Return to Transcripts main page
Quest Means Business
IDF Confirms Airstrike Hits Gaza Refugee Camp; Interview with Rep. Rick McCormick on Funding for Israel, Ukraine; Saudi Arabia Makes Only Bid to Host FIFA World Cup Tournament in 2034; Forensic Experts Work to ID Victims of Hamas Invasion. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired October 31, 2023 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:30]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: I'm Julia Chatterley and we do begin with breaking news.
Tonight, mass casualties in Gaza after an Israeli airstrike hit the Jabalya refugee camp. Photos of the site showed multiple large craters and
extensive damage to nearby buildings. Israel confirmed it was behind the strike.
It said its target, a senior Hamas commander was killed. The director of a nearby hospital told CNN hundreds of dead and injured people have been
brought in. He said many people are still under the rubble.
The IDF's international spokesperson spoke to our Wolf Blitzer just over an hour ago. Here is some of that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": I want to ask you first about this massive blast that we all just saw. We saw the video at the
Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza. Is there anything more you can first of all tell us about how this explosion happened?
LT. COL. RICHARD HECHT, INTERNATIONAL IDF SPOKESPERSON: Hi, Wolf. Thanks for having me. So we'll be coming out in the next hopefully hour with more
data, but I can update you now that there was a very senior Hamas commander in that area.
Sadly, he was hiding again, as they do behind -- within civilians, and that's all I can see at this point. We're looking into it and we'll be
coming out with more data as we learn what happened there.
BLITZER: So can you confirm it was an Israeli attack that destroyed a big chunk of that Jabalya refugee camp?
HECHT: Yes, I can. We went -- we were focused again on our target.
BLITZER: And the fact that there are --
HECHT: . a senior commander, Wolf, and we will be updating you with more data as the hour moves ahead.
BLITZER: But even if that Hamas commander was there amidst all of those Palestinian refugees, who are in that Jabalya refugee camp, Israel still
went ahead and dropped the bomb there attempting to kill this Hamas -- this Hamas commander, knowing that a lot of innocent civilians, men, women and
children presumably would be killed, is that what I'm hearing?
HECHT: That's not what you're hearing, Wolf. We again, were focused on this commander, again, you will get more data who this man was, killed
many, many Israelis. We're doing everything we can here. It's a very complicated battlespace, there could be infrastructure there, there could
be tunnels there.
We're still looking into and we'll give you more data as the hour moves ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And in the last hour, the IDF said the strike killed Ibrahim Biari. It described him as one of the Hamas leaders responsible for the
October 7tyh attacks, and that he oversaw military operations in the northern Gaza Strip.
The Israeli military says a large number of Hamas operatives were also killed. A Hamas spokesperson has denied Israel's claim that one of its
leaders was present in the camp.
Selma Abdelaziz is following the story for us, and she joins us now.
As our viewers were hearing there, that was an IDF spokesperson saying Hamas was hiding behind the civilians, but it still put civilians in the
firing line. What do we know about the number of casualties and those injured at this stage?
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, just to answer that question, Julia, if we could start pulling up those images because I think those will
give you an indication of just how tragic, just how much bloodshed could have occurred today in Jabalya refugee camp.
Look at the size of those craters. I mean, these are massive craters into the ground where eyewitnesses say buildings were completely leveled.
According to health officials in the Jabalya refugee camp, 20 buildings, 20 buildings were leveled in what were multiple strikes. One eyewitness
describing it as feeling like the end of the world.
We are processing more images now, but you see in these images that we are yet to clear, just people of all walks of life. You see a little girl right
there, people of all walks of life being pulled out from the remnants of their home, being pulled out from the rubble of their home.
And a bit of context here, we call this a refugee camp, but it is not that. That's a historical term. This is actually one of the most densely
populated neighborhoods in what is already one of the most densely populated places in the world, the Gaza Strip.
[15:05:00]
In over the course of the last three weeks of conflict, families are housing families on top of families, so you're talking every building that
is struck there, potentially dozens of victims inside.
You already have hospitals at breaking point. You already have ambulances at breaking point. You're already running out of fuel, food, water, basics.
And now a strike that has resulted in mass casualties.
Now, this is the north of the Gaza Strip. The Israeli military says it was targeting a senior Hamas commander, as you mentioned, Ibrahim Biari, who
they say was responsible, partially responsible or one of those responsible for the October 7th attacks. But there are civilians caught in the
crosshairs here.
This could potentially become one of the deadliest episodes and what has already been the deadliest conflict in Gaza, and it is going to add to that
chorus of criticism, that growing condemnation, the growing calls for a ceasefire on the ground.
