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One World with Zain Asher
Australian Leaders Vow To Tighten Gun Laws After Shooting; The Reiner's Son Nick Reiner Taken Into Custody On Unknown Felony Charge After His Parent's Death; Manhunt Underway For Attacker In Deadly Brown University Shooting; Hong Kong Media Tycoon Jimmy Lai Found Guilty; Australian PM: Attack was An Act Of Pure Evil, Anti-Semitism; Aired 12-1p ET
Aired December 15, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[12:00:39]
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Coming to you live from New York, I'm Zain Asher.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. You're watching the second hour of "One World."
A nation is in mourning after a deadly terror attack. We begin, of course, in Australia where hundreds are coming together to sing, lay flowers and
hold a vigil after a mass shooting over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING)
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ASHER: And that happened from there as the crowd gathered to celebrate the start of Hanukkah, the Jewish festival of lights. Let's bring you the
latest.
At least 15 people were killed in the massacre. The victims were from multiple generations from 10 year -- excuse me, 10-year-old girl, Matilda,
to 87-year-old Holocaust survivor. Dozens more were injured.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Australia's Jewish leaders say they have been urging the government for years to address rising anti-Semitism. Sydney is one of the
country's main hubs of Jewish life. Police say the shooters were a father and son who opened fire from a bridge near the famous beach. The father was
killed by police at the scene. His son is in the hospital.
ASHER: Now worth noting that mass shootings are rare in Australia, which already has some of the last toughest gun laws. The government now is
promising that they -- those gun laws will be made even stricter. The prime minister called it a dark day for the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY ALBANESE, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Hanukkah, in part, is about the victory of light over dark. Well, this was a very dark day in
Australian history. But together, we will emerge into the light.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Let's bring in Daniel Lo Surdo, a breaking news reporter at "The Sydney Morning Herald." Daniel, thanks so much for joining us today.
The Jewish community in Australia is very small. They make up about 0.5 percent of the total population, but they are very tight-knit between the
two largest cities, especially Sydney and Melbourne.
It's a community where so many know the victims, know those who are killed or are hospitalized now, who range in age from 10 years old to Holocaust
survivors, a number of rabbis as well.
Just talk to us now some 24 hours later, how the community is still in the mourning process and coming together to cope with this tragedy.
DANIEL LO SURDO, BREAKING NEWS REPORTER, THE SYDNEY MORNING HERALD: Yes, good morning to you both. As you sort of said, it's -- it's very rare. This
doesn't happen very often. The sort of last shooting massacre was in 1996 in Port Arthur in Tasmania, so it's been some 30 years between the last
shooting.
They've been quite shocked, naturally. These sort of things don't really happen in Australia as you sort of signaled before, so people are very
shocked and still come to grips with what actually happened on Sunday night.
ASHER: And just in terms of, and we've all now seen this video that, I mean, really touched me of this man, Ahmed Al Ahmed, wrestling with the
shooter, with the father, and then he takes the gun. That just -- that takes so much bravery to do that in the moment.
I mean, obviously, that moment is filled with adrenaline. There's so much fear. You know, you don't know what's happening. Gun shootings, as you
point out, mass shootings in Australia are already very rare.
For him to be able to have the presence of mind to do that in that moment is one of the most remarkable acts of heroism I've seen in a long time.
What do we know about Ahmed Al Ahmed?
LO SURDO: Yes. So Ahmed Al Ahmed is, as you mentioned, a new Australian hero. He's still in hospital, as of this morning. He suffered two gunshot
wounds as a result of his heroism and, of course, being in that area at that time.
By all reports, he's in a good condition. He's in good spirits. He was visited by the New South Wales Premier last night. So he would go for a
couple of surgeries, still, I understand, but in -- in good spirits.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. It is always incredible when you see such heroism come out of such darkness and atrocity. I spoke with a rabbi who described Ahmed Al
Ahmed as an Aussie. I mean, that -- that's what they do. They come together. Of course, this is a community that has been left so badly
wounded.
And as we noted, frustrated a lot of concern about what many in that Jewish community view is a lack of urgency in terms of responding to anti-Semitism
for many years now.
[12:05:07]
Daniel Lo Surdo, it is very early there. So thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it.
ASHER: Thank you, Daniel.
