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Quest Means Business
Scale of Suspected Russian Hack on U.S. Government, Companies Widen; Joe Biden to Receive Pfizer-BioNTech Vaccine Monday; Skepticism in Europe ahead of Vaccine Rollout; U.K. Brexit Deal And U.S. Stimulus Package Undecided; Cyberpunk 2077 Launch A Huge Glitch; Economy, Pandemic And Personal Freedoms Focus Of 2021. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired December 18, 2020 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:00]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS HOST: Those are the markets or that is the market and this is the day.
Microsoft is calling for swift action, as it's caught up in this giant cyberattack on the United States government and companies.
Two billion vaccine doses secured for the developing world. I'll speak to the head of UNICEF.
And hours away from a U.S. government shutdown potentially, and lawmakers are stuck in recess.
We are live in New York on Friday. It's December the 18th. I am Richard Quest and even on a Friday, at the end of the week, I mean business.
Good evening. Tonight, Microsoft is calling it a moment of reckoning, a cyberattack on the United States government that's simply growing in scale
with more details showing how far and wide. Experts now suspect Russian hackers launched the attack -- wait for this -- in early March and it is
still ongoing.
So hostile actors have been spying inside key U.S. agencies, as well as hundreds of the world's biggest companies throughout the coronavirus
pandemic.
Alex Marquardt is following these developments. For the first time, Alex, I'm starting to hear sort of outrage bordering on panic by various people,
except the President that is who hasn't said anything about this that I can see. What's happening since we spoke yesterday?
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, outrage because something like this was allowed to happen; panic, because we still
don't know the full extent of the damage. We are learning a little bit more day by day.
For example, in the past 24 hours, we've added the State Department and the Energy Department to the list of Federal agencies and departments that have
been compromised in the attack. But we are far, far from knowing the full extent of the intrusion, what the attackers were able to see and what
they're able to spy on.
And Richard, that really does speak to the sophistication of this attack that we do believe is linked to the Russian intelligence services. Adding
to the alarm, we have a new alert from the U.S. cyber agency, which is known as CISA. They said that there is a grave risk to all levels of
government from the Federal government on down to the local government, as well as critical infrastructure and private companies.
And that in addition to how we understand so far, these hackers having gotten in through a software update from the company SolarWinds, CISA is
saying that there were other ways that they got in as well that are being investigated, that there are other techniques and procedures that were used
that have not yet been revealed.
There are 18,000 clients of SolarWinds who are using that software, which means that there are many, many potential victims. You mentioned Microsoft,
they said that they have reached out to some 40 victims who were especially compromised, and Microsoft is warning that this list is going to grow and
that the number of countries where these companies are is going to grow as well -- Richard.
QUEST: Yes, someone is going to have to clear up the mess. That someone will be obviously the next President Joe Biden. This is what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: To be held accountable.
QUESTION: Can you give us an appetizer of what that accountability might be?
BIDEN: Individuals, as well as entities will be fined. They have -- there's financial repercussions for what they did, the ability to access a lot and
we have to invest a lot more money in cyber.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: I mean, he is starting on the back foot, if only because the current administration having sort of presided over this doesn't seem to be taking
-- doing much to do -- I don't know. It seems like we're not hearing from the right people about the severity of the situation.
MARQUARDT: Well, we're not hearing from the right person. We're not hearing from Donald Trump, the current President of the United States. This is just
stunning, Richard.
We learned about this on Sunday night and have yet to hear from the current President. So now, we have the future President who is thumping his chest.
He put out a statement yesterday saying he will not stand idly by in the face of these cyber assaults.
But that quote -- the soundbite that you just played there, he is starting from a place of sanctions, whereas there are a lot of people both in the
private sector, including some strong language from Microsoft and people on Capitol Hill who are talking about a much more forceful reaction.
One of the senators from Illinois, Dick Durbin was talking about it being an act of war. So I think the Biden camp is going to have to figure out as
we all are the extent to this damage to figure out what their response will be.
The fact of the matter is, as one cyber expert just put it to me a short time ago, this is the kind of thing that the U.S. would like to be doing in
Russia. This is an extraordinary espionage campaign.
[15:05:09]
MARQUARDT: So if the U.S. then goes out and carries out significant -- a significant response against Russia, they might expect the same. The U.S.
might expect the same thing down the road. So they have to tread carefully, and as we've been saying, for the past several days, it is a matter of
figuring out exactly the damage that was done, the access that these Russian hackers got.
QUEST: Alex, thank you. Alex Marquardt there. The attack began by targeting security firms. Much of what we're learning revolves around this company,
SolarWinds. It's a network monitoring company, and a dominant force in the IT industry. You heard Alex say, 18,000 clients.'
