Return to Transcripts main page

Quest Means Business

Day of Mourning in Netherlands; Flight Path Controversy; Emirates CEO Calls for Air Safety Summit; Securing the Skies; Violence in Ukraine

Aired July 23, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICHARD QUEST, HOST: Side by side, the bodies were laid. Shoulder to shoulder, a nation stood. United in grief, millions of people around the

world mourn for those lost on Flight MH17.

Good evening, I'm Richard Quest in New York. The Netherlands today began receiving the victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, holding a

solemn ceremony and memorial service.

In tonight's program, you're going to hear Emirates chief executive Tim Clark tell me that this disaster changed everything. Sir Tim is

calling for an airline summit to rethink the threats posed by regional conflicts.

And I'm joined by the British Pilots Union, who says leadership is urgently needed.

The somber sound of a lone bugler marking a national day of mourning in the Netherlands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(LONE BUGLE PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: The nation was united in a moment of grief for the victims as the first 40 coffins arrived at Eindhoven military base. The world

watched, and the Netherlands paused for a moment of silence.

(SILENCE)

QUEST: As the coffins left the base and made their way to a military camp in Hilversum, thousands of people lined the roads, tens of thousands.

They paid their respects. They applauded the returning victims as they were driven through the Dutch countryside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Some cried, some applauded, most simply stood with their heads bowed.

So tonight, there is finally a moment of dignity for a few of the victims of the flight. The first coffins are at the military base and have

been taken for identification. All in all, it was an exceptional day, an emotional day, for the country that lost 193 people in last week's tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(LONE BUGLE PLAYING)

(HELICOPTER ROTORS)

(APPLAUSE FOR MOTORCADE)

(STRINGED INSTRUMENT)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): Making flowers out of fate.

(APPLAUSE FOR MOTORCADE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: And the awful part about the days' proceedings is that this is only the first of 40 -- the first 40 coffins which have arrived. There

were 298 people onboard the aircraft. We know of only 200, perhaps, whose remains have been recovered, and there are many more coffins, many more

funeral corteges, and many more arrivals of sadness at Eindhoven in the days and weeks ahead.

So, as the day progressed with the misery and sadness and despair, one of our correspondents, Erin McLaughlin was there. She's now outside the

camp at Hilversum. Erin, we've seen the pictures, we've heard the words, now please tell me, what was it like to be there?

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Richard, during the course of someone's life, they inevitably lose someone close to

them, and that sense of grief, that sense of mourning, that sense of loss, I saw on the faces of many people that were here outside this military base

in Hilversum today.

And it took me back to a time in my own life when I felt that way as well. And as a journalist, you couldn't help but grieve alongside them.

To see the family of one 19-year-old boy named Quinn, who was onboard MH17, they were standing just outside those gates, watching as each casket was

driven by, not knowing if Quinn was in one of those hearses.

The look of grief on their faces, they were holding each other, they were crying, that sense of loss. This community is reeling. There's

confusion, there's shock, and there's most of all this tremendous sense of sadness.

Now, I was speaking to one grandmother who lost two grandsons to MH17, and she looked at me and she said, "I've lost so much. We've all lost so

much. But I feel as though I've lost myself." And I think that's as close as it gets to being able to put into words what it must feel like to be a

family member of a victim tonight. Richard?

QUEST: The Dutch are notoriously stoic, national mourning as such is not part of the vocabulary. So, to see this country come together -- and

it's important to remember in this, Erin, you've only seen the first 40 here. There are many more to come. How will you all manage it?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I think that very much remains to be seen, Richard. It has to be said, this is the first national day of mourning this country

has seen since 1963. And you're right, they are traditionally stoic and reserved. But we've seen outpourings of grief throughout the country,

outside Amsterdam Schiphol Airport --

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right. Erin --

MCLAUGHLIN: -- just meters away from where the passengers checked in for MH17. Yes?

QUEST: I see behind you, if you just take one step to -- away, I see behind you, there are the flowers, there are the notes, there are the

messages that people have been leaving. What sort of things -- I mean, obviously, they're in Dutch. What sort of things are they saying?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, there's one note in particular that I thought was incredibly touching, Richard. It's actually outside the makeshift memorial

at Schiphol Airport, in which it reads, "Our hearts go out for those who yearn for their loved ones." And it asks, "Why? Why? Why?" this tragedy

has happened, and asking for prayers, and also saying that they are praying for those onboard.

