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One World with Zain Asher
Any Moment: Trump To Welcome E.U. Leaders To The White House; Zelenskyy: Russia Hit Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia And Sumy Monday; European Leaders Arrive At White House; Soon: Trump To Welcome Zelenskyy To The White House; Aired 12-1p ET
Aired August 18, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:30:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Coming to you live from New York, I'm Zain Asher.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. You are watching the second hour of "One World."
Well, the U.S. president says he knows exactly what he's doing as he prepares to host a meeting that could decide not only Ukraine's fate, but
the future of European security as well.
ASHER: That's right. At any moment now, European leaders and the head of NATO will arrive at the White House and later join Volodymyr Zelenskyy for
talks with President Donald Trump. Their goal to ensure that Kyiv has a real voice in any peace deal. But the U.S. president says it's up to
Ukraine to end the conflict that Russia began.
GOLODRYGA: And after his Friday summit in Alaska with the Russian president, he is now echoing some of the Kremlin's talking points. In a
social media post on Sunday, Trump said Kyiv must agree to some of Moscow's demands, including giving up Crimea and never joining NATO if it wants
peace.
(SIREN)
ASHER: President Zelenskyy says, this is why he's demanding security guarantees. He says Russia attacked three regions on Monday. Three people
lost their lives in this attack on Zaporizhzhia.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. That's in addition to seven deaths in Kharkiv. President Zelenskyy adding, the Kremlin's goal was to, in his words, humiliate
diplomatic efforts.
The head of Ukraine's military believes Russia is regrouping and is now planning a new offensive in southern Ukraine.
ASHER: CNN's Clare Sebastian is joining us live from London. We've got Ben Wedeman in Kyiv. But first, let's go to Alayna Treene who is live for us at
the White House.
So, Alayna, I think that when people sort of hear about this meeting between Zelenskyy and Trump, obviously you think back to what happened in
February. As I understand it, Zelenskyy has spoken to a lot of European leaders about how to ensure that this meeting ends very, very differently
from what we saw about six months ago.
Obviously, though, he is in a tight corner, and there is going to be a lot of pressure on him to agree to terms, perhaps, that he will consider to be
very unfair.
Walk us through how he expects to navigate this with our President Trump.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. I mean, look, it could definitely be a very tense, especially after what we saw the President post
last night, kind of previewing what his message to Zelenskyy will be, which is, you know, if you want to end this war, really, first of all, I should
say, putting the onus almost on Zelenskyy, that it could be up to him to end this war, but then saying you need to cede Crimea, of course, something
that a territory of Russia illegally annexed back in 2014, and also agree not to become a member of NATO.
But I will say, the circumstances around this meeting are very different from that February meeting that did end in a shouting match and -- and
really set relationships on a very sour note for some time.
One, we know that the President has met in person with Zelenskyy before, or after that meeting, but before today. So, you know, they saw them each
other in Rome, for example, during the Pope's funeral, but also they've had several calls, and they have been in communication far more. And we know
that the President has grown more warm toward Zelenskyy, and so he has that going from, of course.
And then also, you have seven European leaders who have been very committed in their support for Ukraine and ensuring that Zelenskyy is heard
throughout this process and has a seat at the table. And so he will have a bit of a buffer here today as well.
But I do think, you know, a -- a huge sign of how talks go is going to be when you see the two emerge from their bilateral meeting. The President is
going to be meeting with Zelenskyy, some of their aides, the European leaders, will not be in that first meeting, and so it'll be very indicative
if you watch the tone and the rhetoric, of how that mean, you know, when they come out of that, is to see whether or not things are going well, and
if they're avoiding kind of a repeat of what happened in February.
But some other quick things I want to talk about. I think the main goal, at least from the White House's perspective, is one, of course, they want to
see what Zelenskyy and also the European leaders, but mainly Zelenskyy, is willing to kind of give up here. What is he willing to concede?
Because the big goal for the President, he's said this publicly now, is he's hoping this can turn into a second meeting, a trilateral meeting with
Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Vladimir Putin, and himself, to really hash out the contours of what this peace deal could potentially look like.
And that's sort of what we heard Steve Witkoff, who was in the room on Friday in Alaska, something he said over the weekend, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: What we're trying to accomplish on Monday is get some consensus from President Zelenskyy and his team. We had
some really good, specific, granular conversation on the -- on the plane ride home with President Zelenskyy about what he would be seeking. And we
don't think that there are any obstacles in that -- in that -- in that conversation that we heard.
[12:05:18]
And so I'm hopeful that we have a productive meeting on Monday. We get to real consensus. We're able to come back to the Russians and push this peace
deal forward and get it done and stop the killing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TREENE: So really, Bianna and Zain, this could either be, you know, a meeting that does help move the ball forward and -- and really progress the
talks that we've seen happen with increasing speed in recent weeks. Or it could be something that could throw another wrench into President Donald
Trump's plans.
One other thing I think is just so important to note that I -- I didn't mention is security guarantees are expected to be a major topic, if not one
of the center points to be discussed today.
We have also heard from Witkoff that Russia, on Friday, agreed or said they were willing to accept some security guarantees. But it's even more
important to recognize that the United States is even open to becoming, you know, committed to something like that after we've heard the president in
the past argue that it should be up to European allies to handle security guarantees. That will be a big priority. And if successful, if they can get
that on the table, a big win for Zelenskyy and Ukraine.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. That was big news made by Steve Witkoff over the weekend that in their conversations with the Russian delegation, specifically
President Putin, that the Russians agreed to the U.S. stepping in as a backstop for security guarantees.