Now hackers gained access to that company's clients, 18,000 of them, and that includes hundreds of Fortune 500 companies. Microsoft says they were
compromised. Targets include several U.S. government agencies, the State Department is the latest to confirm it was breached. A host of others,
including Energy, for example, managing the nuclear stockpile, but that's not believed to be at risk.
Michael Daniel is the White House Cybersecurity Coordinator for President Obama. He heads now the Cyber Threat Alliance joins me from Washington.
Michael, thank you. Forgive me, we take this slowly and sort of bit by bit, so that I understand. First of all, what were these hackers looking for? I
mean, they weren't just going in -- and when we're talking about hacking into companies, they weren't looking for accounts receivable, or the latest
HR documents. So what is it they wanted?
MICHAEL DANIEL, PRESIDENT, CYBER THREAT ALLIANCE: Well, in this case, what you can see is that this is a very broad-based espionage campaign. So to
some extent, they probably didn't know exactly what they were looking for when they first went in, but they're looking of anything that could
indicate policy relevance. So that's why they were interested in the U.S. government agencies, but also potentially, it could be companies that were
interested in doing business, potentially in Russia, or they might have been looking at, you know, vaccine manufacturing, anything that would be of
intelligence value to a foreign government.
QUEST: And when you go in and you start this trolling, don't you end up with so much in the net? How do you sift? So I mean, if you're back in
Moscow or in St. Petersburg, or whichever parts of the country it is and you've got this vast amount of data coming in, and you're looking in real
time? How do you manage that?
DANIEL: Well, it's actually quite a difficult task and that's why Intelligence Agencies all over the world have invested tremendous amounts
of money in trying to do exactly that kind of analysis, and learning how to use the tools of Big Data and other things to try to sift through those
mounds of data that you pull back.
The other thing is you actually try to be more selective about what you do pull back. You create a feedback loop so that you learn what you want to
target, specifically, who you want to target specifically, and ignore some of the other parts of it. So you aren't pulling back nearly as much data.
But it is a very significant challenge.
QUEST: How does this happen? I mean, I can sort of see how my e-mail account gets hacked, and I can sort of see how even, you know, my bank, or
my credit card. But how does this happen, when supposedly, hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars are spent on cybersecurity defenses?
DANIEL: Well, the truth is that if you face an adversary who is dedicated, who is patient, who is willing to invest time and money to poke at all of
the different places, to think of all the different ways that they can get in, it is actually almost impossible to keep a dedicated adversary out for
forever.
And instead, you really have to think about not only how you make it as hard as possible for that adversary in the first place, but then to also
create as many different ways to trip them up, you know, once they are in, and then be able to respond quickly when they do succeed.
QUEST: You know, we've had so many hacks. It's very difficult for the layman to judge the severity, the hyperbole from the reality. So, so give
me -- let me look at your title. You're the former Special Assistant to President Obama, former Cybersecurity Coordinator in the National Security
Council.
Now, with your credentials, give me a realistic view on how serious this is.
DANIEL: Well, I would say that this is probably one of the most broad based and damaging espionage campaigns that I've ever seen. It will certainly
rank up there in the top few breaches that we've seen.
You know, the damage on this as the former reporter you were speaking to was indicating, it's going to take us a very long time to fully understand
the scope, the scale and the damage of this incident.
QUEST: Michael, thank you very much. It's a somber note upon which to end an interview on a Friday. But we will talk more as we get more details. I'm
grateful for your time. Thank you.
[15:10:16]
QUEST: Now, from hacking to the virus. We're waiting on the U.S. Federal Drug Administration, the F.D.A. to make its decision about Moderna. A
member of its advisory panel next who actually voted against the Pfizer vaccine, but that was on other grounds. We'll talk to the doctor after the
break to see if she is in favor of Moderna.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Now as you and I are speaking tonight, the F.D.A. is deciding whether to authorize Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine for emergency use. It got
the greenlight to consider this by the safety committee on Thursday.
People in the U.S. could start getting it as soon as Monday. This will be America's second vaccine. And unlike Pfizer's and BioNTech, it can be
stored in a normal freezer and it doesn't need to be shipped at super cold temperatures.
President-elect Joe Biden and his wife Jill -- Dr. Jill -- are set to get their first shots of the Pfizer vaccine on Monday. Earlier, it was Vice
President Pence who became the top ranking member of the Trump administration to get vaccinated.
That's the vice President getting it and oh, there's our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our chief medical correspondent, suitably in his scrubs and he got
his shot around the same time. It was happening. Squeamish look away, and the doctor said it all went very well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Is it in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's done.