And those are really sort of the outpouring of grief, as I was saying, that we're seeing, not just at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, but here outside

the military base in Hilversum, at the local soccer club not far from here, a makeshift memorial. There's a note from a little boy who lost his friend

to MH17, and it said, "You will always be in our hearts forever."

And those are sort of the messages that people are trying to give and convey of their emotions tonight, Richard.

QUEST: Erin McLaughlin at the camp in Hilversum, we thank you. Amid the mourning, there is, of course, calls, now, for action. Because the

steps being taken to prevent similar tragedies in the future is very much on the minds of airline chief execs. We're going to look at the future

when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: -- pause to pay respects to the victims, the country's government is working to prevent such a tragedy ever happening again. It

is the Dutch Safety Board, the main regulator, authority, which has taken charge of the investigation into what happened. It will also, and

crucially, look at he decision-making processes and procedures used that will decide where flights go and what determines what's safe and what's

not.

Let's put this in perspective. Just today, two -- in Ukraine, two military jets have been shot down in the eastern part of the country. And

in Israel, the US Federal Aviation Administration over here has extended its ban on US carriers flying to Tel Aviv for a further 24 hours.

Meanwhile, of course, the Europeans have said that they are also strongly recommending airlines don't fly to Israel.

What we have, as you can look, this is the air traffic movements across the Atlantic. It shows you the vast amount of travel and aviation

that goes on. What we have, of course, is classically, a convergence of events from MH17 to what's happening in Israel. Let me show you.

Air travel is a global industry, and the governance is anything but. In the wake of what's happened, fingers are pointing at ICAO. You have

ICAO, which is the UN body with governments, and IATA, which is the industry representatives for the airlines.

Let me be clear: ICAO, which has the responsibility, has declined interview requests. But this is the mess, the sorry mess, that exists.

ICAO says that it's not responsible -- it says it's not responsible -- for banning air travel. It says that's up to national government.

So, that's up to national government, in which case you have the FAA, which has banned for Israel, but you have the Ukrainians, which didn't ban

for eastern Ukraine, you have EASA, which now says it's strongly recommending against travel to Ben Gurion, and you have euro control.

But right in the middle, of course -- let me get rid of these and put this here -- you have the Israelis who say it's safe to fly to Israel. In

other words, you have a complete and utter difference of opinion, and you can see that again when you come over and look at the airlines.

You have Malaysia, which now says it will not fly to any of these places. You have Delta, that says it won't fly to Israel. You have

Lufthansa that says it won't fly to Israel. But you have British Airways saying that it will continue to fly to Israel.

For you and me as the traveling public, it is a nightmare to make sense of this regulatory soup and this airline mismatch, which is why the

chief executive of Emirates, Sir Tim Clark, believes the airlines need to rethink the way they do this, along with the regulators, and he's calling

for a summit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM CLARK, CEO, EMIRATES: Let's say that up until Thursday of last week the protocols and the understandings, the procedures that were in

place, the airline community obviously believed to be safe and secure in the light of the information that they held and the risk assessments that

they made.

The downing of this jet by a surface-to-air missile has changed all of that, in my opinion. And by that I mean the amount of information that

perhaps others knew about but didn't share in the community that were stakeholders in all of this, needs to be assessed, evaluated.

And perhaps in the future, when there are conflicts that are escalating not necessarily in their geographical spread, because we

obviously look at that very carefully in the airline community. But in this particular place, the ordinance that was deployed is a game changer.

In other words, when Malaysian thought that they were flying above the restricted air space at 32,000 feet safely, comfortably, without an

concerns about actions and yet, there was ordinance on the ground that could well --

QUEST: Right.

CLARK: -- pass through that particular altitude, up to 59,000 feet is the capability, seemingly, of some of these missiles.

So, was that known about in advance? Did others -- other entities have information about that? Should they have been passed to the

regulators of the countries that operate these carriers they're domiciled in, in this case, Malaysia.

QUEST: Right. Do --

CLARK: Go on.

QUEST: Do you believe there should now be some form of conference. I see it quoted as a "summit," that might be putting it a little grandly, but

do you now believe that ICAO, IATA, there needs to be a meeting to discuss the way in which these issues are handled?

