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Quest Means Business
Officer Under Investigation In Paris Over Shooting; US Q1 Growth Upgraded To Two Percent In Major Revision; Jury Reaches Verdict In Parkland Mass Shooting; Uganda's Anti-LGBTQ+ Law Is Terrorizing Community; Dash To The Bell. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired June 29, 2023 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:26]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: There is an hour to go of trading on Wall Street and you see a story of two markets. If you look at the Dow,
it's all rather encouraging. It is up over half a percent, good 200 points to the better. The triple stack shows underneath. You've really got a bit
of a weakness in technology stocks, which are under a bit of pressure in the Dow, that is lower.
We'll try and put some flesh on those bones in just a moment. The main events of the day: Protesters and police are clashing in Northern France as
they brace for a third night of violence over the fatal police shooting of a teenager.
The role of corporate greed as it drives inflation. An economist whose research was initially derided is now getting a lot of attention on the
idea of strategic price controls.
And Virgin Galactic takes its first paying passengers into space. We will talk about that over the course of the program.
We are live in New York. It's Thursday. It is June the 29th. I'm Richard Quest and I mean business.
Good evening.
It's just after nine o'clock in the evening in France, and around 40,000 police officers are on the streets trying to prevent a third night of
violent unrest over a deadly traffic stop. There were more clashes earlier in the day in the outskirts of Paris, where a teenager was shot. The local
prosecutor announced the officer involved is being investigated for voluntary homicide.
President Emmanuel Macron is battling to contain this crisis. The region which is just north of Paris has halted bus and tram services until
tomorrow morning. Another suburb has imposed an overnight curfew, all of which follows the chaos.
On Wednesday, 150 people were arrested and 24 officers injured. There were at least 40 cars set alight and the protests were not just in Paris, they
were in several cities as well.
Melissa Bell is our correspondent. She is in Paris this evening, and have the authorities got this under control.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nowhere near this stage, Richard. There is so much anger out there on the streets of France.
What we saw earlier on was that march, a called for by young Nahel's mother which had been meant to be a peaceful march to be held outside the police
station to protest those longstanding and deeply felt cases of police brutality, but also that hint of institutional racism that so many of these
communities say has been there and yet unmeasurable here in France for a number of reasons to do with France's culture, its laws, how it looks at
questions of race, and ethnicity.
That anger likely to spill out on the streets again. The real question tonight is whether we go back to scenarios like 2008, Richard, you and I
are old enough to remember it. Nicolas Sarkozy spent an entire summer trying to get to the end of that anger. Is this another summer of
discontent that is being kicked off by the tragic events of Tuesday morning?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BELL (voice over): Cars, townhalls, schools set on fire across France as rage over the police shooting of 17-year-old Nahel continued into a second
night, enough to force the French president to call an emergency ministerial meeting.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): The last hours have been marked by violent scenes against police stations, but also
schools and townhalls and basically against institutions and the Republic. It's absolutely unjustifiable.
BELL (voice over): The deployment of some 2000 police officers on Wednesday to the Paris suburbs did little to quell the anger with 150 people
detained.
"It's not the Republic that was in custody, it was not the Republic that killed this young man," heeded the government spokesman, Olivier Veran this
morning.
Another appeal in vain to calm the violence as Veran described some of the attacks on government institutions as organized, almost coordinated.
In response, a massive deployment of police forces on Thursday, some 40,000 across France, including 5,000 in Paris.
[15:05:01]
But even before nightfall, a protest led by Nahel's mother turned violent. Emotions still raw even as the police officer accused of shooting the teen
was placed under formal investigation for voluntary homicide.
Scuffles breaking out along the margins of the march, some 6,000 strong according to local media. Anger on the streets of France remains all too
palpable with a family grieving and a community looking for answers, as Paris suburbs and much of the country prepare for another difficult night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Now, Melissa, whatever the rights and merits of what took place with the shooting, the authorities will say that their first duty is to
restore public order. And that as long as -- I'm not going to hear the statements, you know, in my head, and that as long as there is violence, in
a sense, then there can't really be a peaceful protest.
