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Quest Means Business

Stocks Off Session Lows As Volatility Grips Wall Street; I.M.F. Cuts 2022 Growth Forecast On Trends In U.S. And China; Biden Could Consider Personal Sanctions Against Putin; E.U. Proposes Lifting Rules For Travelers With COVID-19 Certificates; Flying Car Deemed Airworthy By Slovakian Government; Neil Young Slams Spotify Over Vaccine Misinformation; Dash To The Bell. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired January 25, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:24]

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS HOST: More mayhem in the markets after Monday's wild ride. The NASDAQ is leading the way down as you can see

there. The S&P 500 is also in the red, but the Dow is rebounding.

Volatility rules the day. Investors wait to hear from the Fed about future rate hikes.

The U.S. President says he would consider personal sanctions against Putin if Russia invades Ukraine.

And the E.U. recommends easing internal travel, the bloc likely to remove restrictions for the vaccinated or tested.

Live from New York. It's Tuesday, January 25th. I'm Alison Kosik, in for Richard Quest, and this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

Good evening. Tonight, volatility reigns on global financial markets. The Dow turned positive just in the last few minutes. Stocks had been down

heavily throughout the morning in New York. Now, we wait to see if Monday's comeback magic can repeat itself today.

The S&P 500 is also well off its lows of the day. The losses are more significant on the NASDAQ as tech stocks continue to get hit.

The VIX, that's the volatility index. It's been on quite the wild ride. It jumped 11 percent earlier in the session before coming back down.

Let's bring in Matt Egan with the latest. So Matt, it looks like January's wild ride continues. This seems to be a market that is trading in such a

way that if you look away, you're going to miss something.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Alison, you know, none of this is normal. Only when investors are really feeling a lot of uncertainty and

nervousness do you see wild swings like this. It is kind of reminiscent of some other really tense moments in the market.

I'm talking about the U.S.-China trade war, the 2013 taper tantrum, the onset of COVID itself in March of 2020. Not to say the losses are as

extreme as then, but just this back and forth action in the volatility is starting to look like that. So we are seeing another day of really a

remarkable recovery on Wall Street.

The Dow was down more than 800 points at its low, as you can see up 150 points now only in the last 80 minutes or so, not even -- have you seen the

market turn positive. The NASDAQ was down by three percent, more than that. Now, it's down like less than one percent. So certainly moving in the right

direction.

But I do think all this underscores the uncertainty that investors feel right now about Russia-Ukraine tensions, about high inflation, and of

course, the Fed's plans to fight inflation by raising interest rates. We're going to hear more on that front tomorrow from Jerome Powell, when he takes

questions from reporters, and I think we can expect more volatility then, as well -- Alison.

KOSIK: Do you really think there is going to be more volatility even after the Fed meets tomorrow and we hear from Jay Powell himself at the

press conference? I mean, is there something that investors maybe are looking for that could calm things here? What are they looking to hear from

Jay Powell?

EGAN: Well, I mean, what they're looking here, and maybe what's realistic are probably two different things. You know, in a perfect world,

the investors would be happy with the Fed, you know, signaling a lot of patience with raising interest rates.

But the Fed is in a tough spot because it has got to catch up to inflation. So, that's not realistic.

I think that they want to hear from Jerome Powell that he is taking everything into account. He is watching what's happening in the real

economy, that he's got confidence that inflation is going to come down, and that he doesn't want to, you know, cool off the economy so much that it

actually threatens the recovery itself.

So they don't want to hear any surprises from Jerome Powell. If they were to come out -- if the Fed were to come out and signaling a much faster pace

of raising interest rates, I think that would unnerve investors.

But Alison, yes, I do think there is a good reason to expect volatility continue because Fed meetings often bring turbulence in financial markets.

We've seen times when the statement comes out and the Dow goes up 200, 300, 400 points, and then by the time Jerome Powell has done with his press

conference, the market is down 300 or 400 points and that's during normal times, not during times when the Fed is signaling interest rate hikes and

talking about Russia-Ukraine tension.

