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Quest Means Business
Hopes Of Stabilizing Outbreak Lift Markets; Jamie Dimon Predicts "Bad Recession" And Blames "Bad Planning;" Some Hopeful Signs Of Fewer COVID-19 Cases In Europe. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired April 06, 2020 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:26]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: Sixty minutes before the close of trading on this first day of the new week, and it is an
ebullient week, or at least the stocks are on the market, the Dow and the major markets, all the major indices are showing the best gains that
they've seen in weeks.
Those are the markets and these are the reasons why. The sign of the flattening of the curve, potentially, it's giving hope to investors that at
least in some cities, the worst may be, I won't say behind, but the worst may be here, which means the future is brighter.
Jamie Dimon however, Chase predicts a bad recession. Anthony Scaramucci will be with me to give us his take.
And oil prices continue to sink. OPEC tries to get its act together. No one can seem to agree, so the price is in freefall. We're live as you can tell
from New York, the start of a new week. It is Monday, the 6th of April. I'm Richard Quest, and of course, I mean business.
Good evening, we always hesitate to say anything that might get worse. But as Winston Churchill said, it's not the beginning of the end, perhaps it's
the end of the beginning, and so it is today, cautious optimism that the pandemic approaching peak or at least my beginning to plateau.
In New York, the Governor of the State says the curve may be starting to flatten even as the White House has warned as the President did and as the
Surgeon General has warned that this week could be the toughest week so far, the hardest, and the saddest, as they put it.
Now, if you look at Europe, you see in Italy, in France and in Spain, the number of new cases it's too early to draw a conclusion, but the trend is
down. And the U.K. has reported the fewest cases since March 31st.
Some governments or even perhaps -- even like in Austria -- are just even raising this scintilla of opening up or at least moving to something
approaching normality.
The markets, the Dow has had the best gains in 11 days and Europe as you can see from these numbers, Europe is also up very sharply indeed, on the
prospect that -- it's difficult to know exactly the phrase.
Julia Chatterley is with me, she'll help me out, as to perhaps the best way to describe it. One doesn't want to make too much of this potential
flattening of the curve. Julia, are the markets getting a bit out of line here?
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE: There's lots of chatter behind the scenes and it depends what data set you look at,
Richard, that perhaps we saw a stabilization in the daily number of cases in countries like Germany, in Sweden, in Austria, too. So that's permeating
I think the markets here, and for me, this is interesting.
It's a great sign if curves are bending around the world, but I come back to what we keep describing, seeing that in some way and a reaction in terms
of the number of cases that we're seeing is very different from being in a position where you can say, okay, now you can start opening up your economy
and getting everybody back to work.
In the absence of the mass testing that we've seen in countries like South Korea and their markets in particular are very interesting for me, I think
they're 20 percent of recent lows. In that case, in the absence of that in Europe, in the United States, ultimately, when they get -- when we get
there, I'm still cautious about what the exit plan of this lockdown scenario, this stay-at-home scenario is.
So while we are seeing some greater confidence permeating, I put you to what Janet Yellen said today and what Jamie Dimon also said today about the
fact that in the short term, at least, the economic impact of what we're doing and continue to do is pretty devastating.
QUEST: Julia, thank you. Julia giving us the overview, and rightly sobering us up when you look at the numbers. Thank you, Julia.
Now, one of the reasons for this optimism today is New York as it saw a decline in reported deaths. Less than 600 on both Sunday and Monday.
Horrific numbers to be talking about nonetheless.
But, the governor of the state, Governor Andrew Cuomo says the deaths being effectively flat for two days, well, it gives a prospect of a plateau, but
it's too soon to say.
[15:05:14]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): It can still go anyway. We could still see an increase. So it is hopeful, but it's also inconclusive. And it still
depends on what we do, right? These models all have a coefficient of what we do and how successful we are social distancing, et cetera.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Sanjay Gupta -- Dr. Sanjay Gupta is with us live from Atlanta. Doctor, so the temptation is to in this sort of, I want it now mentality
that many of us have, see this number and think, oh, well, it's all getting better. We can all relax and maybe not go back out again. But the end is in
sight. You will be cautioning otherwise, I guess.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I think on one hand, Richard, I think it's safe to say that this will come to
an end at some point. I mean, so to that extent, you know there may be an end to a long tunnel, but there is going to be an end to this tunnel at
some point.
You're looking at these numbers, Richard like anybody else. And I think you know, probably much like the financial world or any other world, these
models are only as good as the inputs you're informing them with. And right now, you know, these inputs change on a regular basis.