LO SURDO: Thanks for having me. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, it has just been a horrific weekend of tragedy upon tragedy, upon tragedy, and yet another one breaking news, we are following
the deaths of Rob and Michelle Reiner.
Just moments ago, we learned that the Reiners' son, Nick, has been taken into custody on unknown felony charge. Los Angeles police chief Jim
McDonnell arrests the -- addressed the incident just moments ago.
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JIM MCDONNELL, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: The stage is still limited, but I'll share what we can.
First of all, our hearts go out to the family and friends of the Reiners' tragic incident. Yesterday at 12 -- December 14th, about 3:40 in the
afternoon, LAPD responded to a residence, the residence of Rob and Michelle Reiner located in West Los Angeles Division.
At that location, they found two deceased adults, a male and a female. Through the night working with the coroner's office, they were able to
identify them definitively as Rob and Michelle Reiner.
We have our robbery homicide division handling the investigation. They worked throughout the night on this case and were able to take into custody
Nick Reiner, a suspect in this case.
He was subsequently booked for murder and is being held on $4 million bail. Pretty much that's what I can share at this point, but again, a very tragic
incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And that tragedy on the West Coast, of course, we'll continue to follow that developing story.
And as we continue for the last 48 hours to be following the shooting out of Rhode Island, a manhunt has restarted in that state as police search for
the shooter responsible for Saturday's attack at Brown University that killed two students and injured nine others.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(GUNSHOTS)
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ASHER: It's a tragically familiar scene moments of terror on campus, students sheltering in place as gunfire rings out and police rushing in for
a shooter.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Investigators released this surveillance camera video saying that they're convinced they're searching for a lone attacker
following the release of a person of interest they had in custody. But fear and anxiety remain for the community even as they mourn the victims.
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TONY MORETTINI, RETIREE AND ACTIVIST: We have all experienced this unfortunately too often from afar. And even the Australian one would be
more abstract, horrible but abstract. But boy, when it -- when it's here, it just makes it so real. It just -- I think we've all, you know, been
feeling -- it -- it literally hurts. Yep, that's so cold.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Let's get to Providence where CNN correspondent Brian Todd is standing by. I mean, you can't even imagine what students at Brown
University have been through just emotionally over the past few days, especially when you think about the fact that the suspect is still on the
loose, which is incredibly unsettling because obviously you don't necessarily know if the threat is over.
Obviously, police say that it is at this point, but the fact that this man is still, this person rather, is still on the loose is a very difficult
sort of pill to swallow for a lot of the students on that -- on the campus in terms of making them feel safe.
What do we know at this point about the investigation? Because police are looking at this one 10-second clip of this man walking around the corner.
He's dressed in dark clothing, but they don't even see his face.
You can't even see his face in that video. You're only really seeing the back of him, which obviously is very limiting in terms of the information
they can actually get. And they haven't -- they haven't managed to question this man.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Zain and Bianna. What the police and the mayor are saying is that that one piece of video, that 10-
second clip of a person dark -- in dark clothing walking around a corner is pretty much the best evidence right -- they have right now, the best video
they have right now showing who they believe to be responsible for the shooting.
They are asking members of the public yet again in this neighborhood. I'm right near the school -- the building of the school where the shooting took
place. They're asking anyone in this neighborhood, anyone in this area of Providence, if you have any possible video showing this person moving
around. We need it and we need it -- we need it immediately. So they are really appealing for the public to come forward.
Now in announcing last night that they had to release the previous person of interest, they talked about that person in the video. The police chief
Oscar Perez talked about it, but then the Attorney General, Peter Neronha, the Attorney General of Rhode Island, spoke right after that to reiterate
that that's a person of interest.
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But just kind of look at the dynamic here in this piece of tape from the news conference from the police chief and the attorney general. Take a
listen.
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OSCAR PEREZ, RHODE ISLAND POLICE CHIEF: What we saw in the video is the person we're looking for.
PETER NERONHA, RHODE ISLAND ATTORNEY GENERAL: We described that person as a person of interest. So there are a lot of unknowns in this case and that's
one unknown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: So, even with that piece of video and that person that they're looking at, they're -- they're being very, very cautious now because so
much hope was built up on Sunday when they apprehended what they called a person of interest.
