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Quest Means Business
Israeli Security Cabinet Approves Ceasefire Deal In Lebanon; Shares In GM, Ford Fall On Trump's Tariff Threat; Centeno: US Will Suffer If It Slaps Tariffs On Europe; Opposition Against Australia's Planned Social Media Ban Grows; Study Shows AI Chatbot Helps Debunk Unfounded Beliefs. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired November 26, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:39]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Bells are all rung on Wall Street and the market closed up 123, I say, down, because
you can see how the market is most of the session, but it eked out quite decent gains towards the close and those are the markets and the main
events that we are talking about tonight.
Israel's Security Cabinet has approved a ceasefire deal in Lebanon. The Israeli Prime Minister is vowing to resume fighting if Hezbollah violates
the agreement.
Donald Trump has pledged tariffs on Canada, Mexico, and China. The stocks affected are falling.
And Australia is planning to ban social media for children under 16. I will be talking to a young activist who is arguing strongly against the ban.
Live from New York on Tuesday. It is November the 26th. I am Richard Quest in New York, as elsewhere, I mean business.
Good evening.
In the last few hours, the Israeli Security Cabinet has approved a ceasefire deal that would end the fighting with Hezbollah in Lebanon. The
deal aims to implement the UN Security Council Resolution 1701. That was the resolution, which ended the 2006 Lebanon War. The resolution says
Israeli Forces must withdraw from Southern Lebanon. Only Lebanese troops and UN peacekeepers are allowed south of the Litani River.
The prime minister of Israel spoke after the vote when he said Israel will resume fighting in the future if it is necessary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): If they fire missiles, if they puts trucks with missiles, we will attack. And I
know it has been said that once we agree on a ceasefire, we won't be able to do it. But I remind you, this is exactly what we've been told when we
have a ceasefire with Gaza in order to bring back hostages, our hostages they said we will not be back fighting and we did, big time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: President Biden spoke after the vote to approve the deal. The US president said it is intended to end the fighting for good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Security for the people of Israel and Lebanon cannot be achieved only on the battlefield and that is
why I directed my team to work with the governments of Israel and Lebanon, to forge a ceasefire, to bring the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah to
a close.
Under the deal reached today, effective at 4:00 AM tomorrow, local time, the fighting across the Lebanese-Israeli border will end -- will end.
This is designed to be a permanent cessation of hostilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, a moment ago, I mentioned that this deal was one to implement Security Council Resolution 1701, which brought to an end the 2006 war
again with Israel and Lebanon, so we need to know more about that particular deal.
CNN's Salma Abdelaziz tells us about that landmark resolution from nearly 20 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has approved in principle an emerging ceasefire deal. That is
according to sources familiar with the matter.
The US-backed proposal calls for a 60-day cessation of hostilities in Lebanon. But did you know there is already a peace agreement between Israel
and Hezbollah? It is called Resolution 1701 and it dates back to 2006.
Originally resolving the then war between Israel and Hezbollah. Now, diplomats say that reviving this nearly two-decade old deal could end the
fighting in Lebanon today.
So what are the key principles of 1701? First, that all armed groups in Lebanon must disarm. Second, no foreign forces are allowed into Lebanon
without the government of Lebanon's consent.
And finally, a buffer zone was established that would be manned by up to 15,000 UN peacekeepers to ensure the peace.
[16:05:01]
Fast forward and you have a Hezbollah that is the dominant political and paramilitary force in Lebanon. As for foreign forces, they are indeed on
the ground. Israel invaded Lebanon on October 1st, and finally those UN peacekeepers, the many thousands on the ground, they are caught in the
crossfire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: So what this deal is all about. Jim Sciutto, is with me.
I want to divide it into three things. First of all, the significance of this 1701 resolution and how it has played out before and why this is the
reference point.
In fact, let's start with that. that's good. Let's not waste time. Why are we talking about 1701?
This was used in 2006. Did it fall apart? What happened? Why now?
JIM SCIUTTO CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it clearly didn't -- it clearly didn't prevent the war, right?
QUEST: Right.