The Israeli military, again, emphasizing in its press conference that people have been told to move south. This is the north of the strip, but
there is no safe place in Gaza. We have heard that over and over again from Palestinian officials from rights groups, from the United Nations, even if
you go south and one of our producers is in the south of Gaza, Ibrahim Dahman, and he tells us he spends his day looking at airstrikes.
So just another horrifying episode. We're getting more information by the hour, but expect that death toll to just rise and rise, Julia. There will
be families burying their loved ones tonight.
CHATTERLEY: Salma Abdelaziz, thank you so much for that report there.
Let's get more context now. Marwan Jilani is the director-general of the Palestinian Red Crescent, and he joins us now from Ramallah.
Marwan, thank you so much for your time this evening.
Can I ask you what you're hearing from your colleagues there about the impact, about those casualty numbers and those that were injured in this
strike?
MARWAN JILANI, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, PALESTINIAN RED CRESCENT: Yes, as you know, our ambulance service has been stationed next to the UNRWA Clinic in
Jabalya refugee camp after our center -- health center was destroyed few days ago.
So our colleagues have been to the area where the bombardment has taken place. This is the biggest refugee camp in northern Gaza, a huge
destruction, many injuries. Our colleagues have dealt with tens of injuries and they've transported alone 30 people who have been killed.
This is only our ambulances. Our people who have counted, who have transported those to the hospitals, to Yemen Hospital and to the Indonesian
hospitals. We are only one service in addition to the Civil Defense and to the Ministry of Health ambulance service.
So we expected the toll to increase. There are so many people under the rubble, we cannot reach -- people are using their hands in order to reach
to those who are until now buried under the rubble and we cannot reach them.
It is horrible. It is horrifying. This is another episode of total disregard to Palestinian civilian lives. It is just shocking.
CHATTERLEY: Sir, can I ask you and you and I have spoken in the last few days about the challenges and we know it's been now many days, the
challenges of just supplies, medical supplies to treat those that are injured. You mentioned the loss of life that you and your team have already
seen as a result of this.
What about the capacity to respond and those that need medical help that you can save if you have the right equipment?
JILANI: You know, we're doing our best. As I said, our center in Jabalya was bombed, but our people moved to the UNRWA Clinic. So instead of
evacuating, instead of going to the Gaza City or the south, they repositioned themselves, they repositioned our ambulance services next to
the hospital in order to be close to the information where bombardment is taking place and they are going out. They are risking their lives every
minute under the bombardment in order to rescue and in order to provide this critical emergency medical services.
We have now few -- we have a very huge shortage in medicine and medical supplies, and even water and food. The aid that is coming, the trickling of
aid that's coming through Rafah is not reaching anyway to the north because the Israeli instruction is no aid should go across to the north, so none of
the aid agencies is able to send the aid to the north, not to the biggest hospital in Gaza City, Al-Shifa Hospital, not to our hospital, Al-Quds
Hospital in Gaza City.
So the situation is really dire on top of this humanitarian catastrophe that we continue to see day in and day out.
CHATTERLEY: And sir, I know you're a humanitarian aid giver, you and your people and you're certainly not a politician and don't get political in
these situations.
[15:10:09]
But there are rules surrounding war and the forced need to separate civilians from terrorists, as one party in this situation believes they are
versus fighters and warriors in this kind of situation. What the IDF is saying is that Hamas fighters are hiding behind civilians in this case. Do
you have a message for them in this regard, if they are, indeed using civilians as human shields?
JILANI: You know, the rules of law are very clear and I think the media should also scrutinize this. You have a responsibility.
Do not justify the killing of innocent civilians. The rules of law are very clear, unambiguous. Civilians are to be protected. Israel as the occupying
power has a responsibility to protect civilians, and killing hundreds of people to get to -- if this is true, to get to a person to one militant, to
one fighter is a war crime. This is very clear in the rules of law.
We do not get into politics, as you said, but the rules of law are very clear. We are part of the International Red Cross movement. We do care and
we do disseminate to the armies, to the public to respect the international humanitarian law, and the Israelis know what the rules say.
Every single state party to the Geneva Convention know what the rules of rule of law say, and this is under the rules of law is a war crime. And you
can check with international legal experts, you can check with the Red Cross, you can check with anybody who understands the rules of law, and any
justification is totally rejected. And I think there is a responsibility for the media to stop that.
Because there are people under the rubble, there are people killed. We have already surpassed 8,500 civilians killed. So do not justify, please, do not
justify the killing of civilians by adopting the Israeli narrative.
