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Quest Means Business
Vaccine Makers To Likely Get Phase Three Day In Coming Months; Cigna Study: American Resilience Is At Risk; U.S. Vice Presidential Debate Reflects Workplace Challenges For Women; Michigan Governor Comments on Alleged Plot to Kidnap Her; Chaos as Trump Rejects Virtual Debate, Biden Rejects Delay; VP Candidates Spar over Trump Economic Record, Biden Tax Plan. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired October 08, 2020 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:00]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: It is Thursday. It's October 8th. I'm Richard Quest. And yes, I mean business.
Good evening, our full business agenda for you this evening, but we will be starting with the extraordinary F.B.I. announcements about a potential
kidnapping of the Governor of Michigan. Here's the Governor giving her response and more details.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): ... was joined by officials from the Department of Justice and the F.B.I. to announce state and Federal charges
against 13 members of two militia groups who were preparing to kidnap and possibly kill me.
When I put my hand on the Bible, and took the Oath of Office 22 months ago, I knew this job would be hard. But I'll be honest, I never could have
imagined anything like this.
I want to start by saying thank you to our law enforcement. Thank you to the fearless F.B.I. agents. And thank you to the brave Michigan State
Police Troopers who participated in this operation, acting under the leadership of Colonel Joe Gasper.
I also want to thank Attorney General Nessel and the U.S. Attorneys Berge and Schneider, and their teams for pursuing criminal charges that
hopefully, will lead to convictions, bringing these sick and depraved men to justice.
As a mom with two teenage daughters, and three step sons, my husband and I are eternally grateful to everyone who put themselves in harm's way to keep
our family safe.
2020 has been a hard year for all of us, hard for our doctors and nurses and truck drivers, grocery store workers. It's been hard for the teachers
and students and parents. Hard for those who have had to stay isolated to stay safe. And it's not over yet.
But here's what I know. We're Michiganders, we have grit, we have heart, and we are tough as hell.
We made it through the Great Recession. We made it through auto bankruptcies. We made it through floods and polar vortexes. But none of us
has faced a challenge like COVID-19, not in our lifetimes.
I've said it many times, we are not one another's enemy. This virus is our enemy. And this enemy is relentless.
It doesn't care if you're a Republican or a Democrat, young or old, rich or poor. It doesn't care if we're tired of it. It threatens us all -- our
lives, our families, our jobs, our businesses, our economy. It preys on our elderly and medically vulnerable residents, and it has exposed deep
inequities in our society.
This should be a moment for national unity, where we all pull together as Americans to meet this challenge head on with the same might and muscle
that put a man on the moon, seeing the humanity in one another, and doing our part to help our country get through this.
Instead, our Head of State has spent the past seven months denying science, ignoring his own health experts, stoking distrust, fomenting anger and
giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division.
Just last week, the President of the United States stood before the American people and refused to condemn white supremacists and hate groups
like these two Michigan militia groups. "Stand back and standby," he told them. "Stand back and stand by."
Hate groups heard the President's words not as a rebuke, but as a rallying cry, as a call to action. When our leaders speak, their words matter. They
carry weight.
When our leaders meet with, encourage, or fraternize with domestic terrorists, they legitimize their actions, and they are complicit. When
they stoke and contribute to hate speech, they are complicit.
In 1981, President Ronald Reagan spoke to the NAACP's annual convention, and his comments stand in sharp contrast to what we have seen on the
national and state level from his own beloved party in 2020.
He said, a few isolated groups and the backwater of American life still hold perverted notions of what America is all about.
Recently in some places in the nation, there's been a disturbing recurrence of bigotry and violence. Then Reagan sent a direct message to those who
still adhere to senseless racism and religious prejudice. "You are the ones who are out of step with our society," he said. "You are the ones who
willfully violate the meaning of the dream that is America."
[15:05:29]
WHITMER: "And this country, because of what it stands for, will not stand for your conduct."
So let me say this loud and clear: hatred, bigotry and violence have no place in the Great State of Michigan. If you break the law or conspire to
commit heinous acts of violence against anyone, we will find you. We will hold you accountable, and we will bring you to justice.
For the past seven months, I've made tough choices to keep our state safe. These have been gut wrenching decisions no governor has ever had to make.
And I get it, life has been hard for us all.
When I get out of bed every morning, I think about the high school seniors like my daughter, who miss graduation ceremonies, those Michiganders who
have missed weddings and funerals.