[15:0503]

So there's a lot of moving pieces and I think the markets are searching for a bottom here. The question is, you know, whether or not yesterday's lows

might mark a bottom. We don't know, they are probably going to go back and test that -- Alison.

KOSIK: Yes, we shall see and we will keep our seatbelts locked for the meeting tomorrow. Mett Egan, thanks so much for your great reporting.

EGAN: Thank you.

KOSIK: The head of the International Monetary Fund told CNN that the volatility we're seeing in the markets is in part, a natural correction

after years of exuberance. The I.M.F. has downgraded its global growth forecast.

It now sees a 4.4 percent expansion in 2022. That's down half a percentage point from its last estimate back in October. The fund says the new number

reflects setbacks in the world's two biggest economies, the U.S. and China.

The fund estimates China grew more than eight percent last year. It now sees that number falling to just 4.8 percent in 2022. That's a downgrade of

eight-tenths of a percentage point from October.

The fund blames Beijing's zero COVID policy for hampering personal spending in China. It also cites the country's crumbling real estate sector.

Yukon Huang is the former World Bank Director for China. And he joins us now from Washington. Great to have you on the show today.

YUKON HUANG, FORMER WORLD BANK DIRECTOR FOR CHINA: Thank you very much, Alison.

KOSIK: Let's start with China's zero tolerance policy when it comes to COVID. It has really come to define China's pandemic response. And now as

you heard the I.M.F. says, it could cause fresh damage to supply chains impacting global growth. How much longer do you think can China keep up

this strategy?

HUANG: I think China's COVID policy is evolving. As you mentioned, it was going with what they call zero tolerance. It is moving to what I would call

rapid containment or rapid cleansing.

If you look at what has been happening over the last month or two, you had this breakout in Xi'an, a city of 13 million. Over two or three weeks they

went through a lockdown. They more or less eliminated the problem in Xi'an. Then it showed up in Tianjin. Now, it is showing up in Beijing, various

cities in Hunan Province.

And instead of full lockdowns, what you're seeing is more isolated lockdown at districts and areas.

China has a system, they could actually test as many as a million or two million people in 12 hours. So what they're trying to do is hit these

pockets, and the question is whether or not further down the year, maybe after the Olympics, this fall, perhaps they'll loosen up a bit, but

probably not much earlier.

KOSIK: But this is expected to hit -- that it is hitting currently their growth now, and that it will continue to hit growth globally.

HUANG: It does have a negative effect. If you look at the growth rate in the last quarter of last year, it fell down to four percent, and it was

five or six percent in the middle year, it went down to four percent. At least a half a percent or maybe a full percentage point of that decline

from previous growth was because the lockdowns last year, the interruptions in the supply chains, but there are many other things that are also

affecting the growth rate.

Fuel shortages, property market bubble, the collapsing local finances, preventing provinces from investing. China's aging population just hit a

record low in terms of birth rates -- all these things are coming together.

So the question is current fiscal year, this current year is not whether growth may be as high as 4.8 or even five. There are some who think that

the growth rate may even fall down in three to four and the uncertainties around the pandemic are certainly one important factor.

KOSIK: Yes, we see have seen Beijing crackdown on business. You know, Fintech, you know full scale crackdown on cryptocurrency, both trading and

mining. How much do you think those crackdowns have impacted China's overall growth?

HUANG: Well, that's had a very significant effect. Stock valuations of some of these major players like Alibaba, Tencent, they have fallen

dramatically, and many big conglomerates have taken a big hit.

The private sector is nervous. There has been a slowdown in terms of investments in the equity markets because of this. At the same time, China

is keen on securing more investment into high tech activities, particularly in manufacturing and strategic industries.

They have something for example, called local champions, little giants, some 5,000 companies have been identified over the last year or two for new

investments, and these are in the high tech area, but they're not in the digital services sector, which is taking the brunt of the government's

retrenchment.