CHATTERLEY: Sir, I would never do that as a member of the media and I can assure you your message is loudly heard and your message is clear, I think
and directed towards Hamas and the Israelis. They both have a responsibility in this situation.
JILANI: Both sides, yes.
CHATTERLEY: Absolutely, sir.
JILANI: All parties must respect the rule of law. Yes, sure.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you, sir. And thank you for the work you and your team continue to do.
Marwan Jilani, the director-general of the Palestinian Red Cross.
JILANI: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you, sir.
Now Jeremy Diamond is in Ashkelon, and he joins us now. Jeremy, this attack on this refugee camp, I'll reiterate again, the IDF is saying that it was
successful in eliminating Hamas commanders, one in particular that they say is responsible as an architect of what took place on October 7th, but as
we've been discussing, and you heard there, at great human cost, it seems.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.
We are seeing already these reports of hundreds of injured and dead according to the doctors at the hospital in the area. Now, the IDF says
that this strike was a legitimate target. They say that it eliminated as you just mentioned, a Hamas commander who was responsible for the October
7th terrorist attacks against Israel and who also has been the commander of Hamas' fighting forces in the northern part of the Gaza Strip where Israeli
forces have been engaged in a ground combat over the last several days since launching this expanded ground operation inside the Gaza Strip.
According to the IDF, this airstrike on the Jabalya refugee camp killed Ibrahim Biari, the commander of Hamas' Central Jabalya Battalion. And as I
said, they say that he was in part responsible for that October 7th attack.
They say that this strike was carried out as part of a wide-scale strike on terrorists and terror infrastructure belonging to that same battalion,
which they say had taken over control of civilian buildings in Gaza City.
They also say that a large number of terrorists, one estimate from the IDF is 50 terrorists were killed, they say in this strike, but that, of course
does not explain the dozens of others who appear to have been killed in this strike as we have been watching the images pour in from hospitals in
the area. You see women and children among the injured and the dead as well.
And so this will be a matter for the Israelis to answer more questions about. We will continue, of course, to press them on this and what they --
how they feel that they try to limit civilian casualties in this instance, when you look at the scale of the strike.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and the IDF has said they'll provide further information as they get it, so we await that.
Jeremy Diamond, for now, thank you.
[15:15:01]
The Biden administration is pushing one bill to fund US aid to both Israel and Ukraine. Republicans though divided on the idea. That story, when we
come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back.
Protesters disrupted Capitol Hill testimony today from Antony Blinken.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROTESTER: Stop the brutal, brutal massacre in Gaza. The US supporting a brutal massacre.
ANTONY BLINKEN, US SECRETARY OF STATE: Not in the face of an intensifying strategic competition in the Indo Pacific and around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: The Secretary of State acknowledged the passion in the room and said the US is committed to protecting civilian lives in Gaza. He
strongly pushed for a single aid package in support of both Israel and Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLINKEN: The president's funding request has four key elements. First, it provides for our enduring support to Israel and Ukraine, two democracies
under brutal assault by actors determined to wipe their nations off the map.
It will ensure that Israel can continue to defend its people by building on the diplomatic security and intelligence support that the United States has
surged since Hamas' appalling slaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And that request could be a hard sell in the Republican-led House of representatives. After the hearing, Blinken did though meet with
House Speaker Mike Johnson who wants a standalone bill for Israel.
Republican senators are more open to a single bill. Mitch McConnell has voiced his support, and Lindsey Graham said it would be "a huge mistake" to
consider the measures separately.
Oren Liebermann joins us now from the Pentagon.
Oren, a rare agreement, it seems between the White House and the Republican leadership in the Senate on doing this as a joint package. The House
though, a far bigger problem. The question is what's possible?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And that's a key question the Biden administration has to answer, as well as a bipartisan Senate, at
least when it comes to Israel and Ukraine. Worth noting, this was in front of the Senate Appropriations Committee. So this was largely a friendly
hearing on the issue of a supplemental package for both Israel and Ukraine, and many of the questions reflected that you showed there.
Senator Lindsey Graham, he is certainly in favor, as well as Senator Mitch McConnell, the leader of Republicans in the Senate. The question, of
course, is what happens if this is passed when it gets to the house, where there is a far harder sell. They want to break it up.
House Speaker Mike Johnson quite clear on this point, pushing for a $14 billion aid bill for Israel, but that comes from money that would have gone
to the IRS. So this isn't simply new or additional funding there, he wants to divert it from other elements or other parts of the US government, where
that is probably a nonstarter when it comes to the Senate.