I think about all the moms who are working from home, making breakfast every day, logging their kids on to their Zoom class and doing the laundry.
I think about the small business owners who spent a lifetime building something great, who are now hanging on by their fingernails just to keep
the lights on.
The disruption this virus has caused to our daily lives is immeasurable, and it has already taken the lives of more than 210,000 Americans,
including over 6,800 right here in Michigan. As painful as these losses are, our hard work and sacrifices have saved thousands of lives.
We have one of the strongest economic recoveries in the nation. Make no mistake, there will be more hard days ahead. But I want the people of
Michigan to know this: as your Governor, I will never stop doing everything in my power to keep you and your families safe.
You don't have to agree with me. But I do ask one thing, never forget that we are all in this together. But show a little kindness and a lot more
empathy. Let's give one another a little grace and let's take care of each other.
Wear your mask. Stay six feet apart. Wash your hands frequently. And look out for your neighbors.
We are Michiganders. I know we can get through this. We will get through this.
So let's get through it together. Thank you.
QUEST: Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, giving no details really about the plot that the F.B.I. has uncovered, a plot of six men who have
been charged with attempting to overthrow the government in Michigan, the state government and elsewhere, but also of trying to kidnap her.
It was an undercover plot that's just come to light.
Facebook says they have been cooperating with the Federal authorities, and now we had the Governor who chose to speak more about COVID than the plot.
Andrew McCabe is with me, the former Deputy Director of the F.B.I., and CNN senior law enforcement analyst.
Andrew, you couldn't make this up. I mean, if you did, somebody would say it's unlikely. And you had a vivid imagination. What do we know was going
on here?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, first, thanks for having me on. Richard. It is truly an amazing peek into the very private
and secure world of extremism right here in our own backyard.
I know from my own experience, many years working exactly these sorts of cases in the F.B.I., working dozens and dozens of plots just like this,
that when you see the facts, when you see what people are saying and planning. It's so striking. You can't believe that this is actually
happening around us.
But the criminal complaint, the affidavit, so this is the statement from the F.B.I. agent that's presented to the judge to base the arrest warrants
on is remarkable in its detail. It indicates that the F.B.I. had multiple undercover agents, and what they refer to as CHS or Cooperating Human
Sources.
So the agents are, of course, you know, F.B.I. or law enforcement officers and the others are simply informants.
They were in the plot with these guys, and they recorded tons and tons of conversations. That's the best evidence you can possibly get. Some of those
conversation mentioned kidnapping the Governor either at work or at her home, using 200 or more like-minded associates to storm the state capitol.
[15:10:10]
MCCABE: They talked about shooting the Governor's house. They talked about shooting the Governor herself if she answered the door, just walking out
ringing the doorbell and shooting her when she answered the door.
They talked about planned escape routes, escaping via a boat across a lake near to her house. They talked about blowing up a bridge, in order to lay
the law enforcement response. Just remarkable conversations that indicate a very serious plot.
QUEST: And do you -- could you make a good stab at a guess as to how this came to the attention of the authorities? We heard of course, they are
saying that this is through social media. The F.B.I. became aware through social media groups of individuals, but from you're guessing, is it more
likely that an informant tipped them off?
MCCABE: Well, I mean, Richard, that's always a very good guess. They had to have been directed to these individual social media accounts by someone or
some technique and a human source is always a great way to do that.
But the Bureau is also very good at watching kind of the watering holes, if you will, those online resources and social media sites that draw in
extremists because they're drawn to that content and that sometimes gives them the ability to identify folks that they need to take a closer look at.
So there's all different sorts of ways, but the one thing you can say is that communications on social media, and the ability to observe and monitor
those communications is one of the most effective ways that the F.B.I. uncovers extremist activity in America.
QUEST: I was much taken when you said that you've seen lots of sort of similar plots in your time in your career at the head of law enforcement,
and my next question is not meant to, in any way sort of denigrate what these people are trying to do. But I want to get to how realistic are their
intentions in doing this?
It's still dreadful that they do it. But from your understanding of this particular plot or this particular action, was it a viable plot?
MCCABE: So, that's a great question, Richard. And to answer it, I should tell you that the F.B.I. reviews and investigates these plots based on two
factors. They try to assess whether or not the plotters have both the intent and the capability to conduct the sort of activity that they are
talking about.