So it is good that the pace at which these patients who are confirmed to have these infection is going down, although the numbers still go up.
They're going to bounce around a little bit, though, I think at this point, some of this is just sort of dependent on, you know, how big hospital
systems are sort of responding.
They're getting very close to being at capacity in terms of all the equipment and resources that they're using. So that's really what they're
focused on. It is trying to keep it below the -- not to sort of supersede the hospital capacity at this point.
I would like to watch these numbers for a few more days. I'd like to compare them with other places in the United States and see how they're
doing. And also, Richard, we do have some real world data from places like Italy and Spain as well.
As you know, Richard, Vice President Pence said, the United States trajectory is very similar to Italy. And right now, if you look at the
numbers closely, where our curve is actually a little bit above that, see the number there, the United States sort of at the very top there. You see
Italy in black, so we're a little behind, but right now depends on where we're going to go exactly.
Are we going to flatten out? Or is the arc going to continue there?
QUEST: Sanjay, the curve once it flattens here in New York, is it the feeling of the experts that New York is the worst? And I wonder, are we
looking at a potential explosion in cases in other metropolitan areas like Chicago, or Miami or Los Angeles?
GUPTA: Well, you know, I would say that New York probably is the worst in terms of overall number of cases. At first, I wondered if that was just
because they became very diligent about testing.
As you know, the entire country has been somewhat delayed and testing, but New York ramped up a little bit more quickly than ultimately than some of
these other cities.
But now, I think, it's just, you know, it's a densely populated area, public transportation, big international airport. All these are factors
into the spread of this virus, so I think New York is going to be -- you know, have some of the highest numbers.
But Richard, look, some of these other cities, including Atlanta, where I am -- Chicago, also densely populated, big international airports, I think
we may see similar sort of trajectories just behind. Maybe not as high an apex ultimately, but I think they're going to be big numbers still here
sadly, Richard.
And keep in mind like in Detroit, two weeks ago, I think they had some 15 patients who were confirmed to have the infection. And now it's into the
thousands.
So it changes and it changes very quickly. The doubling rate, I'll just leave you with this, Richard, the doubling rate for New York, as well as
the country is around six or seven days. So just about a week, so just double the numbers one week from now, and then double them again, two weeks
from now and you sort of see where we are.
Hopefully, again, that doubling starts to spread out, the pace starts to slowdown. But again, we just don't know for sure.
QUEST: Sanjay -- Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is in at the CNN Center. Sir, as always, we need your advice, and your guidance and we appreciate it
tonight. Thank you.
Now, back to our economic agenda. Taking all that we know, the chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon says that a bad recession --
predicts a bad recession after bad planning. His exact words were, "We don't know what the future will hold, but at a minimum, we assume that it
will include a bad recession, combined with some kind of financial stress similar to the global crisis that we saw in 2008."
[15:10:22]
QUEST: It was in his shareholder letter. He says Q2 GDP will fall 35 percent at an annual rate, seasonally adjusted at an annual rate. Fourteen
percent U.S. unemployment. That's just about where the consensus is at the moment, and the country had no playbook for the pandemic.
Joining me is Anthony Scaramucci, former White House Communications Director. I think that we need your assistance, Anthony today as the
founder of Skybridge Capital. You heard what Jamie Dimon says, does that seem about right to you? Does that seem where we're heading? Bad recession
and stresses in the financial system?
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FOUNDER AND MANAGING PARTNER, SKYBRIDGE: Well, listen, I mean, I think it's a fact we're going to have a bad recession
because definitionally it's two quarters of negative growth and we're certainly going to get that.
But I think where I would probably differ a little bit with Jamie's letter is that you've got $10 trillion that's going to impact the economy once
we're all able to return to work.
And listening to Dr. Gupta, I'm pretty optimistic, if we can get back to work in the United States, mid-May, towards the end of May, we might be
able to pull out of this thing quicker than people expect.
One other brief important point, though, is the mortgage market of the United States has seized and unless the Federal government does something
to unlock that seizure, that will be bad for the economy, primarily because lots of our small businesses, there's 30 million of them, about 60 percent
of the small businesses in the United States, Richard, are tied to housing in some way, shape, or form.
And so we're going to need that market to unseize, otherwise a lot of what Jamie is saying will come true.
