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Reza Pahlavi Speaks with CNN at Munich Security Conference; World Leaders and Top Diplomats at Munich Security Conference; Congress Fails to Pass DHS Funding; Survivors of Epstein Abuse Frustrated. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired February 13, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: -- how you sort of talk about that right now, how you think about that right now? And also,
like it or not, Ayatollah Khomeini had a ground game. He had the mosques, he had people who are actually religious, and he had access to the press,
as you know, in Paris, and he had a real operation, you know, cassettes smuggled in with his words into the mosques in Iran. I was there during
that year of the revolution, and I remember it very well.
So, this is all to ask you, why do you think, Pahlavi, should be the leader again, and how can you do it? What kind of a plan do you have? What kind of
a political ground game inside the country do you have? I mean, it's necessary, right? You've got to also be able to convince people there and
to have an organization.
REZA PAHLAVI, SON OF IRAN'S FORMER SHAH: Well, when it comes to the name, that's the name that people chanted on the streets of Iran by the millions
in 31 provinces of Iran, in the four corners of Iran. They called my name, they asked me to come to their support, and I have, and I accepted the
challenge of leading the transition.
As far as the plan that we have, we have a plan before the regime's collapse and particularly for the transition after this regime, which is
very well documented and presented. It's an open document. You can see it on the website of the Iran and Iran Prosperity Project. It talks about the
emerge -- the initial 100 days. How do we manage that process? How do we avoid what happened in Iraq post Saddam Hussein? Because we don't want to
have the same experience of de-Baathification.
And one of the key components of this strategy is how much defection can exist, not just because we need them on the side of the people, but
because, and that has been my principle position, that anyone who doesn't have their hands soiled with the blood of the Iranian people should survive
regime change and have a place in the future. They can be part of the solution as opposed to remain part of the problem. That's very critical to
maintain a stable transition, both on the civilian side, as well as the military side.
AMANPOUR: So, I want to pick -- I want to follow up on what you just said, whoever doesn't have blood on their hands. But as you know, a lot of your
supporters or people claiming to be your supporters, or I don't know, bots online or whatever, have zero tolerance to anybody who's in Iran right now.
They call everybody a collaborator, everybody an appeaser.
There is this incredible woman, Narges Mohammadi, who's a Nobel Peace Laureate. She should be a source of pride for her human rights and her
sacrifice that she's made. And yet online, it is catastrophic what people claiming to be your supporters are saying. So, I don't know whether you
want to say something to them, whether you reject this kind of lumping together anybody who actually lives in Iran and has to survive.
PAHLAVI: Look, I've always spoken against any kind of political violence or intimidation as a matter of principle. And I think this is an
opportunity to say that one of our asks is, of course, the immediate release of all political prisoners, that includes Narges Mohammadi. And I
think when you look at the future of Iran, while today we can all be allies for a common cause of liberation and a secular democracy as an alternative
to this clerical dictatorship, I think we are all in the same boat.
We may vote differently tomorrow, and tomorrow someone like Narges Mohammadi may choose to run as prime minister or president, that's fine.
But today we need to first address the issue of liberation. And on that I think the vast majority of Iranian secular Democrats, whether they are
Republicans or monarchists or socialists or conservatives or, you know, representatives of our ethnic groups or religious minorities, when you look
at the diversity among us, we are quite united on these principles.
And I think that is where we need to stand together in unison and do not allow those who -- and I think the regime is behind a lot of these
campaigns, to try to discredit not just me, but pose as representative of this or that group, because they always try to play the divide and rule
game. They always try, over the years, to make sure that such an array of opposition can never unite in a real sense.
What I call, again, and I take the opportunity to remind people what this struggle is all about. This struggle is about freedom. This struggle is
about the equality of all citizens. This struggle is about freedom of speech. This struggle is all about democracy and the ballot box. And we can
certainly compete in the future, but today is the time to make sure that we don't have that ballot box through which we can determine who has what
level of support or who can be able to do this and that. We need to get there first.
So, remind ourselves, we're reminding everybody, our cause is for everyone to fit under this tent. And this tent could be as wide as it can get, so
long as we can agree on at least -- this is what I'm calling for, on at least four key principles. Number one is Iran's territorial integrity. This
is a matter very important for many Iranians.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: Yes.
PAHLAVI: Number two is the obvious need for separation of church from state, which is a prerequisite to democracy. On that we agree, including
many clerics in Iran who have spoken time and again against the Velayat-e Faqih. They don't believe that religion has a place in politics, and they
know how much damage was done to the faith as a result of this regime.
AMANPOUR: So, just we know that that is the guiding principle of the Islamic Republic.
PAHLAVI: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: The supreme leader represents God.
PAHLAVI: And we had many clerics from the beginning who were ostracized by the regime. Today, we have one of the leading clerics in Iran, Molavi
Abdolhamid, a Sunni cleric who has spoken against this regime and believes in fact as a clergyman in the separation of church from state. So, it's an
established fact within Iranian people.
Number three is equality of all citizens under the law and individual liberties. And number four is the right for the Iranian people to determine
their own future. This is exactly the agenda of the transitional government, to make sure that Iranians will have the ability to elect their
representative to the constitutional assembly, to decide first what it is that they want in their future, and unlike 1979 where nobody had a clue
what Islamic Republic means, but a clear option as to what are the diverse possibilities, allow for a constitutional assembly to draft a constitution,
allow for people to either adopt it by a referendum or reject it and have another draft, or for it to finally end up with a ratified constitution
approved by the nation.