We haven't heard the Kremlin respond to that as of yet. Nonetheless, that is noteworthy. No doubt.
Alayna Treene, thank you so much.
And let's go to Ben Wedeman, who is in Ukraine. And, Ben, this is a meeting that President Zelenskyy, while coming to with the support and backing of
other European allies, will be going into the Oval Office solo for a bilateral meeting again with President Trump. And then afterwards, it
appears that the president will be meeting with multiple European leaders as well.
So going into this meeting, the Ukrainians had been hoping that the president would be able to negotiate some sort of ceasefire with President
Putin. That's something the president said that he was going for as well. And that is not how that meeting on Friday ended up.
The president then reversed in course in saying that the best way to end this war is to a deal right away. Just talk about some of the -- the
strategies that President Zelenskyy is walking into this meeting with and also some of the challenges he's facing.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, the real challenges, Bianna, Zain, are that this -- there was so much anticipation
in the lead-up to the Alaska Summit that after so much lobbying by European leaders on behalf of Ukraine, that, A, there would not be a deal reached
behind closed doors between Trump and Putin.
And B, that there would be some sort of agreement from Putin for a ceasefire. So, that didn't happen. There was disappointment. There was a
feeling that suddenly the onus was back on Ukraine for ending this war.
And in fact, what we saw on Truth Social overnight, President Trump saying that President Zelenskyy can end this war almost immediately if he wants,
even though, of course, it was Russia that invaded Ukraine and not the other way around.
So, what we saw is that President Zelenskyy sort of responded in his own way on social media, saying that Russia should not be rewarded for its
participation in this war. The war must be ended. And it is Moscow that must hear the word stop.
So already, I think President Trump and President Zelenskyy are sort of sending out messages about what their positions will be. But, of course,
after that shocking February 28th meeting and the Oval Office between Zelenskyy and Trump, I think Zelenskyy is going to be walking, treading
very carefully.
Perhaps, he won't be wearing the same sort of outfit he did on that day when he was criticized for not wearing a suit.
Now, today, we were at a funeral in Kyiv for a 39-year-old artist turned soldier who was killed earlier this month on the Eastern Front in an area
where, of course, President Putin still wants to gain more territory.
And I spoke with one of the comrades of this fallen soldier who told me that if Ukraine stops fighting, there is no more Ukraine. If Russia stops
fighting, that means there's no more war.
Bianna, Zain.
ASHER: Ben Wedeman live for us there. Thank you so much.
Clare Sebastian, let me bring you in, because you and I were speaking in the last hour, really about this idea of the Donbas region and that being a
key aspect in all of this. Because President Zelenskyy does obviously not want to give up any territory, not any part of Eastern Ukraine in -- in
exchange for peace.
[12:10:22]
Just walk us through why the Donbas region is such a prize for Vladimir Putin.
CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. To do that then, I think we have to go back a little bit in -- in recent history. And if you look at this
map right now, this is where we stand right now in this war. The red section is controlled by Russia. The yellow parts are what Ukraine has
managed to recapture militarily since the start of the full-scale invasion in 2022.
But if you look even closer here, you can see that we have Crimea down in the south shaded with those stripes and then this area of the Donbas with
the same. Now, Crimea, of course, was annexed illegally by Russia in 2014. It staged a sham referendum there.
And as -- as that was happening, fighting was breaking out also up in the Donbas region. And this is where this becomes really important because, of
course, this was something that Russia denied direct involvement, and this was Russian back separatists fighting for control against Ukrainian forces.
And when they signed a peace deal, especially the second one they signed in 2015 Minsk II, it essentially gave, and we can look closer at these
regions, it gave this section here a special status. The Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic.
Now, of course, Minsk II completely went out the window when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, because three days before that, it had recognized these
two sort of self-styled people's republics as independent states, then it launched this war partly on the pretext of protecting the Russians as they
put it and Russian speaking people in those region.
They are actually, you know, pretty Russian as it goes. They have been traditionally sort of Russian speaking and, of course, they're on the
Russian border. But that was part of the pretext part of what we hear Putin talk about the root causes of this conflict.
So, if we go to this map that shows the outlines of these -- these regions because Russia, of course, occupies not only done Donetsk and Luhansk up
here, but also Kherson and Zaporizhzhia down here.
This is where it gets tricky because you can see there's a section here, especially within Donetsk that Russia doesn't occupy yet. And according to
what we're hearing from Trump having spoken to his European allies after the Alaska summit, Russia is looking for full control of these regions,
including the part that Ukraine still occupies, which if we move in closer, we can see will include key fortress towns like Kramatorsk up here. Ukraine
would simply have to walk away with them. So, essentially, that's a non- starter.
But if we go back to the map, you can see while they're looking for full control of these regions, they may be willing to accept just freezing the
line of contact here and taking control of the part that they occupy it.
Now, look, For Zelenskyy, ceding any -- any territory permanently is a non- starter and especially territory that he still controls. But perhaps freezing the line of contact, perhaps accepting a sort of temporary de
facto Russian control of these occupied regions, that potentially maybe a starting point,
Zain and Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Claire Sebastian, thank you so much.
Now, let's go to Moscow and CNN's Fred Pleitgen. Fred, no doubt that Friday summit in Alaska was viewed as a victory. And a rather positive meeting for
President Putin and as it's been portrayed over the weekend.