BELL: That's right. And in fact, we have a particular interior minister in power right now in France who comes out with statements that are considered
particularly inflammatory and in that direction, that you allude to, Richard, that the first thing is to restore calm, protect the institutions,
and yet the point of view, the anger in those communities that we're talking about is that they find themselves on the receiving end of law and
order with very little sense of justice when it comes to looking into allegations of police brutality, looking in to feelings.
The sense that there is that if you are a young, Black Frenchman, you are much more likely to find yourself on the receiving end of police controls,
than say I am.
These things are impossible to quantify, and yet they are very keenly felt, and it is something that these communities have been trying to bring to
public attention now for many years every time there is this sort of incident, there is this sort of killing, there is this sort of tragedy,
Richard, they come out to say this is what we live all the time. It is time that it is paid attention to,.
QUEST: Melissa Bell, you will be watching events overnight. It's only nine o'clock there and it is still daylight as we can see. As things
develop, please come back for more. Thank you.
The US economy is on a much firmer footing than many economists have predicted. A new revision puts Q1 at two percent on an annual basis. The
previous estimate was just 1.3 percent.
And now, the markets are mixed on the news that could help temper expectations, but the US sees it is stronger, so Rahel, this is the way I
look at it: If a number is stronger, then it's more likely that rates go higher for longer because it has got to be tempered down to bring down
inflation. But I mean, clearly this is a very impressive GDP number.
RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Certainly encouraging, certainly encouraging for the team's soft-landing, perhaps not so much for
the Fed as you alluded to there, but let's put this in perspective.
So this GDP growth for Q1 coming in at two percent as you pointed out, lower than the previous two quarters, but higher than previous estimates,
also higher than economists were expecting. The expectation had been closer to 1.4 percent.
Even more encouraging, perhaps is that the increase here for the revision was largely due to consumer spending, the all-American consumer continues
to shop, that being supported, of course Richard, by the US labor market and excess pandemic savings.
What is not, however, encouraging perhaps is some new research from the Fed which suggests that excess pandemic savings in the US has pretty much run
out. I mean, this quote, take a listen to this. It says -- this from that research note: "We know that the US' path differs slightly from other
countries as its stock of excess savings increased more rapidly, peaking in 2021 Q3, and then decreased more quickly."
It goes on to say that: "As a result, its excess savings stock (the US) at least computed according to our method." get this Richard, ". is currently
completely depleted."
So that is not encouraging for the larger picture, but perhaps that could help slow things down for the Fed.
QUEST: All right, now, on this program yesterday, of course, we had the chair of the economic advisers at the White House, Jared Bernstein. You and
I talked afterwards.
I mean, today's number reinforces what he says, which we'll have a quick listen to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED BERNSTEIN, CHAIR, WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Talking about where we are right now, I mean, you hear so many people talking about personal
vibes, they are looking at whatever animal entrails they're looking at to declare recession.
In fact, a recession means something technical. It is a set of variables that the National Bureau of Economic Research designates and if you look at
those variables, where they are in real time, they are all pretty clearly flashing non-recessionary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, Rahel, he is right obviously, because I mean, the numbers prove it, but I am very interested in what you were just saying about the
excess spending because it was that excess spending that propped up the US economy in the early part of the downturn.
[15:10:11]
SOLOMON: Well, not even just the early part of the downturn. Up until very recently, Richard, you and I have talked on this program about prior
research notes that showed that there had still been $1.7 trillion of excess savings, but we had been seeing it under the hood.
You talk to economists like Diane Swonk, for example, she had been sounding the alarm that if you actually looked under the hood of excess savings, you
could see that it was starting to be depleted among income spectrums, right? Of course, it was being depleted first among lower-income Americans
and then middle-income Americans.