You know, is this just kind of puffery and you know, braggadocio, people boasting to each other about what they want to do? Or are they actually --
have they set their minds to it? And can they pull it off?
From the details we know about this plot, I think it's absolutely clear that these folks had not only the intent, which we know about from their
own statements, but certainly the capability. They were purchasing helmets and night vision goggles. They were purchasing -- they made contacts to
purchase explosives. They were practicing tactical maneuvers, building practice bombs and detonating them in training exercises.
So this is not just a few guys talking to each other on the internet. These folks were moving, meeting in different states training and acquiring
materials to pull this off.
QUEST: Andrew, it is very good to have you. I think first time we've had you in your new role as our senior analyst on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I
assure you, sir, it will not be the last. Thank you very much.
MCCABE: Thank you. Thank you, Richard.
QUEST: Andrew McCabe, former Deputy F.B.I. Director joining me. Now, the status of the next presidential debate is very much in doubt after Donald
Trump said he would not take part in a virtual debate as mandated by the Commission on the Presidential Debates.
The organizers basically said it was simply too risky to have them in the same room at the same time, and so they changed the debate to a virtual
format because of the President's COVID.
Now Donald Trump says he won't participate. Biden says he would do a Town Hall without the President. Donald Trump is now saying he is going to
delay. Biden is rejecting a delay. You've really got to ask, what's going on?
Well, Donald Trump said a virtual debate is a waste of time.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I heard that the Commission a little while ago, change the debate style, and that's not acceptable to us.
I beat him easily in the first debate, according to the polls that I've seen, but I beat him easily and I felt I beat him easily. I think he felt
it, too.
No, I'm not going to waste my time in a virtual debate. That's not what debating is all about. You sit behind a computer and do a debate. It's
ridiculous.
And then they cut you off whenever they want.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
[15:15:06]
QUEST: Brian Stelter, our chief media correspondent. Oh, he gave away the last meat, didn't he? Right then, right at the end of that, Brian, "They
cut you off whenever they want."
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: I think this is a perfectly fine format to debate, Richard. I would debate you any day in these boxes.
This works just fine in television, but apparently not for President Trump.
He came out there at 8:00 a.m. Eastern Time and said he is not going to participate, and there have been developments every hour since then. The
very latest is that ABC has just announced a Town Hall, not a debate, a Town Hall with Joe Biden on the night the debate is scheduled next week.
So Trump already had one of these Town Halls on ABC, where he takes questions from audience members in Philly. Now, Biden says he will hold a
Town Hall on ABC, the same night the debate is scheduled.
He is essentially calling Trump's bluff saying, hey, we're going to take questions, even if you won't, and so he'll do it on ABC.
But this is still very much up in the air. Richard. ABC isn't even saying what time in the evening the Town Hall will happen. I think that is because
there is still a possibility. Maybe it's slim, but a possibility that Trump will come back to the table and say, okay, fine, I'll do a virtual debate.
Bottom line, Richard, Trump needs these debates more than Biden. Trump is losing. He needs the debates. He needs the big audience of the debates.
QUEST: Right. But, Brian, isn't this exactly the sort of thing that the critics say like that there is no respite. There's no daily relief. There
is no letting up of this exhaustion -- exhaustive procedure.
So yesterday, we have, you know, one minute it's withdrawing stimulus negotiations; next minute, it's we're going to have stimulus, and we're
going to have a standby, and we're going to have standalones. Today it is, I'm not going to, virtually -- I mean, this is exhausting.
STELTER: Right. It's like it's fighting just for fighting's sake. It's like trying to punch the air. It is ridiculous.
But you're right. It is a daily occurrence. The President this morning also said that Kamala Harris is a monster. What a hateful thing to say. You
know, there's all of that kind of daily rhetoric that does exhaust most voters.
But you know what, Richard, people in the country are still paying attention. Americans are still wired into this election. Last night's VP
debate, which is normally an afterthought in a presidential cycle, more than 50 million people watch the VP debate that's up from about 35 million,
four years ago.
So there's all these data points that show us no matter how exhausting this is, people are still paying attention.
QUEST: Brian Stelter, chief media. Thank you, Brian. I appreciate it.
STELTER: Thank you.
QUEST: After the break, the question of vaccine, Kamala Harris last night said she would take the vaccine but not if Donald Trump, on the basis of
his recommendation.