So this is a very difficult challenge facing not only Congress, but also the Biden administration. It's also worth noting here that this is the aid
that the US has to give Israel and Ukraine is finite. Administration officials have said to this point, look, they have enough when it comes to
both Israel and Ukraine, but the most recent security package given to Ukraine, $150 million, was the smallest we've seen, I think in more than a
year. It is one of the smallest aid packages we've seen since Russia invaded Ukraine.
[15:20:10]
So there is a real question out there of how much more aid does the US have to give to Ukraine? How much more aid does it have or is it able to give to
Israel? Now, there isn't a public answer on this question, but it's one the administration may have to answer quickly, if there isn't some sort of
bridge here between what the House is willing to do and what the Senate is trying to do -- Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, aptly put. Oren Liebermann, thank you so much for that for now.
Russia says two of its soldiers have been arrested after a family of nine were found shot to death in their home in Russian occupied part of eastern
Ukraine.
Scott McLean has more on this horrific attack.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even in a war zone, this is particularly disturbing.
A family of nine people including two children, both under the age of 10 were found dead inside their home in Volnovakha, which is in Russian-
occupied eastern Ukraine. It was taken by Russia early on in its full scale invasion.
Images released by Ukraine show that multiple people had been shot in their bed, some still cuddled up to each other. We're only showing one of the
photos. This is the least gruesome of the pictures released.
Exactly what happened is far from clear, but according to Ukrainian prosecutors, soldiers arrived and demanded that the family leave so that
their home could instead house Russian troops.
The owner said no, but gunmen showed up days later and shot all nine while they were asleep.
Local officials on the Russian side say that two Russian soldiers were arrested and said that the initial assessment showed that the murder motive
was a domestic conflict.
Both Ukraine and Russia are now investigating.
Scott McLean, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: We will be back after this. Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Just in, former Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew has been confirmed as the new US ambassador to Israel.
The confirmation comes despite opposition from some hardline Republicans who were critical over his involvement with the Iran nuclear deal during
the Obama administration.
[15:25:01]
And it's now around 9:30 PM in Gaza and a massive explosion at a refugee camp in Gaza has caused many casualties according to Palestinian officials.
The Israeli military says its aircraft carried out an attack in the area killing a senior Hamas commander and a large number of terrorists. The UN
says that Jabalya was the largest refugee camp in Gaza. Egypt is now strongly condemning the strike calling it inhumane.
Here in the United States, a Pentagon spokesman says Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians and Israel continues to urge civilians to
move to southern Gaza, but the situation there of course is not much better.
A CNN producer has documented life with his family there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(IBRAHIM DAHMAN speaking in foreign language.)
TRANSLATION: My family fled northern Gaza, but we still don't feel safe.
What's wrong? Don't be afraid.
Every night, airstrikes hit Khan Younis.
With no sense of time, the days roll into one.
We pass the time by watching airstrikes. There are too many to count.
This used to be someone's home. Now, they've likely become one of the dead.
Strangers don't volunteer to search for their remains.
Food is scarce where we are staying. We cook and share whatever we can. We teach the children, too, so that if we are killed, they can feed
themselves.
The tanks are filled with impure water. We try to keep our spirits up.
There is camaraderie in the chaos.
The explosions become louder this weekend, as Israel expanded its ground operation, leaving us in a blackout.
Only Israeli phones worked, so some tried to keep a sense of normalcy.
All I could think of was my parents' safety, and pray my family made it through the night.
But even in a war zone, there is light in the darkness. My wife is three months pregnant. Just like our sons, this baby has the power to turn our
fear into joy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: And Nic Robertson joins us now from Sderot.
Nic, I want to get back to one of our top stories today, which is the Israeli attack on the Jabalya refugee camp. The IDF have called it a
complicated battle area. I assume we're going to hear more about what was achieved beyond the fact that they took out a significant Hamas commander
and others as a result of that. In many ways, though, it does feel dwarfed by the images that we're seeing of the devastation that was created and the
civilian impact, too.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And as well, on top of that, Hamas is saying they're not providing evidence, but they're saying
this commander that the IDF says was killed in the strike, they are saying he wasn't in the camp, and therefore wasn't killed in that strike. So
there's even a contest over what was actually achieved.
And undoubtedly the images, the doctors in the hospitals struggling to deal with the casualties who are being treated they say on floors and in
corridors, because they're quite literally at full capacity.