GUPTA: It's done. You are really good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's good. That's good.
GUPTA: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anytime. All right.
GUPTA: Do you get thanked a lot for jabbing somebody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do, actually.
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, seriously. Thank you very much, Mary Katherine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're very welcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Dr. Sanjay Gupta has had the first one. Of course, he will need the second in three weeks. So now throughout the week, guests on QUEST MEANS
BUSINESS have told you, public confidence is key to a successful rollout.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL FERGUSON, FORMER U.K. GOVERNMENT ADVISER ON COVID-19: We would probably require somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of the population to
be immunized to have -- basically give herd immunity to stop this epidemic transmitting at least for a while.
DR. JOSE ROMERO, CHAIR, C.D.C. ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES: Our early surveys suggested that there was a significant
population that weren't comfortable being the first to receive it, but I've been very, very pleasantly surprised by the number of individuals that have
stepped forward.
[15:15:10]
ARANCHA GONZALEZ LAYA, SPANISH FOREIGN MINISTER: I think that if we do this following proper procedure, we will generate trust for our citizens, and at
the end of the day, trust is a very important ingredient when you're talking about vaccines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Trust is an important aspect, and when we you see that Dr. Archana Chatterjee, one of those responsible for that trust, the member of the
F.D.A. advisory panel, and Dean at Chicago Medical School. Doctor, it is good to see you. Thank you.
You know, I was thinking about this. I sort of think when I hear that the F.D.A. or this committee or that committee is going to vote in favor, I
think, of course, they're going to vote in favor. I can hardly see them not voting in the middle of such a crisis.
So is it just a -- I mean, I know you voted against the Pfizer one on the grounds of the age of 16 and 17. But essentially, you were in favor of
Pfizer. You're in favor of Madonna. Is it just a question of -- oh, just get on with it.
DR. ARANCHA CHATTERJEE, DEAN, CHICAGO MEDICAL CENTER: Not necessarily, Richard. I think the important thing that the public needs to know is that
this is an independent committee composed of experts in vaccinology, in infectious diseases, in immunology, in statistics, and each of us takes our
role on this committee very seriously, and makes sure that we understand the risks and benefits.
And then after discussion, vote according to what we believe is in the best interest of the public, whether this vaccine should be authorized or not.
QUEST: Now assume for purposes of this question that your vote on Pfizer would have been a casting vote. Let's say it was finely balanced, would you
still have voted the same way on this 16 to 17, thus denying all those who have since had it, the vaccine?
CHATTERJEE: I think for the 16 and 17-year-olds, the concerns that I have stated publicly before, which is that I felt the data were insufficient as
presented to us.
Obviously, several of my fellow committee members talk differently and voted differently. It had to do with the data that were available, the fact
that these folks are not in the high risk priority group at this time, and that they don't make their own medical decisions themselves.
And so those were the reasons for which I voted no for the 16 and 17-year- olds. I would have voted yes if I'd had the opportunity for 18 and above for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.
QUEST: So with this fascinating moment, where the U.S. will have to, I mean, essentially, this is going to be the -- the EUA will be agreed and
approved, and yet the statistics still show, 30 possibly up to 50 percent in some places, like in France, still are suspicious about this vaccine.
Does it help when people like the Vice President and Sanjay Gupta -- does it help when they take it?
CHATTERJEE: I'm not sure that I'm the right person to answer that question, Richard. But I would say in general, anything that builds trust and
confidence, as you were talking about earlier, in the vaccination program, is going to be essential for these vaccines to be successful.
As has been said by many people before me, vaccines don't stop pandemics, vaccinations do, and we need people to take the vaccinations in order for
the program to be successful in bringing this pandemic to a halt.
QUEST: And when we look at, for example, the AstraZeneca, which is coming in, I'm not asking you to preview your vote, although you wish you'd be
happy to do so. Is it likely that AstraZeneca is going to have a bit of a tougher time because of their problems over first the half dose and the
full dose and then the half dose? Does that create, not a warning light, but a caution for you.
CHATTERJEE: I am afraid I can't speak about AstraZeneca's vaccine at this point in time because I haven't seen any of the documentation related to
that. I've only seen media reports and typically, I do not comment based on those.
QUEST: You can't blame a person for trying, Doctor. Good to have you. Thank you for joining us. I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
CHATTERJEE: Thank you very much, Richard.
QUEST: Exactly the point that I was talking about with Dr. Chatterjee, this question of trust, and the way in which people have suspicions even though
it seems to be quite open the way people are taking it.