It was also interesting to hear President Trump come out of that meeting calling Putin's demands reasonable and arguing that Ukraine will have to
give up some territory to bring this war to an end.
What will the Kremlin be paying attention to coming out of today's meeting? Just talk about their perspective and what you're seeing on Russian
television there.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, I think if the Russians think that they were able to convey their points to
President Trump and that those were taken in by President Trump as well, I think right now what the Russians will be looking for when President
Zelenskyy of Ukraine is there at the White House is, first of all, whether it blows up like last time.
And whether or not Zelenskyy would be willing to concede to some of the points that the Russians have been making, because the Russians really feel
that they are, at this point in time, pretty much on the same page as President Trump as far as the conflict in Ukraine is concerned.
It's been quite interesting, over the past couple of hours, not just in Russian media where, of course, the summit was portrayed as a big success
for Vladimir Putin and then also Vladimir Putin being able to impress on the American president, the view of all of this from the Russian
perspective as well, Bianna, but also the Russians taking over some of the points that President Trump has been making on social media.
If you look for instance at Truth Social that post that President Trump did where he said that President Zelenskyy of Ukraine will have to give up and
--
GOLODRYGA: I'm going to interrupt you here now as we are seeing -- I am so sorry, Fred. We're just going to interrupt you as we are seeing European
leaders arrive now individually for their meetings at the White House.
First up is Mark Rutte, the Secretary General of NATO there. He and the president, we should note, to have a rather good rapport.
ASHER: Right. Right.
GOLODRYGA: And so the president will be welcoming all of these leaders. They will be meeting beforehand. And then obviously in about an hour's time
is when that bilateral meeting between President Zelenskyy and President Trump will take place
[12:15:09]
ASHER: Right. And we are expecting a number of European leaders to also arrive as well. We are literally just waiting for them. We're expecting
Ursula von der Leyen. We're expecting Keir Starmer. We're expecting President Macron of France, Giorgia Meloni of Italy.
A number of these leaders, including Giorgia Meloni, have a good relationship with the U.S. president. And so, we're expecting that to
factor in as well.
So, Fred, I believe you and Bianna were really speaking about what the Kremlin is going to be looking for as the meeting takes place. Can you just
sort of continue with your thought there? And I'll ask you another question on the back of that.
PLEITGEN: Well, I think -- yes. I think one of the things that the Russians will be looking for is whether or not the Ukrainians will completely rule
out any sort of territorial concessions. President Zelenskyy of Ukraine, of course, has been making the point that he would need to get constitutional
authority. That essentially Ukraine's constitution would have to be changed if the Ukrainians were to cede any territory.
Obviously, that's something that's not very easy to do. At the same time, the Russians want to see if this diplomatic process is going to move
forward. And from the Russian perspective, it's been very interesting to see the messaging coming out of the Kremlin over the past couple of days.
It took Vladimir Putin about a day to get back here in Moscow. He wasn't here until Saturday. And he immediately was pictured in the Kremlin with
some of his top officials, including Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister, the defense minister as well, and many others, where he informed them about
the results of the summit that took place.
And there, he once again, essentially, praised President Trump, saying that he was able to, in a very calm manner, explain the Russian position. So,
clearly, the Russians feel that things move forward as far as those talks that he had with President Trump are concerned, as we note that we're
seeing Ursula von der Leyen get out of her vehicle right now being greeted at the White House.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Fred, you have the same return that we do. So, you're just filling our --
PLEITGEN: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: -- viewers up to speed there with who's just arrived, the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen following Mark Rutte,
the Secretary General of NATO. We're expecting a number of other European leaders in the coming minutes. So apologies for the interruption.
ASHER: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: But -- but, Fred Pleitgen, I know you'll be watching this closely for Moscow as well. Thank you.
ASHER: Thank you, Fred.
All right. Let's bring in the CNN analyst Cedric Leighton, joining us live now from Washington, D.C.
So, Cedric, we are probably going to have to interrupt you every few minutes because we are expecting a number of European leaders to arrive any
moment now. They will all just meeting Zelenskyy at the Ukrainian embassy in D.C., just a few minutes away from here. And they all just left at
exactly around noon and they're pulling up one by one.
I want to talk to you a bit more about what the European leaders are trying to get out of this meeting. And, obviously, President Zelenskyy and Trump
are going to have their meeting separately and then later on the European leaders are going to be joining.
One of the main concerns here for Europe is really this idea that they want sort of NATO-style security guarantees, security assurances, even if
Ukraine isn't actually ever going to become a member of NATO.
They also want to make sure that Ukraine does not end up ceding territory. They want peace without Ukraine having to give up its own sovereignty.
I mean, there's a whole list, there's a laundry list of demands that Europe needs, especially this idea that after the summit we saw on Friday with
Putin and Trump meeting, Europe does not want to be sidelined. They don't want to be left out of negotiations here.
Just walk us through how all of this is going to play out today, especially because President Trump does seem to be, based on the social media posts
we've seen, President Trump does sort of seem to be digging in -- in his heels about how he wants this war to end.
CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's right, Zain. It's going to be very interesting to see if or how, if it does change, how that
changes in terms of President Trump's attitude toward all of this.
You know, clearly, President Trump has been under the influence of Vladimir Putin and that meeting that they had in Alaska.