And the question is whether or not innovation growth in these new activities will be strong enough to overcome what I call the hindering and

decline in the major digital giants.

[15:10:12]

KOSIK: Yes, you wrote a piece saying that both China and the U.S. get it wrong when it comes to economic policy and trade. In fact, you wrote a

piece about this, saying, you know, giving the reasons why. Walk us through that.

HUANG: Well, here in the United States, we worry about jobs. We worry about jobs in manufacturing. That is a big plank in Biden's program as it was in

Trump's. But if you think about it, manufacturing only counts for eight percent of employment in the U.S. Ninety percent of the jobs in the U.S. is

in services, and the really important point, high-value services that drives the U.S. economy.

China has also been evolving. If you go back seven to eight years ago, manufacturing accounted for a large part of the growth, a large part of the

job creation. And today again, it is true in China -- services. Services are becoming more important.

When you look at companies like Alibaba, Tencent, and ByteDance, these ride-hailing companies, this is what caused what I call substantial growth

efficiency gains over the last three or four or five years.

So when trying to hits these kinds of digital service giants, it is also making a mistake because the manufacturing sector, although there are parts

of it that is very dynamic, it is unlikely to provide the growth impetus in the future as it did in the past in China also.

KOSIK: I want to quickly ask you about Taiwan. You know, Taiwan needs China for economic prosperity because of trade, but we've seen tensions

really, really grow, especially over the past few days. China sent dozens of warplanes into Taiwan's Air Defense Identification Zone. How do you

think this is going to play out?

HUANG: Well, the rhetoric is certainly heated up in everybody's side. I mean, Taiwan, Mainland, and the U.S. So I think the hope is that these

tensions will occur, but will calm down.

But there are a lot of a lot of problems going on here. China depends a lot on the semiconductors coming out of Taiwan as the global economy does. So

you have this company called TSMC. They produce most of the high-value chips that's in demand, not just in China, but demand in the United States

and Europe.

So any disruption, any real problem that threatens what I call the security of Taiwan will have a major global effect on supply chains.

KOSIK: Okay, Yukon Huang, former World Bank Director for China, grateful for your time today. Thank you.

HUANG: Thank you very much.

KOSIK: A day of high level diplomacy over the Ukraine crisis, the leaders of the U.S., France, and Germany warning Russia of big consequences

of a potential invasion.

We'll be live in Moscow with the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:24]

KOSIK: In the last hour, U.S. President Joe Biden said he could consider personal sanctions against Vladimir Putin if Russia invades Ukraine.

President Biden also said he could move troops to Ukraine soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What will lead to that is what's going to happen -- what Putin does or doesn't do, and I may be

moving some of those troops in the near term just because it takes time. And again, it's not provocative. It's just exactly what I said.

It is that, it is that as long as we have to reassure -- if you notice, you don't see a lot of concern in terms of their security and of our NATO

allies in Western Europe, but in Eastern Europe, there is reason for concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSIK: Earlier today, the leaders of France and Germany presented a united front on Russia, saying there would be a big price to pay if Russia

attacks Ukraine. French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz met in Berlin where they stressed the importance of de-

escalating tensions, but warned they would not hesitate to punish Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We made clear that military aggression that affects the territorial integration in Ukraine

will draw consequences a high price. We are united with our partners within NATO and the European Union.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSIK: Our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson is in Moscow and joins us live now. So Nic, we are seeing the optics of a united front

here, at least between France and Germany, but then there is the reality of Germany actually resisting efforts to take action to support Ukraine.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, and that definitely concerns the Ukrainians and they have been vocal about it. And I

think President Putin is fully aware of this here in Russia.

He sees the divisions and gaps that there are in the European Union as he sort of mounts up pressure by very visibly building his troops up around

Ukraine in the South and in the East and in the North. He has got his demands that NATO not allow Ukraine to join a NATO roll back to 1997

borders, and is getting written responses to those from the United States and from NATO, during this week.