Then we will have the elections of the first parliament and the first government of that future democracy. Whether it ends up being a republic or
it ends up being a constitutional monarchy, that's exactly for the people to decide. And the minute this happens, the transitional government
dissolves itself and turn over control to the elected members of the Iranian parliament and government. That's the end of that process of
transition from now until the next future of democracy.
AMANPOUR: To your future. But I really do need to ask you, will you tell your supporters online or wherever they might be to stop, in your name,
this kind of attack on ordinary Iranians? Because it's very terrifying.
PAHLAVI: I have, and they know it, and it's not only them. I think this should be for everyone to follow as a principle. There shouldn't be any
place for political violence or intimidation from anyone. And I think we should all adhere to principles. I'm not talking just to one group, I'm
talking to every single Iranian out there, regardless of their political affiliation.
We need to show and demonstrate that exactly that's where we differ. A regime that is in a punitive way forcing an ideology and has been
discriminating against every possible aspect of people disagreeing with them, as opposed to those of us who cherish the values of freedom, have
tolerance for other viewpoints, believe in pluralism. And that's exactly how we define ourselves as a contrast to this regime.
We have to show it beyond words in action. And that's something that I've always called for, but I cannot control millions of people and whatever
they say in social media, and who knows if they're real people or not. That I can't control, but I can only stress the importance of these values.
AMANPOUR: You don't approve of it?
PAHLAVI: Of course, I don't approve, and I've condemned it. I think there are many people in this room who in fact often have reposted my statements
that are aware of this fact, that I've done my part as much as possible to condemn that type of behavior that I will not tolerate and will not stand
for.
AMANPOUR: To your role, what do you want to represent if there was this opportunity? Do you want to be king? Do you want to be president? What is
your role in this situation?
PAHLAVI: You know, from the first day I started, I considered my mission in life to bring the country to a point that we can have that final
referendum and the people elect their first democratic government in the future. That to me is the finish line and mission accomplished in life. I
don't have any personal ambition. I'm not seeking power. I don't want to have a crown on my head or a title, but I think that they should look at me
as a bridge to that destination and not the destination itself. That's my focus.
And any other argument about whether or not I will have a future role is placing the cart before the horse. My focus is on delivering on what I
promised 47 years ago. That has been my commitment, and the reason millions of people in Iran are calling me and my name and want my return is because
they know that they can trust me on this. I'm the only person that was not part of the revolution or ever associated with this regime, and that's a
big plus when it comes to how many candidates are out there. And that's why you hear my name chanted on the streets of Iran, and a lot of people in the
diaspora support it as well.
[13:10:00]
AMANPOUR: I remember covering the Ahmadinejad era in Iran, and it was a very aggressive posture on every issue, including anti-Semitism, anti-
Israel, talking about wiping it off the face of the map, very, very violent. And I think it really, really put certainly the Israelis and Jews
around the world off. You have been to Israel. You have, I believe, visited the Western Wall. You have supported -- you are supported by this Israeli
government. I want to know what you think -- so, I just wondered whether, why you think that that is an important relationship to build.
PAHLAVI: Well, first I would say that I think there are only two nations on this planet that can claim to have a biblical relationship with one
another. One is Israel, one is Iran. It goes back to the time of Cyrus the Great. Cyrus the Great, who liberated the Jewish slaves in Babylon and
helped them rebuild their temple in Jerusalem.
And when the Iranians go and gather at Pasargadae around Cyrus the Great's tomb years ago, of all walks of life, of different, you know, ethnicities,
different religions that celebrate Cyrus the Great, because he represents every values that Iranians cherish and believe in, and say that we are not
a nation at war with our neighbors. We can be trusted partners in the region, working with the Arab countries, working with Israel, as opposed to
a regime that is acting the way it did. That's the difference right there.
We need to be able to show the world that Iranians, unlike this regime, are committed to friendly relationship with our neighbors. We don't have any
issue with the Arabs. We don't have any issue with the Israelis. And why is Israel important? Because I think it is a very important strategic partner
to Iran when it comes to this. I'm thinking beyond just the politics of it. I'm talking about the water crisis in Iran, which is a major issue for us,
well beyond politics. If there's no water, there's no life. And guess who have the best specialists and experts in the world dealing with water
issues? Israeli experts. One of the reasons I went to Israel was to talk about that as well.
And there's so many ways that we can engage and partner with them, helping us in that area, as opposed to a regime that says, no, they don't even have
the right to exist. That's the difference. So, it's not necessarily focusing only on one country, it's a regional thing. But most importantly,
from the prism, whether it's Europe or the United States, why can't we, as people of that region, be the ones working together to bring about
stability without having to depend on an armada of U.S. aircraft carriers to maintain stability and peace in the region? Why can't we work with each
other? That's the difference, because Iranians are committed to that.
And when you look at how it's perceived inside Iran, let's remember one thing. The regime has been the one financing its proxies, Hezbollah, Hamas.
When they got over $200 billion a few years ago that was spent not on Iranians that are starving on the streets, but to in fact empower these
proxies that led perhaps to October 7th.