SCIUTTO: And you had a bunch of provisions of that agreement that will be resurrected in effect in this one, one of which is the UN forces along the
southern portion of Lebanon as part of the peacekeepers of this. But you've had those peacekeepers there for 18 years, right, and they have not been
able to maintain the peace or to keep Hezbollah back from the border or to keep Hezbollah from firing into Northern Israel.
I mean, basically, this agreement came to be because both sides wanted to make the agreement now, Hezbollah and Israel, the question is, does it
survive these 60 days? And what happens afterwards?
QUEST: So who was the driving force? If they wanted to do the deal, who was the interlocutor that made it or helped it happen?
SCIUTTO: Listen the US was central to this, right? I mean, this has been a priority of the Biden administration for weeks since Israel launched the
war inside Lebanon, and you've had these parallel negotiation tracks. The one regarding Hamas in Gaza involving the hostages, which has been stop and
start and really been frozen for some time and then this one.
But this one managing to come together in a way that that one has not. And ultimately, it is because the two parties in the north, Israel and Lebanon,
were willing to take a pause. The two parties in the south, Israel and Gaza and Hamas and Gaza, not ready to come to that sort of agreement.
Now, one can influence the other, though, right because they were -- because Hamas and Hezbollah deliberately connected those two wars.
Hezbollah launching this larger assault on Northern Israel in the wake of October 7th. Now they're split and I think one can reasonably argue that
Hamas is in a weaker position because it doesn't have that pressure applied by its ally in the north.
QUEST: I am grateful, sir. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Thank you.
QUEST: We will talk with Aaron David Miller, senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Was this a case of both sides, you know recognizing this is going nowhere except getting worse to our mutual disadvantage therefore, let's do a deal,
even though maybe neither of us really want to do it.
AARON DAVID MILLER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Richard, I think you broke the code here. In my experience in negotiations, basically, is that parties
come to a conclusion to make tough decisions when there is urgency.
When the pain of doing the agreement is somewhat lessened for not doing it, and I think Israel wanted this agreement and Hezbollah needed it and as a
consequence, what you have is a transaction, let's be clear. ' You have a transaction. You don't have a transformation. The Israeli- Hezbollah rivalry is going to continue. I suspect the Israelis will continue to operate north of the Litani River, for example, in order to
staunch weapons deliveries from Iran via Syria into Lebanon.
The Lebanese government, I don't think, is somehow going to magically discover its political courage and challenge Hezbollah since Hezbollah will
remain the primary and most powerful formidable decision maker, will the Lebanese Armed Forces, which are supposed to deploy to the south actually
prevent and preempt violations if Hezbollah violates the accord?
And finally, to what degree is the US prepared to give the Israelis space and time to operate in an effort to prevent or preempt violations?
So I think its iffy. I think 30 days from now, Richard, we will have a much better sense as to whether or not we are going to get through the 60-day
implementation period. One additional point, the irony of ironies is if the clock starts tomorrow and you count down 60 days, that would be what,
January 26th? Yes, seven. So that's seven days after Donald Trump is inaugurated.
[16:10:03]
So it may well be that despite his willingness, I think to see this resolved before he becomes president, he could end up with a crater and a
crisis as one of the first acts of his presidency.
QUEST: Does -- you heard Jim Sciutto a second ago. The ceasefire, it is not a peace, the ceasefire that will exist in the north, what will be the
effect on the fighting in Gaza?
MILLER: You know, I never disagree with Jim Sciutto. I think that you had this deal primarily because Benjamin Netanyahu could get it through his
government. Right now, he cannot get a deal with Hamas through his government.
Hamas is going to demand in exchange for the 101 hostages dead and alive, 51 living, perhaps the rest not. They are going to demand an asymmetrical
number of Palestinian prisoners that have been accused or convicted of killing Israelis. They are also going to demand a cessation of hostilities
and probably the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.
Netanyahu is not prepared to make that -- those concessions, so I think the odds of a deal in Gaza in the last -- in the remaining months of the Biden
administration, very, very small.