QUEST: The Fed has already done with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and today they announced it was going to give extra lending through PPP, the
Payroll Protection Plan, it's basically going to lend against loans, to keep things moving, does the -- who bears the brunt of responsibility here,
Anthony? Is it the Fed now, or more than the administration?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, listen, I think I think it's a combination of things. Obviously, the fiscal stimulus, what you're referring to is they're going
to effectively create these recovery bonds. And they're going to inject those into the marketplace so that we can get money to the barber, right up
to the Boeing Corporation.
And so the Federal have a very large part to do with that. I do predict though, that that helicopter money portion of the stimulus, the sort of
$1,200.00 going to the adult and the $500.00 going into the child, I think it's too low.
If you look at the amount of money that people will need to replace consumption and to meet their outstanding obligations, they're probably
going to have to layer on another stimulus.
So Speaker Pelosi is talking about that, and that will be the responsibility of the administration to come up with something. But if they
come up with something, and they can get the deployment of capital into the nation's small businesses, in the next couple of weeks, I do think you'll
get a pretty powerful recovery.
Jamie will be right, it'll be a recession. But remember, Richard, this is a recession based on a work stoppage. There's nothing systemic wrong with the
economy. In fact, the balance sheets of the nation's banks are in a pristine condition relative to what they were in 2008.
QUEST: So I see today also, a couple of the airlines are now applying for assistance from the financial for the airlines part of the financial
plan and the CARES Act.
Do you think that in the negotiations, the administration should insist on either warrants, or some form of stay or some form of protection, or as the
Airlines for America says, that will be a bad idea, essentially nationalizing in part the airline network?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, I'm sort of hoping they go in the loan direction as opposed to taking equity stakes in the airlines. And I think they might be
able to tie some covenants to those loans that block the airlines from issuing share repurchases or steeped up or stepped up bonuses for the CEO
and the executive suite.
I'm not in love with the equity piece. Having said that, though, where you and I are both old enough now to know that anything that you think can
happen in the marketplace, in fact does happen.
And so listen, if the feds ask for it, some of them airlines are going to be desperate for that capital particularly right now given where yields are
and they'll likely take it, but I would prefer they not have to do that.
[15:15:10]
QUEST: Good to speak to you. Thank you, as always. Anthony Scaramucci giving us an assessment on the economic situation on the bigger picture.
SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here.
QUEST: As QUEST MEANS BUSINESS from New York continues, after the break, there are signs of hope in Europe as well. We'll be talking about that.
And the hotel industry, hospitality -- one of the hardest hit -- the CEO of Okura Hotels joins me. This is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. It is a beautiful day
in New York. We're back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: CNN breaking news. News from Downing Street in London. The British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who as you'll be aware, is in
hospital has now been moved to Intensive Care for his recovery and his treatment. I'll read you a little bit of the statement from Number 10.
It says that, "The Prime Minister over the course of the afternoon, the condition of the Prime Minister has worsened and on the advice, he has been
moved to the Intensive Care Unit."
Bianca Nobilo is in London and joins me now. I beg your pardon, Bianca will be with me in just a moment to put some perspective on exactly what that
means.
A glimmer of hope continues of course. Let me read a bit more from the statement. It says, "Over the course of the afternoon, the condition of the
Prime Minister has worsened and on the advice of his medical team, he has been moved to the Intensive Care Unit at the hospital. The Foreign
Secretary who is the First Secretary of State will deputize where necessary. The PM is receiving excellent care," et cetera et cetera.
Now, the glimmer of hope in Europe, despite this bad news coming from London, that the daily number of deaths is dropping in key countries. For
example, France, Spain, and Italy, which have been the epicenters across the European Union. They're all making plans in many cases for the next
stage of the coronavirus crisis. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR (voice over): A bit of what we all need -- hope from Europe.
Here, a Spanish patient leaving the ICU.
Austria, the first in Europe to think about easing its lockdown. Its Chancellor said Monday, smaller stores may be allowed to open after Easter,
but customers will be required to wear facemasks as they do now in bigger grocery stores.
[15:20:10]
PATON WALSH (voice over): Some European governments saying their curves of reported infections and are going down as the U.S. and U.K. still go up.
Everything will be okay, draws a child in Italy, once the epicenter where now deaths have been slowing down for over a week.
In France and Spain, they've been slowing since Thursday. In the Netherlands, a week; Portugal since Friday, a sign that time can show the
exit from weeks of grief, fear and solitude.
Denmark also saying it may ease its restrictions, against a very serious backdrop, said the Danish Prime Minister last week, we have grounds for
cautious optimism.