And when people for years have been chanting in Iran, neither Gaza nor Lebanon, my life will be sacrificed for Iran, that means what? That means
not Hamas, not Hezbollah. And in that sense, it's a very clear demarcation from this regime. This is not me saying it, this is people chanting it for
years to come, before the mass uprising, after the mass uprising. That's part of the national psyche.
Today in every demonstration we see in the diaspora, you see that it's the Iranian national flag, a lot of time we see the Israeli flag, and the
respective flag of the country where they live. Tomorrow in the rally you'll probably see a lot of German flags, as we saw Australian flag in
Australia, as we saw the Canadian flag in Toronto and Montreal, or the American flag in L.A., showing that Iranians are respective universally of
any peace-loving nations, they are respective of their host country. That's the difference between us and this regime that's basically so antagonistic.
I think that's basically the spirit of our movement that is demonstrated by the will and resolve of Iranians that say we are not this regime, we are
not warmongers, we want to be the peacemakers.
AMANPOUR: There is so much we could talk more about. This is a very good table laying of your plans and your -- you know, your proposals. I just
want to open to one person on the floor, because you remember after the Women Life Freedom protests, there was the Georgetown Coalition, which saw
you on stage uniting with a lot of diaspora activists, including Nazanin Boniadi and Masih Alinejad. I think they're both here.
But we're going to ask Nazanin to stand up. And of course, that didn't last. It didn't last. It was just a very brief moment of unity. And I don't
know whether Nazanin wants to say anything on behalf of, you know, opposition.
[13:15:00]
NAZANIN BONIADI, ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST: Well, thank you so much for the important conversation. Reza, it's good to see you. As you reiterated
today, you have consistently affirmed your commitment to democracy. It's specifically a tolerant, secular democracy. A lot of people, a lot of
Iranians look to you because of your commitment to this over decades, and particularly because of your commitment to building institutional democracy
and cultural democracy, really democracy that covers all of culture in Iran.
And the truth is that the brutality of the regime has caused deep wounds, and Iranians are rightfully filled with disdain, and many seek vengeance
even. But history has shown us that any kind of revolution fueled by anger often results in the same injustices that we're trying to break away from.
My question to you is, how do you -- how do we collectively channel that anger so that we're building democratic institutions and reconciliation,
and focusing on the rule of law, and really focusing not only on bringing down tyranny, but creating liberty?
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
PAHLAVI: Well, we had so many conversations, you and I, over the years, and I salute your commitment where you had to step away from your career
and engage with advocacy for human rights, and your speech at the U.N. and other venues.
Exactly. We need to show that there's a culture that is needed there. The instruments of democracy are not alone by themselves, even if you have the
best constitution. If culturally we don't adopt pluralism and tolerance as part of our behavior, and civility should be the way to go as opposed to
revenge and settling of accounts, of course we need to encourage that.
You know how many times I've explained my call for ultimately national reconciliation, how many times we spoke about amnesty, but we cannot deny
the Iranian people their day in court, grieving mothers, martyrs, people who have died by this repression. We cannot escape the need for justice,
which is why a lot of the efforts is led by people who are experts in the field.
We have many lawyers that are working on that, you know, fact-finding about what happened, truth and reconciliation, transitional justice, because all
of this plays into giving people closure without having to resort to vengeance. That's very important.
So, the more we equip our society, and a lot of it is civil society's role, a lot of it has to be with our activists, with our experts, I think it
could help us institutionalize and have the instances that protects us as a society, as a nation, from all the possible deviation.
We need to adopt all possible processes that have proven to be successful in such transition that happen in other countries, post-collapse of very
totalitarian and ruthless regimes, whether it was South Africa, whether it was the Soviet Union or many other instances, there are so many models to
implement or emulate.
But most importantly is to make sure that we in fact show how different we are than this regime, because if we start acting like them, then what's the
difference? And I'm glad to have people such as yourself helping out in this, and we need to encourage more people to weigh in.
Look, a lot of us have lived in free societies for the past four decades, at least I have, and there are a lot of people inside Iran who were not
even born at the time of the revolution. Today's Gen Z in Iran is very much on par with this. In fact, most of what I hear from inside Iran is that
there may be some issues that you hear outside that we're not even concerned with.
We are all very united, but we need help. We need to make sure that we are not alone in this, that there is a reinforcement factor. That's where
people who are wise enough to understand that we have to materially and structurally help the nation have to understand that before we agree on
disagreeing, we have to agree on what we all are in common in need of.
So, it's really a national challenge, if you will. I think this national challenge transcends political affiliation, transcends particular, how can
I say, tendencies. It doesn't matter if you're a socialist or conservative. It shouldn't matter if you're a republican or a monarchist. It should
matter that we all believe in democracy at the end, and the rule of law, and the protection under that law. That's the way we will put an end to
discrimination, whether it's against women, ethnic groups, religious minorities and everything else between weak.
[13:20:00]
I believe we can do that because we have learned it the hard way to appreciate these values. And we have today this opportunity to do it.
AMANPOUR: OK.
PAHLAVI: So, I'm encouraging activists. I'm encouraging journalists. I'm encouraging our political prisoners. I'm encouraging our civil society. And
those of us who have more freedom to speak where people inside don't have, have the first job of making sure that we are their voice and we support
them. That's how it starts. And hopefully we'll end it in Iran itself.
AMANPOUR: All right. Reza Pahlavi, thank you very much indeed.