QUEST: What is your understanding of where Donald Trump actually stands on this? So assuming January, the 21st, it is on now his watch. You know,
Israel was cock-a-hoop at the prospect of Trump's victory or at Trump's victory. But what does Trump do? Does he give Netanyahu carte blanche? I
don't really understand the mechanism by which Donald Trump's authority transmits down in this sense.
MILLER: Yes, well, Donald Trump has no real conception, I would argue, having worked and voted for Republican and Democrat administrations, I
could say. I don't think Donald Trump has a clear conception of the American national interest. I think his foreign policy is subordinated to
his whims and fancies, his financial interests, his political interests, his vanity.
I think though, watching Donald Trump 1.0, he doesn't like losers and he doesn't like messes. And I suspect, that he has already made negative
comments over the last year or two about Benjamin Netanyahu not understanding he has got to get this over with quickly. Israel has a huge
PR problem.
If these conflicts continue, Donald Trump is going to have a large PR problem and that could mean no small measure of awkwardness, and perhaps
tension with Netanyahu.
One more point, he is a transactional guy, Donald Trump. He wants an Israeli-Saudi deal, all right, and the only way to even remotely get an
Israeli-Saudi deal is if you figure out a way to stop the killing and the suffering in Gaza.
QUEST: YOU shame on you, sir. You opened up a can of worms in that last answer that requires me to ask one more question for a yes or no. Does
Benjamin Netanyahu, is he transactional enough to want that same deal with Saudi?
MILLER: Not if it costs him his government and the possibility of a conviction on trial for bribery, fraud, and breach of trust or a plea
bargain that drives him out of politics, an absolute no, if that's what it costs him.
QUEST: There we go. Thank you, sir. As always, grateful.
MILLER: Thank you.
QUEST: QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight, let's turn our attention to our normal agenda, well, it is nothing normal about these days, Donald Trump and his
campaign promise on tariffs. But they're coming sooner than perhaps expected and in a very unusual direction, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:16:38]
QUEST: Shares in GM, Ford, and Stellantis were all lower. Of course, it follows President Trump, the president-elect threatening new tariffs
against NAFTA, it used to be Canada and Mexico.
Donald Trump posted late last night 25 percent tariffs on the first day in office on Canada and Mexico, and increased tariffs by 10 percent on China -
- Chinese imports. These tariffs can be avoided if the countries involved crack down on the flow of migrants, in the case of Mexico and Canada, and
illegal drugs for all three.
Mexico's president is warning the tariffs won't fix the issues. The president said they would likely trigger a trade war. Canada's Prime
Minister Justin Trudeau says he spoke to Donald Trump directly, and they discussed constructive ways to move it forward and China's embassy in
Washington said no one wins from a trade war or a tariff war.
Anna Stewart in London; Paula Newton is with us in Ottawa. I am starting with you, Paula.
Well, if you wanted to get Trudeau's attention, he did. I mean, they had a long conversation, but it is going to be very difficult as I read President
Trump's tweet for Trudeau or Mexico or China to convince the US president to be that they've done what he wants them to do.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST AND CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And I think everyone is trying to parse negotiating strategies at this point. I
mean the Trudeau government's posture so far is to take this very seriously, even though as you just pointed out, Richard, it would be
incredibly disruptive for all of those economies, not just Canada and Mexico, but obviously the United States as well if a 25 percent tariff were
to be put on all imports into the United States.
But that's not the point, right? The point is, what is the negotiating tactic here? And as I said Canada taking a completely different approach
and one that may remain controversial, is whether or not, despite the fact that there is a little bit, you know, about two years left on this current
trade deal between Mexico, Canada, and the United States, do you just say bye-bye, Mexico Canada, the US, we are negotiating our own deal and we will
see what kind of terms we can come to and Canada and Mexico can negotiate their own afterwards.
The one change here, Richard, which I really want to make clear from speaking both to business leaders in Canada, people in the government of
Mr. Trudeau, but also to Trump aides after he won that this is different. This is not bluster, perhaps the 25 percent figure is. But no, they want to
negotiate and they are very serious about negotiating and that might mean that targeted tariffs will remain in place and the Trump administration
wants to go forward with those.