Moderna's Chairman will be with us and we will understand exactly how quickly and how close everybody really is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:20:22]
QUEST: Last night, the vice presidential debate took place between Kamala Harris and Vice President Mike Pence, and it wasn't exactly friendly, at
least, it was certainly more decorous than the Presidential Debate.
There are one or two moments where they got testy with each other, but otherwise, it was a model of how these things perhaps should be done.
Mike Pence defended Donald Trump's economic record; Kamala Harris claimed U.S. is s losing the China trade war. They both argued mightily over Joe
Biden's tax plan over whether or not he will raise taxes on ordinary people.
The Vice President said that next year will be the best year in U.S. economic history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Joe Biden says democracy is on the ballot. Make no mistake about it, Susan, the American economy,
the American comeback is on the ballot. With four more years of growth and opportunity ...
SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "U.S.A. TODAY": Thank you, sir.
PENCE: ... four more years of President Donald Trump, 2021 will be the ...
PAGE: Thank you, Vice President.
PENCE: ... biggest economic year in the history of this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: And there you hear the thank you, Senator -- sorry, thank you, Vice President. Thank you. Thank you, as the moderator tried to keep him quiet
or at least tell him his time was up. It was a vain attempt on both, frankly, the Vice President and Senator Harris.
On the question of the economic situation, the Vice President's optimism is not borne out by the data as we look at it. The recovery is slow and
continues to be slow, 840,000 first time unemployment claims, but those as you heard last night on this program from Mohamed El-Erian saying a double
dip recession is now more possible without a stimulus plan.
Kevin Hassett is with me, the former Chair of President Trump's Council on Economic Advisers. He joins me now.
Kevin, you said earlier this week, I want to quote you, you said, "With so many businesses still close around the country, we remain close to the edge
of an economic calamity." I don't think anyone would disagree. But if we are close to the economic calamity, why did President Trump withdraw his
negotiators on the stimulus -- only to then do a tweet after tweet after tweet on standalones?
KEVIN HASSETT, CNN ECONOMIC COMMENTATOR: Well, and then he wound that back a little bit, Richard. And by the way, I want you to moderate one of those
debates. I think you'd be great at it.
And you know, I think that if we go back to what I -- you know, I went into the White House a second time as senior adviser to the President and I
worked on the economic recovery plans and really thought back in June when I when I left the Phase 4 deal was a done deal.
But basically what happened was that the House had some objectives that they wanted, including really, really big transfers to blue states, and
they wouldn't budge on those things. And basically, Mitch McConnell told the President that he couldn't get, you know, those things through the
Senate, and so the whole thing sort of got frozen.
But I think the President wants a stimulus, I think Speaker Pelosi wants to stimulus and they can agree on the details. And I think that you're right,
that that quote that I gave was correct, that I think we are on the precipice of potentially an economic calamity.
But the fact is that because we turned the economy off, you know, second quarter GDP was going to be minus 30, minus 40. I think before I went back
to the White House, I was saying that already in February here on CNN, and then the third quarter is going to be plus 25, plus 30, something like
that, which is going to leave us, you know, minus five in terms of five percent, about five percent below where we started the year, probably
something like that.
And so that minus five percent is about as big a negative shock as you're ever going to see. If it just happened, you know, this quarter, then we
would be talking about an economic emergency stimulus package.
QUEST: Right.
HASSETT: But they're not because I think they're in some sense lulled by the recovery that we've seen in the numbers between the spring and now. But
to be sure, and by the fourth quarter, I think everyone is going to recognize the need for another stimulus.
QUEST: But what worries me is away from the -- I mean, you're right in terms of the -- you go down, you come back up again, and because it was an
artificial closing, there's a lot of recovery that is built into the V- shape.
What worries me is if you like the deep underbelly of all of this, you know, the block where I live on the next block, there is only one shop
still in business. The deli is gone. The dry cleaners have gone. This has gone and that, and that's surely -- it's never really fully reflected in
the figures for some time to come.
[15:25:00]
HASSETT: Yes, that's right and what's been going on is that, remember, you know back in March, we had top medical officials telling us that when it
got warmer, that the coronavirus would disappear for the summer, and then it would come back during the flu season.
And so our businesses were basically holding on until the summer, and I think right now, they are trying to hold on and with the belief of a
vaccine or you know, a really big expansion of testing comes, and that'll allow things to open back up.