PAHLAVI: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And now, we are going to -- please, feel free. Now, we're going to -- now, we're going to -- thank you very much.
PAHLAVI: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Feel free to stay for the rest. We've got a panel.
PAHLAVI: I've just --
AMANPOUR: Yes, please. And let me introduce our panel. Yes. OK. May I invite Senator Lindsey Graham? Where would he sit? And Karim Sadjadpour.
And also, Roberta Metsola. Oh, there you are. I was looking straight at you. Hi, please take a seat. Hello, Senator. Take a seat.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): That's not my name, but --
AMANPOUR: Yes, I know it's not. Give it to me. I'll take it away. So, Senator Lindsey Graham, U.S. Senate Republican, longtime foreign policy
player. Karim Sadjadpour, senior fellow Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Roberta Metsola, president of the European
Parliament.
Senator, can I turn to you first? Because this is something that the Iran situation is front and center of this current administration.
Guys, thank you very much. Thank you.
You are very pleased to see President Trump promise the Iranian protesters the help that that they were calling for and say help is on the way. And it
seems like you're consistently reminding the president of what he promised. You wrote on Monday, President Trump said, keep protesting. Help is on the
way. He will be on the right side of history. I believe him to be a man of his word. On Tuesday, you sort of doubled down if this regime --
GRAHAM: Today. It was today. What day is it today?
AMANPOUR: Today is some other day.
GRAHAM: OK. Good.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I think it's Friday or Saturday. In any event, you've been very consistent. Do you believe this? And do you believe that President
Trump should do what he said he would do?
GRAHAM: Here's what I believe. They're the weakest they've been since 1979. It is a regime with American blood on its hand. It's a great
disruptor of the region. It's a religious theocracy that if they could get a nuclear weapon, they would use it to advance their religious goals, which
are three, purify Islam, destroy the Jewish state and come after us.
Hitler wrote a book he wanted to kill all the Jews. Nobody believed him. I believe the ayatollah and his regime, not the Iranian people, are religious
fanatics, religious Nazis. Hitler wanted a master race. They want to master religion. So, why did I mention that? There's no negotiating with these
people, in my view. They're hell bent on enacting an agenda based on religion that teaches them to lie, teaches them to destroy in the name of
God.
So, President Trump said something that's going to be the best thing he ever said or maybe the worst thing he ever said when asked, what should the
protesters do? Keep protesting. Now, that came from a man who genuinely believed that. That wasn't a calculated response. Ronald Reagan went to the
Berlin Wall and we still talk about it. He didn't say, do you mind lowering it? He said, tear it down. He was clear. He was concise.
So, President Trump gave an answer. Keep protesting. Help is on the way. And a couple of days later, he said, it's time for new leadership in Iran
because the ayatollah and his crowd, they're bad guys. They're terrible guys. You put all three of those statements together. Then what do you
have? You have a president standing with the people. What do the people want? They want the oppression to end. They want to start over with a new
Iran. So, here's what I would say.
AMANPOUR: Are you backing regime change?
GRAHAM: Yes, I have. Totally. If you're not, you're crazy.
AMANPOUR: Military regime change?
GRAHAM: Yes, yes. I'm backing the people who want a country they can live in without having their daughter killed because she --
AMANPOUR: But I'm trying to figure out, because there's a huge flotilla in the Arabian Sea that President Trump is using as a negotiating tactic. He's
just said, as you heard me say, that he would prefer negotiating.
GRAHAM: I prefer negotiation too. Let me finish my thought.
AMANPOUR: OK.
GRAHAM: If we back out now, it'll be the biggest mistake we've made, far worse than the Syrian red line, far worse than Afghanistan. You can't say,
keep protesting. We got your back. Help is on the way, and nothing happened.
[13:25:00]
That's why I'm confident that President Trump will get an outcome consistent with those three statements through diplomacy or military force.
And let me just say this. Any deal about Iran has to come to the Senate. I'm not going to bless a bad deal. They're not out in the street because of
limiting the nuclear ambitions, the ayatollah. They're out in the street because life is miserable. People can't have a decent quality of life. They
live in fear. And most Iranians have had it. They'd like a new start the day after.
AMANPOUR: OK.
GRAHAM: Well, if the Ayatollah goes down, we'll work on the day after. I think we'll have a better chance of having friends with the protesters than
the ayatollah.
Here's the day after I worry the most about. The day after we blinked. The day after we made promises that we didn't keep, we made assurances that
fell short. That day after day after is generational damage. Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, they don't go away. They come back stronger. The
Arabs go back into their corner and the people who've been protesting will be systematically destroyed. The day after, if we get it right, the
mothership of terrorism goes down. Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah, they've lost their biggest benefactor. Saudi Israel is the most likely outcome.
So, I'll end with this. I've never seen a more consequential time in history as right now. If we can take this regime down through the people,
their desires, not ours, and replace it with a friend, not a foe, be the biggest change in a thousand years. If we don't get it right and we blink,
it'll be the biggest change in a thousand years in the wrong way.
AMANPOUR: OK, Senator. And as president of the European Parliament, does the E.U. believe in these fighting words? You've just designated the IRGC
as a terrorist organization. Iran has responded, saying it would cause, you know, consider, you know, all your armies terrorists. But it marks a shift
for Europe. Where does Europe stand at this crucial moment?