A lot of people in this town thought it's over. We have him. Well, obviously that wasn't the case. So, even when they say that that's the
person they're looking for, that person on the tape, the attorney general, Peter Neronha, was very quick to kind of almost supersede the police chief
there and say, but that's a person of interest.
I've been told that they're looking at other persons of interest too, but that that's very initial, but these are not hard suspects, and that they
are just kind of combing through some tips from the public.
What was also interesting last night, the mayor of Providence, Brett Smiley, said, they have no way of knowing whether the shooter is in
Providence or even in the state, and yet, they're also saying that they believe that the public should feel safe, that there's no enhanced threat
to the public.
Those two statements seem to be at cross purposes. You're saying that you have no idea where this person is. And yet, you're -- you're also saying we
believe the -- the public should feel safe, that there's no enhanced threat here, there's no specific threat, and that there's no need for a lockdown
or shelter in place. Zain, Bianna?
ASHER: All right. Brian Todd live for us there. Thank you so much.
All right. Let's bring in Ed Davis, the former commissioner of the Boston Police Department, who also joins us live now.
You know, we spoke about an hour ago, Ed. And just in terms of the son now being arrested. We know that it's based on an unknown felony charge. Your
thoughts on that particular charge, what do we know about this unknown felony charge? What does it tell us?
ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, it's clear to me that this is a case of sort of a murder among a family member, which these
crimes of passion are so difficult to -- to investigate, but the -- the -- a $4 million bail is an indication to me that they're charging him with
murder.
And -- and so now, they have to look at all of the evidence that's there. They have to look at mitigating circumstances and -- and then make sure
that the family gets an accounting. They're surviving members of the family.
They need to be brought in and informed what the evidence is. And they need to work with them. And then they have to determine whether the family is
going to be supportive of the -- of the brother or horrified of -- based of what he did.
And -- and, you know, there's -- the dynamics here, the interpersonal dynamics are so incredibly difficult that you -- you actually, as a police
officer, you really hate to work one of these cases.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And the family has been quite public and transparent over the past several decades of this struggle that their son has had with
mental illness and with drug abuse as well. So it is just a tragedy on multiple levels. And then, of course, for all of us that have loved his
work, Rob Reiner's work as a filmmaker, as an actor, as an activist, it is -- it is horrific.
I do want to ask you, Ed, if we can go back to the shooting in Rhode Island at Brown University and what you make of the latest dynamics there, where a
person of interest was detained, questioned, the community could sigh a breath of relief, only to find out the next morning that he was released,
and that was probably based on evidence that they now find applicable to this case.
And the fact that the community is being told you're safe, but yet, there is a killer that has been on the loose now for 48 hours.
DAVIS: Right. And -- and caution is the watchword with this case right now. I just saw it play out with the interaction with the attorney general and
the police chief, both very good professionals, but transparency bumps up against caution in cases like this.
And so everybody's going to walk softly and make sure they're not definitive in their statements. They're going to make a lot of qualifying
statements.
The -- the -- the difficulty here is being absolutely certain of the next steps that you take so that you can maintain the trust of the public.
People are afraid down here. They want solutions. They want answers. And unfortunately, there are none right now.
So it's really important to be honest with the people to -- to the best degree and tell them that, you know, this is a calculated guess when --
when you're saying, we're going to lift the shelter order. You -- you can't make one of those orders for more than 24 hours. It's -- it's not
practical.
[12:15:16]
But when you -- when you lift it, you do have to be honest and say, you -- you know, keep your eye out. We don't know exactly what's going on here.
And -- and you can feel safe to the degree that we believe he's fled the scene, which would be the normal response of someone who's trying to get
away. But if you remember back to the Tsarnaev case, the -- the -- the arrests and apprehension of the Boston bombers, they were not trying to get
away. They were making more bombs. So there is always an outside possibility. And we hope to God that doesn't happen.
But -- but making sure the public is prepared for anything is really important right now to maintain the trust of the public and the future.
ASHER: Yes. That -- that manhunt in the case of the Tsarnaev brothers, that -- that took a -- that took a really long time before they were -- one
brother was captured.
Just in terms of the -- the public's help, how important is the public's help in this case? Our Brian Todd, who's on scene right now, was reporting
that there really is only sort of one flimsy, sort of 10-second video that investigators are relying on. And they don't even know if that person was
necessarily involved. But they don't even see his face in that video.