Vaccinations in Europe are expected to begin shortly after Christmas. The Commission has placed an order for two billion doses. The problem for the
E.U. is whether enough people actually want to take it. In Paris, our correspondent is Melissa Bell.
[15:20:05]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With infection rates in France and other European countries out of control, hope is just around the
corner. With the E.U. just started its vaccination campaign on December 27th, but may not be that easy.
ARANCHA GONZALEZ LAYA, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think vaccination is a question of trust. This is why in Spain we are spending a lot of time and
energy in building trust with the citizens.
BELL (voice over): Hence this TV campaign to convince the reluctant, with polls showing only 41 percent of Spaniards currently intending to get the
vaccine.
In Italy, the figure is just 52 percent. Authorities there going with a primrose based commercial matched by primrose shaped pavilions to attract
people to where the vaccines will be dispensed.
BELL (on camera): Experts say that 70 percent of the population need either to have recovered from infection or to have been vaccinated for herd
immunity to kick in. Now as of early this month, only one in two people here in France said they were be willing to get the vaccine and that's
something that's really repeated across the European Union.
In fact, Europeans were amongst the most vaccine skeptical on Earth before the pandemic, and the pandemic doesn't appear to have changed that.
DAVID SCHAPIRO, VICE PRESIDENT, UFML: It has crystalized because it made worse all the tensions between people. The people are afraid, and when you
are afraid most of the time you get quite extremist.
BELL (voice over): Across Europe, skepticism not only of vaccines, but of governments encouraged these last few months but populist and far-right
parties. Also, by mistakes made by several governments early on in the pandemic.
DOMENICO ARCURI, ITALIAN CORONAVIRUS COMMISSIONER: At the beginning of this year all of us didn't know nothing about the virus. We, in that moment
without any power, any know how, any capability to fight with it. After some months we are fully in power.
BELL (voice over): But even though the vaccines that will soon be available in Europe have been tested, found to be effective, and found to be safe,
skepticism goes deeper than you might think.
JEREMY WARD, SOCIOLOGIST, CNRS: That's something that we tend to forget. Doctors are actually not so different from the general public, and lots of
them are hesitant.
BELL (voice over): It's Europe's moment tweeted the President of the European Commission on Thursday to announce the start of the E.U.'s
vaccination campaign. From December 27th, the first Europeans will be able to get vaccinated, the question is, how many will choose to do so?
Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Of course, the developing world has even greater problems in terms of just getting hold of the vaccine. The Global Alliance working to deliver
vaccines to the world's poorest countries says it has secured two billion doses. COVAX says this comes through supply agreements with AstraZeneca and
J & J, Johnson & Johnson.
UNICEF is preparing to ship up to 850 tons of vaccine per month on behalf of the Alliance.
Joining me is the UNICEF Executive Director, Henrietta Fore. She's in Santa Barbara, California. Good to have you, as always, Executive Director. So
this is excellent news. We've talked about it a great deal on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. The developing world, now two billion is not sufficient. But it's
a very good start.
HENRIETTA FORE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, UNICEF: Exactly, Richard, this is now a light at the end of the tunnel, and so one of our missions is to make sure
that light shines on every country and every person.
QUEST: I wonder, though, you're going with the AstraZeneca, and the Johnson & Johnson. There's a lot more Johnson & Johnson than AstraZeneca. Is UNICEF
involved in which ones were bought? How they were bought? Was your main focus the distribution and making sure it gets there?
FORE: So we are the ones who will procure, we will distribute and then we'll try to help the countries be ready because that readiness level for
every country is important to train your local healthcare workers to make sure you know who you want to inoculate first.
And so there are lots of pieces in the puzzle, but we need to get the vaccines first.
QUEST: Right. And the -- I was talking to some colleagues in Nigeria, everybody says there, well they're not expecting full scale vaccination
until well late into 2021. Is that your best guess, too?
FORE: Well, we think we are going to have most of the vaccines starting to roll out in the first quarter of 2021. But there are more vaccines that are
coming online as you are covering in your show.
So all during 2021, I'm sure that we will hear from more vaccine manufacturers and more approvals coming out of COVAX because having the
vaccines available is the first step, then they have to be approved by W.H.O., then we have to have them allocated, and then we want to be sure
that the countries are ready and we need enough funding for this.
So if we can get that whole chain to work together in concert, then we've got it, Richard.
[15:25:22]
QUEST: We do need to talk, Henrietta, we do need to talk about another matter that you're aware of. UNICEF, your organization under fire tonight
from the British government after UNICEF pledged to give money for free school meals in London.
Now child poverty and child food poverty has been a hot issue in the U.K. because of a campaign, thanks to the Manchester United's Marcus Rushford
and UNICEF's donation is the first in the country.