When it comes to the European leaders, though, as you pointed out, there are so many goals that they have, which basically amount to trying to make
sure that their security is taken care of. And they see their security being basically the security of Ukraine.
In other words, making sure that Ukraine maintains its sovereignty, making sure that Ukraine can actually have a -- a military force that it can feel
should it have the need to do so. So, those are the kinds of things that the Europeans want.
In essence, what they're going to try to do is they're going to try to convince Trump again of the need to make sure that there are security
guarantees for the Europeans. And that means security guarantees for the Ukrainians.
ASHER: Cedric, let me interrupt you because we're seeing the British Prime Minister Keir Starmer also arriving at the White House. He is the third or
fourth leader that we've seen so far. I'm losing track.
GOLODRYGA: Third, I think.
ASHER: Third, I think. But, you know, obviously some of these leaders -- a lot of these leaders actually have pretty good relationships with President
Trump, especially the Finnish President, for example, Alexander Stubb. He's played golf with -- with Trump.
[12:20:14]
And -- and we are looking at live pictures. OK. My -- my producer just told me we are actually looking at live pictures of the Finnish leader Alexander
Stubb, leaving the Ukrainian embassy on their way to the White House.
Talk to us also about how the various relationships. I mean, obviously, President Trump is somebody who takes personal relationships very
seriously. He has a good relationship with Giorgia Meloni, for example, of Italy, because they do see eye to eye on a number of issues politically.
How will that also factor in to these meetings?
LEIGHTON: I think it's going to be a -- have a considerable impact on these meetings, Zain. And it's -- you know, when you look at, you know, President
Trump and his predilection for personal relationships, it's very interesting to look at the ideological spectrum of all of the European
leaders involved here.
And, you know, you mentioned Giorgia Meloni of Italy. She is, you know, kindred spirit, basically, of -- of President Trump's, basically on the
right end of the political spectrum and her political party in Italy has a lot of relationships with the Republican Party here in the United States.
And then you look at Keir Starmer, a Labour prime minister from the Labour Party in Britain, a left-of-center group, but still a very good
relationship with President Trump from what we can tell.
And then you have the German Chancellor, Friedrich Merz. He is, you know, from the Christian Democratic Union, the CDU, right-of-center party. And,
you know, generally more conservative than his predecessor, Olaf Scholz, was.
But all of these people, and of course, the Finnish president who's on his way right now, they are all looking at one big thing. And that is to
maintain the security of Europe.
And regardless of their ideological perspective or their political leanings, these people are very much concerned with maintaining, in
essence, if it's not going to be a Pax Americana, it's going to have to be a Pax Europaea.
And they're looking at basically achieving some kind of European peace that will continue the type of peace that they've experienced more or less with
a few interruptions since the Second World War, and of course, the biggest interruption of being the Ukraine war. But they want to go back to that
status quo ante, if you will, that would -- that would give Europe a -- a breather from these conflicts. And that's the kind of thing that they
believe they, at least they hope they can achieve here in Washington with their meeting, not only with President Zelenskyy, which they just had, but
also, of course, with President Trump. And that's going to be the critical part of this, I believe.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Colonel Leighton, standby. Let's bring in Steven Erlanger. He is "The New York Times" chief diplomatic editor joining us live from
Berlin.
And it is notable to see just how quickly we have European leaders coming to the White House. I don't even think we've seen such a rapid response. We
have to go back to the Iraq War and the days leading up to the war to see the Europeans really responding with great urgency here. This is a very
important meeting. One could even say arguably more important than that February meeting with President Zelenskyy.
And while the rapport with President Trump may have improved between these two leaders, Steven, arguably, the stakes are even higher for President
Zelenskyy, given that Vladimir Putin is doubling down in his demands for bringing this war to an end, even from his previous meeting with Steve
Witkoff. He wasn't asking for all of Donbas, which is what he's doing right now.
In addition to what we haven't even touched on, and that is the, quote- unquote, root cause of this war. And that is really the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine as well as its independent military as a whole.
STEVEN ERLANGER, CHIEF DIPLOMATIC EDITOR, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. I think that's right. I mean, the Europeans were shaken by the Alaska Summit. I
call this an intervention. They've come to the White House to intervene. They think Donald Trump has gotten a bit drunk on Vladimir Putin's
promises. And they want to remind the President that the war could go on forever if we start doing negotiations before ceasefire.
They want to remind the president that handing over the rest of the Donetsk would open up Ukraine to a much bigger invasion and would involve handing
over a big chunk of territory Russia has not conquered, more territory, in fact, than the territory Russia has conquered since November 2022.
So, it's a big deal. And I think they want to remind the president that Ukraine security is their security.
[12:25:07]
They also want to talk about security guarantees. Trump talked vaguely about America possibly participating in a post-settlement security
guarantees for Ukraine. Witkoff talks about Article V light, which is very hard to understand, either it's Article V, in essence, or it isn't.
And they want to find out if what exactly the Americans have in mind that the Americans want to participate with troops, with boots on the ground, or
just with intelligence.
And in a way, I think the problem for Zelenskyy is, Putin has done his jiu- jitsu act, which is we came to Alaska with Trump saying, I'm going to punish Putin because he's the obstacle to my ceasefire. And we've come out
from Alaska with all this pressure again on Zelenskyy, because in a way Trump sees him now as the obstacle to the big enchilada, which is a peace
settlement.
GOLODRYGA: Steven, we are --
So, the stakes are quite high --
GOLODRYGA: We are watching Giorgia Meloni now --
ERLANGER: Yes. Got it.