And so we had been seeing this trend, and so, it seems that we are at now a critical juncture where excess savings appear to be depleted, and so will
Americans continue to spend with inflation still being what it is and interest rates still being high, and perhaps getting even higher?
QUEST: So the only way they spend is by putting it on the credit card and -- well then, lots for us to talk about in the days and weeks and
months ahead.
Thank you, Rahel.
Now two of Europe's largest economies appear to be moving in different directions. Spain has reached a major milestone in its fight against
inflation, where prices rose just 1.9 percent in June. It is the first EU economy to see inflation dip, if you will to below ECB's target.
A different story in Germany where inflation rose last month to 6.8 percent from 6.3 a month earlier.
Now Germany is offering a stark reminder that the war on inflation is far from over. Isabella Weber says policymakers need to shift strategy to focus
on the role of corporations in accelerating the pace of price raises.
Greedflation, sellers' inflation, as she likes to call it, a controversial measure that she puts forward is price controls, as all strategic price
controls.
The professor, Isabella Weber is with me now, professor of economics at University of Massachusetts.
Good to have you, Professor.
Look, when you came out with your article, everybody said you were barking mad, and were probably dangerous. Now, people are sort of saying, well, you
might have a point, actually. Strategic price controls could work, but they've been used in Germany, and arguably, the latest numbers don't
suggest that they have or at least, if they've been effective, they've not been that effective.
ISABELLA WEBER, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS: Yes, thanks so much for having me on. I think the contrast between Spain and
Germany is actually a really interesting one, because we see in Spain a very ambitious approach to fighting inflation that has included a whole
range of measures, so this is kind of an all-out, all cards on deck approach to fighting inflation.
Last year, Spain had higher than European average inflation and now as you said, it is the first country that managed to even undershoot the two
percent target.
So what have they done? They have done things like capping the gas price on the power market to bring down power prices, expanding the grip of
households that can get government regulated prices for gas, and bringing down the cost of public transportation, making all trains in Spain free
throughout this year, introducing a measure that limits the degree by which rents can be increased.
So that overall, these are targeted measures that try to target some of the most important prices in the CPI, that are the most important prices for
consumers, and also the most important prices for many firms, being creative and coming up with measures that are starting from the specific
institutional structures that they have, rather than coming with some sort of abstractly derived package.
QUEST: Why do you prefer strategic price controls, for example, as a way to attack greedflation versus a windfall tax afterwards? I suppose a
company that knows a windfall tax is going to be imposed is less likely to raise prices accordingly to put themselves in the ambit of windfall.
WEBER: Yes, so to be sure, I'm not using the term greedflation because I feel like it leads to a misunderstanding where we think that there might
have been some sudden jump in greed, which I don't think is what we have seen. I'm using the term sellers' inflation instead.
QUEST: Right.
WEBER: And I'm thinking of it as a process where basically, you have these initial very large cost shocks in energy, in raw materials, in shipping,
and so on, that then hit the corporate sector as a whole.
And what we have seen is that the corporate sector has been quite successful in fending off this cost shock by protecting its profit margins,
with some firms being able to also increase profit margins, but the emphasis is here on some, it is not necessarily for all the cases,
especially in Europe.
But overall, this means if you have a gigantic cost shock and the corporate sector isn't paying for it, but is able to transmit the cost shock to
consumers, this means that consumers are paying for the cost shock, which is why I am in favor of upstream measures, not necessarily price controls.
[15:15:11]
Things like the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, I think is a great way of stabilizing oil prices. Price controls are a means of last resort, if you
don't have any other kinds of shock absorbers for systemically important things like oil, like gas, like power, but they can buy time for measures
that correct the supply shortfall and that can kind of reduce this initial shock, which then gives less --
QUEST: Right.
WEBER: To a point to increase their prices.
QUEST: So there'll be people like myself of a certain age who sort of hear the word price control and remember, sort of the UK in the 1970s with
its wage and price control regime across the whole economy.
We need to clarify. That's not what you're talking about. You're talking about very strategic, not some massive bureaucracy that's going to tell you
how much the price of a loaf of bread should cost.