And also on top of that, the building where the shooting took place doesn't have many security cameras because it's an older building. So now, you have
the police really relying on the public's help, on eyewitnesses, to come forward, right?
DAVIS: There's no question that's going to be really important. So the canvassing of the neighborhood by detectives who are going door to door
looking for Ring doorbell footage, any kind of unusual activity that occurred during the suspect's escape, that's all good old-fashioned police
work.
And right, we're only looking at a small video. But I'll tell you that there's a lot more evidence than that in this case. That -- that video
shows a bunch of different things. It shows the height of -- of the suspect that can be easily determined by sending detectives out to measure that
lamppost that he walked by. You can get a good idea of the build of the individual just by the way he fills out that jacket.
And then you get into the actual clothing that he was wearing. So if you look at the detective work that was done in the -- in Washington, D.C.
bombing case, they were able to put that case together by looking at clothing and determining who bought those clothes in the area.
All those like old-fashioned detective work systems are in place. They're running down the ballistics evidence. They're checking NIBIN, the ATF
computer to make sure that these -- these special casings are not unique to this crime and maybe were involved in other crimes.
There's a world of evidence out there that -- that is very actively being pursued right now. The police aren't going to talk about that. They're not
going to throw all their cards up on the table. But believe me, it's an intense investigation, I guarantee it.
GOLODRYGA: That D.C. bombing case took five years to solve. So let's hope that's not the -- the timeline here.
ASHER: All right. Ed Davis --
DAVIS: Totally. Totally.
ASHER: -- appreciate you joining us. Thank you. Thank you so much.
DAVIS: Thank you.
ASHER: And we've got more coverage of Rob Reiner's and Michelle Reiner's legacy, his film, such as when "Harry Met Sally" had -- almost had an
entirely different ending. We'll look back on the memorable love story that unfolded off-camera.
Plus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY LAI, BUSINESSMAN AND POLITICIAN: Fight for your freedom. Because without freedom, you have nothing left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Hong Kong media tycoon, Jimmy Lai, found guilty under Hong Kong's national security laws. Now his son is urging the U.K. to push
harder to bring about his release.
ASHER: Plus, Chile has made its sharpest shift to the right in decades. We'll take a look at the country's new president-elect.
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GOLODRYGA: Chile has elected its next president, far right candidate, Jose Antonio Kast one in the run off securing more than 58 percent of the vote.
ASHER: He's been a consistent hardliner throughout his political career proposing building border walls, deploying the military to hide crime
cities and deporting all migrants that entered the country illegally.
The election follows a right-wing trend happening across Latin America joining Ecuador, El Salvador and Argentina.
GOLODRYGA: Well, the son of Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai is calling on the U.K. to work for his father's release from prison.
ASHER: Yes. Court in Hong Kong today handed down a guilty verdict on two counts in Lai's trial under the city's national security laws as well as a
lesser sedition charge too.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. The 78-year-old was one of the highest profile critics of Beijing amid pro-democracy protests in the past decade. Here's what Lai's
son Sebastian had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEBASTIAN LAI, JIMMY LAI'S SON: Besides the values that he stands for, which are international, his citizenship is -- is British. So there's an
additional responsibility for the U.K. to -- to -- to stand behind him.
Look, I -- I think they are now in the right place. You would have seen the FCDO issued a strong statement today. But it's about putting action
towards, because -- I mean, because if you use the example of my father, for example, I mean, that's a man who did put action to words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: CNN's Kristie Lu Stout has more from Hong Kong.
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KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After 156 days of verdict for Hong Kong media mogul Jimmy Lai, guilty of sedition and two counts of
colluding with foreign forces, Lai is the most high-profile critic of Beijing charged under the national security law that was imposed on Hong
Kong in 2020.
The trial has been widely viewed as a measure of the city's shrinking freedoms under Chinese rule. Lai had pleaded not guilty to the charges.
LU STOUT: CNN was in court for the ruling. Jimmy Lai appeared calm, wearing glasses, a blazer and a light green sweater. At one point, he raised his
hand and smiled at his wife and one of his sons, who was sitting behind me in the gallery alongside Cardinal Joseph Zen, another outspoken critic of
the Chinese Communist Party.
When the verdict was read aloud, Jimmy Lai, wearing headphones, looked straight ahead, and there was complete silence in the court.