The leader of the House of Commons, Jacob Rees - Mogg. You're familiar with this, but let's let our viewers hear what he said about UNICEF.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACOB REES-MOGG, LEADER OF THE BRITISH HOUSE OF COMMONS: I think it's a real scandal that UNICEF should be playing politics in this way when it is
meant to be looking after people in the poorest, the most deprived countries in the world where people are starving, where there are famines
and where there are civil wars, and they make cheap political points of this kind, giving I think, 25,000 pounds to one Council. It is a political
stunt of the lowest order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Well, there you are, Henrietta, a political stunt of the lowest order.
FORE: So UNICEF as an organization is indeed working in all of those poorest countries, and with the poorest populations within the countries
and to make sure that everyone is cared for so that there's an education and health and protection and water and sanitation, all the things that
children and young people need.
We do have in the U.K., an independent nonprofit charity organization, which is the U.K. Committee for UNICEF, and they have donations from the
generous British public, but no government funds have been used in Britain, but it is a time -- it's a season for charity.
QUEST: Can I just interrupt you there. I can understand the independence of the national -- but you've got to admit, I mean, the U.K. is one of the
wealthiest in the country, and if you wanted to do something at UNICEF, or your affiliate there wanted to do something, they could have a campaign.
But the money would be better spent giving it to vaccines in the developing world.
FORE: So, the money is -- almost all of it is being spent in the developing world for everything from vaccines, to education, to health supplies to,
you know, humanitarian emergencies. So everything is being used in those countries.
But the local committees, the U.K. committee will have many people who care about children. It is the Holiday season, they see children in need and
they respond. So I think we just should be charitable.
QUEST: Always, always. Thank you. And I wish with that spirit, and thank you for taking an assessment. I wish you and your family of course, a safe,
festive season and a good New Year.
Henrietta, it's always good to talk to you. Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate it.
FORE: Thank you, Richard.
QUEST: Gosh, this weekend, it is down to the wire. Key deals. Just think about it. You could have a U.S. government shutdown, and the last moment
for Brexit negotiations before Christmas. If that's not enough to give you coil-overs over the weekend, who knows what.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:30:00]
QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. There's more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in just a moment.
It's a make or break weekend on both sides of the Atlantic. Mohamed El- Erian on what Brexit and the U.S. stimulus could mean for the global economy.
And the biggest video game launch of the year -- and it's a disaster.
Sony pulls "Cyberpunk 2077" from its stores as fans claim the game's broken. How can that be? We'll find out.
After news headlines, of course. Because this is CNN and on this network, the news always comes first.
The two U.S. lawmakers got their COVID-19 shots today from the Capitol Hill doctor.
The Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, she's 80 -- and the Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, he's 78.
Now they got it because of the continuity of government. And then, of course, officials who are trying to promote public confidence in COVID
vaccines.
The French President Emmanuel Macron said he's doing fine after testing positive for the virus on Thursday.
He put out a new Twitter video where he said he's fatigued, has a headache and a dry cough. And he says all this shows no one is safe from the virus.
Swedish authorities are recommending masks for the first time since the pandemic started. It's another other part of the country's lockdown
measures contrasting sharply with the country's initial lax approach aimed at achieving herd immunity.
Sweden's King recently criticized that response saying, "We have failed."
Brexit on one hand, U.S. stimulus on the other. And the fate of both could be decided over the next few hours.
Here in the United States, a government shutdown will come at midnight without a breakthrough in congress. Lawmakers also pushing to pass their
COVID relief deal. All risk a double-dip recession next year.
And Brexit negotiations come to head this weekend after the European Parliament set a Sunday deadline to see the text of any deal.
Mohamed El-Erian is the chief economic adviser for Allianz. He's back in Laguna Beach which I suspect is a great deal warmer than the U.K. at the
moment.
I can't blame you, sir. Wanting to spend your season's tides in Laguna Beach.
Look, of these events that we are watching, which is giving you most concern at the moment?
MOHAMED EL-ERIAN, CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER, ALLIANZ: It's the U.S. fiscal situation. And that is because the U.S. economy is so big in the global
economy.
The U.K., the Brexit issue is really important for the U.K., it's important for Europe but it's not important for the rest of the world.
So the fiscal negotiations are what is --
QUEST: Right.
EL-ERIAN: -- keeping me up at night, if you like.
QUEST: So what's the fear here? Even if -- let's say the government shuts down tonight, it'll be regrettable but till soon reopen again. It's quite
easy to pass a continuing resolution and get the whole thing up and running again.
This question of the stimulus, that's tricky. And this latest line about wanting to hobble the Fed from doing what it's done before, which is start
new lending programs. What's your view on that?