WEBER: Exactly. I'm not talking about total price controls as the US for example, had during the Second World War. I'm talking about strategic
interventions that by the way have to happen when the shock is fresh, right? If you were to go in now, it's of course too late. Energy prices are
already coming down. They already have a disinflationary effect.
But last year, when the massive shock hit as a result of the Russian war in Ukraine, these kinds of measures did have a positive impact. In fact, there
had just been a study coming out from the IMF, that is also suggesting that such targeted measures in the energy sector in Europe were rather a
successful way in contributing to price stability.
And we have the European gas price cap, of course, which is a measure that I think is exactly the kind of measure that we need when we are faced with
these kinds of gigantic mega shocks really in essential areas like gas.
QUEST: Professor, thank you, You very gracefully don't look at everybody and say I told you so as your economic theories have now become more
mainstream and adopted. Thank you, I'm very grateful. Thank you.
As we continue, it is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. A successful spaceflight from Virgin Galactic today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one. Release, release, release.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: And the difference this time, there were commercial passengers. There were paying passengers. The race to commercialize space continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:20:14]
QUEST: In the United States, a jury in Florida has reached a verdict in the trial of Scot Peterson, the former school officer, police officer who
stayed outside the school while a shooting unfolded. Seventeen people died.
Prosecutors say he ignored his training and chose to do nothing while the 17 were gunned down. He has pleaded not guilty to the charges of child
neglect and negligence.
Let's listen in to what's happening.
The judge is looking at the verdict papers, before we actually hear what the verdict is.
Here we go.
JUDGE MARTIN FEIN, BROWARD COUNTY: They read as follows: In the circuit court of the 17th Judicial Circuit in for Broward County, Florida, case
number 19-7166-CF10A, State of Florida, plaintiff versus Scot Peterson, defendant. Verdict: Count one. We, the jury find as follows as to the
defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June 2023 at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count two. We, the jury find as follows as to the defendant in this case. The defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June
2023 at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count three. We, the jury find as follows as the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June 2023
at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count four. We, the jury find as follows as to the defendant -- not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June 2023 at Fort Lauderdale,
Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count five. We, the jury find as follows as to the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June
2023 at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count six. We, the jury find as follows as to the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June
2023 at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count seven. We, the jury find as follows as to the defendant in this case. The defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June
2023 at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count eight. We, the jury find as follows as the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th of June 2023 at
Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count nine. As to the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June 2023 at Fort Lauderdale,
Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count 10. We, the jury find as follows as to the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June 2023
at Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida.
Verdict: Count 11. As to the defendant in this case, the defendant is not guilty. So say we all this 29th day of June 2023 at Fort Lauderdale,
Broward County, Florida.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to address you only by the numbers that are on the back of your badges. Juror number one, are these your true verdicts.
(INAUDIBLE.)
FEIN: Juror number two, are these your true verdicts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
FEIN: Juror number four, are these your true verdicts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
FEIN: Juror number five, are these your true verdicts?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
FEIN: Juror number six, are these your true verdicts?
(INAUDIBLE.)
FEIN: Juror number seven, are these your true verdicts?
(INAUDIBLE)
FEIN: Ladies and gentlemen, I wish to thank you for your time and consideration of this case. I also wish to advise you of some very special
privileges enjoyed by jurors.
No juror can ever be required to talk about the discussions that occurred in the jury room except by court order. For many centuries, our society has
relied upon juries for consideration of difficult cases. We have recognized for hundreds of years that a jury's deliberations, discussions, and votes
should remain their private affair as long as they wish it; therefore, the law gives you a unique privilege not to speak about the jury's work.
[15:25:06]
Although you were at liberty to speak with anyone about your deliberations -- to refuse to speak to anyone. A request to discover -- may come from
those who are simply curious, from those who might seek to find fault with you, from the media, from the attorneys or elsewhere, it will be up to each
of you to decide whether to preserve your privacy as a juror.