But Spain where the toll has been severe, exercising caution and patience.
We can't afford to relax our attention on this instance said their Prime Minister. We have to keep going forward with the same discipline the same
solidarity, responsibility and with the same tenacity, but as if on cue to warn about loosening restrictions too fast.
Japan itself hit less hard in past months. Monday prepared for a state of emergency amid rising cases.
The duration will be about one month, said their Prime Minister. We need further cooperation from citizens to minimize contact between people. And
the U.K., now plunging into its peak said its Prime Minister Boris Johnson would remain in hospital for tests, which seem hour by hour less routine,
as they were originally deemed.
He has now had symptoms for 11 days. The virus showing how indiscriminate and unrelenting it is, a reminder that even if you can see the light,
you're still in the tunnel.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Now, let me just recap here what we now know. The British Prime Minister has been moved to Intensive Care. It's not believed that he is on
a ventilator at the moment. According to Downing Street. It says, "Over the course of the afternoon, the condition of the Prime Minister has worsened
and on the advice of his medical team, he has been moved to the Intensive Care Unit at the hospital. The Prime Minister is receiving excellent care
and thanks all N.H.S. staff for their hard work and dedication."
We will have more on this in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: All right, we do have breaking news coming in.
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has been transferred to the Intensive Care Unit, after testing positive for coronavirus and heading into the
hospital.
CNN's Bianca Nobilo joins me now with the details on this. Bianca, what are you learning here?
[15:25:00]
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, this hour, we have learned that Boris Johnson has been transferred to the ICU.
Now, we knew that he had been admitted to hospital about 24 hours ago. The Prime Minister tested positive for coronavirus 10 days ago. He had then
been in self-isolation. We'd barely seen him. He'd only emerged once or twice.
Then, yesterday, on the advice of his doctor, because his symptoms were persisting, he was advised to go to hospital for "routine tests." We were
not told what those were. We then received word about 15 minutes ago that he'd be moved to the Intensive Care Unit about 7:00 p.m., so about an hour
ago, local time.
Now, that's all we have at the moment about the Prime Minister's condition. There was a lot of concern today when his de facto deputy, Dominic Raab,
took the stage to do the press conference from Downing Street.
We weren't getting almost any information about the Prime Minister's condition, no indication of deterioration. But the language had changed.
Last week, they'd refer to the Prime Minister's symptoms as mild. Today, they were calling them persistent. Clearly, there has been a deterioration.
On doctor's advice at St. Thomas' Hospital in London, he's been moved to the Intensive Care Unit.
So as soon as we get more information about that, we will update you. All that we have is that the PM is receiving excellent care from the N.H.S.
There were posts on his Twitter account, on his Instagram account today, but we haven't seen the Prime Minister for some time.
The doctors are -- the decision was made by the Prime Minister's medical team because his condition has worsened over the course of the afternoon
today.
Now, at the lobby briefing, which happens daily about the Prime Minister and the activities of the U.K. government, it was -- the notion that he was
on a ventilator at that point was dispensed with.
There had been some erroneous Russian reports that the Prime Minister was on a ventilator. The spokesperson took the opportunity to say, no, that's
disinformation. That is not true. Then, as we now know, his condition has worsened over the afternoon.
So the Prime Minister now in Intensive Care for his persistent coronavirus symptoms, which we now understand to have worsened considerably today --
Kate.
BOLDUAN: And, Bianca, I mean, to this point, correct me if I'm wrong, everything that we have heard is that he has been -- he has been working
from the hospital, completely engaged, involved.
One, look, if I -- if someone's telling me that someone here in the States has been put into the ICU, they're no longer really working from the
hospital. Are you hearing anything about that?
NOBILO: Yes, we now under understand that Dominic Raab, who is the Foreign Secretary and also the First Secretary of State here in the United
Kingdom, is going to deputize for the Prime Minister.
Now, in the U.K., we don't have the same kind of chain of succession, if you like, as you do in the United States. There's nothing formalized. If
there's no Deputy Prime Minister, then it tends to be the First Secretary of State. So, Dominic Raab, the Foreign Secretary, will be deputizing.
He led the Prime Minister's Coronavirus War Cabinet this morning at 9:15. But, as you mentioned, today, we were told that the Prime Minister was
continuing to lead the country, continuing to be at the helm, and worked from his hospital bed. He was having all of his integral papers and all of
his updates delivered to him there.