LU STOUT (voice-over): Lai founded the now-defunct Apple Daily, once Hong Kong's largest pro-democracy newspaper, which regularly challenged the
government.
He was a fixture at anti-government protests that brought Hong Kong to a standstill in 2014 and was considered by many as a father figure to Hong
Kong's pro-democracy movement.
LAI: I think it's a good idea anytime, any situation that you are in to fight for your freedom. Because without freedom, you have nothing left.
LU STOUT (voice-over): Scores of people, many supporters of Lai, stood in line for a chance to witness the verdict. Some even sleeping overnight
outside the court building to secure a spot.
[12:25:07]
Security was tight, with police officers and vehicles out in force. The trial has attracted global scrutiny with the U.S. and other countries
demanding Jimmy Lai's release.
Weeks before he was arrested, Lai appealed to U.S. President Donald Trump for help. An administration official told CNN that Trump raised Lai's case
with Chinese leader Xi Jinping during their talks in South Korea earlier this year.
Chinese authorities have warned repeatedly against foreign interference. Hong Kong's government insists that Lai has been given a fair trial, and
Beijing is backing that.
GUO JIAKUN, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN (through translator): The central government firmly supports the Hong Kong Special Administrative
Region in lawfully upholding national security and punishing criminal acts that endanger national security.
Lu stout (voice-over): Jimmy Lai has been in prison for the last five years. His family concerned that incarceration is taking its toll.
The Hong Kong government says Lai has been getting regular medical checkups and is receiving, quote, suitable treatment and care. Lai left court in a
prison van. He now awaits sentencing.
Collusion with foreign forces is punishable by up to life in prison. At 78 years old, life for Jimmy Lai would most likely mean life.
Kristie Lu Stout, CNN, Hong Kong.
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ASHER: All right, coming up.
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JAYMEE WILLIAMS, SYDNEY RESIDENT: He's saved so many people. If it wasn't for him, who knows how long it could have kept on going.
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ASHER: Recovering from gunshot wounds, Sydney residents are honoring a bystander who single-handedly took down one of the shooters in this
horrific attack. That story, next.
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GOLODRYGA: All right. Welcome back to "One World." I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: I'm Zain Asher.
Australia is praising the actions of a man. People are calling the Bondi hero bystander who helped stopped the Sydney attack. Warning, you may find
this video about to show you disturbing.
GOLODRYGA: But it is incredibly heroic. A witness captured the moments that a brave bystander now identified as Ahmed Al Ahmed, a son of Syrian
refugees, wrestled a gun away from one of the shooters.
Ahmed is currently being treated for gunshot wounds and a GoFundMe account has raised nearly $1 million for his recovery and to, quote, honor an
absolute hero.
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WILLIAMS: Yes. I just can't believe he had the courage to run straight in and put his body on the line for so many people. Like he saved so many
people. If it wasn't for him, who knows how long it could have kept on going.
GARRATH STYLES, SYDNEY RESIDENT: You'd like to hope that you would react the same way if you had the chance. I don't know if I'm as strong as he is.
He was incredibly strong and very brave and managed to take the gun off the guy, which is incredible.
AARON ASHTON, SYDNEY RESIDENT: Yes. I think he's a national hero for sure. Probably an international hero. A lot of people around the world wouldn't
it have done that. A lot of people would run away from the gun fire. He ran towards it, so a fair play out on him probably saved a lot of lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Vigils are being held across the world to mark Australia's deadliest shooting in almost 30 years.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Hundreds of people showed up in Paris, London and Berlin to mourn the 15 people killed in Sunday's attack, which occurred during
Hanukkah celebrations.
Australia's Prime Minister describes the shooting as an evil act of anti- Semitism and terrorism. Among the victims were two rabbis, the cousin of British-born Eli Schlinger, who is also a rabbi, describes him as a warm
and energetic person who loved helping people.
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RABBI ZALMAN LEWIS, COUSIN OF VICTIM RABBI ELI SCHLINGER: The instant reaction, like so many other human beings, is pointing fingers at whoever
you might point fingers at with anxiety. Why aren't the media raising the concerns of the Jewish community feel?
And then my brain says, no, stop. I'm a rabbi. I'm not a politician. My job is to spread goodness.
I know this is what Eli would be saying, go and do good things. Help an old lady cross the road. Help an old man with his shopping. Visit someone
lonely.