GOLODRYGA: -- arrive at -- the Prime Minister of Italy arrive now at the White House. The woman who is greeting her incidentally, that is Monica
Crowley. She is the Chief of Protocol at the White House, in case anyone was interested in knowing who -- who this was greeting all of these
dignitaries arriving, really on schedule though.
I mean, there are times when we've been way off the official schedule and what actually transpires. This is almost to the minute now as we're
expecting more. I think we have three more European leaders, I believe. Germany.
ASHER: I have lost count.
GOLODRYGA: Germany, France.
ASHER: Germany, Friedrich Merz.
ERLANGER: Yes, that's right.
GOLODRYGA: And --
ASHER: Macron.
GOLODRYGA: And Macron, and I think --
ASHER: Oh, and Stubb, Stubb, right. Stubb, the Finnish leader. Alexander Stubb is on his way.
GOLODRYGA: All right. European geography there. Steven, finish your point.
ERLANGER: It's a bit like waiting for the Academy Awards. I said, it's a bit like waiting for the Academy Awards, what star is going to come out
next.
You know, I mean, my point --
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Different carpet.
ERLANGER: -- is simply that the security guarantees may be used as leverage almost as blackmail on Zelenskyy to say, well, if you give up this
territory, then you'll be fine.
But I think for Zelenskyy that's a deal he cannot make. He couldn't survive it politically. It's a deal the Europeans don't want to make either,
because they really do want to protect the principle post-war that borders of sovereign nations cannot be changed by force. So, the stakes really are
quite high here.
ASHER: Steven, stand by. I want to go back to Cedric Leighton, who's our military analyst.
So, one of the issues that the European leaders have, Cedric, is this idea that there shouldn't be any active bombardment as peace negotiations --
peace negotiations take place. And we've seen this strategy by Russia time and time again, that even when there is the possibility of negotiating a
peace deal, we see the Russians continue to bomb Ukraine overnight. We've seen that obviously last night as well.
My question for you is if peace talks fail, how much greater do you think the fallout is going to be? The fallout militarily will be on both sides,
both for Ukraine and Russia.
LEIGHTON: Zain, it could be considerable. Now, we have to also remember as the Russians are attacking Ukrainian cities, the Ukrainians are also
attacking Russian installations, such as oil refineries, factories, and in some cases, military installations as well.
So, there is a lot of back and forth going on between the two sides. The preponderance of the firepower appears to be on the Russian side in terms
of the volume of artillery and the volume of drones that -- that are being flown against Ukrainian targets.
But the Ukrainians are very precise in the types of targets that they're hitting. And they are having an impact on the Russian economy, especially
on the oil industry. And that is something that has to be taken into account as these developments unfold.
But if the ceasefire -- you know, if there is no ceasefire or if a ceasefire that is implemented doesn't hold, we can expect an
intensification of these attacks, Zain. And I believe that what we would also see is perhaps other efforts to try to move forward by both sides, the
Russians and the Ukrainians, try to move forward in terms of capturing additional territory, or in some cases, recapturing that territory.
So, those would be the kinds of things that we would expect in essence, at least for a short term, an intensification of the fighting, both in the air
and on the ground is what I would expect.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And, Cedric, if you could just explain to our viewers the - - the fact that it is now all of Donbas that Russia is asking for aside from just the principle of not giving up territory that doesn't belong to
them, and a lot of this territory is still -- is still dominated and controlled by Ukraine.
[12:30:08]
There's also a strategic and military rationale for Ukraine to continue to hold on to this territory, because that is some of the most defensive lines
that we have seen thus far on the frontlines there.
And if Ukraine were to give up this territory, even if it ends in a ceasefire or the stop of war completely, the fact that Russia could then
resume the vulnerability that that puts Ukraine in if they cede this land. Just talk about that.
LEIGHTON: Yes, Bianna. There -- there's one big factor here, and these are these fortress towns basically starting with Slovyansk and going down
through Kramatorsk and several other towns in the Donbas, specifically in the Donetsk region of Eastern Ukraine. And these areas are basically very
defensible areas from a military standpoint.
So, what the Ukrainians have done is ever since they recaptured these cities in 2014 from the Russians and the Russian separatist, pro-Russian
separatist forces, they have fortified these areas in an effort to make sure that the territory stays as Ukrainian as it possibly can.
They've been very successful at this. And we have to keep in mind that in spite of Russia's best efforts from February of 2022 to the present day,
they have been unable to capture these four towns.
The fact that those are still in Ukrainian hands shows the efficacy of a large portion of the Ukrainian defensive effort, but it also shows that the
Ukrainians and the Russians are very well aware that they need to maintain these particular areas.
The Ukrainians need to maintain these particular towns as part of their defensive line. If they lose those that -- those towns, what will happen is
that it'll give the Russians a chance to then go into other areas of Ukraine in the center, basically through the Zaporizhzhia areas and through
Dnipropetrovsk and some of these other areas. And that, of course, would be a potential disaster.
ASHER: And, Cedric, we're just waiting to see who is arriving next at the White House. All right. It is the Finnish leader, Alexander Stubb as well.
He also has a very cordial relationship with the U.S. president. They have played golf in the past.