[15:35:00]
EL-ERIAN: So first of all, it's not a stimulus, it's relief. Secondly, there are four layers to this.
One, we're going to get. If we're talking on Monday I'm pretty sure this is going to have happened or about to happen, which is keep the government
running.
Two, which is provide emergency assistance unemployment benefits, the check's in the mail. That is most likely to happen.
Three, just as needed but it won't happen; state and local government support.
And four, just as needed and certainly won't happen which is longer term pro-growth reform measures.
So you're going to get two out of four for immediate relief but that's not going to fundamentally change the trajectory. It's going to help some
people but not fundamentally change things.
QUEST: No. Those first two that will happen are vital for those people who need help for the awfulness of not being able to put food on their table.
But if we look into January, February and March in terms of the growth, will there be -- is it your best guess, a double dip?
EL-ERIAN: Certainly for Europe. And the West is going after the U.S. And it goes back to what you and I have been discussing since day one of this
awful pandemic.
It is very difficult to balance three things. One is public health, two is as normal economic and social activity as possible, and three is personal
freedoms.
And what we're finding out is that the West is having enormous difficulty balancing these things.
They're not tradeoffs. You've got to move all three. But we simply have not been able to.
QUEST: I hate to sort of sound like my late grandmother who would sort of look at things and say oh, the world's in a terrible mess. But it really
is.
You've got Russian hacking of the U.S. government where we're only just deciding -- or finding out how bad. You've got a U.S. government that can't
pay its bills or won't pay -- give money to people who need it.
You've got Brexit. And the Europeans haven't even started to vaccinate and won't have done so before Christmas.
EL-ERIAN: And yet, the markets are doing great. So yes, we're having this incredible disconnect. And you haven't cited the one that really keeps me
up at night which is increasing inequality.
Not just inequality of income and wealth but inequality of opportunity. And that really matters for future generations.
So yes, we are in a mess. But let's be clear. Most of the things can be addressed by good policy design. This is not an engineering problem as much
as it is a political implementation issue.
QUEST: The vote on January the 5th in the Georgia senate runoff races, two seats.
If Democrats take both -- and it's basically a standstill with the vice president having the casting vote -- how important is this?
Because there will be those who say no, actually, not divided government but an element of a break is a good thing.
EL-ERIAN: That's where I am. I understand those who feel that divided government is best because it keeps government out of the way but we need
government right now, we need bold policy implementation.
Because of not just the immediate issues you and I discussed but what's called scarring, economic and social scarring. Which means that short-term
problems can become long-term problems but we need to address that. And you can't do it with divided government.
QUEST: Finally, the market. All right. Let's just go for it. I'm asking everybody on this.
I'm guessing that the virus -- the vaccine takes better effect, earnings get better, things get better. The market's on a rally next year.
EL-ERIAN: So I'm not so sure because initial valuations are so high. Not only have we priced in all this but we've also priced in continuing central
bank support.
QUEST: Right.
EL-ERIAN: So yes, I can see those. I would say I'm OK for the next few weeks but take me for the next year and I'll say it's going to get a lot
bumpier, Richard.
QUEST: Oh, contrarian. What we'd expect from Mohamed El-Erian, thank you, sir. Have a lovely holiday, best to the family.
EL-ERIAN: You too.
QUEST: and try and get some peace and quiet without economics over the next couple of weeks. Good to see you.
Now -- did I just say without economics? What was I thinking?
As we wait on the outcome of talks one business that's proving enormous challenges in the sector is the show must go on.
Cirque du Soleil is getting ready for its second act as it exits a bankruptcy brought on by COVID-19. Much like its famed acrobats doing
extraordinary things, the Canadian troupe says it hopes to bounce back by 2022.
[15:40:00]
This year -- oh, this year was full of ups and downs after it suspended shows and laid off nearly its entire workforce.
Now a group of creditors has set the stage for it to make a big top comeback.
I spoke to the head of Cirque Du Soleil earlier, Daniel Lamarre, who told me the company will be profitable when it's back in the tent.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANIEL LAMARRE, CEO, CIRQUE DU SOLEIL: So what we hope is to reopen first our shows in Las Vegas because our cast and crew lives there. So we're
hoping to open some time next summer.
As for our touring shows, it's more complicated because the market has to come back to normalcy. Which means the airplane has to work, all the
boundaries between the countries has to be reopened.
So we're talking more about the next fall for our touring shows.
QUEST: What changes have you made to sort of ensure a long-term profitability or at least sustainability of the company and its various
performing troupes and the residents and those that (inaudible). Bearing in mind, that every theatre group, every performing arts has had difficulty.