But pretty soon, you know, if you look at the home base data, which I know you follow all the real time stuff closely, the home base data is saying
that say here in D.C., 40 percent of businesses are close, probably the most famous bar in D.C., the Capitol Lounge just went out of business, and
there's going to be a wave of those things unless really we get the economy open, because we have a vaccine, or we have enough testing to do so more
safely than we're doing right now.
And even a really, really big stimulus at some point isn't going to be able to save us if we continue to be -- you go to downtown D.C. right now,
Richard, that they've got plywood on most of the businesses, you know, and you just can't keep that up for a year.
QUEST: But what I can't see, what I can't understand, and I'm guessing we're sort of in agreement on the economic peril that's out there, or at
least the way it's looking, what I continually cannot understand and this may not be the question for you, but you'll get it anyway. What I cannot
understand, Kevin, is how politicians can abrogate their responsibilities when they are overlooking that cliff, and they get a paycheck, but millions
don't.
HASSETT: Right. That's right. And, you know, I think that the crucial factor right now is that the House won't budge on, you know, bailouts for
states. They give them way more money than the revenue shortfall this year.
By one of my estimates, before I left the White House, they were asking for five times as much money as states were going to be short because of the
pandemic recession. And they also won't budge on liability protection. So when the businesses on your block reopen, that if somebody gets COVID, when
they go to get a meal that they can't sue the business and put them out of business.
And I think that since they won't do that, then the Republicans basically, you know, already are wary of taking it, but also Mitch McConnell has some
-- you know, managed a big coalition of people, many of whom are budget hawks, and think that the stimulus already was too expensive.
And so it's, you know, politics is a very difficult thing to manage by a person like Mitch McConnell, or Nancy Pelosi or the President. And, you
know, if Mitch and Nancy and the President got together and agreed to a stimulus bill, there's no guarantee that it would pass either House. And
that's really, I think, ultimately, the problem.
QUEST: All right. Kevin, it is good to talk to you. Sensible economics. Thank you.
HASSETT: It's great to be back, Richard. Good to see you.
QUEST: Appreciate again your time. It's always good time. Thank you very much.
When we come back after the break, the vaccine, the core question of a vaccine. Moderna says it's going to have one sooner rather than later.
And the W.T.O., a woman will lead the W.T.O. That's the World Trade Organization. You'll hear from both of the finalists after the break.
This is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. Good evening to you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:30:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN. More people get their news from CNN than any other news source.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. A lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS coming to just a moment.
We'll have both candidates, both finalists I should say, for the head of the World Trade Organization, the number has been whittled down to two. And
from that, we will hear from both of them.
And also, the head of Cigna. One aspect of the public health crisis. Is it the wearing down of resilience? It may sound obvious but when you think of
what resilience means, well, the CEO of Cigna will be with us to talk about that.
It'll all come after we've heard from the news headlines because this is CNN and on this network the news always comes first.
The FBI says it's arrested six men who are suspected of plotting to kidnap the Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. According to court documents, it
says the investigators learned about the alleged scheme on social media. It says the men discussed overthrowing several state governments and wanted to
put Whitmer on trial for treason.
Hurricane Delta is gaining strength there of the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Forecasters say it could become a Category 3 storm later on
Thursday or early Friday. Delta's changing course slightly, it's now predicted to strike parts of Louisiana and Texas.
A huge fire has engulfed multiple floors of a 33 floor apartment building in Ulsan in South Korea. Firefighters are working to get the fire under
control. The Ulsan Fire Department says at least 15 people have been taken to hospital for smoke inhalation.
COVID was the first topic on last night's vice presidential debate and while the two did not agree in any way on the handling. When it came to the
question of whether you would take a vaccine, Kamala Harris was quite clear, she would if the experts said so, but not if Donald Trump was the
only one giving the stamp of approval.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine if the vaccine emerges during the Trump
administration, I think is unconscionable.
And Senator, I just ask you, stop playing politics with people's lives. The reality is that we will have a vaccine we believe before the end of this
year, and it will have the capacity to save countless American lives and your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is just -- it's just
unacceptable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Noubar Afeyan, is the CEO of the Flagship Pioneering, incubator underpinning Moderna joins me now.
So, let me ask you the question because I'm confused. And I'm not sure it makes a difference whether we have a vaccine in December or January at this
particular point. But when do you think realistically, a vaccine is going to be approved for use in the general public?
NOUBAR AFEYAN, FOUNDER AND CEO, FLAGSHIP PIONEERING: Richard, thanks for having me on today.