The scenes of the devastated buildings, what appear to be multiple impact strikes the comments from witnesses saying inside Gaza that they saw an F-
16 fire multiple missiles. The fact that the authorities In Gaza, the Hamas controlled authorities in Gaza say that 20 homes were destroyed in this
strike.
The IDF described their way of operations with the ground incursion troops on the ground inside of Gaza, that they go in and identify locations,
strongholds of Hamas, and they call in airstrikes.
[15:30:24]
This does seem to be in keeping with how the IDF describes the way that it fights. They say they had identified a Hamas commander and other fighters
with him, and then airstrike came in. Some of these airstrikes we hear, we hear a lot of, them and some of them have very heavy detonations.
And the detonations go deep because they're designed to target tunnels and the IDF is saying that this was such a situation, where they were hiding
from -- hiding behind civilians but in tunnel systems.
And in the refugee camp, that is as densely crowded and populated, the whole Gaza Strip, barely 26 kilometers long, 2.2 million people, the
Jabalya refugee camp is the largest of eight refugee camps U.N. agencies say inside of Gaza. More than 110,000 people living in an area they
describe as being 1.4 square kilometers.
So this is a very densely packed neighborhood. The IDF has dropped flyers, has told people to move to the south. But many of Gaza's residents, some
have moved, some moved it came back because they couldn't get shelter. And some are afraid to leave now because there are ground troops inside and on
the streets close to their homes.
They don't know how to move safely. So when the IDF described it as a complex battle space, it is hard to imagine a battle space that gets more
complex than one that is crowded by civilians, with an enemy who you have already defined as hiding behind civilians.
But going into, this the IDF said that Hamas has the responsibility for the civilians. Their responsibility, the IDF's responsibility is to target
Hamas because they've asked the civilians and told them that they need to leave the area.
The arguments in this go around and around in circles between Hamas and the IDF. Prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu says we don't intentionally target
civilians.
And that is something that is echoed by the U.S. Shape department and by the White House today as well as the Pentagon, saying that they don't
believe that the IDF was intentionally targeting civilians.
Prime minister Netanyahu here says that there is a moral distinction, that Hamas came into Israel and intentionally killed civilians.
He said that is something that we don't do. But these are the arguments, and many in the international community find it hard to buy those arguments
coming from the Israeli government, when the casualty toll is so high.
It is over 8000 people killed in Gaza and, according to the officials who have that figure, the Gaza authorities controlled by Hamas, they say that
two thirds of them are women and children and the elderly.
None of this stacks up in Israel's favor, saying that it's going after terrorists. However, this is where the situation stands right now. And
despite that international pressure, Israel is only really at the beginning of what they are describing as a very long ground incursion with no cease-
fire in sight.
It points toward an escalation, toward regional enemies of Israel getting involved. It feels, at this moment, witnessing and being able to see on all
of these images the pain and destruction there, knowing that Israel went through a similar thing on October the 7th.
I was with a young lady who was at that music festival. And during the music festival not far from here along the border today. It was the first
time she had been back. She went with six friends.
Only her and her other friend survived and she showed me the hedgerow where she hid, watching your friends being shot, lined up in cold blood by Hamas,
as they begged for their lives.
This is in terms of a discussion here in Israel and with the residents of Gaza. It is a discussion that, at the moment, does not go anywhere. It is
what is speaking loudest at the moment. And we've seen it today, the big guns in the missiles. And that is horrible civilian casualties.
CHATTERLEY: But it is an important piece that the story -- and I'm glad you mentioned it, because in 34 minutes, we have an -- and that is as well
in Gaza -- are more than, what, 200, now we think 240 hostages that the IDF are trying to locate and try to make progress as they do with these
tunnels.
[15:35:05]
You mentioned it briefly and I just wanted to quickly get your sense of progress and where we are. Because we know the IDF troops now are making
progress as they appear on the north and on the east as they approach Gaza City.
They've talked about this operation now that is taking place within the tunnels.
Do we have any sense of perspective on progress and how much longer they intend to continue, whether or not public opinion and the devastation that
we're seeing as a result allows it?
ROBERTSON: It is very hard to gauge the real progress on the ground and perhaps physical territory is a measure of progress. I think that the
government here defines progress in the number of Hamas commanders and fighters that they take out. There is an estimated 50,000 fighters.
The government set itself a target of completely destroying the whole of Hamas from top to bottom, which many analysts say is something that is
impossible to do because there are, A, so many of them and, B, it is an ideology.
And you can kill the people who are the front of that ideology. But you don't kill the ideology and you don't kill the anger. And so what is a
measure of success here is a measure of how well they are doing on the ground. The number of terrorists, the IDF claims to have killed, is it how
far the tanks have advanced?