Now, when our chief medical officer was asked in the press conference inside Downing Street today whether or not it was sensible for somebody who
has been suffering from persistent coronavirus symptoms for 10 days of a fever and a cough to keep working from hospital, he said it depends on the
individual.
But that was reiterated by the Foreign Secretary that the Prime Minister was fully in charge and getting involved where he needs to. So that was the
case at 5:00 p.m. local time this afternoon, so just three hours ago, and things have clearly deteriorated markedly since then, as the Prime Minister
has now decided to stand aside for the moment and give that responsibility.
The responsibility to lead this country through this national emergency now goes to Dominic Raab, the Foreign Secretary.
BOLDUAN: Look, and, Bianca, this isn't just any regular citizen. I mean, this is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
Have you received a clear answer? You mentioned the question of being put on a ventilator. Have you received a definitive answer if he is now on a
ventilator?
NOBILO: No, we haven't. And, obviously, it's not my place, and I'm not a medical expert, to speculate on the kind of medical condition that he would
be in. We do understand, though, that patients who are suffering from coronavirus, if moved to the Intensive Care Unit, are often needing a lot
of oxygen support and perhaps ventilation, but we certainly don't know that for sure.
All that we can say is that the Prime Minister's condition has deteriorated. Obviously, we would expect an update on his condition as soon
as they have something and that has been Downing Street's line this entire time.
They have said, we will update you when there is something to say. Otherwise, stop asking questions, essentially. The Prime Minister clearly
has a lot to get on with and he has his own responsibility to heal.
So, the Prime Minister receiving care at the moment in the Intensive Care Unit, now Dominic Raab taking over. It is -- it was curious,
[15:30:00]
actually, in the press conference today, Kate, it was noted by several journalists that the Prime Minister had been underscoring how precious the
NHS was and how precious each of these beds in hospital is right now, as Britain nears the peak of this outbreak, 493 people died -- 439 people
dying today. One of the journalists asked the question, well, which is it? Is the Prime Minister fit and well enough to lead the country at this
point? Or is he so sick that he requires one of those precious beds that so many people need at the moment in the United Kingdom? So, I think that kind
of question which has struggled to be answered by those at the press conference, certainly started sort of people asking that question, you
know, which one is it?
Boris Johnson is somebody who always goes out of his way to project you know, a vibrant, strong leadership. He's exuberant, and he also doesn't
like to divulge personal details, but clearly, the health of the Prime Minister now is absolutely integral to the health of the nation. So, that's
why people were asking questions this afternoon trying to discern, is he well enough to be making decisions, not just on a daily basis, Kate, that
pertain to this country's health and ability to withstand this outbreak, but on an hourly basis. Clearly now, he has given those responsibilities to
his de facto deputy Dominic Raab, who will be taking those key decisions in the coming hours and days.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Now, and I think you pose -- and all the journalists are posing the paramount question right now, if the Prime
Minister is well enough to be leading the country at this point. Really, really sad turn of events right now. As soon as you have updates, please
bring it to us, Bianca, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Joining me right now, CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, thank you so much for jumping on so quickly. Clearly, a lot not
known. But as we were learning -- what we heard right there from Bianca, we know -- it sounds like we know two -- we know one thing, essentially, that
he clearly has worsened. Because he has now been moved into intensive care. What are your questions that you have now for the limited information that
has been made public about the Prime Minister?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, he was admitted to the hospital last night as my understanding, about 10 days
after he was first diagnosed. Minders, what we heard last night was that it was for more routine sort of, you know, evaluation in the hospitals for
some testing and things like that. We want to know, you know, you know, just what's -- what was the status at that time last night?
And then, you know, obviously, the question, Kate, is what happened today that that sort of prompted this move to the intensive care unit? It's
usually one of the few things. The most the most obvious thing, especially with something that is a respiratory problem where there was concern about
his ability, Boris Johnson's ability to sort of continue on his own without some additional oxygen, maybe even a breathing machine. I don't know that
for sure, obviously. But that's one of the reasons people go to the intensive care unit.
BOLDUAN: Right.
GUPTA: Sometimes it can be due to heart issues. If someone is unable to maintain their blood pressure for some reason, they need to have
medications placed that are typically monitored and administered in intensive care unit. It could just be sometimes out of an abundance of
caution. Look, we can't monitor someone as closely as we would like, on a general care floor. Need to go to the intensive care unit, or it's some
sort of more sophisticated therapy, some sort of treatment.