CLARK: Well, that's a statement I made last week, and I believe that we cannot -- say, doing nothing is not going to be an option now. We

really have to assess, now, what is the way forward with regard to this. There are many areas of conflict on the planet today, and they are growing

in numbers and scale. There is a degree of contagion, and the international airline community is trying to make its way across these

areas of conflict.

Now, I suggested it was IATA, ICAO simply because these are the first entities involved with civil aviation that spring to mind. But in the end,

the information that flows into the state apparatus of the regulators of the countries in which these airlines are domiciled are probably purer and

more sanitized than the airline community will receive itself, even though we have our own risk assessment.

QUEST: Right.

CLARK: And it is that that I really want addressed at some kind of gathering of like-minded airlines and stakeholders to see how it is -- it's

not going to be easy, Richard, but it's something that, in my view, we have to recognize this has been a catastrophe for everybody, not the least of

which, this terrible, terrible situation it places the families and kith and kin of all this downed airliner.

QUEST: But we have a situation at the moment -- I mean, exactly to your point, for instance, many airlines, your own including, I believe, is

still flying over Iraq. Now, that is obviously your risk assessment people have made the assessment that it is safe to fly over. But does the MH17

example make you rethink that and make you have to literally rethink all your routes like that?

CLARK: The answer to that is yes, Richard, it does. You're right that we do fly through Iraqi air space, and like the Ukrainian air space,

but without, I hope, the ordinance that it's deemed to be safe to operate above a certain flight level.

But yes, it does cause us to look at what we need to be doing in the future, whether we should be routing more to the east or more to the west.

These routes can be done and can be taken. And at the moment, we're already doing it. Our access to the Lebanon is well out into the

Mediterranean, it doesn't go anywhere near, of course, Israeli air space, Syria air space, or anything like that.

We have take a number of measures. Tripoli we've had to stop flying. We had to stop flying to Peshawar when the Pakistan International Airlines

aircraft was shot at. We are constantly assessing what is going on.

But yes, when we are now over flying areas of conflict which could quite potentially become far more serious, far more acute in their actions,

and more contagious in their effect within the region, then we will be having to review all of that. That is a fact. But that is something that

we do as an airline constantly. Obviously, I don't think --

QUEST: Right, but you're comfortable with Iraq at the moment?

CLARK: I am comfortable at the moment, but as we speak, the risk assessment is going on within company. We have our own resources and

facilities to make those assessments. So long as we are satisfied that that is the case, we will continue to do so. But I'm hoping that things

will be manageable there.

QUEST: Right.

CLARK: The moment that they're under threat, we will not be going through that air space.

QUEST: Tim, final question. Your airline is now by one matrix the largest in the world. You are certainly one of the most-respected chief

executives of an airline in the world. Would you be one of those people now that will lead the call? Because obviously to get this sort of meeting

underway, to get a conference, to get a review, it requires people like ICAO, Tony Tyler at IATA. But it requires people like you.

CLARK: Yes, I'm aware of that, and I'm very much persuaded that if anything is going to be done about this, certainly from the airline

community, it has to be -- the lead has to be taken by the key players in the business. I guess I'm one of those simply by the scale of Emirates,

but there are others that have rung me, have supported the things that I have said with regard to what we need to.

And I'm hoping in the next few weeks in the aftermath of this tragedy that we can get around the table and at least start having some

brainstorming sessions to see what can be improved and how -- what the timeline of that would be, and how -- the motus operandi of a new protocol,

if that can be achieved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: That's Sir Tim Clark, the president -- the chief executive of Emirates. CNN's safety analyst, David Soucie joins me. David, you

constantly talk to me about the risk assessment.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Correct.

QUEST: The risk assessment. Again and again, you keep badgering me about it, and that's what, basically, Sir Tim Clark is saying. But they

are making risk assessments, but it's not working.

SOUCIE: Well, absolutely. The risk assessment is really three primary parts. One is the hazard identification. There's a hazard,

there's something -- a light falling on my head might be a hazard. But it's not a risk. A risk comes in when you've evaluated the probability of

occurrence and the impact if it does occur. Those are the two critical pieces.

What isn't in this mix is what is the hazard? They don't know.