But what are you going to do to protect yourself now?
LAMARRE: Yes. As you said, the entire industry has been shut down for many months and unfortunately several other months to come.
So what we have done is we have planned with a very conservative approach. Even with the new owner that have reinvest new money in the company, we're
going to be very very, careful the way we're going to spend it in the coming months.
We will keep the burning rate as low as possible in order to keep our money for the relaunch of our new shows.
So we are having a leaner organization that will go back to profitability as soon as we reopen our show.
QUEST: How much more are you putting into the shows? What's new?
LAMARRE: Yes. What we will do is we are going to use that opportunity to bring new acts and on each show we have a department here which is called
the quality of shows.
So we will ensure that with the reopening of every show that we bring some new acts. And more importantly, that we keep the level of quality that our
fans are expecting.
QUEST: I look at what's happening on Broadway, that's not going to open till the middle of next year. I look at the West End in London which is
closed down.
This is an industry, the performing arts is an industry, the crisis of which I don't think we fully -- the rest of the population fully
appreciates.
LAMARRE: No, you're right. Just for us we were talking about 4,700 employees that lost their job overnight. Within 48 hours we had to shut
down all of our shows.
So that's why today I'm so relieved that the future of the company is guaranteed. And more importantly, I will be even happier when I'm able to
recall our former employees and tell them come back home.
And that's what is keeping me motivated, is keeping the focus on having this opportunity to relaunch, rebirth an amazing organization.
QUEST: And we'll cover it when it happens. As QUEST MEANS BUSINESS continues on this Friday.
Our "Call to Earth," it's sustainable solutions in Scotland. Restoring the bog land and how it can fight climate change.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:45:00]
QUEST: "Call to Earth," our call to action. The environment. Where together we're sharing solutions on global warming, plastic waste, deforestation.
It's a long-term priority for all of us here at CNN to work with you to drive awareness and inspire change.
Together, we can engineer that sustainable future that we seek.
So to today's report. And the extraordinary ecosystems that help regulate our climate and why it's critical that we protect them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NARRATOR: Around the world there are ecosystems that absorb and hold huge amounts of greenhouse gases.
These are carbon sinks. They play a pivotal role in regulating the earth's climate and can also defend against the worst impacts of the climate
crisis.
But they are increasingly under threat from industrial exploitation and global warming.
From the boreal forests of the north to the mango forests of the tropics, these carbon sinks all work in the same way. Their vegetation takes CO2
from the air and locks it under the ground through their roots.
By far the largest terrestrial carbon sink in the world is perhaps one of the lesser known; peat lands.
ANDREW MCBRIDE, PROJECT MANAGER, PEATLAND ACTION: They're not quite so sexy as a lot of other things that you see in the natural world. They're seen as
wastelands, they're seen as places that got any real function.
NARRATOR: Peatlands cover more than 20 percent of Scotland and store more than 120 times the country's annual emissions.
MCBRIDE: And we think the majority of that sort of 80-, 90 percent is probably degraded.
HAMISH THOMSON, ESTATE MANAGER, WOODLANDS TRUST: We're here in the Glen Finglas estate which is the Woodland Trust's largest site. So we've got
beautiful lochs, mountains, grasslands. About half of our 5,000 hectares, is above 400 meters and of that, we've got some significant areas of
peatland.
MCBRIDE: The main sort of building block of peat is sphagnum moss. This is the growing part of it. As you go deeper, it gets darker and you get
actually more decay. That means this is where peat will start forming.
And it gets to a point where it's actually decayed virtually as much as it can go and that's when you're almost getting pure carbon.
It takes 1,000 years for a meter of peat to actually form.
NARRATOR: Known peatlands cover three percent of the earth's surface but they store twice as much carbon as forests. About 550 billion tons.
Because of exploitation from industries like mining, agriculture and forestry many carbon sinks are losing their ability to hold carbon. And as
they degrade, they release those carbon stores.
Peatlands alone are estimated to be responsible for around six percent of all human-made gas emissions globally.
To combat that, the Scottish government has pledged over $320 million towards peatland restoration over the next ten years.
MCBRIDE: And it's not just in Scotland that you've got permafrost in the Northern Hemisphere. You've got peatlands in Indonesia as well.
And this is all part of doing a world effort basically. To actually make sure that the carbon we have stored in peat stays stored in peat and
doesn't go into the atmosphere.
[15:50:00]
NARRATOR: Protecting carbon sinks also protects the havens that they have become for bio-diversity as well as the future of those whose livelihoods
depend on them.
Mangroves are home to more than 3,00 species of fish. Restoring them helps protect the world's coast from storm surges. Mangroves are also five times
more cost effective than concrete barriers.