You're right in that the timing of these announcements versus when a large quantity of vaccine will be available is getting mixed up a bit in the
conversation today, particularly in political season.
We have said that our expectation is that in the Q1 into Q2 timeframe of 2021, that we expect larger amounts of vaccines to be available from
multiple sources potentially and that that will be the earliest where we expect FDA to grant an approval, a full approval.
Before then, as we've all heard, there's a mechanism of emergency use authorization, which might well enough enable millions of doses over time
to be available, but the ultimate approval process we see happening in the first to second quarter of next year.
[15:35:23]
QUEST: With that in mind, I mean, are you -- the vaccine, even though they're in late stage three trials, to ensure that there is enough of the
stuff, I imagine it's being produced even now in large quantities, so that when the vaccine stage threes are finished, it's ready to go?
AFEYAN: Yes, I can speak on our on -- our behalf at Moderna, we have said publicly that we expect some 20, 25 million doses to be available before
the end of this year, and upwards of 500 million to perhaps a billion doses produced next year.
In addition to us, there are several other large pharmaceutical companies producing similar quantities. And this is all due to the unprecedented
investment that was made in particular through the U.S. government and as well other governments in enabling production of vaccines even before we
could demonstrate efficacy and safety needed to administer them. Because have we waited, we would have in fact, waited for three years to have
adequate supplies.
QUEST: In terms of the humanitarian efforts in places like Armenia, you've been extremely heavily involved. And I realized that obviously, you know,
the vaccine as an -- as of when reading, for those who are suffering cannot just be a rich countries game, as I say, for your -- for your humanitarian
effort.
AFEYAN: Indeed, I'm glad to see that across the world, there are efforts of countries collaborating, as well as foundations to put together a coalition
that can supply to mid to lower income countries, supplies, abundant supplies at affordable costs. And Moderna as our other companies are
participating in that and we definitely don't see this problem being resolved by only a portion of the world having access to vaccines.
So indeed, this is part of a -- it's a global pandemic, we need global solutions. I think of it as the entire humanity's immune system has to be
able to record and fight back against this virus, whether it's through infection, or through a vaccine, and we need to keep working till we get
there.
QUEST: One final thought, how -- I do -- and I'm confused and understanding when the vaccines available, and those people who don't take it, either
because they're anti-vaccines, or whatever. Does that make a difference? Or should the rest of us just turn around and say, you know, we're vaccinated,
we're alright, you had your choice, you didn't do it, if you get sick, it's up to you?
AFEYAN: It would be tough to say the latter only because we share a common planet and we share common cities and streets and offices. And at the end
of the day, we do need to be caring about everybody's health. The reality is we can't force anybody to do something they don't want to do.
But that would be the same as crossing the street without looking either way. And even adjusting in which way the direction of traffic is depending
on the country. And if you see people doing that, you probably would speak up and say, look, this isn't -- this is a risk that you're taking over and
above what is prudent.
And I think over time, Richard, the science, the data, the adoption of the vaccine, in this case, as has been in the past, will cause people to gain
the confidence that as between facing a bit of a Russian Roulette of when you can get it and how severely versus protecting yourself.
Vaccines have long been the most cost effective public health measure. And I think is this will not be a different scenario here.
QUEST: Sir, you and your company and Moderna doing -- I mean, unbelievable work trying to get a vaccine as fast as possible, as safely as possible.
And we're grateful that you've taken time to talk to us on the program. Thank you, Sir.
Now, as we carry on 2020, well, you've heard it a million times from a thousand people, a year like none other. But what we need to understand is
what I said earlier about it all being exhausting exhausting and the worry and the vaccines, the resilience effect. How all this wears us down to the
point where we're neither productive nor healthy. The head of Cigna's with me after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:40:19]
QUEST: The CDC is now saying or projecting 233,000 deaths in the United States by the end of this month. If you look at the way the major
continents are, as the second wave appears to be grabbing hold, you see Europe is that yellow one, very sharp rise in seven-day moving average in
recent weeks for new cases. Asia in blue, starting to see a drop from the strict measures that have been put in place.
And on a per capita basis, the U.S. is in the red, again, following -- leading folowling by Latin America and Europe.
Now, as we are months into this disease, there's clearly public fatigue is setting in. A new study by Cigna for young people and for those who are
students, really shows the measures and the toll that it's taking. Not only physical, but social justice, emotional issues and it leads the fact that
our resilience at risk.