QUEST: Exactly! Which makes this chart here -- you've got the FAA saying don't fly, the Israelis saying fly, EASA saying "strongly

recommended, don't fly." They didn't say don't fly. You've got these two not flying to Israel, these are no longer going over Syria. These are

still going over Israel.

SOUCIE: So, why is that different? What's the difference between this airline and these?

QUEST: I don't think --

SOUCIE: They don't know. It's the hazards. They don't recognize the hazard. And if they do have that information, then the risk assessment

comes in, and that risk assessment, as I said, is what's the probability of occurrence. That they don't know either.

QUEST: Whose responsibility is it to do that risk assessment? Is it those on the left, those on the right, or a bit of both?

SOUCIE: It's a bit of both. It's a bit of both, honestly, because they all -- this is a system, it's an air space system. The air space

system is only as good as its weakest link, and that is -- the weakest link is information-sharing, as he mentioned.

QUEST: Can you imagine -- he's going to have a meeting. If Sir Tim Clark wants a meeting, there will be one.

SOUCIE: Yes.

QUEST: Others will join in, of that I have no doubt.

SOUCIE: Yes.

QUEST: Can you see a way forward that they can rewrite protocols, particularly with sclerotic ICAO, who have, incidentally -- and I'm going

to say this absolutely again -- ICAO have refused or at least declined to be interviewed on this program. And they have a -- the secretary-general

or, indeed, the president of ICAO, I'm offering now a standing invitation, sir, for you to come and sit in this chair or talk to me via Skype.

SOUCIE: Very good. So, where we are with this is that now that we've talked about risk assessment -- and yes, I do see that it can change,

because it's happened before.

After the Airbus 300 where the tail came off of that one, then we had the Air Alaska accident, both of those accidents were related to

information-sharing within the manufacturing community. That was bad at the time. There were barriers to that. That was overcome. How -- go

ahead.

QUEST: Would you -- finally, would you accept what Sir Tim says is that MH17 has changed the rules and changed the way the industry must now

think?

SOUCIE: I think partly that, but also what's changed the rules is where these weapons are and the capability of these weapons. ICAO was

envisioned in 1940s. It's been a long time since then, and things have changed a lot. But could I go back just quickly to this manufacturing

issue?

QUEST: Of course.

SOUCIE: It was between Airbus and Boeing and other manufacturers who all played a part in this idea of the information sharing. They didn't

know what it was. So, Nick Sabatini, the associate administrator at the time, decided that he would give us a project.

So, it was commercial airplane certification process study, which identified these hazards, and they were overcome. We finally got through

it, and now, information is shared freely between these manufacturers. This can happen here too.

QUEST: It can. The question is whether it will. David, thank you very much --

SOUCIE: Hopefully, it will.

QUEST: Now, when we come back, we will be in Ukraine. Officials are still expressing greater concern over the security at the crash site. And

pro-Russian rebels are continuing to shoot planes from the sky. We'll be there after the break. This is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, good evening.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: There were two strikingly different scenes in parts of Ukraine on Thursday. In Kharkiv, some of the victims of Malaysia Airlines departed

for the Netherlands, that's one of the events that happened in the region.

Meanwhile -- and it's extraordinary to believe that whilst the rebels -- whilst the bodies are leaving Kharkiv, in the rebel-held Donetsk region

over here, the violence continues to rage. In stark opposition to how the remains have been treated in the days since the crash, as the victims have

begun leaving Ukraine, they received the dignified treatment in the Netherlands.

Russian -- pro-Russian rebels continued their assault on the skies. Two Ukrainian fighter jets were shot down, reportedly by shoulder-fired

missiles, and at the crash site after the crime comes the cover-up. The Australian prime minister has -- Tony Abbott says there's evidence of

tampering on an industrial scale.

Nick Paton Walsh is in Kharkiv and joins me now. Nick -- well, what a day. I mean, what an extraordinary day. And it is -- it beggars belief in

many ways, even with the futility and idiocy of war, that they're still shooting down planes while dead bodies are being transported.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly. But I think also that shows how separatists here are extraordinarily

defiant, and perhaps also if you believe the Ukrainian theory that what they do is on the orders of the Kremlin, Putin doesn't want to show a weak

face at this time of international scrutiny.