Tonight is the first night of Hanukkah. Every Jew who is willing to listen, light your Hanukkah candles and let every single human being on earth
create positive light. This is what we can do. This is what we must do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: That is what this holiday is about, shining the light even in the face of evil.
Time now for "The Exchange." Joining us is Amanda Berman. She's the founder and executive director of Zioness, an organization focusing on fighting
anti-Semitism. Amanda, it is really good to see you. Thank you so much for joining us.
And, you know, this attack happened in yet another horrific murder of Jewish civilians, innocent people who are celebrating the first night of
Hanukkah. We talked about how tightknit this community is in Australia, such a small percentage of the population, 0.5 percent.
And what makes this even more heartbreaking is there had been a lot of concern around the world here in the United States as well, but also in
Australia, about the rise in anti-Semitism, the anti-Semitic attacks against places of worship and businesses belonging to Jewish-Australians
and this sense of vulnerability or that leadership was not taking these threats seriously enough.
Just talk about the risks and the dangers that so many Jews feel they face today in 2025 around the world.
AMANDA BERMAN, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ZIONESS: Well, thank you so much, Bianna, for having me and both of you for covering this issue over
the past couple of years in particular.
It is true that Jewish communities all over the world are feeling extraordinary vulnerability, both because of increasing risks and
increasing violent threats and also because of the gaslighting that so many people are experiencing, so many Jews are experiencing when they try to
explain the way that some of this language is being normalized, and tolerated, and adopted in parts of our culture and our society.
And we saw on October 9th, only two days after the October 7th attack, which resulted in the largest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust, that
at the Sydney Opera House, there were pro-Hamas terrorists that were actually marching and chanting to globalize the Intifada, were chanting
something that sounded to a lot of people in Australia at the time, like gas the Jews. It was later decided that what they were saying is actually,
where are the Jews?
[12:35:19]
But either way, when you are chanting about Jews and -- and criticizing and targeting Jews this way, it's going to result in violence. And we've seen
it here at home in America. We've seen it in Washington, D.C. and in Boulder.
And unfortunately, if we don't take drastic action, we're going to see more of it.
ASHER: Yes. These sorts of attacks that we saw in Bondi Beach, Australia are designed to invoke fear. They're designed to scare the Jewish
community.
If you are Jewish and you work at a synagogue or you send your kids to a school that is obviously Jewish or if you are attending Hanukkah parties
over the next seven days, I mean, obviously, it's important to be vigilant. It's important to have your wits about you, but at the same time, you still
have to live your life.
You know, you cannot allow terrorism to make you cower and to be afraid and to stay at home and that sort of thing. That's what it's designed to do.
So, how do you do both? How do you have your wits about you, stay vigilant, but at the same time, live your life?
BERMAN: You know, I appreciate this question so much because it's something that the Jewish people have been grappling with in the entire history of
Jewish life where, you know, we've been forced both to hold joy and suffering, you know, celebration and pain and to figure out how to navigate
all of that at the same time.
And Hanukkah, the holiday that our beloved Jewish siblings were celebrating last night in Australia, it was the first night of an eight-night holiday
that is all about being the light, about Jewish strength and pride and resilience in the face of those who seek to erase us.
And one of the things that I was most inspired about by the rabbi who was killed yesterday, was murdered yesterday in Australia, was that just last
year on Hanukkah, in the face of exploding anti-Semitism in Australia, he put a menorah on the roof of his car and he drove around and said, I'm
going to bring the light no matter how scary it may be for so many Jews to be proud and open in their Judaism right now.
And that's what I hope all of us will do, continue to light our menorahs, continue to be -- to be very proud, to continue to show up and be in
community with each other. Never take the threats, you know, don't -- don't ever ignore the seriousness of the threats.
And we're so very lucky to have Jewish communal institutions that work so hard to keep our community safe.
Now, Congress in the U.S. has to do more to make sure that the nonprofit security grants program is properly funded, that it can meet the needs not
just of the Jewish community, but of lots of at-risk communities, and to make sure that there are better processes in place.
Secretary Noem and the Department of Homeland Security need to do better and respond to the request of bipartisan set of requests from legislators
about the distribution of those funds that are used to protect houses of worship and Jewish organizations and institutions, along with those of
other communities as well.