But there is also this sort of separate track of conversation that's going on, and this is the one that the Germans and the French are very heavily

involved in and this is what is known as a Normandy format. There will be low level diplomacy talks, diplomat level talks tomorrow in Paris, and the

Normandy format consists of Germany, France, Russia, and Ukraine.

And these are talks that are focused on that Eastern region that pro- Russian separatists eastern region of Donbass in Ukraine, and I think President Putin sees an opportunity here with a perhaps warmer tone, less

frosty tone that he might get if he was -- if the British were at the table or if President Biden's representatives were at the negotiating table, an

opportunity there, perhaps, to get some of what he wants in that Normandy format talks over Donbass.

Of course, the Ukrainians will be exceptionally worried because it is their territorial integrity that is at stake. It's their sovereignty that's being

discussed. They will be at the table, however, with Russia, and that is significant.

So there is a sort of diplomatic opening tomorrow, low level. It's not -- it's not new. It's been tried, and it has stumbled before, but it has a new

push behind it now. So this is something that is sort of coming into the frame over the next couple of days.

KOSIK: Yes, sanctions are another thing that we've heard before that have not necessarily worked and we just heard President Biden say he could

see personally sanctioning Putin if Russia invades Ukraine. Are you getting any reaction there from the Kremlin?

ROBERTSON: Nothing so far, but when this has been -- when this has come up with before a few weeks ago, it was sort of floated around in the Russian

media that this might be in the air, might be something, there was pushed back on it then.

You know, the way that the Kremlin handles all of this, it calls it media hysteria, and it is blaming the United States for ramping up the tensions

and they would likely put this in the same frame that you don't pick on the head of state, you know, for sanctions. You pick on institutions, but you

don't pick on the head of state. This was the argument that they were putting forward before.

[15:20:07]

So it's it seems unlikely that President Putin would change track this time because of this possible threat of possible sanctions on him. It is going

to be used against him in the rhetoric that the Kremlin uses to explain the situation to the Russian people.

KOSIK: Okay, Nic Robertson, thanks for all that great perspective.

Earlier today, the head of the International Monetary Fund spoke to Christiane Amanpour, Kristalina Georgieva said the geopolitical tensions in

Europe are adding to the uncertainty that's dominating the global economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTALINA GEORGIEVA, MANAGING DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND: Of course, we hope very much that there would be a diplomatic solution. We

pray for that.

But if there is even more tensions that could affect energy prices and that can then translate into even higher inflation, and more action necessary

from Central Banks to contain it. Why this is a problem? Because when we fight inflation, we reduce the capacity of the economy to grow faster and

that is a delicate balance that Central Banks have to achieve.

Anything that adds more difficulty to achieving this balance in a moment we find ourselves today is a concern for the world economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSIK: Western leaders are trying to present a united front, but President Biden has suggested there are splits on how to respond to

Russia's aggression. A key aspect here is energy.

The European Union relies heavily on Russia's natural resources. According to a Eurostat, it provides more than a quarter of the bloc's crude oil

imports. That's three times as much as the next biggest provider, Iraq.

The picture is even more one sided when it comes to natural gas, more than 40 percent of its imports into the E.U. are pumped by Moscow and that is

set to increase with the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline that sits between Russia and Germany.

Daniel Fried is a former Assistant Secretary of State for Europe under President George W. Bush and Barack Obama. He helped lead the West's

response to Moscow's aggression against Ukraine in 2014 and we are happy to welcome him to the show via Skype from Washington. Great to have you on the

show.

DANIEL FRIED, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EUROPE UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND BARACK OBAMA: Thanks for having me. Wish

circumstances were better, though.

KOSIK: Yes, I agree. Let me first get to this point with Germany. You know, Germany is sort of the one country here that seems to be fracturing

the NATO alliance here. I mean, even the Polish Prime Minister in a Facebook post said he is concerned about Germany's reaction in the, quote,

"face of a threat from Russia," because Germany is withholding consent to supply arms to Estonia.