The downing of Ukrainian jets is relatively regular during this conflict, and there is quite a lot of proliferation of these man-powered,

shoulder-fired missiles. But yes, as you pointed out, so close to the crash site of MH71 (sic), that really has got a lot of people on increased

scrutiny as to what quite what the separatists are about here, Richard.

QUEST: On the crash site itself, Nick, I need to just -- I need to talk about distasteful matters, and one of those is that there's the very

real possibility -- in fact, almost probability -- that there are still victims' bodies in the fields. How are they going to be recovered?

WALSH: It's an extraordinarily complex and messy process, and the more we learn about the details, the more complex it seems it's going to

be. Now, today, we learned that 74 coffins will be leaving for the Netherlands tomorrow, but we also learned that these coffins are not

actually containing necessarily one human body, one human soul, as it were.

It's -- effectively, the body bags that are taken off the train from Kharkiv are not opened and examined. They're scanned, x-rayed, and then

that is put into the coffin and then transferred to the Netherlands, where the examination procedure begins.

So, it's not clear whether or not -- exactly how many coffins there could be. They're still opening up the remaining third and fourth

refrigeration units that brought the bodies in, so there could be a very large number of coffins going, because there could be a very large number

of body bags.

The Dutch officials are still not sure how many were loaded onto the train. There have been suggestions of 282 intact bodies from Ukrainian

officials. They're still possibly more confident about the idea of there being 200 there.

But slowly, as they go through this train, they may discover where that discrepancy lies. No comfort, though, for the relatives. Richard?

QUEST: Good grief! A week after this event took place, and we can't even get an accurate account of how many bodies, how many victims there

are. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you, sir.

When we come back, the men and women who have to fly across the conflict zones, they have to land at the airports where there may be risks

and questions about safety. We'll talk to the pilots union after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. This is CNN and on this network the news comes first always. The Netherlands has held a day of mourning for the

victims of Malaysia Airlines 17. The first 40 coffins have left Ukraine and arrived to a dignified welcome home. As the victims were carried by

hearse to a forensic laboratory, tens, possibly hundreds of the thousands of people lined the streets and paid their respects.

Two Ukrainian military jets have been shot down in the eastern part of the country near the Russian border. A Ukrainian official says missiles

launched from inside Russia may be to blame. Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have told CNN rebel fighters shot down the planes using a shoulder mounted

missile system. Hamas says it would agree to a humanitarian truce for Gaza if Israel ends

its blockade. Weeks of fighting between Israel and Gaza militants have killed some 700 people. The vast majority of them are Palestinian. Hamas

says it won't agree to a full ceasefire until the terms are negotiated. Staying in the region in U.S., airlines have been banned from flying to Tel

Aviv for a further 24 hours. The U.S. State Department says it believes Hamas does have the capability to hit Ben Gurion with its rockets. U.S.

government says it's safe to fly there. A rocket struck about a mile from the airport on Tuesday, however the Federal Aviation Administration says it

is reviewing significant new evidence from Israel. A curfew is in place in the Nigerian city of Kaduna after two suicide bomb

blasts killed dozens of people. One of the attacks targeted the convoy of the senior Nigerian opposition leader Muhammadu Buhari. The former

presidential candidate escaped unhurt. Now we've heard already in the program Sir Tim Clark called for a meeting,

a council, a summit, a conference of like-minded individuals to investigate and to look into what happened with MH17, and to seek better regulation of

international skies. The aircraft was shot down over Eastern Ukraine, but crucially it was on its usual flight path from Amsterdam to KL and it was

in airspace believed to be safe. The airspace restriction was set at 32,000 feet by the Ukrainians. MH17

had requested 35,000 feet, that wasn't available, so ATC had given flight level 3-3-0 - 33,000 feet. Sounds so good so far - because remember what

the Ukrainians were aiming for or were hoping to avoid was a shoulder-based missile system which could perhaps only reach 12,000 feet - somewhere down

there should've been safe. But, the missile involved had a range of some 59,000 feet, well beyond the maximum altitude of the 777. To put this in

perspective, frankly, it doesn't matter what altitude ATC had given MH17, it doesn't matter what level it was flying at. It was a sitting target for

the power of the SAM missile which could go considerably higher. It exposes the patchwork authorities responsible for securing the skies. We

talked about it, you saw it - ICAO, IATA and the various alphabet soup of regulators pilots are forced to rely on national authorities. Well, we

talked about to the British Airline Pilots Association who says global leadership is now needed now.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

JIM MCAUSLAN, BRITISH AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION: Absolute mess. Passengers trust pilots and pilots need to trust the authorities that give

them instructions about the routes they should follow. And at present, pilots' trust in those authorities is at an all-time low.