ROBERTA METSOLA, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: We were mentioning timelines before. It's been 47 years, and that's as long as I've been
alive, and that's as long as we've been asking for freedom in Iran.
Now, what we saw in the beginning of the year, and that was the turning point, and for us in the European Parliament, it could have happened much
earlier. Ever since the protests we saw, 22, 23, when we saw the killings. But now, everybody's on the street asking for freedom. And that is the
departing point of everything we should do. And that is why we pushed across the board.
There is very few things European Parliament can align on or find unanimity on, but this was one of them, that if we are going to stand for the freedom
in Iran that we need to start, then we need to start by designating the IRGC as a terrorist organization. We needed all the European Union
governments to accept. And they did. All 27 of them.
I didn't think that would happen a few weeks ago, but it did. Because that is the moment where you had the German chancellor who said this is a regime
that's on its last legs. When we see that this is a regime that has been not only oppressing its population, but sowing by its own instability in
the whole region. And that is what we need to make sure.
Senator Graham was talking that this is the red line we can't go beyond. That's the line that we can't go back on, where we can go back to even
more, let's say, courage, confidence that Hezbollah or Hamas would get. And that would be the worst problem we could have as a European Union as well,
because we're pretty close to that.
AMANPOUR: Karim Sadjadpour, you're a close student of the Iranian situation and you are in Washington, so you know a little bit about what
senators and others, the analysts and the experts, the policymakers are doing. President Trump, I think, evoked the Venezuela method recently. Now,
to me, the Venezuela method decapitates the leader and leaves the regime in. How did you read it?
KARIM SADJADPOUR, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: I think, Christiane, that virtually everyone in Washington,
including President Trump, if they could push a button and get rid of the Iranian regime, they absolutely would. What I think the Trump
administration worries about is some of the fallout we saw in the aftermath of the Iraq war or Libya. And, you know, Iran is a different country than
those places.
But, you know, in my view, to understand this administration, probably a psychology degree is more valuable than a political science degree. And if
we're trying to get inside the head of the president's --
GRAHAM: A good golf swing.
SADJADPOUR: A good golf swing as well, which Senator Graham sure has. But on three major occasions, this president gambled on Iran. In 2018, he left
the nuclear deal. In 2020, he assassinated Qasem Soleimani. Last summer, he dropped 14 bunker busters on Iran's nuclear program. A lot of his own aides
recommended against those policies. He feels that each of them were vindicated. And for that reason, I think he's much more likely to act than
we are to reach a nuclear deal.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Senator, do you think it would be --
GRAHAM: Who are you?
AMANPOUR: Do you think it would be a success or acceptable to get rid of the leadership, a la Venezuela, but do a deal with the people who are in
power? Trump is like that.
GRAHAM: Right.
AMANPOUR: He does a deal with those people -- he abandoned the Venezuelan human rights leader who won a nuclear -- sorry, nuclear -- a Nobel Peace
Prize. What are the Iranian Democrats meant to shield?
GRAHAM: Well, he believes that he's not the force to bring the country together. He believes that there are groups there that are going to go down
a different road. If you're in charge of Venezuela now and you want to keep doing what Maduro did, you're an idiot. You're either going to get killed
or go to jail.
So, Iraq, we take everybody out. That didn't work well. Here's what you need to understand. The likelihood of getting worse than the ayatollah in
Iran is pretty low, don't you think, Crown Prince? I don't think most people are out in the streets saying, now, we should be harder on us. Most
people out in the streets said, I'm tired of living this way, I'm tired of being oppressed, I'm tired of having no money, I want a better country, I
want my country back, I want this guy to go.
The risk associated with a regime change is real. We have troops in the region, they have ballistic missiles. But we're still the United States.
They have F-14s, a lot has changed since Top Gun 1. We have an incredible capability. I know who would win a conflict. How do you bring this regime
down? I think you do go after the oppressors. Kill the ones who kill the people.
Their economy is in tatters. They've been beaten pretty badly. They're as weak as they can be, but they're still dangerous. Compare that to doing
nothing. So, these are your choices. You either execute a plan, using military capability of the United States with Israel, working with people
on the ground, to bring the ayatollah's regime down, or you do nothing but have talked.
If the ayatollah's still standing, Christiane, when this is all over, it will be a disaster of generational proportions. He stood down the West. He
did it yet again. And all the people who were on the fence will slowly be rounded up and killed over the coming years in Iran. Hezbollah, Hamas, and
the Houthis will get stronger, not weaker. The Arabs will continue to go back to their corner.
I'm going to Israel, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia next week. Here's the message. If we can get it through diplomacy, fine, but we've had it with
this regime. Think big. The people are the difference. When we started this debate, Crown Prince, the people had not spoken. They've spoken with their
lives. How much more can they speak? They've been shot down in the street like dogs. These are the people you want to help. These are the people that
will change history.
So, what I'm going to tell anybody that will listen in the Mideast, don't let this moment pass. Be smart, but don't be locked down with fear. And as
to MBS and MBZ, knock it off, Saudi Arabia. Knock it off. I'm tired of this crap. MBZ is not a Zionist, and you're emboldening Iran by having this
conflict. Now, I know they've got differences in Yemen and they've got differences in Sudan, but we've got to think big picture.
To any leader in the region that doesn't understand you're on the verge of history, history will judge you poorly because you are.