Of course, as you know, Kate, there is no specific known, approved therapy for COVID. But sometimes if there's certain medicines that they want to
try, sometimes they will do that in the intensive care unit. But to your point, something clearly changed. What was happening as of last night to
today is a very different sort of story. So, my guess is it probably has something to do with his heart or his lungs. And we, you know, we don't
have that information right now.
BOLDUAN: Look. And I was -- I remember Governor Cuomo actually saying last week, at the end of last week in terms of how they talk about resources
here in New York, he said -- he basically classified an ICU bed, in his mind, is any bed that requires a ventilator. And I found that interesting.
And I do wonder, though, if he we're told that he wasn't on -- Boris Johnson was not on a ventilator before. If he is now, what does that
indicate?
GUPTA: You know, first of all, you know, being 10, 11 days out from his initial diagnosis. This is the pattern, you know, as we really looked at
this data, this is a pattern that we've seen over and over again, that somebody may have a sudden sort of somewhat abrupt decline in their ability
to just maintain their breathing on their own, and they need to have mechanical support. I think you're right. I think what you're driving at,
Kate, is right, it's like in a midst of a pandemic, if someone is going to the intensive care unit, it obviously has to be for good reason. Because
these are obviously a very precious commodity, and the number one reason right now is because of ventilators.
[15:35:05]
And it's not just ventilators, but it's the respiratory therapists that actually, you know, administer all that therapy. And they're taking care of
the ventilator and the patient, and all the monitoring and all that goes on, you need not hour-by-hour monitoring, you need minute-by-minute
monitoring now. So, all of that is the case. Now, it may be that they're worried enough about him, that they think that he may need one. So, he's
sort of in that phase in between, and they thought it'd be better for him to be in the intensive care unit, just as a caution, but a very, very
concerned caution in the sense that they think that he may end up meeting being someone who needs to have a breathing tube placed and placed on this
ventilator. But again, we don't know. That is the pattern that we're seeing in so many other patients.
BOLDUAN: And that --
GUPTA: I think we know he's 55 years old, as well, Kate, so you know, he's younger than that very vulnerable age group. But that's not to say that
many people of that -- of that age range are ending up hospitalized and in the intensive care unit.
BOLDUAN: And I think what you're hitting on is something that is really important for people is the one thing I know I've been struck by and
hearing people's stories. And I'd love your perspective on it is the pattern. While there is so much not known, and there's so much not known
about why it hits one person differently than another person, but the pattern of mild-ish symptoms, and then this quick turn, where they quickly
need to be put on a ventilator. That's been, I think, kind of the scariest part of the pattern watching this play out.
GUPTA: Yes, I think typically, when you think about these types of infections, I think the perception typically is, look, someone has an
infection. In this case, the viral infection, the virus continues to replicate. And in a linear fashion and linear way, it starts to -- you
know, the body if it cannot fight this infection well enough, starts to become overwhelmed by the virus. But what seems to happen sometimes, Kate,
is that it sort of seems to be OK for a period of time. The patient is sick, but doing relatively OK. And then, there's a decline, you know,
pretty suddenly and sometimes it can be because the body's own immune system is actually the culprit here, it's not so much the virus, but the
body reacts in a very aggressive way.
And it's the inflammation from the body itself and all the other molecules with the inflammation that kind of that's causing the problem, making it
difficult for someone to breathe, making it difficult for their organs to function. Sometimes it can be that there's certain things that allow the
lungs to contract and expand well, and those -- and those particular things in the body start to become depleted, and that can cause sort of a sudden
decline. And, you know, again, we don't know, but it's important, really, for the physicians, the clinicians that are taking care of, you know, Boris
Johnson or anybody in that position because the way that you would treat that would be very differently if it's the immune system that is
overreacting --
BOLDUAN: Right.
GUPTA: -- you might give something to suppress the immune system. If it's the virus, you would not want to give something to suppress the immune
system, you would focus on just maintaining lung function and everything else to sort of support the patient. So, you don't know, it's important to
sort of figure it out. We know he's 55, so that puts him in a different pattern compared to other patients who are in the elderly, more vulnerable
populations. But, you know, that's probably right now what's happening in that intensive care unit. What exactly is going on with his lungs and his
heart?
BOLDUAN: Sorry, buddy, what would the next -- I mean, Downing Street needs to put out some more information, there's no question, as this continues
and goes into the evening. What would be your first question to them right now in regards to trying to get a good handle on where the Prime Minister
is in the course of this illness or how well or not he is in the moment?
