to appeal to him.
Macron is a smooth politician as well. What does he need to say to get through to President Trump, do you think, in this meeting?
SANGER: Well, my guess is, and this is pure guesswork, that his argument is, you need leverage in these negotiations because Russia, obviously,
occupies 20 percent of Ukraine. And it's not clear, as you point out, that Putin is ready to make a deal.
So, if that's the case, I think he's going to argue that the United States is much stronger in a unified position with Ukraine and with Europe.
And the key to this is not just the territory. I mean, as we said before, we suspect the Russians will probably end up at least in a ceasefire with
what they've got now or what they have on the day of the ceasefire.
The key to this is the security guarantees that make sure that Russia doesn't use the time of a ceasefire to regroup and attack again. And it's
on that topic that President Trump, Secretary of State Rubio have been silent about what that would look like, whether the U.S. would participate.
Macron, of course, had this idea of sending in French and British troops. He then backed away a little bit from that. So that's the core of what
they've got to get to.
ASHER: Right. David Sanger, live for us there. Thank you so much.
All right. Still to come here on ONE WORLD, a dramatic escalation in Israel's military operation in the West Bank. We explain what's happening
for the first time in more than two decades. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:45:07]
ASHER: All right. For the first time in more than two decades, Israel has deployed tanks in the occupied West Bank. You're looking at images obtained
by CNN from Jenin on Sunday, one of three areas where some 40,000 people have been forced out of the camps that were their home.
Israel says they will not be allowed back, which Palestinian authorities have condemned as an escalation of Israeli aggression. Israel says it's
working to stop a resurgence of terrorism.
The Palestinian Prisoner Society says there has been a spike in arrests in the West Bank with at least 365 Palestinians detained since the start of
Israel's latest operation.
Jeremy Diamond has more from Jerusalem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: For the first time in more than two decades, the Israeli military deploying tanks into the occupied
West Bank. This video taken from Jenin in the West Bank shows several of those tanks that entered that refugee camp, which has been the focus of a
major Israeli military operation over the course of the last month and a half.
But now, the Israeli military is further expanding those military operations in the West Bank, which have already resulted in the
displacements of some 40,000 Palestinians, not only from Jenin refugee camp, but also from Tulkarm and Nur Shams.
The expansion of Israeli military activity in the West Bank comes following those three bombs that exploded on buses in the suburbs of Tel Aviv. While
no one was aboard those buses, they were parked at depots in the suburbs of Tel Aviv. It certainly jolted the Israeli public, taking them back to the
bus bombings of the second intifada and prompting calls including from the Israeli prime minister for an expansion of military operations in the West
Bank.
And now, Israel Katz, the defense minister of Israel, saying that Israeli troops should be preparing for a, quote, prolonged presence in those
Palestinian refugee camps for the coming year, and saying that those 40,000 Palestinians who have been displaced from those very same areas will not be
allowed to return until the conclusion of those military operations.
We know, of course, that the Israeli military says they are going after Palestinian militants in these three refugee camps and the surrounding
area. But already, we know that at least 27 people have been killed in Jenin, 70 across the West Bank, many of whom are not militants, but rather
civilians. As all of this is happening, still questions over whether or not the ceasefire in Gaza will be extended.
Israel has been delaying the release of some 620 prisoners who were set to be released on Saturday following the last release of living hostages from
Gaza. Four bodies of hostages are scheduled to be released on Thursday.
But Hamas, for now, says that it will not engage in negotiations over the second phase, nor release those bodies until Israel releases those 620
prisoners, calling it a violation of the deal so far.
We know that Steve Witkoff, the U.S. special envoy for the Middle East, he is set to arrive in Israel on Wednesday and travel throughout the region to
see whether or not a deal can be reached to extend phase one and get into phase two of this fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: And we'll be right back with much more after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:50:06]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: After nearly a decade, Rihanna confirms her ninth studio album is on the way. The pop icon told Harper's Bazaar magazine, I just cracked the
code on what I really want to do for my next body of work. Really feeling good about this.
CNN's entertainment reporter Lisa Respers France joins me live now with more. And the quote that I thought was really important, because I'm
obviously excited for Rihanna's new music as well. She says, it has to matter. I have to show them that this was worth the wait. I can't put out
anything mediocre after waiting eight years. Hey, you might as well wait some more. Lisa, walk us through it.
LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Yes. I mean, here's the thing. I love Rihanna, but she needs to stop playing in our faces about
this new music. Seriously, because it's been since 2016.
ASHER: A tease.
FRANCE: A tease, right? But as she says, she's feeling really good about it, but she's been saying that. And it's like, sis, come with the new music
already. Every time people talk about Rihanna or talk to Rihanna, we want to know where the new music is. And she says it's coming. We have to trust
her because the thing about Rihanna is Rihanna is going to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it.
She said she's very excited about it, but also, she says it's going to be completely unexpected. There's no genre. And as you said, she said if we
had to wait this long, Zain, might as well be good. She doesn't want to be mediocre, right?
ASHER: Yes, yes. I mean our expectations are now literally through the roof.
FRANCE: Yes.
ASHER: What was interesting about this article is that we got a little bit of a glimpse into her personal and her private life with ASAP. I mean I
literally know nothing about their relationship or their union or, you know, how he is as a dad and that kind of thing. And she really let us in
this article, didn't she?
FRANCE: She absolutely did. And the timing couldn't be more perfect, given the fact that we just recently saw him being found not guilty on some
charges. And immediately, as soon as that happened, he ran and dove literally into Rihanna's lap.
And so people loved them together as a couple. They, of course, are parents of two young children. And we learned from this article that their
youngest, Riot, was actually named by Pharrell. He and Pharrell, ASAP Rocky and Pharrell have a song called "Riot."
And according to Rihanna, they thought that their youngest child was going to be, and I should say not they, but Pharrell thought that their youngest
child was going to be a girl. And so he picked the name Riot for them. And so their son's name is Riot Rose.
Now their older son, who's two and a half I believe, is named RZA and a couple years ago I interviewed RZA from Wu-Tang Clan, and he just could not
stop talking about how just honored he was that they named their son after him, even though it's not a part of -- you know, he's not a part of their
family at all. So he said it was such a joy to be able to have, you know, someone carrying on his name who's not even a part of his legacy.
As he told me, RZA is not a name, it's a title. So, you know, I love the fact that with this Harper's Bazaar article, we really get to get some
insight into Rihanna, not just as a businesswoman and as a musician, but also as a mom and as a long-term partner to ASAP Rocky. I mean, she rides
for that man like you would not believe. She supports him in ways.
[12:55:15]
ASHER: Ride or die.
FRANCE: Yes, ride or die. Absolutely. They love each other and it's so great to see.
ASHER: Yes. And it sounds like he's a really wonderful dad as well.
FRANCE: Yes.
ASHER: All right. Lisa, thank you so much.
FRANCE: Thank you.
ASHER: Legendary singer, Roberta Flack, has passed away today at her home surrounded by her family and this is according to our publicist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Of course, she was best known for ballads like this, "Killing Me Softly With His Song" and "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" as well was
another one. Her success led to 14 Grammy nominations and five wins, including a Lifetime Achievement Award as well.
Three years ago, she revealed she was diagnosed with ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease. Artist, Questlove, paid tribute to Flack captioning a photo of her
with the words, Rest in melody. Roberta Flack was 88 years old.
All right. That does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. I'm Zain Asher. Appreciate you watching. "AMANPOUR" is up next. You're watching CNN.
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[13:00:00]
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