Ladies and gentlemen, I want to again give you my sincere thanks for your time effort -- the citizens that live in Broward County, a county of two
million have no idea what happened on jury, and you actually served through the process but now you all know and I know most people don't say thank you
-- because I know the time effort and energy that went into this.
I have a thank you letter in a certificate. I'm going to give that to the court deputy who's going to pass that out when they walk you out because it
has your names on them.
The reason I normally do this in person in the courtroom, but I'm not going to do it today is because I'm not and have not addressed you by your names.
That's why we use the numbers in care of your privacy.
I did also want to let you all know I will be entering an order today that instructs the clerk of court, the trial court administrator as well as both
parties -- your names, okay. So the only way your names are going to be disclosed, is if you choose and you certainly may choose, so if you want to
go out there and talk to whoever you want to talk to, you're perfectly entitled to do that.
QUEST: So there we have the jury's verdict in the case and the significance of this jury verdict is the officer was one of neglect. That
was the allegation, child neglect, he had a responsibility. He was the officer responsible for the protection of those students at that school and
in somewhat of a novel case, the prosecutors went for the idea that he had been derelict to the point of criminal liability; hence, the 11 charges of
child neglect.
And incidentally, he was the only person to be charged in this case besides the person who actually committed the murders. And now clearly, the jury
deciding, well, no, you know, if you're a police officer, you don't have to sort of go in guns blazing or what may, and therefore have found that he
did -- whatever duty he had, it wasn't wanting to necessarily rush in regardless, and this will be interesting and watched for other cases such
as Uvalde, where the police officers waited and waited outside for considerably longer before going in and that is going to be the
significance.
We'll get more details on it in just a moment, but for a moment, we'll take a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:30:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
QUEST: QUEST MEANS BUSINESS -- it's been a month since Uganda passed one of the world's harshest anti-gay laws, a law that has led to increasing
hostility toward the country's LGBTQ community, who now describe living there as hell.
Many of those suffering are refusing to stay silent. CNN's Larry Madowo reports from Uganda.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nash Raphael (ph) says he was assaulted on the night the Anti-Homosexuality Act became law in Uganda, after months of
publicity and hostility toward people like him.
How do you feel about the fact that you keep getting attacked.
NASH WASH RAPHAEL (PH), TRANS UGANDAN MAN: It is bad. It is bad. I wouldn't wish for anyone's daughter or son to go through what I'm going
through because I know how worst it is.
MADOWO: It was the second time this year that he suffered such a violent attack and the ninth since he transitioned.
He says his family disowned him and he got fired from his job for not wearing women's clothes. He is now homeless, jobless and penniless.
RAPHAEL (PH): I tried to take my own life, it hasn't worked.
MADOWO: How would you describe your life right now?
RAPHAEL (PH): It's hell.
MADOWO: The act outlaws gay marriage in Uganda, punishes same-sex acts with life imprisonment and death for what it calls aggravated
homosexuality, which includes sex with a minor or otherwise vulnerable person, having sex while HIV positive and incest.
It was widely condemned internationally before it even passed.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This bill is one of the most extreme anti LGBTQ+ laws in the world. No one should be attacked,
imprisoned or killed simply because of who they are or who they love.
MADOWO: The U.S. State Department advised Americans to reconsider travel to Uganda, due to anti LGBTQI+ legislation, warning that offenders could be
prosecuted and jailed for life or even sentenced to death.
An opposition MP introduced the bill that includes a 20-year jail term for what it calls promoting homosexuality.
ASUMAN BASALIRWA, UGANDAN LAWMAKER: I want to disagree with the people. Homosexuality is the worst kind of concept. No, it is not. We have lived
with homosexuality here in this country, in Africa.
What is reporting is that (INAUDIBLE) -- that was un-African.
MADOWO: You don't see any instances where this law will bring harm to the LGBTQ community in Uganda?
BASALIRWA: But how?
But how?
How, it is not there. This is another law -- it has no problem.