And stored in the world's boreal forests are an estimated one trillion tons of carbon, the equivalent to more than 90 years of human-made emissions.
Managed properly, these extraordinary ecosystems can recover to play a vital role in the fight against climate change.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Gosh, the more I watch these reports, the more fascinating they are.
Now there are more stories on amazing ecosystems. You want to check it out, it's on "Call to Earth", a digital interactive. Just visit CNN.com.
And you and I, what are we doing? Well, let's tweet about it and let's -- on social media, use the hashtag call to earth.
This is CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Well, you don't hear this every day. One of the earth's biggest video games releases has become one of the industry's biggest flop.
Sony is pulling "Cyberpunk 2077" from its PlayStation store and offering refunds to disappointed and angry gamers. They are complaining the hugely
hyped title is full of bugs and glitches.
Shares in the studio that developed it have fallen by about a third -- look at that -- since its title was launched over a week ago.
In the past hour, it said it's offering refunds to anyone with proof of purchase.
Paul La Monica, how does this happen?
PAUL R. LA MONICA CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Yes. This is a big embarrassment for CD Projekt Red, the Polish game developer behind this title.
Obviously, a huge flop. And a disaster with these refunds now being offered. And it's not just Sony but also Microsoft through the Xbox
platform, I think you're probably going to see it from retailers like Amazon and GameStop too.
A lot of angry gamers who tried playing this game and it was just riddled with bugs. And it had already had been delayed.
QUEST: It's real easy to say but, of course, these are difficult to make, these games. But this sort of thing shouldn't happen. Quality control. How
does one -- I suppose there'll be an investigation of Sony as to how this happened.
[15:55:00]
LA MONICA: Yes. I'm not so sure Sony. Obviously, Sony is the platform where people were playing the game. But this is kind of analogous to like you buy
something at Walmart but it's made by Procter & Gamble, is it Walmart's fault or is it P&G?
I think the gamer company is ultimately the one at fault for delivering a title that was just not very good. And --
QUEST: I'm not sure -- I'm not sure I'm with you on that, Paul. For the simple reason -- Sony must have played with the thing and if they -- before
it went out.
They must have put it through its paces before -- maybe they didn't in which case they're guilty of that too.
LA MONICA: Yes. And they're not the only one. Because, again, if you were playing this on the Xbox, people were having problems.
And people who bought the game physically, for those who still do that, from places like GameStop and Amazon, they're offering refunds as well.
So this is across the board just a disaster for this company. And poor Keanu Reeves, he lent his voice to this travesty.
QUEST: Some day you and I will have to -- in a post-COVID world -- we will play these games. We keep promising ourselves but I know I'll lose.
LA MONICA: Maybe "Kong" or "Impact-Man." I think that's more our style, Richard.
QUEST: Yes, probably. That and a good book. All right, Paul. Good to see you, sir. Have a lovely weekend --
LA MONICA: You too.
QUEST: -- and if we don't -- hopefully, we'll speak next week but we don't, a good festive season.
Now a look at the markets. I just want to show you how things are looking.
The Dow is down but we've had such good gains of late. We mustn't get too excited.
The Nasdaq's down, the S&P's down. They're all down.
Another "Profitable Moment" after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment".
There was a time when I was growing up in Northern England that by this time of the year -- well, you were just about finished for Christmas.
If you could get Christmas Eve off and then that wasn't too far away from the weekend and you joined it up with a day off that the company gave you,
before long you managed to get two full weeks.
Look, yes. I wish we could say that but unfortunately, this weekend's going to be rather significant.
Why? Firstly, we've got the Brexit talks -- crunch, crunch -- I've heard that so many times. Doesn't look like there'll be a deal but what can they
salvage to make sure that January the 1st isn't over the cliff?
Then you've got the budget, making sure the U.S. government stays open. That requires a continuing resolution. Relatively easy to do but they've
still got to do it before everything gets shut down.
And you've still got the stimulus. What does this mean? It means that we're going into Christmas week with a full agenda. Newsworthy events -- which I
should be pleased about, guess, in the sense that it keeps me in a job and it keeps me in business.
But there are the two weeks of the year, this time around Christmas into the New Year that it would be nice just to simply say, enough.
Celebrate the vaccine. Moderna's coming next. Things are getting better even though they're getting worse if you're in a tier three or a lockdown
or whatever.
So this weekend, just put it all to one side for a moment. Finish your Christmas shopping. Eat a few extra mince pies. Next week things will start
to close down.
And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in New York.
Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it is profitable.
The closing bell is ringing. The Dow is down.
END