How much does a less unified force with Germany not kind of jumping on the bandwagon here -- how much does that take away the teeth to deter Putin

from invading Ukraine?

FRIED: Well, certainly the German government has been divided internally over its response to Putin's aggression, but it is moving in the right

direction. We've seen the German government strengthen its statements, warning Putin to back off, and warning that it will support strong

sanctions if the Russians increase their aggression against Ukraine.

There have been differences within Germany especially about the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, but I don't think that when push comes to shove, the

Germans are going to opt out and not take a responsible position.

I think this is hard for everyone. The Biden administration didn't want this crisis, but it has moved once it became convinced of its seriousness.

I think the Germans have been slow to recognize that their hopes for Vladimir Putin being reasonable or not realistic, but I think they're

moving in the right direction, certainly, their Foreign Ministry is.

KOSIK: Now as you know, in the past 24 hours, we've had this announcement about putting thousands of U.S. troops on high alert. Do you

think this lessens the chances of a diplomatic solution? Is this really escalating things?

FRIED: Not at all. I think that announcement strengthens the chance of a diplomatic solution, because it shows Putin that the West and the United

States are not as weak as he supposed.

He is counting on our internal divisions and there are all the different problems we know we have to paralyze us. That's emboldening him.

If we show Putin that the West is united, that we take this threat to European security seriously, it means that a diplomatic solution is

actually more possible, more likely. It's not diplomacy or resistance. It's both. And I think the Biden administration has done a pretty good job

combining those two tracks.

[15:25:27]

KOSIK: So do you ultimately think that Putin is taking the U.S. moves seriously, and not just the actual movement of troops, but also the talk,

what Biden just talked about personally sanctioning Putin? Does this move the needle? Do personal sanctions actually scare Putin?

FRIED: Well, probably not. But if you put together everything the U.S. has done in the past few days, putting the troops on higher alert, talking

more about some truly tough sanctions, solidarity with its allies, that shows Putin that his initial calculation of a weakened distracted United

States was wrong, and his calculation that Europe was hopelessly divided, I think is also wrong.

Biden has returned the U.S. to its customary role of rallying the Western alliance, and I think Putin is a rational actor within his frame of

reference and he is going to take this into account. I'm not saying it's going to be a good outcome, but it would be a lot worse if the United

States looked divided or paralyzed, and thank God we don't.

KOSIK: Now, looking at your personal expertise. If today you were doing your old job, I mean, leading the West's response to Russia's current

aggression against Ukraine, I'm curious what you would do. What is the best way you would suggest to get a resolution here?

FRIED: I would say keep doing what we're doing and mean it. That is prepare tough sanctions, prepare to reinforce our allies, and I would do it

faster. I would get those troops moving and I would send more weapons to Ukraine. I'm not saying American soldiers.

President Biden is right to rule that out, but help the Ukrainians defend themselves, and thereby convince Putin that if he goes in heavy, he's going

to have to fight a real war, which is not popular with the Russian people.

So mean it. Lean forward into this and keep the diplomacy track moving. Don't be afraid of talks. Right now, the Biden administration is preparing

written responses to those rather aggressive, if not absurd, Russian initial proposals. Well, we should be serious about diplomacy.

If Putin turns down diplomacy, that's his choice, but we shouldn't be the ones to turn it off. So that's what I would do, press ahead with the

sticks, press ahead with diplomacy, and rally the West.

KOSIK: Okay, Daniel Fried, fantastic to get your analysis. Thanks very much.

And for Bob Dylan, the times are indeed changing. The legendary artist entered what's being called a landmark agreement with Sony. We'll have more

on that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:00]

KOSIK: Welcome back.

Traveling within the European Union could soon get easier for people who are fully vaccinated. The E.U. is recommending lifting travel restrictions

for Europeans with COVID certificates, which means they've been fully vaccinated in the last nine months, have tested negative or recently

recovered from COVID.