The CEO of Cigna is David Cordani, and he's with me now. David, I guess I'm not surprised that our resilience is at risk if we keep getting hit over
the head by bad news for seven months straight or catastrophe, catastrophic news. But why is it significant?
DAVID CORDANI, CEO, CIGNA: Good to be with you today. Why it's significant for us, we're a global health service company. And so, we exist to be
champions for our customers and our communities.
And so, overall health and well being ties to how someone feels the mind body connection. So, we commissioned this study, and the findings were
rather startling. Our need to understand that, whether it's for our youth as you articulate who go through a natural decline and resilience, it
bottoms out, and then ultimately after the age of 2023 starts to come back up, or those who are working who have dislocation from a work standpoint,
the resilience goes down and has an effect on mind and ultimately body from that standpoint.
So, it's relevant in terms of helping individuals, A. recognize the challenge, and then B. providing new tools and services to be able to
better deal when there's challenges relative to resilience. And as a global health service company, we challenge ourselves to do that, because we're
helping our customers and clients every day around the world.
QUEST: Right, I get it now. I think possibly and having done cover this since the beginning without working from home series and similar things
that haven't had COVID myself. I think also this emotional and mental aspect and what we might call what is being called the long COVID but I
don't know what you do about it. These All facts and situations, so how can a healthcare company help?
[15:45:00]
CORDANI: So, I appreciate the way you framed it and I think you framed it wonderfully. The challenging environment, first, we have to recognize what
the problem is. Second is then we have to say what's within one's control. So, tied to resilience, we launched a framework in terms of grow forth.
So, first off, ground yourself in reality. Secondly, recognize what's within your control. Third, organize the resources that can help you and
then ultimately work within the community, both the virtual and physical community relative to other resources, friends, family and others from that
standpoint.
We have Cigna's resiliency.com has the additional tools and services. That's an example but it starts with recognition, having a different
conversation, and then expanding your use of resources around to helping to deal with your own mental well being, which guide your physical well being.
QUEST: David, do you think we are looking at -- well, first of all, do you think as Kamala Harris suggested last night, that if you've had COVID in
the future, health insurers may well regard it as a pre-existing condition? Bearing in mind, what we are now learning of the neurological, the blood
clots, the long COVID, is it likely COVID becomes pre-existing?
CORDANI: No, I don't believe so. So, let's put it into a U.S. context. 330 million people in the United States plus or minus, Medicare does not take
into consideration pre-existing conditions, Medicaid does not take into consideration pre-existing conditions.
Before the ACA, the vast majority of employer programs did not take into consideration relative to pre-existing conditions, we've now evolve to a
state where pre-existing conditions is not a fundamental way in which the services are rendered.
So, I don't believe that's going to be an issue from that standpoint. A responsible health service companies have expanded their services around
that for quite a long period of time. And COVID will not be deemed to be a pre-existing condition.
Let's look at it the other way, Richard, we stepped forward and covered all testing. As long as the doctor called for -- we actually stepped forward
and covered the cost for treatment as well for individuals to provide that peace of mind. And we're working within our communities to go the other way
to expand services and expand access surrounding it. But no, I do not believe COVID would be deemed to be a pre-existing condition.
QUEST: David, please, let's agree that you and I can speak before the end of the year again. I know you're a busy man, but hopefully you'll make time
to speak to us because I'm -- you know, on this program, we're very interested in this question of the long COVID and what's likely to happen.
I'm grateful.
CORDANI: I look forward to it Richard.
QUEST: -- joined us tonight. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
CORDANI: Thank you.
QUEST: Two words, I'm speaking. And with that they went into the lexicon of vice presidential and presidential debates. I'm speaking and you're not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:50:38]
QUEST: Last night, for many women across the world, there was a moment in the debate when Vice President Pence attempt -- well, it didn't attempt,
interrupted Senator Harris. Her response was quick and to the point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This isn't -- this is important. And I want to add --
PENCE: Susan, I have to weigh in here.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking.
PENCE: I have to weigh in.
HARRIS: I'm speaking.
PENCE: Repeal the Trump tax cuts.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking. I'm speaking.
If you don't mind letting me finish, we can then have a conversation, OK?
PENCE: Please.
HARRIS: OK.
Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking. I'm speaking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: It's a familiar feeling for many women. Research shows that men do 75 percent of the talking in meetings and according during pandemics, 45
percent of woman said, difficult to speak up in virtual meetings.