AMANPOUR: Senator, they've been telling the president not to do this. They don't want another war. They don't want another military intervention. How
should we read that? You tell me.
GRAHAM: Have you ever been in the Mideast?
AMANPOUR: I have, yes, sir. My whole career.
GRAHAM: They say one thing, they do another. Here's what I want.
METSOLA: She grew up there.
GRAHAM: Yes, I want them to step up to the plate because Iran wants three things to purify Islam. Sunni Islam will go if they're up to the ayatollah.
They want to destroy Islam. They want to kill us. We've got a lot in common here.
AMANPOUR: OK.
METSOLA: On that note.
AMANPOUR: On that note, what about the E.U.? Because this really is fighting talk, OK? Do you prefer a negotiation over the nuclear issue or do
you prefer whatever it takes, including military intervention, for the end of the regime?
METSOLA: First of all, I've been asked this question, like, would you go back in time and redo what was done in terms of nuclear discussions? I
think it would be wrong for us to go back and say what was done right, what was done wrong.
The situation we are in now is that the time for this regime needs to end. How does it end? Are we talking about politically anointing? Are we talking
about allowing for structures and frameworks to be created for the Iranian people to choose for themselves who should lead them? Who should be the one
that takes them into the democracy that we've been working on for so many years?
[13:35:00]
Now, the way we see it and how we've been looking at it, and this is by us talking to communities in our countries, by us trying to make sure that
when there was a technology blackout they could not get contacted, that's where the European Union comes in, we're the number one donors of
humanitarian aid, into making sure that we can help the people on the ground in order for a solution to be found.
Now, would we prefer the diplomatic solution? I want to perhaps give a little bit of a sideline. I would certainly not do what was done this week
by sending a congratulatory message to the regime saying happy anniversary and then call it routine diplomacy. I think the time for routine diplomacy
is over.
AMANPOUR: Actually, we're (INAUDIBLE).
METSOLA: Well, I'll tell you after, at the end of the program. But, you know, I think it's really a situation where we, in the democratic world,
coming together and say, how are we going to help Iranians be free? The way we do it is by the European Union, by Europe, the United States aligning on
what they're going to do about a regime that has been oppressing our population for 47 years. And there, you will find -- and the Senate -- I
mentioned the Senate, I work with Congress a lot, you will find full alignment.
GRAHAM: Sorry.
METSOLA: No, no, it's a good thing. We like working with Congress. I think my colleague, Mike Johnson, has a slightly more difficult job than me to
create majorities, but he does that and I have to do the same. But that is where you can find, in all this discussion in Munich, where a lot is being
concentrated on the E.U. and U.S. relationship, on this, there's alignment. And I think that should come out of this conference as well.
AMANPOUR: Just to keep us in the realm of current reality, the regime is still there. It has its methods, its state. Give us just a little bit of a
reality check on what kind of support, if any, it still has, how it maintains. We know about the violence. We know about the repression. We've
seen what happened when all these people came out and how they were so brutally killed, injured, detained, et cetera. But there is a structure and
their raison d'etre has been regime survival for 47 years. How do you see it now and in the next -- you know, in the next few weeks and months?
SADJADPOUR: They say about dictatorships, Christiane, that they always kill the most at the beginning and at the end. And I think we have entered
the concluding era of the Islamic Republic, like the Soviet Union in the late 1980s. I describe them as a zombie regime, dying ideology, dying
leader, dying economy, dying legitimacy. They still do have lethal force.
And I think what's going to be key to their survival is the unity of their security forces. They still have 150,000 plus revolutionary guardsmen. And
I think -- I would guess it has at most 15 percent popular support. And that's why your previous conversation was so critical, because 15 percent
who are united can continue to kill en masse if the 80, 85 percent remain divided.
AMANPOUR: And I know Reza Pahlavi is sitting in the audience, but I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you, do you put your support behind Reza
Pahlavi? Are you ready to say he is the person that the United States is -- or you yourself, I don't know whether you speak on behalf of the United
States, but as a senior Senate Republican?
GRAHAM: No, because that's not my job. I've been with him on every cable TV show known to man. I'm very impressed with the way he can articulate
what's at stake. I'm sure he'll have a prominent role in Iran. Don't make it too hard. All we can do is help Iran have a chance to be free. If they
screw it up, they screw it up. I'd rather give them a chance than not, because I know what I'm getting with the ayatollah.
The difference is Trump, and he'll love hearing that, sort of. He's done something to the president. He picked the people over the regime. We had
the JCPOA, that didn't work. Everything we've done, Europe, America, we haven't, we've done a lousy job standing up for the Iranian people. You
know, Gaza, a lot of people protesting. Almost nobody's protesting for the Iranian people.
But let me tell you what I think is going to happen here. I think Trump said three things that nobody else has said, and people are still fighting
and still encouraged because of the president. They're getting weaker. We put tariffs on their oil. You had a very good -- it is a zombie regime. You
can't do business with Iran normally anymore. 25 percent tariff you buy their oil.
[13:40:00]
So, it's going to collapse because the people have had it. And what happens next, I don't know. But I do know this. If we pull the plug on the people,
whatever problems associated with the day after, if the people win against the ayatollah, or a fraction of the problems associated with the ayatollah
killing his way out yet again, standing to murder another day, if you don't realize we're on the verge of history, you're missing a lot. We're talking
weeks, not months. And when we do this, if we do, we're starting and we're not stopping.