The recommendation comes a day after the British government announced it will lift testing requirements for fully vaccinated people arriving in

England next month. CNN's Melissa Bell is in Paris with more details.

So Melissa, what led to this latest move?

Walk us through.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alison, this is really a recognition of the fact that Omicron has really changed the game. And it's

something we've seen various European governments change their policies in the wake of, because it is about learning to live with the virus.

It is just spreading so wildly and so fast that it is something we have to learn to live with rather than to prevent. And the latest figures here in

France confirmed that, Alison. We just had another record, in the space of 24 hours, more than 500,000 cases, so much more than anything we'd seen

before.

That was announced earlier this evening by French authorities and, again, a reminder that this is a virus, a variant spreading so quickly that

governments simply have to learn to live with it.

So there's recommendations from Brussels, applying to the 27 member states to the European Union, they are just recommendations. So member states can

choose still to have vaccinated people coming into the countries to get PCR test as well.

But the idea is that Brussels is encouraging them not to. It wants to harmonize and facilitate movement between European countries and it comes a

day after the World Health Organization says what Omicron was doing is essentially showing the virus could now be about to become manageable

rather than overwhelming.

And I think that is an important distinction. Until now, governments, the European Union, have had to do all they can to prevent people traveling,

prevent people getting it. Now there's this sort of acceptance that we'll have to live with it.

And how can we make that work?

So if member states choose to go by the European Union's decision today, it's going to be a lot easier to travel. From France to Germany, for

instance, if you've been vaccinated that is all you're going to need to show.

So a big different for travelers within the European Union. However, European Union also saying those enforcing restrictions and they are

changing the recommendation so people who have been doubly vaccinated will need to get a booster within nine months or lose that vaccine pass that

allows them not just to travel but in several European countries to get into so many activities, to do and carry out so many ordinary things of

everyday life, Alison.

So again, a move to help the vaccinated and continue to make things harder for the unvaccinated.

KOSIK: OK, CNN's Melissa Bell live with us from Paris. Thanks so much.

Flying cars may soon be appearing on the market. After 200 test flights, Klein Vision's air car has been deemed airworthy by Slovakian government.

It's one of many flying cars in development. Oh, but don't get too excited just yet, Anna Stewart says you'll need a pilot's license to drive this

one.

[15:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just imagine, you're stuck in traffic. But, with the touch of a button, your car grows wings and you can fly right

out of it.

Sound like a dream?

Well, actually, this is edging ever closer to a reality. After more than 70 hours of test flights and 200 take-offs and landings, the air car has

received a certificate of air worthiness from Slovakia's transport authority.

During those test flights, take off and landing procedures were actually achieved without a pilot even touching the flight controls. That's

according to the air car's developer, Klein Vision. It's flown between two cities in Slovakia, landing in the capital airport whereupon it transformed

into a car and drove straight into the city center, which is pretty cool.

There are a few flying cars in development around the world, most waiting for regulatory approval; some available already for preorder, like Dutch

company PAL-V. Their entry level model priced at $400,000.

Flying cars have become a regular sight actually at tech shows and car shows. The air car's developer hoped to have it commercially available

within the next 12 months but there is one small catch: you need a pilot's license to operate it, which means, unfortunately, I won't be flying one

anytime soon -- Anna Stewart, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOSIK: After 60 years, it looks like Bob Dylan's recordings have a new home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LIKE A ROLLING STONE")

KOSIK (voice-over): The iconic singer and songwriter has sold his entire catalog of recorded music to Sony, going all the way back to 1962. Sony

didn't say how much it paid.

But "Billboard" estimated the recordings are worth about $200 million. CNN entertainment reporter Chloe Melas has more details about this deal.

And I'm hoping you can actually also answer the broader question, because I've seen a lot of big stars sell their catalogs. And it's usually the

older artists like Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Fleetwood Mac.

But I heard John Legend is doing it as well, why now?