QUEST: All right, okay, Anna let's ponder the Chinese thing. If you look at the top imports from China and the range of things that we are talking
about, there is quite considerable tariffs. You've got all sorts of manufactured goods that come across them, huge. The same with Mexico, same
with Canada.
Clearly, nobody wants there to be massive disruption with problems to economies.
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Yes, so, let's tackle China. What is interesting here is actually 10 percent additional tariffs isn't actually
as bad as President Trump had threatened -- President-elect Trump, sorry, had threatened during the campaign. It was at one stage up to 60 percent.
[16:20:04]
You also have to remember that there are already tariffs imposed on Chinese imports at the moment, actually dating back to the first administration.
Some of them were even increased under President Biden, for instance electric vehicles from China have 100 percent tariff on them. So you can't
really increase that.
More interesting, Richard, of course, is Mexico, perhaps the biggest trading partner, the neighbor here. And of course, this will impact as
trade wars do, not just Mexico, but obviously the US consumer with cars and so on.
QUEST: Paula, is anybody worried or I mean, constitutionally, essentially, Donald Trump has already starting to run US foreign trade policy before he
has taken office. In essence, that conversation he had with Trudeau last night was a negotiation when he is not even president.
NEWTON: And very openly here, Richard. There are ministers of the government here in Canada in the last few hours have said, we've got two
months to negotiate. It has, as if --
QUEST: How?
NEWTON: It has been as if President-elect Trump is actually already president. They are beginning to negotiate the terms right now and this is
the way they are going forward with this. Perhaps this is because they have seen a Trump administration before. They feel more comfortable with going
forward and I am saying that in terms of the Cabinet picks here.
I don't know exactly how this is going to turn out, but I do know that the Canadian government is ready to negotiate today, this afternoon, this
evening --
QUEST: With whom?
NEWTON: -- any time that the president-elect wants to -- with the president-elect and anyone that will speak to them, you can start with the
Canadian ambassador to the -- US ambassador to Canada. That's already been appointed and you can go right to the next Treasury Secretary as well. They
will take all comers in terms of conversations.
I agree with you, Richard, completely unprecedented.
QUEST: Go on, Anna.
STEWART: Well, Mexico's president having a very different approach here, saying that frankly, Mexico could retaliate. We could see tariffs from both
sides. It will impact jobs. It will impact inflation for both countries, not backing down, very different, quite dangerous strategy, I would say and
what is so interesting I think about these tariffs particularly being announced weeks before Trump becomes president, this is negotiations.
Will these tariffs really be imposed in January okay. No one wants to take the risk, but to both of you, start with you and then to you, Paula, pick
up off the back.
The reality is how will we -- we are talking between now and January. You are talking about migrants crossing the border and the flow of fentanyl and
illegal substances across borders.
How will you even know if it has been successful in such a short period of time? Essentially, eight to ten weeks from now. So, Anna, what is the
barometer by which the achievement of success will be?
STEWART: I think you will have to ask the new administration that, Richard. I think what would be helpful, I think, for the negotiations would at least
to have an appreciation from China and Mexico that they will work on this area, but in terms of real proof and statistics as to whether they will
reduce trafficking of drugs and immigration, well that's a bit different.
QUEST: Paula?
NEWTON: Money, commitments, things in writing. Donald Trump talks about executive orders on day one. They will want to see agreements at least in
principle, put into place with both Canada and Mexico on day one and that includes actually putting more resources, perhaps on the border, talking
about innovative ways, although I will say that some leaders in Canada have said look, putting us together with Mexico is not fair. We are
infinitesimal in terms of the issues with either migrants or fentanyl compared to Mexico.
Oh, that's right, nothing like getting you all at each other's throats. We've got four years of this. Get your tin helmets out. Thank you.
Portugal's Central Bank governor says the US tariffs against Europe would only backfire. I was talking to Governor Mario Centeno at the CNN Portugal
International Summit on Monday.
Now, we were speaking before Donald Trump's announcements. The governor says the US would be the first to feel any effects of tariffs.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIO CENTENO, PORTUGAL'S CENTRAL BANK GOVERNOR: Before impacting Europe, it will impact the US and as an economist, I don't believe in the set of
policies that have been put forward, so I think the US will suffer.