And, Steven, I want to bring you in just to talk about this next point, because obviously for Zelenskyy, there's going to be a period where despite
the fact that all of these European leaders are arriving in this massive show of solidarity and the show of force and support, the fact is there is
a point at which he's going to have to talk to President Trump alone. And he is going to be backed into a corner. There are going to be essentially
unfair demands placed on him. He is under a lot of pressure here.
How does he navigate that? I mean, obviously, he's going to have to explain his case why ceding territory is not a good idea, why he cannot do that,
even sort of legally and politically, that is very difficult for Ukraine.
But how does he navigate that without basically, you know, drawing the anger and the ire of -- of President Trump like what we saw in February?
ERLANGER: Well, I think he's learned some lessons. And he's been briefed, of course. I'm sure he'll start by flattering Mr. Trump and thanking him
for his efforts, saying he wants peace, and it's really Putin who is the obstacle to peace.
And I think he -- he will argue to President Trump, which he sometimes said, we are prepared, Ukraine, to discuss territory. There's no question.
We are prepared to do a deal to end the war, but we need to do it after a ceasefire.
We cannot discuss territory while the bombs are flying and while the Russians still continue to push ahead as best they can. I think that's his
best argument to Trump.
What changed things in Alaska was when Putin said, first he said, give me all of the Donbas before ceasefire, and that wasn't going very well. So
then Putin changed and said, well, let's have a whole peace treaty. Let's get it done. But in that peace treaty, I will need Ukraine to give me the
rest of the Donbas.
So, this is what Zelenskyy has to argue about, that he cannot negotiate territory under fire, but he is prepared to have a serious conversation
with President Putin and President Trump about a solution that includes Ukraine losing territory effectively for many years to come, though not
legally, in return for these security guarantees that we keep talking about.
[12:35:08]
And Cedric, we're just hearing from President Zelenskyy ahead of this meeting at the White House, and here's what he posted on X. He said, "Our
main goal is a reliable and lasting peace for Ukraine and for the whole of Europe. It is important that the momentum of all of our meetings lead to
precisely this result. We understand that we shouldn't expect Putin to voluntarily abandon aggression and new attempts at conquest. That is why
pressure must work, and it must be joint pressure from the United States and Europe, and from everyone in the world who respects the right to life
and international order.
We must stop the killings. And I thank our partners who are working toward this and ultimately toward a reliable and dignified peace. Together with
the leaders of Finland, the United Kingdom, Italy, the European Commission, and the NATO Secretary General, we coordinated our positions ahead of the
meeting with President Trump. Ukraine is ready for a real truce. And for establishing a new security architecture, we need peace."
And, Cedric, what stands out to me here is his point of saying, "we need a reliable peace." And earlier, we heard from President Trump saying that in
order to reach a deal, Ukraine must give up its rights to Crimea and also joining NATO in the future.
It was this very president during his first term that didn't recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea. What kind of guarantees can Ukraine then
count on if it seems that he is now?
LEIGHTON: Yes. This -- this is going to be very interesting because those things, Bianna, are really diametrically opposed to each other. So, when
you look at President Zelenskyy's call for a just and in -- in essence verifiable peace, that is something that would require at the very least
some kind of mechanism to prevent the Russian forces from reinvading any part of Ukraine.
So, there has to be some kind of a mechanism, some kind of demilitarized zone or something like that that is set up between the two sides. As far as
Crimea is concerned, yes, we -- we do definitely see some contradictory elements, you know, in terms of Trump's position on -- on Ukraine and --
and on Crimea specifically.
When you look at what has happened with Crimea, the -- there are -- is, of course, a movement within Ukraine and in Crimea itself that talks about the
fact that in a legal sense, Crimea is part of Ukraine. Then the de facto sense is that, of course, the Russians have occupied that territory in
spite of agreements not to do so since 2014.
And even though the Ukrainians have mounted significant efforts to destroy a large portion of the Russian military presence on Crimea, the Crimea,
that peninsula still is under Russian control.
So, that's going to be a -- a critical component. One thing that would have to happen is there have to be some kind of demilitarization, at least in
part of Crimea, in order to ensure the safety of vessels transiting the Black Sea to get to Odessa that Ukrainian port and other -- of course,
other Ukrainian ports so that they can maintain a -- an economic lifeline, not only for themselves but really for the food supply of the rest of the
world. So, that's going to be a significant thing as well.
So, if we have somebody in the room with President Trump in addition to President Zelenskyy who can say, look the Ukrainians need to have in
essence a safe passage for the Black Sea, they need to have several other guarantees to include the ability to maintain their defensive positions in
the Western Donetsk region.
That would, I think, be critical to at least trying to get to a place where the Ukrainians would feel more comfortable with the kind of peace
settlement that could potentially come out of this.
But I think that what we're going to see instead of a peace settlement that's a permanent one, we might see something that is more akin to what we
-- we see in Korea after the Korean War and that would be in essence an armistice as -- as Steve mentioned earlier.
ASHER: Steve, let me bring you back in because in contrast to what President Zelenskyy just tweeted, when you think about what President Trump
posted on social media, his whole framework was this idea that Ukraine could end the war if it wanted to, essentially putting the onus on the
victim. That tells you where President Trump's head is at in terms of going into this meeting and his whole strategy and approach.
What does President Trump, somebody who promised to end the Ukraine war pretty much on day one as soon as he entered the Oval Office earlier this
year, what does he risk if this entire strategy, this negotiation does not work out?