CHLOE MELAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good to see, Alison, yes, this deal with Bob Dylan has been in the works and, right, this reported $200 million

deal, he had already sold the publishing rights to Universal Music.

So you see some artists selling both the recording, which is the songwriting, like the music notes, for lack of a better way to explain it,

and then the actual words, the writer, the publishing, sometimes if artists both, they split it up. Some like Bruce Springsteen sold it all for upwards

of $500 million, to Sony.

Now this trend, you're seeing Shakira, there were rumors about John Legend, not confirmed, Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young, all in 2021 and early 2022.

So what's up with that?

I spoke to the editorial director at "Billboard" this morning. And she said you're not imagining things. It was all happening at the same time because

interest rates have been so low over the last year or two. And that it's been a great moment for them to sell their catalogs, get as much money as

they can.

But you'll see the trend start to wane because they won't get as much money, won't see these massive offers.

My other question for her, though, Alison, why are labels like Sony and some of these investment firms willing to spend top dollar for these music

catalogs?

She said it's simple. She said you have the royalties, you have the music and you're making money continually in perpetuity. Look at it like a

retirement fund, it's a smart investment with COVID and all the things that can tank a market. This is a steady stream of income.

So she said, made an interesting point, like, to what you're saying about John Legend, that you see Imagine Dragons, you see Shakira selling off

parts or all of their catalog, she said sometimes these artists may live to regret it. If they live a long life and sold it too soon and spent all the

money, you see what I mean?

KOSIK: Oh, yes. I see what you mean.

MELAS: So yes --

KOSIK: It all comes down to money.

Doesn't it always?

MELAS: Yes --

KOSIK: But Neil Young is making headlines and it doesn't have to do with money. He's been an outspoken advocate for COVID-19 safety and prevention.

But he's outspoken now about what?

MELAS: Well, so Neil Young is also outspoken about vaccines. He's been outspoken about the COVID-19 pandemic.

[15:40:00]

You know, he is somebody that's always making headlines, Alison. But I do just want to say one thing about Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen, something

interesting I learned.

When you look at someone like Bob Dylan for selling his estate or selling his music catalog now, he just turned 80 in May, Bob Dylan. So Hannah Carp

was telling me this morning from "Billboard" magazine, this is also part of estate planning, planning for your loved ones, planning for the future.

And by getting this big chunk of change now, $200 million, reportedly, that can really set your family up successfully for the future, as opposed to,

you've seen Prince and others who have passed away who didn't; Aretha Franklin, who supposedly didn't have a will in the end and left loose ends.

So you're seeing estate planning. But it is a growing trend with younger artists. So it will be interesting to see who sells the rights to their

music. Taylor Swift, we know, is really upset; she wants her catalog back, going as far as to rerecord every single song from the beginning of her

career up until she went over to Universal Music, which is a massive undertaking, and just released "Red (Taylor's Version)" this past year.

So she has her work cut out for her but a lot of artists want to sell their music. So I think this is a trend that is going to stay, at least for 2022.

KOSIK: I think taxes have a lot to do with it as well, concerns about changes to the taxes for these high rollers, paying a 20 percent tax, as

opposed to 37 percent, that's a big deal as well to push them to sell their catalogs.

Chloe Melas, thank you so much for walking us through all of that.

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, I'll be back at the top of the hour as we make a dash for the closing bell. Up next, "LIVING GOLF."

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KOSIK: Hello, I'm Alison Kosik, it's the dash to the closing bell and we're just two minutes away. It's going to be yet another photo finish for

the Dow. The index was down around 800 points at the worst.

Well, now it's come roaring back and has been trying to end the day in positive territory. The S&P 500 is firmly lower but it's paired its losses

and is set to close outside of correction territory.

The Nasdaq fell into correction last week. It is down sharply, as tech shares continue to get battered. And that's your dash to the closing bell.

Follow me on Instagram and Twitter @AlisonKosik. You can hear it, the closing bell is ringing on Wall Street.

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