QUEST: We have two distinct issues we need to talk about. The first of course is the MH17. The second is the Tel Aviv Ben Gurion Airport. But

they come together because in both cases, airlines - pilots and airlines - have to rely on the national authorities.

MCAUSLAN: Yes, in both cases also there is contradictory advice coming out from different authorities about whether it's safe to fly in that area or

not. And that's what's so confusing to pilots and which is causing pilots confidence in the authorities to be so dented.

QUEST: So let's just take the situation in Tel Aviv at the moment. EASA - the European Aviation Safety Authority - has put out a strong

recommendation not to fly to Ben Gurion. Well, some airlines - British Airways included - say they know better and they deem it safe because the

Israelis deem it safe. How do you feel about hat?

MCAUSLAN: We feel that if there's a problem, the decision to be taken globally by the International Civil Aviation Organization - a U.N. body -

and if one airline isn't flying there, no airline should be flying there. What we're most interested in, Richard, is what were the decision-making

processes that took place for that Malaysian aircraft, and indeed any aircraft, flying through the Eastern Ukraine last week. When they had

different instructions, different pieces of guidance - whether they should be flying there or not - what did the head of security in those airlines

say? What did the director of operations say? What did the commercial director say? What did the head of finance say? What were the decisions

that convinced Malaysian aircraft and other airlines to fly through that airspace? We would be most interested to understand that because that is

where we think the issue is. The issue is the airlines are now using risk-based assessments to say

whether they should fly or not fly. But what are the ways in which those risk assessments are made?

QUEST: Airlines are always and have always used risk-based assessments where they've had a particular concern. What we need to surely look at,

Jim, is the way in which the industry determines something's safe -- the floor, if you like, -- that is safe. Is it ICAO that should do this? Does

there need to be as Sir Tim Clark has suggested, a summit, a convention, a conference on this?

MCAUSLAN: Someone needs to do it. Someone needs to get hold of this situation. We believe that the most appropriate body is the International

Civil Aviation Organization - the U.N. body. But it needs to have the tools, it needs to have the resources, it needs to be fed the intelligence

to alert to make an informed decision. And that is where we think our efforts should be now. Far more effort put into that, and into whether we

should have sanctions against Russia. That's where international communities should be putting the effort and we support Tony Tyler's call

for that summit to be held. We would be very happy to participate in that summit, but let's get moving. The world has changed since the murder of -

last thought we have 298 - innocent civilians and three of our fellow pilots. The world has moved on. We need to speed ourselves up and get to

the heart of this. Otherwise, we're going to have global anarchy in and around war zones for anyone trying in a civil airliner.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

QUEST: Now let's put this into even perspective. Jalal Haidar is the chief exec of the World Aviation Forum and was on the governing council of

ICAO, the International Civil Aviation Organization. You've heard us talk about ICAO a great deal. Jalal joins me now from Washington. Sir, good to

see you. Thank you for your giving us time. Is ICAO up to the job? Is an organization that's based on the United - well that's part of the United

Nations - that's based on working through consensus, but has so many disparate views, capable of reforming a system that appears to be broken?

JALAL HAIDAR, DIRECTOR, WORLD AVIATION FORUM: Not at the present time, Richard. It's impossible. ICAO is a wonderful organization, they've done

a great job for the last 50-some years. But ICAO is functioning based on the 1944 Convention on International Civil Aviation. This convention does

not and will not serve today's international civil aviation community, and that's why we have the chaos that we see.

QUEST: So you do agree that - and we could either take the incident of MH17 or we can take Ben Gurion Airport where we have some saying it's safe,

some saying it's not. One regulator saying it's not safe, one saying strictly - strongly - recommended, another saying - you'd agree it is a

mess tonight?

HAIDAR: Mess is an understatement, Richard. The situation, again, is very chaotic, there isn't truly an international agreement on how to assess this

risk. The risk assessment process that we have in place is processes actually, and it depends whose carrier you're flying where and which

country this carrier belongs to. If we take North America, if we take the U.S., for example, our carriers are lucky because our carriers' security

departments or actually officials communicate with our government officials. But this is not the same case, or this is not the case in other

parts around the world.