ERLANGER: Well, I think he does risk embarrassment. I mean, he thought he'd end Gaza quite quickly too. The world is more complicated. And part of the
problem I think for Trump is he really does see this as a real estate deal. If he does give up some real estate, then you'll get this, but there's so
much more at stake involved in patriotism and Russian civilization --
[12:40:11]
ASHER: Steven, I have to -- Steven, I do have to interrupt you because -- Steven, I do have to interrupt you because we are looking at Friedrich Merz
arriving, the German Chancellor arriving. He only got this position in May. I believe on the 6th of May this year. So, he's only been in the job just a
few months. That's when he took over from Olaf Scholz.
But they do again see eye-to-eye in some areas politically between the German chancellor and President Trump.
I'm sorry, Steven, for interrupting you. Just -- just walk us through the rest of your point there.
ERLANGER: No. It's -- I mean, that makes perfect sense. And I think Merz is important because Merz is a conservative. And yet, he has been very, very
strong in getting more money for the military from Germany being very supportive for Ukraine because the Germans understands the security of
Ukraine is also their security. I think that's part of what the Europeans really are pushing.
The point I was trying to make about Trump is it's a lot more complicated than just trading territory. What you're talking about really is what it is
to be a nation if you're Ukraine or in Mr. Putin's eyes, what is it to restore the Russian Empire?
I mean, if as Putin thinks the collapse of the Soviet Union was the great geopolitical catastrophe of the last century, and he's a revisionist, and
he wants Ukraine to be more of a vassal state, more like Belarus, and not like Poland. He wants it back under Russian influence and culture. He wants
it part of Russkiy Mir, part of the Russian world. And the Ukrainians don't want it.
So, part of what I think President Trump still doesn't quite understand is that Putin, by his invasion since 2014 has created a Ukrainian nation, a
real patriotism that is going to keep fighting no matter what President Trump thinks.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. It was a bit dystopian to hear from President Putin on Friday talk about the love and the common bond shared between Ukraine and
Russia as Russia continues to unleash its deadly war and bombardment against Ukraine.
We are going to take a quick break as we are now, I believe, just down to two world leaders who have yet to arrive, the president of France. And
actually that may be it. That's it, Macron.
ASHER: That's it. I think it's just -- we're waiting for macron, the last one.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Once he makes it in, it'll all just be an anticipation of President Zelenskyy's arrival. We're going to take a quick break and come
back to this live coverage at the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:45:33]
ASHER: All right. We've just been having a lot of European leaders, watching a lot of European leaders arrive at the White House in preparation
for this joint meeting between Zelenskyy and Trump. You've got a lot of European leaders having arrived already. We are still waiting for the
French president. I believe he is the last European leader to arrive.
I want to go straight now to Alayna Treene at the White House for us.
Alayna, you and I were speaking earlier about how all of this harkens back to the meeting we saw in February. But just talk to us about the strength
of the relationship between Trump and a lot of the European leaders that we are seeing arrive here, namely, for example, Giorgia Meloni, Friedrich
Merz, for example, Alexander Stubb. Three leaders who do seem to have a strong relationship with President Trump.
How will they be able to sway him that this idea of ceding territory to Russia who started this war is not a good one?
TREENE: I think it's also important to note, Zain and Bianna, that a lot of these European leaders are new European leaders, not the same people that
he had worked with previously in his first term.
I mean, of course, you know, Emmanuel Macron is one of them and -- and some of the others on here, but a lot of them have really worked over the last
several months to strengthen their relationships with President Donald Trump. And it has, it seems paid off.
I mean, for example, we recently saw President Donald Trump go to Scotland where he, you know, had a bilateral meetings and a joint press conference
with the -- the Prime Minister of the U.K., Keir Starmer.
And you could see there how much the President liked Starmer. And he has had many conversations with him since. He's also someone who, you know,
struck the first trade deal with the United States. That's just one example.
Meloni, of course, I think is a great example as well. She has a very good relationship with Donald Trump. We kind of saw that on display. Even before
he retook office when he was in France, for example, for the reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral, that's just one example.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Alayna, we're just -- I know you don't have return here. We're just seeing the last of the European delegation arrive here
before President Zelenskyy himself. There you see French President Emmanuel Macron arriving at the White House.
So, all of the other leaders that are there sort of back up support for President Zelenskyy as he approaches in just, I believe, 15, 20 minutes
time, his second meeting since President Trump's second term here at the White House. Go on with your point, though. Apologies for interrupting you.
TREENE: No, it's OK. I'm glad we got that shot of the French president.
Look, I mean, a lot of these leaders, like you mentioned, I think it's so important to know how much work they've put in to ensuring he's -- they've
strengthened relationships with the president because this isn't really what we saw a lot of during the president's first term.
And we know that these meetings, as we saw in February with Zelenskyy, can go wayward very quickly if -- if the relationship is not solved.
So, I think the hope really is to have them there as almost a buffer for Zelenskyy. We know that they have been working very closely in trying to
ensure that Zelenskyy has a seat at the table. Europeans, of course, want to make sure that they are involved in these conversations, too. And so
that will be a lot of some of the context, I think, that will be playing behind the scenes.
Now, of course, I think some key things that we're looking at are whether or not they will end up being on the same page as President Donald Trump,
especially on one key point, which is the fact we saw the president over the weekend argue that, you know what, we're not going to move forward with
the ceasefire. We're going to go straight to a peace deal, something I think a lot of, you know, people in Europe and Ukraine were a bit uneasy
by. So, that's one thing as well, I think, to pay attention to.