SADJADPOUR: Christiane, Iran should be a G20 nation. It has enormous human capital, second largest reserves of natural gas, third largest reserves of
oil, one of the oldest continuously inhabited civilizations. But as long as this regime is in power, their ideology, their organizing principle is
death to America, death to Israel. It's not even long-lived Palestine, it's death to Israel, and it's not long-lived Iran.
And so, I think I'm very happy to hear that the Europeans have reached a similar conclusion, that this is a regime which is incapable of reform,
it's incapable of changing its ideology. And I do think for both Europe and the United States, a government in Iran that follows its own national
interests would be a great game-changer, geopolitical game-changer.
AMANPOUR: Final thought?
METSOLA: I mean, you mentioned the 15 percent. I think we can focus on the 85 percent that want change and that want freedom and that want to be able
to decide with dignity what happens to their country. And that's what needs to unite all of us in not letting down all those thousands every day in the
streets since the beginning of the year who have said that they have finally had enough.
We let the people who protested in '22 and '23 down. We could have given a lot of speeches. We did not go the full way that we needed to go. We still
let representatives of the IRGC and members of their families enjoy their time in Europe. You know, they would use their holidays to spend in our
cities and towns. We said stop to that. But we can't stop there. We will need to send the message to those protesting every day who are risking
their lives, who are ready to die for their country, that we stand with them. That is the only thing that we can do to save our credibility. If we
don't --
AMANPOUR: Can I just give the final word to Reza Pahlavi?
GRAHAM: Can I just say one thing before the final word?
AMANPOUR: Yes. Yes. No, this isn't the final word. You'll get the final word.
GRAHAM: OK.
AMANPOUR: I mean, I know.
PAHLAVI: Let me just say that what the senator said is absolutely the correct position, because I have never asked for any endorsement, personal
endorsement, nor is it the right thing to do. What I do expect world democracies to stand for is the ballot box and the result of the ballot box
in Iran. That's what we are hoping for, and that's why we need your solidarity.
AMANPOUR: You know what, that's a great question that I'm going to put you on -- I'm going to put you on the spot, Senator, and ask you a question
about American elections. There are --
GRAHAM: We're going to have them.
AMANPOUR: Are you sure?
GRAHAM: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Are you sure that President Trump is going to --
GRAHAM: The fact you asked me that is really offensive, but, yes, we're going to have them.
AMANPOUR: OK. But you know why, because they've already --
GRAHAM: Oh, I don't know why.
AMANPOUR: OK, good. Well, people are going to be very --
GRAHAM: I don't know why anybody would ask me that, quite frankly, because you're missing a lot that's going on. I like you. Let's talk about --
AMANPOUR: But you can convince everybody. You can assure Americans and others that it will go as usual.
GRAHAM: I can assure that only people worried about us not having elections, you can put it in a phone booth.
AMANPOUR: OK.
GRAHAM: We're going to have an election.
AMANPOUR: Good. Glad to hear it.
GRAHAM: And you know what? Republicans could win, but we've got to up our game. Right now, it looks like we'll lose the House, maybe keep the Senate.
Then in '28, we'll have another election, and we'll have another one and another one and another one. God willing.
Now, here's what -- go back in time. If you could go back in time to Munich, what would you have done differently? You wouldn't have done the
deal, peace in our time. I think about this a lot. I think the likelihood of getting peace in our time with the Ayatollah is about the same as
Hitler, because he's a religious Nazi, and the other guy was a wanted master race.
You can't accommodate Putin because he wants all of Ukraine. You might work a deal with China, but you've got to know who your adversary is. Your
adversary is a religious fanatic that dying is first prize. So, if I could go back in time, I'd tell people -- Hitler actually meant it. He wrote a
book, "Let's Kill All the Jews." Every day they say things that they mean.
I believe the ayatollah, time has come, because what he's delivered for the Iranian people, and all we need is the courage of our convictions. I cannot
promise you exactly what the day after will be, but if somebody had killed Hitler in 1935, it would have probably been better.
[13:45:00]
If this regime falls, the day after has promise. If it stays in place, the day after is going to generationally destroy the Mideast, and we'll be
haunted by this for generations to come, and they will be talking about us in a very bad way.
AMANPOUR: On that rousing note, Senator Lindsey Graham, Karim Sadjadpour, and Roberta Metsola, and Reza Pahlavi, thank you very much indeed for this
invigorating conversation.
GRAHAM: Thank you. It was really good. Thank you.
METSOLA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
GRAHAM: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. Take care.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. welcome back. You were just watching Christiane Amanpour's interview with the son of the last Shah of
Iran, Reza Pahlavi. And an invigorating, as Christiane described, really was fascinating panel discussion on the future of Iran at the Munich
Security Conference, live from New York.
Hello, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Zain Asher. You are watching a special edition of "One World." Here are some of the headlines we are watching for
you this hour.
Germany's chancellor says the rules-based international order no longer exists. Speaking at the opening of the annual security conference in
Munich, Friedrich Merz warned that even the U.S. wasn't powerful enough to go it alone. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio will address delegates
tomorrow.
GOLODRYGA: A landslide victory has put Bangladesh's opposition party back in power after nearly two decades. The leader of the Bangladesh Nationalist
Party, Tarique Rahman, is now set to become prime minister. It's a position his mother once held. Rahman has his work to cut out. He has to restore
political stability after months of political unrest.