Is it how secure the IDF feel that the streets that they are on are secure?
And also the IDF continues to talk about hospitals in particular as locations where Hamas is hiding out. We're not aware so far that the IDF
has taken control of any of those hospitals.
And so if hospitals are a point that, the IDF says, Hamas hides, at and obviously hospitals are not the sort of place that the IDF can target, they
will have to go gain control of those hospitals if they're going to eradicate them of Hamas or deny them to Hamas.
And so I think that we are at the very early stages of a ground incursion that Israel has warned will be long and will be different to anything that
we have seen in the past. At the moment, that trajectory, despite everything that we've seen today, that trajectory has not changed.
CHATTERLEY: Nic Robertson, thank you for your perspective as always.
We are now joined by Representative Rich McCormick, who is a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and he is joining us now from Georgia.
Congressman, good to have you with us tonight. Thank you so much for your time.
You are a veteran. You are also a doctor. You were a helicopter pilot too for the Marines. You understand operating in a war environment I think
better that the most of us at this moment and the consequences, the human and life civilian consequences of military objectives.
What do you make of what we have seen in the past few hours with this attack on this refugee camp?
Does it make the conversation about more money to Israel, the difficult conversation about supporting Israel and their objectives, that much harder
in light of what we are seeing?
REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): Before any of this really went down, as soon as we knew the Gaza Strip had become erupted into Israel and I knew tat
Israel was going to retaliate, I said right off the bat, there's going to be horrible ramifications from a ground war in Gaza.
We knew this was going to happen. This is part of war. If you don't think that even the greatest successes that we've had in war historically at any
point in World War II which we glorify all the time, there was a human tragedy of unparalleled proportions during that war, where millions and
millions, tens of millions of innocent people were killed.
We had over 200 people executed by the United States who were United States soldiers who did war crimes. War is a horrible thing or else we would
become too fond of it. That's not my original saying but it's true.
Horrible things happen during the war and the reason that war happens is because one people attack another people. Sometimes it's by some
(INAUDIBLE) not. In this case I don't know why Hamas decided to go into Israel.
They certainly weren't occupied by Israel at the time. They came in and they beheaded babies, they raped women, they kidnapped people. That is what
started this.
And everyone in the Gaza Strip laid down their arms right now, we would have peace. If everybody in Israel laid down their arms, we'd have no more
Israel. And people would be annihilated. That's the fact of the matter.
War is a horrible thing and there's going to be continued innocents that are going to die on both sides. I hate it with all of my heart. But Hamas
has to be rooted out. They are the problem.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I guess a critic of what you just said would say that there has not been peace for many years and it's not as simple as what took
place in the last few weeks, the unspeakable events of October the 7th required a response.
[15:40:00]
And that is the message from the United States. The question is, and I think the United States has warned about this both publicly and privately
that mistakes by the United States and other nations have been made in the past.
Is there a line that should not be crossed?
And are we approaching that line that, at some point, the cost of the military objectives is too high and perhaps another strategy need to be
employed?
MCCORMICK: People who think that they're going to have a clean war don't understand war. There is no such thing. I've never heard of a war, whether
it's Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Vietnam, World War I, World War II, you name it.
I've never seen a war where you were strategically and were able to extract exactly what you wanted without civilian casualties. That is impossible.
(CROSSTALK)
CHATTERLEY: A justifiable war, I guess is the question.
Is this still a justifiable war?
MCCORMICK: We've written books on us. And there's no such thing as a justifiable war because war is a horrible thing. When you are talking
about, when people attacked the United States, if somebody took your family and killed your family, I think you'd have a different perspective on it
that if this was just some arbitrary person who dies.
These people are literally fighting for their survival. Israel is surrounded. They are the only democracy in that region. They understand
that their survival is literally at stake right now. They have a two front war whether they wanted it or not. They're going being attacked from
Lebanon, from Yemen, from the West Bank, from Gaza, all simultaneously.
Missiles are coming from everywhere. This is a matter of rooting out the people who would do them harm, not just harm but eliminate their very
existence. This is a fight for survival.
And anybody who has been to Afghanistan, who've seen people who switch their allegiance rapidly and you wonder why, it's just because they're just
trying to make it to the next generation. That is as rudimentary to being human as anything that exists in human nature.
CHATTERLEY: And the problem is I could substitute the Palestinians in and I don't substitute Hamas in but I could substitute the word Palestinians in
for what you just said for the Israelis here.