MADOWO: Uganda's LGBTQI+ community is worried the law accuses all of them of pedophilia, grooming or recruiting young people.
JOAN AMEK, CO-FOUNDER, RELLA WOMEN'S FOUNDATION. There is no where that any Queer person living in Uganda will feel safe. This is LGBTQ (INAUDIBLE).
MADOWO: Joan Amek's foundation considers this a safe space for queer women. But she has to find somewhere new to live.
AMEK: I have had myself been just away from where I am staying --
MADOWO: You have been evicted from your house?
AMEK: Yes. I have been evicted from my house.
MADOWO: For being a lesbian woman in Uganda.
AMEK: I have been evicted for being a queer person living in Uganda.
MADOWO: More than 80 percent of Ugandans identify as Christian and almost everyone else's Muslim. The Anti-Homosexuality Act is popular across the
religious and political divide.
The church of Uganda even defied the Archbishop of Canterbury to support the law. Ugandan Anglicans are now separating from the Church of England,
because of different positions on homosexuality.
REV. CANON JOHN AWOOD, ALL SAINTS' CATHEDRAL: This is a social problem, people learn it, so that is the stand of the church here. It is unbiblical,
it is a unnatural, it is -- against the order of God.
MADOWO: How come the church of Uganda and the Church of England are reading the same Bible differently on the matter of homosexuality?
AWOOD: Well people interpret the Bible differently.
MADOWO: Everyone we spoke to in the Ugandan LGBTQ community understood the risk they were taking on putting their faces out there. They could get
evicted from their homes, fired from their jobs, even attacked by the community.
But they did not want to go further underground, go in the shadows, they wanted to make sure that they made a statement that they are here and they
will not be silenced.
[15:35:00]
AMEK: Silence is equals to death. And regardless of whether I stay silent or not, they'll still kill us (ph). They will still criminalize us.
MADOWO: Larry Madowo, CNN, Kampala.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: If you or someone you know is at risk of suicide, there's always help. You can go to cnn.com, our website, and there you will find resources
for 24 hour support.
This isn't just a matter of human rights; it's an economic issue. Anti-gay laws are bad for business. As they say, a coalition of global companies
called Open for Business has looked at exactly this and found that Uganda's neighbor, Kenya, where LGBTQ discrimination cost the country 1.7 percent of
GDP per year.
Lost storage amid inefficient allocation of human capital. Jon Miller is the founder of Open for Business and a partner at Brunswick Group in
London.
Jon, look, the problem I have with this relationship between business and anti-LGBT is that it shows up in your statistics but it never seems to show
up in reality. The reality is that companies continue to do business in these places. And when I've been there, there is a disconnect. People don't
seem to realize it is costing them.
JON MILLER, FOUNDER, OPEN FOR BUSINESS; PARTNER, BRUNSWICK GROUP LONDON: Well, companies are doing business in these countries as well, absolutely
right. And so they should. We're not advocating that companies should be coming out of these countries.
But how are they using their influence, as major investors, you know, as major employees, as major parts of the supply chain in these countries like
Uganda?
And so, they are actually doing that. So you take -- one of the first major companies to speak out when the bill was passed in Uganda was Total
Energies, a major investor in Uganda, a major energy company.
And its CEO --
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: -- and said, you know, this is not in line with our values. And we don't think it's good for the economy so --
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: -- Jon, you say that example and I spoke to the CEO of Total on that very point. Yes, he wrote a letter to the president of Uganda and made
his opposition.
But when I asked him, OK, the bill is now passed, what are you going to do about it?
He says nothing. Now it is time for -- this is what they've decided. This is their legitimate decision-making process. We have to just accept it.
That, to me, suggests a failure of the process.
MILLER: Well, I mean, there are a couple of things there. First of all, all the companies and many other companies that we work with at Open for
Business have operations in Uganda, offices in Uganda.
They are all asking themselves now, how do we take care of our employees there?
But of course, changing the law is a long process. And one of the major concerns at the moment is, for want of a better expressions, contagion.