ASHER: And police in Canada have confirmed the names of the six children and two adults killed Thursday in one of the country's worst mass shootings
in recent history. Investigators say an 18-year-old woman fatally shot her mother and stepbrother at home with an open fire inside a school in Tumbler
Ridge, British Columbia.
GOLODRYGA: London's High Court has ruled that a government ban on the activist group Palestine Action is unlawful, though the ban will remain in
place for now as the British government moves to appeal the decision. Britain's interior ministry had argued that the group's escalating actions
amounted to terrorism. Critics called the ban government overreach.
[13:50:00]
ASHER: A bitterly divided Washington and a partial U.S. government shutdown just hours away after Congress failed to pass a funding bill for
the Department of Homeland Security, Democrats are delaying funds amid the shooting deaths of two American citizens in Minneapolis, Renee Good and
Alex Pretti. Lawmakers want to see changes to the way agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement operate. And they are nowhere near a
resolution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Funding for ICE and the Department of Homeland Security should not move forward in the absence of dramatic
changes that are bold, meaningful and transformational. Period. Full stop. That's the House Democratic Caucus' position and that's the Senate
Democratic Caucus' position.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: It seems to me the appearance here is that some Democrats, House and Senate, want a government
shutdown. They want to impose more pain on the American people. For what? I have no idea. The ICE funding is already done for the entirety of the Trump
administration. So, they're not affecting that in any way. What they're going to do is shut down FEMA, Coast Guard, TSA and things that hurt real
people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Lawmakers are now on an 11-day recess with DHS funding set to run out in about 11 hours' time. We spoke earlier with former governor of
Arkansas, Asa Hutchinson, and CNN political commentator Karen Finney. Here's some of that discussion.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON (R-AR): It will take a while because both sides believe they have moral high ground. You have the Democrats wanting reduced
enforcement of ICE and you want the administration to be able to continue to enforce our immigration laws. Both sides are totally different on that
point.
In terms of the impact on the elections, you know, Trump strength is the economy, Republican strength is the economy and immigration enforcement.
But they've lost ground on that. One because of the affordability issue and inflation, which is making progress. But the other one is what happened in
Minnesota is perceived as going too far in an inhumane way on the immigration enforcement.
And so, perhaps they could reach a compromise that both will be given something. But I think it's going to take a while because the pressure
points are not there yet. With 96 percent of the federal government being funded, only a small part is going to pay the price for the shutdown.
ASHER: Karen, let me bring you in. I do want to sort of just talk specifically about how Democrats should be fighting back based on and
comparing that to how they are currently fighting back. And obviously, there have been some tangible things that Democrats have done. Obviously,
we're just talking about this partial government shutdown, delaying DHS funding. But as we all know and as we've talked about, you know, it's ICE
and CBP are actually adequately funded. That is the irony in all of this, that it's more of a symbolic gesture here.
And then you've got Chuck Schumer essentially sponsoring a bill that limits or gets rid of the statute of limitations for sex abuse survivors in
response to the Epstein files. But again, are Senate Republicans going to necessarily sign up on that? So, just give us your take on the sort of
muted effects of some of the ways in which Democrats have been fighting back here.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. Well, look, I do want to point out that one of the things -- actually, both on the Epstein files and
frankly, with what's happened in Minnesota and ICE, it's not just Democrats. Republican members of Congress are hearing from their
constituents as well, who are terribly alarmed, particularly when we see American citizens being shot and killed, but also concerns of just in
general, that this is -- you know, these very aggressive tactics.
And so, for Democrats, they are using the leverage that they have, which is to negotiate and to try to hold the line here on these specific elements.
And look, what they're really asking for is something that a majority of Americans actually agree with. And that is just accountability that people
should not be wearing masks. They should have to identify themselves. They should actually have a judicial warrant, meaning you've got to, you know,
raise the bar for just storming into people's homes. And so, they're going to continue to press that.
I'd like to see them talk more about the measures that they're fighting for, because, again, the polling that I've seen and the focus group work
that I've seen, people agree with that. And so, I think they need to amp up that conversation.
And then with regard to the Epstein survivors, I mean, who among us is going to disagree that these women don't deserve more time to try to fight
their case? Because we know early on, when back in the early 2000s, when they were trying to get the federal government or law enforcement to pay
attention, they were pushed off. And so, they -- you know, they, like other survivors at times, need more time to be able to make their case and make
sure that it's prosecuted fairly.
[13:55:00]
So, look, I think and again, that's another issue where Republicans, many Republicans also agree and have been hearing from their constituents. So,
the leverage point is really the American people and using that to continue to put the pressure on Republicans to come to the table and negotiate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: And that was former Governor of Arkansas Asa Hutchinson and CNN political commentator Karen Finney, who also spoke earlier with us.
GOLODRYGA: And finally, this hour, Peru's capital city is celebrating Valentine's Day a couple of days early with one big wedding ceremony.
ASHER: Yes. Lima held its first collective civil wedding of the year on Thursday. More than 100 couples tied the knot at a magic circuit of water.
That's a popular tourist attraction there.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Wishing them all the best. Happy Valentine's Day to you, my friend, and to all of you at home. That does it for "One World" today.
I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: I'm Zain Asher. I appreciate you watching. Isa Soares Tonight is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