But I do want to get your point about what we're seeing in terms of Congress, in terms of trying to get a package at least as far as the Senate
Republicans are concerned, and the White House, of course, too, a dual package that provides aid to both Israel and the Ukrainians.
The challenge, of course, is the new leadership of the House. He seems determined to simply provide aid to Israel.
Can I ask where you stand and what do you think is possible ultimately from Congress?
Will Ukraine be --
(CROSSTALK)
MCCORMICK: So first of all, just to clear up --
CHATTERLEY: Please.
MCCORMICK: -- sure. To clarify a couple of points, first of all, you're right on the Palestinians. They've been used and abused by the Hamas
regime, which only a small percentage of the population, whether it be in Afghanistan or Gaza, is really responsible for that violence and for all
the death that happens down range.
I agree with 100 percent on that point. But when it comes to the aid package, I don't think that the Speaker is only going to do the Ukraine
package. He wants to do it individually and separately because otherwise it gets confounded and it gets more difficult to deal with different
factions.
I think that we have near universal support for Israel. We want to have good accountability for where that money goes to be consistent with our
philosophical boundaries of where we spend our money and how it helps.
I think that is why the way that we are paying for this is kind of unprecedented. I want to talk about an emergency funding item and then to
look for PayGo. I do not think that is consistent with historical emergency fundings.
And I think it is something to be careful of. And it's also something, this IRS money has been cut into several different bills. And so it is
consistent with the fact that you either cut it one place or another but you cannot cut it in three different places and call it the same savings.
So I want to have an honest, transparent conversation about this. I do not think that Ukraine is going to be ignored. I do not think that the southern
border is going to be ignored. I think we have to take a stand on each one individually, which is I think a better way to pass things.
But I know that the Senate has their own ideas and so does the president and so this is something that we have to come to grips with this week.
CHATTERLEY: We will see what happens. Sir, I've run out of time. Good to chat with, you thank you so much for joining us this evening.
Representative Rich McCormick there.
Sir, thank you.
All right, stay with CNN, we will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:45:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back.
Saudi Arabia is the only nation asking to host the 2034 World Cup, according to FIFA. Riyadh threw its hat in the ring just minutes after FIFA
called for Asia and Oceana bids on October 4th. Australia initially said it would consider a bid.
But then on Tuesday's deadline day announced that it would not compete. Some advocacy groups are already voicing concern. Amnesty International
says that FIFA will need to make sure that Saudi Arabia complies with human rights policies.
Don Riddell is with me now.
I can already hear the cries of sportswashing and beyond, Don.
What do we make of this?
DON RIDDELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For sure, Julia. Thank you very much.
At the last World Cup in Qatar, Saudi Arabia were the only team to beat the eventual champions Lionel Messi and Argentina. And now, as you say, it
seems as though they have pulled off another really unlikely win.
They are going to be hosting the tournament in 2034. The news came as Australia withdrew their interests, leaving the Saudis as the only country
to have submitted a proposal by FIFA's bid deadline on Tuesday.
Football Australia explained that they have decided to focus instead on trying to stage other competitions down under.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES JOHNSON, CEO, FOOTBALL AUSTRALIA: We felt that we were better served putting our time, our efforts and our resources into bidding for the 2026
Women's Asian Cup and also focusing on the '29 club World Cup.
And we think we would be good candidates for these competitions. And that is where we think we will allocate our time toward. If the Saudis have the
bid, of course, we would be supporting Saudi Arabia. But most importantly we're very happy that the 2034 World Cup will come to Asia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIDDELL: Australia just successfully hosted the Women's World Cup tournament and they would've been a strong contender to host the men's
competition as well, especially since FIFA was only inviting bids from Asia and Oceania.
In recent years, Saudi Arabia has been pouring money into sports, hosting Formula 1 races, heavyweight title fights and the and event on BP World
tour before launching the controversial LIV Golf series as well.
But it is in football that they have made by far the biggest splash, spending a fortune to lure the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo to play in their
Saudi pro league and buying the Premier League football team Newcastle United.
Now, of course, they have the biggest prize. The tournament in 2030 is set to be a joint venture between six countries on three continents -- Spain,
Portugal, Morocco, Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina.
FIFA says that they will confirm the locations for both 2030 and 2034 at the end of next year. But with the involvement of Saudi Arabia now
virtually guaranteed, human rights advocates are concerned.
Saudi Arabia is routinely criticized for its human rights abuses. On Tuesday, the Sports and Rights Alliance, which is a global coalition of
human rights and anti-corruption advocates in sports, they urge FIFA to secure human rights protections for both the tournaments in 2030 and 2034.