QUEST: So, I've got to ask you, because I'm looking my chart here - I've got ICAO, I've got IATA, I've got the national regulators, I've got the

airlines. Who is responsible? Get - I mean - let's go back to ground zero in this incident. Year one - who should now lead the way to find a

solution?

HAIDAR: If the Chicago Convention is revisited, and reformed, or modernized and empowered, Chicago - the Chicago Convention therefore can -

or anyone can give ICAO teeth. Right now ICAO has no teeth in aviation security.

QUEST: But you're living in a - with respect, you're living in a dream world, sir, if you think that they can get a new Chicago. They can't even

come up with an immediate response on Ben Gurion Airport. They're never going to sit down and get a new Chicago.

HAIDAR: There has been quite a bit of resistance to have a modernized Chicago Convention. And, again, this is why we have problems. Right now

the bigger - the larger - picture is, Richard, this is how - let's now we have to look at it. ICAO represents the international regulatory body of

aviation. That is a very broken body to say the least because you have regulatory agencies who are supposed to be regulating the regulatant -

QUEST: Right.

HAIDAR: -- cannot do the job. They don't have the means to do the job. That's why someone like Tim Clark would say let's do something. This is

the job of governments - together -

QUEST: Right.

HAIDAR: -- as David Soucie said as partnership with the airlines. It's about information-sharing, it's about - it's a partnership. The airline's

going to the law and government's going to do law.

QUEST: And we'll talk more, sir. Jalal please - I think this is your first time on our program. I certainly hope, sir, that we - you have a

standing invitation on aviation matters to come back and talk to us more often. We'd loved to -

HAIDAR: Thank you. Thank you.

QUEST: -- very much indeed. We will have more after the break. Michael Bloomberg has arrived in Tel Aviv. He flew there last night on El Al.

He's been talking to Wolf Blitzer. You'll hear about it on this program.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Last night on a flight - an El Al plane from New York to Tel Aviv, there was a very special passenger -- the former mayor of New York, Michael

Bloomberg. He decided to fly from New York to Tel Aviv in solidarity with the Israeli people and in protest against the U.S. government's decision to

ban American carriers from flying to Israel A short while ago, Michael Bloomberg spoke to Wolf Blitzer. He was joined by the Jerusalem mayor, Nir

Barkat. Wolf asked Mayor Bloomberg why he made the trip.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I just wanted to do something personally to show my support for standing up for what's right.

I think Israel is doing that. Hamas is trying to kill the Palestinians and kill the Israelis, and somebody's got to say that they've got to stop this.

And then along comes the FAA which I think made a mistake - hopefully they'll rectify it soon - but they said they didn't want American planes

flying in to the world's most secure airport, and so I decided I would take a trip over here on the world's most secure airline going to the world's

most secure airport. It's a good lesson for all of us how to run security. Unfortunately in America, too many times we find people walking across

runways, people carrying guns and getting through security on the planes. Baggage not being claimed afterwards, and so it's a good lesson for us how

to run an airline, how to run an airport and I think the FAA should try to make sure that American airports and American airlines follow what is done

here, and we certainly don't want to stop flights into airports in America. It would be devastating for America, it's devastating for Israel when you

stop flights in.

WOLF BLITZER, SENIOR ANCHOR ON CNN: Well what do you mean - I just want to clarify - when you say Hamas is trying to kill Palestinians?

BLOOMBERG: Hamas is hiding among Palestinians and firing rockets at the Israelis, knowing full well the Israelis have no choice but to do anything

they can to stop the carnage of the rockets falling on Israeli citizens, and knowing full well that if Israel does come in and do that, civilians,

sadly, are going to also suffer.

BLITZER: The whole notion of coming here - the FAA ban has extended for another 24 hours -

BLOOMBERG: Yes.

BLITZER: -- its ban on United, U.S. Airways, Delta - the major U.S. carriers -

BLOOMBERG: All registered - planes registered - in the United States including private ones.

BLITZER: But don't you think they are primarily concerned? Their job - these experts at the FAA - is to protect American passengers and they saw

this pocket come into near Ben Gurion Airport yesterday - land about a mile away, and they say they want to err on the side of caution, especially

after what happened in Ukraine with the Malaysia airliner.