Of course, we're waiting now to see Zelenskyy himself arrive and he will first meet with Donald Trump one-on-one and then he'll go invite the other
European leaders in as well to kind of talk more broadly.
But I think watch very carefully, I brought this point earlier, watch very carefully for some of the tone and rhetoric after we see Zelenskyy and
Trump together. I think they'll give you a lot of insight into how potentially these negotiations are going to go today.
And, of course, one of the main goals we have heard from President Donald Trump and a lot of people in his administration is they are hoping that
this can really kick off the process to moving toward a peace deal, continue the momentum we've seen following that summit in Alaska with
Vladimir Putin and see if they can also get a trilateral meeting between Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. All of that very much
unclear at this point, but we'll have to see how these talks go.
[12:50:16]
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Made all the more unclear now because we're getting reports of continued bombardment in Ukraine as these meetings are taking place.
And important to remind our viewers, these are the same European leaders who President Trump has just agreed to a deal with to sell them weapons to
provide for Ukraine as well. So, a bit of confusion as well as to where exactly the president stands right now.
Alayna Treene, thank you so much.
Let's go to Kyiv where our Ben Wedeman is. And, Ben, as we noted, continued bombardment. And now you've heard sirens go off in the Ukrainian capital as
well.
WEDEMAN: Yes. There were sirens about 40 minutes ago, quite loud echoing over the city. And what we've seen in the last 24 hours is more than usual
drones fired into Ukraine in the last few weeks.
Overnight, 140 drones, according to the Ukrainian defense ministry, were fired into Ukraine as well as three ballistic missiles. At least 10 people
were killed, seven of them in one individual incident, apparently among the dead were children as well. So there is a real fear.
I mean, as -- as we were hearing from our colleague in Moscow earlier that the Russians haven't had much to say about the contents of the meeting in
Alaska. The Ukrainians are talking, the Americans are talking to a certain extent. But certainly, the feeling is that -- and sometimes happens in
negotiations, is that one party is not saying much. And the other is talking a lot and saying that this is what should be done.
For instance, we heard President Trump overnight in his Truth Social posts saying that President Zelenskyy could end the war almost immediately if he
wanted to. But, of course, this is the country that has been invaded and it's not the other way around.
And really the feeling is that, you know, the -- the Russians are biding their time. We've seen in the sense the tide turn in this war where sort of
until late 2022, when the Ukrainians had regained large parts of the Kharkiv region and also had regained control of Kherson city. It looked
like things were going well for them.
But since then, Russia's superiority and manpower and weaponry has enabled them to stop Ukrainian advances. And what we've seen in recent weeks is
they are regaining ground from the Ukrainians, putting them in a stronger position if negotiations actually happen.
Now, we heard President Trump talk about perhaps a summit as early as Friday. That's just four days away. And it's not at all clear if all the
pieces are going to be put into place for that.
But certainly for Ukrainians, it's -- it's been a difficult few days trying to figure out where this war is going. And the feeling is it's not going in
their favor. Dana (ph).
ASHER: Yes. I mean, one of the fears that a lot of Ukrainians have is this idea that the U.S. is going to try to somehow prioritize ending the war
quickly over any kind of just outcome for Ukraine. And, obviously, President Zelenskyy is in this meeting. He has a limited amount of
leverage, limited amount of bargaining power, just like what we saw in February. And so there's a lot of fears as to what may happen over the next
few hours here.
Ben Wedeman live for us there. Thank you so much.
We'll be right back with more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:55:42]
GOLODRYGA: All right. All the European leaders have arrived at the White House now. We are waiting for President Zelenskyy to arrive. He will then
meet with President Trump separately.
Stephen Erlanger joins us now again. He's "The New York Times" chief diplomatic editor and he joins us from Berlin.
It's interesting, and I don't want to read too much into it, Stephen, but it was President Macron of France who was the last to arrive at the White
House, and they were all coming from the Ukrainian embassy where they were meeting with President Zelenskyy leading up to his meeting with President
Trump.
And it was President Macron who I think, at least publicly, was the most sour on the possibility of any sort of peace deal imminently with President
Putin. He said that he has tried it numerous times over the last three years. And, effectively, he says, President Putin doesn't want peace.
So, what do you make of the position that President Zelenskyy is in now, having met with his European colleagues in once again meeting with
President Trump and trying to convince him of just that?
ERLANGER: Well, I think it is important that Emmanuel Macron has come to this. He came to this idea late, I have to say. He -- he did try a lot in
the beginning of the war to make his own diplomacy with Putin and was pushed aside.
So, I think the other thing Zelenskyy will have to remind Trump, with the help of Europeans, is that Donald Trump has said very explicitly, the
United States doesn't want to give any more money to help fund Ukraine. It doesn't want to give any more arms to help Ukraine. This is Europe's
responsibility.
And Europe has the money, certainly, to fund Ukraine. And the United States is very graciously allowing Europeans to buy American arms.
But crucially, America continues to provide operational intelligence, which includes satellite information and encryption and -- and other kinds of
intelligence, which is really crucial to -- to Ukraine's war.
So as much as -- as Trump wants to dump Ukraine onto the -- onto the Europeans and make them the heart of Ukraine's future, it is very important
that they keep Trump on their side also because they need some of the assets that only the United States right now is able to provide.
GOLODRYGA: Trump officials, the president himself over the weekend.
[13:00:00]
END