Moira Forbes is with me, the publisher of Forbes Women, and the executive vice president of Forbes Media.
Alright, I'm on thin ice here because a man talking about this. Got me. We hadn't even started and you got me. Moira, OK, let's just go for this.
Moira, when she said that last night. I'm speaking, I'm speaking. Did you interpret that in the way that many are interpreting today? Or did you just
see the senator telling the vice president to shut up?
MOIRA FORBES, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, FORBES MEDIA: I think what I saw what many women have experienced time and time again. And that is the
constant need to understand how to calibrate more forceful emotions. And the fact that women continue to walk a really tenuous tightrope when it
comes to being in positions of power, or aspiring to power. Emotions are read very, very differently, interpreted very differently. Last night
showed that not all interruptions are going to be interpreted the same way.
If a woman were to forcefully interject, it would be seen as emotional or volatile. Whereas a man, it's seen as powerful and confident. And I was
really happy though, today that that type of conversation came to the surface.
QUEST: So, as a man, tell me what I need to learn from what we saw last night, because I'm probably guilty as anybody else, but I'm not doing it
with malice or intent.
FORBES: And I think that's a really important point to make, you know, not all of these moments are people intentionally trying to subdue someone's
voice or interject a forceful manner. But I think the first and most important thing, Richard, is just having these types of conversations and
be more sensitive to the fact that when you have different perspectives in the room, it's not enough just to have a seat at the table, it's not enough
to have a voice at the table, you have to be heard.
And when you have different communication styles, or when they're read very, very differently, and I say this, again, women's behaviors
interpreted very very differently than men.
I think we all need to be much more conscious of those biases that we're bringing into these conversations.
QUEST: And finally, related to this, the way in which this will have been perceived, do you think this was a black eye for Mike Pence with women
voters?
FORBES: I don't think it was a black eye. I think he was also very measured and respectful. I think it more brought to the surface very different
communication styles and the fact that they were much more customed to men interrupting, men often are themselves more customed to doing it as well.
And so, I don't necessarily saw it as aggressive behavior. I don't think it was something that was specifically forceful in the manner to that some.
And some may perceive it, but I think it brought to the surface a conversation that we wouldn't have been having the last election cycle, and
that is the ways in which women in positions of power are perceived differently.
And if we don't have more women at the seat of the table, if their voices aren't being heard, we're not going to be able to fully leverage the power
of those diverse perspectives.
QUEST: Moira, thankfully, you ended gracefully and on time, so I was not forced into the uncomfortable position of having to interrupt.
[15:55:04]
FORBES: Well, Richard, you can interrupt me at any time. If there's one person who I'd never mind doing it, it's you. Thank you so much for having
me.
QUEST: Oh, you're too kind. Thank you so much. Moira Forbes joining us there and always welcome on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. What a program tonight.
What an absolute talk of the show. We'll have a Profitable Moment after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Tonight's Profitable Moment. I listened very carefully and I've read widely today on the whole debate over I'm speaking. I come to this slightly
unusually because I grew up in a house with three sisters. So it was always the reverse. I was always bashing my way to try and get a word in edgeways
with them one way or another.
So, when I came to this whole question of whether or not and how and what with listening, it became different. And I listened last night to what
Kamala Harris was saying very carefully. And I took on board today, the discussion and the dispute that they're having over what the vice president
did.
But, if I can put it from a sort of a man's point of view, even somebody who has been well used to this, the difficulty is knowing where to go with
it.
It's fine when you have an event last night, when it's so clear cut that the vice president was mansplaining if you like. I always remember Theresa
May in the commons talking to the opposition leader about that.
But how do we do it on a daily basis when we're on those conference calls? When we're in that environment, when you've just got to get it right? When
you know that the comment you make might be erroneously perceived -- or you don't even realize the common you make is being erroneously perceived. And
this is where we come back to the whole question of cultural awareness. Be more sensitive.
This doesn't mean we all have to become lily-livered cowards, always looking over our shoulders, afraid of being too politically correct or
otherwise. It simply means taking care, making sure, looking carefully, that what I'm about to do, and I'll use the I word, what I am about to do
is not going to adversely affect deliberately somebody else. That's it. That's it. I'm speaking.
And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in New York. Whatever you're up to in the house ahead, let's have two, I hope it's
profitable. The closing bells about to ring, the day is done.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And welcome to our second hour of "THE LEAD". I'm Jake Tapper and we begin.
END