BLOOMBERG: I'm sure they do, but if you have a standard, you would close every airport in the United States, you'd close down every airline.

Unfortunately, our security isn't very good then. The real world is that there are things going on near airports all over the world. Ben Gurion

Airport, because Israel has been threatened since it was formed in 1948, is the most secure airport - El Al - because it's the national airlines of

Israel is the most secure airline, and so what we've got to do is say - we have to take reasonable precautions but you cannot shut down everything

just because one terrorist some place on the other side of the world says, `I'm going to be a threat.'

(END VIDEOCLIP)

QUEST: Mayor Michael Bloomberg talking to Wolf a short while ago. It has been a very busy day, and the misery in the world of aviation continued

today with the crash of a plane in Taiwan. We'll give you that story in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Forgive me, I have more grim news to bring you from the aviation industry. Dozens more people are feared dead after a plane crashed, this

time in Asia. It was a much smaller aircraft which is said to have crashed into a residential area in Taiwan's Penghu Islands. The plane was carrying

54 passengers and four crew. The cause is unknown. One thing we do know is there was bad weather in the area. I think actually that might be a

somewhat understatement. Tom Sater is at the World Weather Center. And - it wasn't just bad weather.

TOM SATER, METEOROLOGIST FOR CNN INTERNATIONAL: No, it was miserable. You know airline investigations, Richard. I know you know them well. And the

first question anyone's going to ask is who gave the OK for this flight to even take off to begin with? Let's back up - I mean, Typhoon Matmo and

when it made its way in toward Taiwan, the first landfall was midnight between Tuesday and Wednesday morning. Let me show you some pictures

because even long before this even moved in, you get these outer bands, and the strong winds are just buffeting the area. We'll show you more of that

in a minute. But then, after it made its way through Taiwan, a second landfall. This

occurred around 3:30 in the afternoon. Two hours after that landfall, the plane decided to take off. Just as you have winds on the leading edge,

you've got bands on the outside. So, the reports are that they were grounded for a little bit, there was a delay about 5:40 in the afternoon,

and then we're starting to see that the bottom edge of this typhoon was really starting to blossom with a lot of convective activity. This is

Penghu right here. So when the flight took in, you could see the explosiveness. But let's show you the Taiwanese Central Weather Bureau's

radar at the time of the incident. Here is where the plane went do on this island chain. Notice the outer

band. When an outer band is convective and active like this, it's one thunderstorm after another after another. They were reporting visibility

about 1,600 meters OK, that's almost may be a mile - one and a 1/2 kilometers. But closer inspection is these bands of rain are blinding.

Low clouds, low visibility, not to mention because of the delay, the sun had set 20 minutes prior to this so they lost daylight. Rainfall? 100

millimeters in three hours. That's on top of the 255 - that's 10 inches of rain they had throughout the day. So they're going to obviously

investigate this. I mean, the steep terrain of Taiwan is bad enough, and some of the rainfall totals have been staggering - over 350, over 400, 500.

How about 539 millimeters - that's 21 inches of rain - 637 - that's 25 inches and it's still coming down. So, again, this was a storm system only

equivalent to a category 2 hurricane. The system's now breaking down. It's just the remnants, Richard. It is

making its way northward, but there's no doubt weather played a role in that, and I'm sure the investigation is looking at most likely all the

weather elements and the observations at the time of that disaster.

QUEST: Tom Sater, thank you for putting that in such clear perspective for us. Much appreciated. And I'll be back with more in just a moment. Good

evening to you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Finally tonight, it wasn't only in the Netherlands where those who perished were remembered. Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko alongside

the Dutch ambassador to Ukraine laying flowers outside the embassy in Kiev. And then on the other side of the world, a vigil that was held in Kuala

Lumpur where 45 people including 15 Malaysian Airlines crew members lost their lives as well. And where they were remembered at a makeshift

memorial. And Newcastle United coach Alan Pardew laid wreaths on two empty seats. Why were two empty seats there tonight? They were set aside for

two fans. Those two fans died as they were making the long journey to see their beloved team play a pre-season game in New Zealand. What we've seen

and continue to see is that the wide range of people, the wide range of experiences, the wide range of those who died seems to know no ends. I'm

Richard Quest. Good night.

END