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, I think, you know, from a medical perspective, you know, you clearly want to know what exactly was the reason for the transfer
to the intensive care unit, and even more specifically, is he now on a breathing machine? If he is on a breathing machine, how is he responding to
that breathing machine? You know, most people will respond well, and they will have, you know, a recovery as they're supported by a breathing
machine. Is he -- is he falling into that sort of category where he's responding well? I think it is safe to say as well that, you know, when
you're on a breathing machine like this, you're not -- you know, usually you're often sedated. You know, you're not able to really -- because of the
medicines they give you, to really be cognizant and aware and interacting in some way, at least well, initially.
BOLDUAN: Well, Sanjay, that that might sound like just to kind of part of the process for anyone, but when it comes to the leader of a country, what
you just said is a very important fact.
[15:40:01]
GUPTA: Yes, it is important, and I think -- but it is medically necessary, you know? I mean, when you're in a situation like that, in order to get
somebody stabilized, to make sure they are comfortable, that they are responding well to the therapy you're giving them. For a period of time, we
often give medicines to basically sedate somebody and to -- you know, to make sure we -- all those other therapies that were given -- that we're
giving to that person are -- have a higher chance of succeeding.
BOLDUAN: Yes, Sanjay, thank you so much. All right. Stick around with me -- everybody, stick around. We have much more on this Breaking News right
after this.
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[15:45:08]
BOLDUAN: All right. We're back with Breaking News, U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has been moved to intensive care as he continues to battle
coronavirus. But with this new development, he's been moved into the ICU. Let me get over to CNN International Diplomatic Editor, Nic Robertson with
more on this. Nic, do you have an update?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: We do. The Prime Minister, we're told is conscious at this time, that he has been moved to
the ICU as a precautionary measure in case he needs a ventilator. So, the implication here from Downing Street is that he is not on a ventilator at
this time, a precautionary measure. But I think it's worth noting here that 24 hours ago, Downing Street was saying that Prime Minister, Boris Johnson
was being moved as a precautionary step. And now, of course, he's in the ICU.
The British medical assessment of people that get into the critical care phase of the health service system here that are in the Prime Minister's
age bracket, that is 55, between 50 and 69, have a 54 percent chance of recovery. So, those statistics are not particularly favorable. Obviously,
worse for older people but those are statistics that come from the British medical profession dealing with the virus. The hospital that he's in at the
moment, say they've had over 400 patients, coronavirus patients so far, that they are short of staff because of people being off sick, that they
have had shortages of personal protective equipment, but they do say that they have quite a number and range of well-maintained, good ICU areas.
So, the Prime Minister is in a hospital in the center of London, just a few minutes' drive from Downing Street. He went there yesterday not in an
ambulance, but in a regular vehicle, he went, we were told, at that time, not in an emergency situation. But I think this is what we've been
discovering from the information that Downing Street has been giving so far, that they tend to downplay the severity of the situation.
We saw that in the press conference today, multiple questions as of is now deputy, the man who stepped up to take over, Dominic Raab, the Foreign
Secretary -- for Secretary of State. And the answers kept pushing back at that press conference, that his condition -- that they wouldn't
specifically comment on was that he was still capable in capacity still leading the country just a few hours ago. So I think caution when we listen
to the lines that we get from Downing Street at the moment,
BOLDUAN: Nic, is it clear to you at the moment who is running the British government right now?
ROBERTSON: It is very clear. They've made this very clear, the Prime Minister has nominated Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, who is also the
first secretary of state who is the natural person to step up to take the Prime Minister's place. This is decided on a case by case basis. Of course,
this isn't something that ever happens with any kind of regularity whatsoever. But the Prime Minister has nominated him to take over. Indeed,
Dominic Raab chaired the Prime Minister's normal morning meeting just about 12 hours ago now. That was quite a short meeting. I was outside Downing
Street when he went in. The health Secretary went in, as well.
While it's the Prime Minister's normal short beginning of the day meeting to catch up with his cabinet, it was dominated obviously by the -- by the
coronavirus virus issue. But already this morning, Dominic Raab was already stepping up and taking over from the Prime Minister. Although at that time,
we were told the Prime Minister was still leading the country. That has changed now.
BOLDUAN: All right, Nic, thanks so much. Let me bring back in Dr. Megan Ranney, she's an E.R. physician we're talking to at the top of the show.
Doctor, what do you take from all of this?