GOLODRYGA: Amanda, you know, you and I have talked about this, Zain, we have as well. I never would have imagined writing a -- a book, a fictional
book for -- for middle grade and young readers on this very topic just five years ago, but yet here we are.
And there does seem to be this urgency, which is what triggered this book for me, in -- in having anti-Semitism treated and addressed as adamantly,
as directly, as urgently as other forms of hate.
And for so long, we have seen, I know many in the Jewish community and so many of our allies have felt that it hasn't been elevated to that status.
And thus, it's been somewhat normalized that no one is condoning anti- Semitism, but at the same time, the level of urgency is not there.
But there is something horrible about normalizing the need for mass security at places of worship. And this goes before, way back, many years
before the October 7th attacks. And this relates to countries around the world.
In your view and from what you are learning and your research shows, Amanda, what more can be done in terms of making sure that this is
addressed as the same kind of threat that other forms of hate against minorities is?
BERMAN: First of all, Bianna, thank you for your leadership on this and for writing this book, which I know is going to educate so many people in the
next generation, Jewish and non-Jewish.
As to the threat and as to the seriousness of it, which you and I know is not only a threat to Jewish life, it is a threat to progress. It is a
threat to all marginalized communities. Anti-Semitism intersects with other forms of hate to result in violence against other communities.
There's anti-Semitic animus that has driven the shooter in the Buffalo grocery store that killed 11 Black Americans. And, you know, the shooter at
the Pulse nightclub in Florida, the target of the LGBTQ community.
[12:40:05]
So fighting anti-Semitism is an issue of democracy, is an issue of liberal values and freedom and safety for everyone. And something that's been
happening all too often, as I mentioned already, is the gaslighting of Jews who are trying to help people understand what contemporary anti-Semitism
looks like.
And there's this debate that has been raging around whether or not anti- Zionism is anti-Semitism. It's such an irrelevant debate because it has become so clear, so proven that anti-Zionism is itself a murderous
ideology.
And for people who know their history and for people who care about learning and getting educated, they can look at the first contemporary
manifesto of anti-Zionism, which is "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," which actually inspired Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and ultimately the
eradication of the Jewish community of Europe.
Six million Jews murdered in the Holocaust because of the ideas that were circulated in a book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." The Jews
were called the Elders of Zion, the Zionists. And they were accused of trying to dominate the world with global conspiracies and loyalty to higher
Jewish causes and not to the societies they live in.
These ideas are malignant and metastatic. And if we don't confront them, whether Jews are being targeted as Jews in their houses of worship, as
Zionists on college campuses, as people who are proud of our identity and our history and our peoplehood, and our homeland, Israel.
If people don't see the connections between those threats, unfortunately, again, this threat will only rise and it will harm every single one of us.
ASHER: You know, one of the things that I find most tragic is that so many of these anti-Semitic attacks take place on or around Jewish holidays. I
mean, you think about October 7th, that was around Simchat Torah, celebrating and honoring the end of the sort of public cycle of the reading
of the Torah. And then you had, after that, the Manchester synagogue, more recently, the Manchester synagogue attack, which is around Yom Kippur.
Obviously, what we saw at Bondi Beach in Australia yesterday was the start of Hanukkah.
Do you think -- I mean, Hanukkah has at least another seven days left. Do you think that the holiday will take on additional significance because it
is about, at its core, light overcoming darkness and, you know, the resilience and the triumph of the Jewish people?
Will this holiday have more significance because of what happened on Sunday?
BERMAN: That's a great question. You know, Hanukkah, of course, already has so much significance for the Jewish community, though it's actually not our
-- our most devout holiday. It's taken on a major level of significance in the U.S. and in Western countries where people celebrate Christmas, the
sort of the Jewish opportunity for celebration in the winter.
We actually have a holiday in August called Tisha B'Av, which commemorates --
GOLODRYGA: Amanda.
BERMAN: -- all of these.
BERMAN: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Amanda, I'm so sorry. We -- we have a shortened show today, so we'll have to leave it there.
But yes, Hanukkah is definitely going to be observed in a much different light, but we still are shining the light.
Amanda Berman, thank you so much. We really appreciate the time.
BERMAN: Thank you, guys. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And that does it for "One World" today. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: I'm Zain Asher. Appreciate you watching.
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