Julia, back to you.
CHATTERLEY: Don Riddell there, thank you very much.
When we come, back King Charles expressing deepest regret for past wrongs in Kenya. More on his state visit to the former East African colony next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:50:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. And to Israel now. Forensic experts are still working to identify some of the victims killed during the October 7th
attack by Hamas. Sara Sidner has more details. And I have to warn you, her report does contain disturbing images.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are Hamas militants, arriving at Kibbutz Be'eri on October 7th, terrorizing
residents.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).
SIDNER (voice-over): The last conversation between a mother and son in Kibbutz Be'eri. Her daughter, Michal Pinyon, shared it with us, her last
memory of her mother, as Hamas descended on her parents' home.
MICHAL PINYON, RESIDENT OF KIBBUTZ BE'ERI: I know after a half an hour she was writing, "Help, help." And then it was quiet.
SIDNER (voice-over): The next time she saw her parents, they were in coffins.
Some families have yet to say goodbye. Outside Tel Aviv at the rabbinical shura military base, inside these containers, there are hundreds of
unidentified bodies, many mutilated and in fragments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This place is indeed pure. It's holy. It's a paradise. But it's also hell.
SIDNER (voice-over): Forensic experts, dentist and rabbis are working day and night to identify the victims of October 7th.
SIDNER: The smell is completely overwhelming. I mean, completely overwhelming, even with this on. And it's refrigerated but some of the
bodies are just in pieces. It does not take much to be really badly affected by just looking at the horror of that.
SIDNER (voice-over): Even those whose job this is are struggling.
CAPTAIN MAYAAN, FORENSIC DENTIST: You see the lack of humanity. And you see pure cruelty. During our identification process, we heard the screams
and we heard the cries of the families that came and said their last goodbyes.
SIDNER (voice-over): The brutality of the Hamas attack is forcing a change to burial rights here, usually very strict in Judaism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): According to Jewish law, we bury the dead when they're in the ground. In this case, we buried them in their
coffins, because we want to respect them but also because there is not much left of them.
SIDNER (voice-over): Michal Levin Elad and her colleagues say this is the worst thing they've ever seen, because of the evidence of torture.
MICHAL LEVIN ELAD, NATIONAL FORENSIC INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT: I started crying and the other people hugged and we have these breaking moments,
because this is -- these are atrocious crimes. These are crimes against humanity.
This is not regular murder or terror attack or bus explosions. We see all of this in Israel. But never anything like this.
SIDNER (voice-over): What she does know for sure is this is more death and torture than she has ever seen in her career.
Cemeteries like this one are popping up across the country.
SIDNER: This is just a temporary grave site that's being dug for the victims of the October 7th Hamas attack. When you look at these graves, you
can see the remnants of some of the things they loved in life.
But there are some gruesome details. One of these graves, for example, has two bodies from a family buried together.
SIDNER (voice-over): Families are insistent that --
[15:55:00]
SIDNER (voice-over): -- these temporary resting places are just that, temporary.
PINYON: We don't want them to be buried in another place. They are people of Be'eri. This is their home, this is their community. They cannot be
buried anywhere else.
SIDNER (voice-over): That is because, so far, Kibbutz Be'eri is still under control of the Israeli army. It's too dangerous to go back and Pinyon
realizes her family is just one of potentially 1,400 having to make this awful decision.
Three weeks in, she says they have no idea when they can go home again and when they can finally bury her parents, Amir (ph) and Mati (ph), in their
final resting place -- Sara Sidner, CNN, Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: We will be right back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHATTERLEY: King Charles says he feels the, quote, "deepest regret" of Britain's colonial abuses in Kenya. It was a British colony for seven
decades, gaining independence in 1960. Charles acknowledged that history at the start of a four-day visit to the nation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES III, KING OF THE U.K.: The wrongdoings of the past are a cause of the greatest sorrow and the deepest regret. There were abhorrent and
unjustifiable acts of violence committed against Kenyans, as they waged, as you said at the United Nations, a painful struggle for independence and
sovereignty.
And for that, there can be no excuse. In coming back to Kenya, it matters greatly to me that I should deepen my own understanding of these wrongs and
that I meet some of those whose lives and communities are so grievously affected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: This is Charles' first visit to a former colony since he became monarch. He will also focus on the present, too, discussing climate
change and economic cooperation with Kenya's leaders.
And that just wraps up the show. Thank you so much for watching. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" is up next. We'll see you tomorrow.
[16:00:00]
END