DR. MEGAN RANNEY, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN: So, it's tough to know, although the information that we just got is helpful, suggesting that the Prime Minister
is not yet on a ventilator. Based on the story that we've heard to date, my suspicion is that the Prime Minister probably developed one of the very
common complications of COVID-19, which is problems with your lungs and with your breathing. We're seeing that a lot of patients with COVID-19
develop something that we call ground glass opacities, or little teeny inflammations throughout your lungs that we're still trying to figure out,
are they infections, are they fluid, what exactly is causing them.
When that happens, we're finding that patients get short of breath, and their oxygen levels drop, sometimes to very dangerous levels. And at that
point, people need closer monitoring, they need higher levels of oxygen, they may need extra respiratory support. In a special negative pressure rim
that helps to minimize the chance of infection for other people around them. So, that would be my best guess at as to what's happening here based
on the description that we've received to date.
[15:50:03]
BOLDUAN: Right, and obviously, we don't speculate on exactly the Prime Minister's condition but when you're -- when you hear this, do you expect
that he would be on a ventilator right now?
RANNEY: So, not necessarily, we certainly send people to the intensive care unit for that really high level of monitoring. We usually have a higher or
a lower number of nurses for patients. So, for instance, in intensive care units in my own state, we usually have about a two to one ratio, so any
nurse only has two patients at a time. So, it may just be that the Prime Minister needs higher levels of nursing care, again, needs higher levels of
oxygen or other non-ventilator based respiratory supports that simply are not possible in a normal floor bed.
But it does create concern that he could be heading towards a ventilator. And one of the things that's so tough about COVID-19 is that we just don't
have great science yet to predict who is about to get sicker and why and how to intervene on it. So, it's tough for me to say what's going to happen
next because we've seen some people spend a week in the ICU, and never go on a ventilator and are fine. Other people get intubated and spend two
weeks on a ventilator and never come off. Some people are in the middle and go on a ventilator for a little bit and then go on to do OK.
There are a lot of other experimental treatments that are being used in the course of trials across the world right now. Those may also be things that
they're considering using for the Prime Minister, although most of those would not require an intensive care unit bed.
BOLDUAN: Dr. Ranney, thank you so much. Let me get over to Elizabeth Cohen. Elizabeth, you've been watching this, listening to this news. What do you
see here?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, there are two things I want to talk about here, Kate. First of all, I think people need
to remember that with dangerous viruses, sometimes this happens. I have done more than one story on someone with the flu who went to the doctor in
the morning. They said, yes, you have the flu, go home drink, you know, plenty of fluids, you'll be fine, and they were dead by night. That can
happen. And what I'm hearing from doctors who are treating COVID patients is that patients can look good, they may even look like they're getting
better and even recovering, and then they can take this dangerous turn.
And that brings me to the second point, Kate, which is related. We just heard Sanjay talk about how a healthy person's immune system can actually
work against them. So, the Prime Minister is 55. His immune system may be in great shape, that could, I'm not saying it is, but it could work against
him because the immune system just goes on this full-fledged battle. And it actually ends up reacting in ways that hurt the body. And that is really a
problem. It's called the cytokine storm, and it can set you up for a terrible situation. We hope that that is not the situation that he's in.
But it is important to remember that even though we're mostly or we're very much worried about elderly people, even younger people with healthy immune
systems, those immune systems can work against them.
BOLDUAN: And you guys, we have Megan Ranney still, Dr. Ranney still with us. I just have a quick question for her. Just bouncing off just what
Elizabeth was talking about, what contributes to this quick turn? What do you see in this?
RANNEY: So, we don't exactly know what causes the quick turn. There are a lot of theories out there. Some are like she described and as Dr. Gupta
described that there is this cytokine storm, that there's this sudden release of lots of chemicals within your body that create an enhanced
inflammatory condition. There's also some other hypotheses out there, some theories about what might cause this. Like maybe it's due to little micro
clots in your vasculature. We don't exactly know why some people are taking this very sudden turn for the worse. And we don't exactly know how to
predict who it's going to happen to or when it's going to happen.
But based on the description so far, it sounds like the Prime Minister has had a gradual decline. So again, I would suspect that he's having one of
those COVID-19 respiratory problems, these bilateral pneumonias or infiltrates in the lungs, that are probably hurting his ability to
oxygenate, and I hope that he's not experiencing that sudden inflammatory storm that we're seeing in some patients.
BOLDUAN: You know, Dr. Ranney, thank you very much. We're going to have much more on the breaking news coming up this hour, British Prime Minister
Boris Johnson, as we've been discussing, moved into the ICU. We're live in London with the very latest, next.
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