Obviously in Nairobi, a couple of weeks ago, with the community in Kenya, actually, there's extremely high levels of anxiety about similar bills
being passed, you know, in Kenya, in Tanzania, in Burundi, in Rwanda.
So there is still a lot for business to do to (INAUDIBLE) put the economic case, that this kind of law is not in the interest of the economies in
these countries.
QUEST: I don't think these economies or these governments appreciate the reality of what you are saying. In a sense that you come and say, look, the
numbers here show that this is up by 1.2 percent or this is up by 3 percent or whatever.
But they say, yes, but those companies are still here. They will still do business. They will still employ people. We can pass this law with
impunity.
MILLER: Well, I think there is a concerted, you know, sustained global campaign by a kind of unholy alliance of conservative, you know, populist
politicians and fundamentalists, Christian religious groups that are pushing this agenda.
In reality, policymakers, you know, in countries like East Africa and across Eastern Europe and many parts of Southeast Asia are not making
evidence based decisions about, you know, what's good for the lives of their citizens, what is good for their national economy.
They are making decisions based on extremist, populist ideology. And the data is there, you know. I mean, you referenced that work that we did in
Kenya. And in similar logic, it applies to Uganda.
If you want foreign direct investment, if you want tourism, if you want to stop the brain drain, if you want to cultivate, you know, a cultural,
entrepreneurial spirit of --
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: -- you need to be an open ended (ph) society.
QUEST: Can I just ask you finally, at what point does Open for Business -- or what point, Jon, would you say a company says, you've done this; we are
going to pull out?
We are going to actually -- we are not penalizing you. You have a right to do what you want.
[15:40:00]
But we have a right to hold our values, too. We are going to pull out. We are going to disinvest. We are going to leave.
MILLER: Well, I'll tell you what we are seeing a lot of is companies pausing significant investment decisions and then saying, maybe we don't
want to invest in this country that's got these laws or statutes.
But maybe we want to invest in other countries in the region that's got a more open and inclusive attitude. So whether we will see companies pulling
out or not, I don't know. And it's not necessarily in the interest of people in Uganda for companies to pull out, you know. These companies have
big supply chains and Uganda is largely a small holder farmer based economy, extractives economy; these companies pull out.
What happens to the communities that depend upon them?
But what we are seeing is companies starting to ask about future investments.
QUEST: Jon I'm grateful for you tonight, sir. I'm grateful. Thank you.
MILLER: Great talking to you.
QUEST: We are going to a completely different direction, from the awfulness of the Uganda law to something we're rather looking forward to
actually.
First, the QUEST MEANS BUSINESS Summer Friday. Summer Fridays are back. I will be on board. The USS Intrepid, the aircraft carrier that's a museum on
the west side of Manhattan. We will be talking and exploring and it's all at 8 pm in London, 9 pm in Paris, our first Summer Friday on the Intrepid.
I'll be back at the top of the hour with a dash to the closing bell. Coming up next, it's "LIVING GOLF."
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[15:59:00]
QUEST: I'm Richard Quest. Together, let's have a dash to the closing bell, only 15 away or so.
U.S. economy grew more than originally thought during Q1. It was a 2 percent annualized growth, twice as much as estimates. It's now giving
momentum to the markets. The Dow is up very strongly. The S&P 500 is also higher.
It is techs that are just marginally off and even that might reverse in the last minute or so. If you look at the Dow components, the Feds ran a stress
test of the 23 largest banks and they would all survive a severe recession.
Consequently, you've got JPMorgan, Goldman, Visa, Travelers, American -- you've got them all up for credit cards as well. Weak session for
technology, all lower and Walgreens is at the bottom. It fell almost 10 percent on bad earnings and bad outlook, 10 percent over the course of the
week.
That is the way the markets are looking. It's also our dash for the closing bell.
As always, whatever you are up to in the hours ahead -- what a sound -- the closing bell is -- I hope it's profitable.
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