Maybe not immediately, but at some point they will suffer because those policies are not coherent for economic growth. Immigration policy tariffs,
the issue on tax cuts, more debt in the US.
Someone has to finance that and I don't know how a more closed economy will be able to deliver, but now let me get to Europe. Europe must listen to
that and that must play out in Europe as a wake-up call.
[16:25:14]
We are always very comfortable sitting in the passenger's seat. That's why we are so worried about decoupling, but decoupling doesn't exist if we
manage a different economy.
If we steer monetary policy and fiscal policy in Europe with the numbers for the European economy in mind, there will be no decoupling. So I am
going to quote Elvis Presley on that, I did it last week at London's School of Economics. If the US follows those policies, we can't go on together.
QUEST: We are at an extremely difficult position when it comes to monetary policy. Rates have been cut and if the expectations are as we believe,
there are many more cuts to come, but the difference now is within the -- between the ECB Gov Council and the FOMC, where they are likely to be a lot
slower.
Do you see a divergence now on monetary policy?
CENTENO: Well, the divergence will only occur if we take the same reality and deliver different decisions and the truth is that, the Euro area and
the US have not been playing out economically and financially equally.
I tend to say that the Euro area has been the greatest provider of stability in the world in the last five years. We are not used to that.
That's a novelty.
The Euro area used to be always in in the downside of the risks that that we saw. During the financial crisis, during the sovereign debt crisis, it
was always an issue around the Eurozone, not this time.
And that allows us to play a little bit more freely on our policies as well.
QUEST: Well, hang on a second. I mean, really, all that's saying is that you haven't been more troubled basically in the previously, the Eurozone
has added fuel to the fire. What you're saying is in this crisis, you haven't.
CENTENO: Exactly.
QUEST: Well, it is hardly an achievement.
CENTENO: It is a very good achievement, an outstanding one as well and we, sometimes don't notice it. Did you hear anything about fragmentation in the
Eurozone in the last couple of years? You don't.
QUEST: Were you surprised that as rates went up as fast as they did, that there wasn't a greater downturn in the economy?
CENTENO: The economy is not playing as strong as it would be if we did not have to hike for 150 basis points in interest rates. That's our sacrifice
ratio. I am not saying that we are not in the side of the economy is not showing the impact of the financial repression that we have in Portugal and
Europe these days.
We are really paying that in terms of growth, in terms of investment. Investment is very, very low in the Eurozone, very low. That is where we
must focus our attention.
QUEST: How long have you been a Central Bank governor? And also working within Europe?
CENTENO: Well, if I had all of that, more than 10 years.
QUEST: How many of those 10 years have you been talking about banking union, capital markets union, fiscal consolidation, fiscal center?
CENTENO: Out of the ten, fifteen.
QUEST: Exactly. So the problem with the Draghi Report is, it has told everybody what they already know, but there is no sense of crisis. There is
no sense of the house is on fire for anybody to do anything about it.
CENTENO: Well, you are absolutely right, because even if the European economy is not growing, its labor market is very strong. These 11 million
jobs were created on the back of almost zero growth of GDP. So it is a very difficult context.
So I don't know what exactly will be the wake-up call. Maybe US policies can act as a wake-up call for Europe. I hope we don't need really a crisis.
It is not on the baseline, so we don't have a crisis in our baseline.
The economy is supposed to recover slowly, but to recover. But that doesn't mean, and I totally agree with you that Europe is much faster to reacting
when there is a crisis, when there is known. But I hope and I really hope that the Draghi Report can help us to make this time different.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Coming up, people who believe in conspiracy theories often refuse to listen to reason. Researchers now say, especially trained AI chatbot might
be more effective for changing their minds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:33:30]
QUEST: And Meta have urged the Australian government on Tuesday to delay a proposed social media ban for children under the age of 16. The bill plans
to put in place an age verification system, which would require showing government I.D., and then would not grant exemptions for children who
receive parental consent or already have accounts.
Youth advocates are already raising concerns over the bill. An activist group called Raise Our Voice Australia recently wrote, "It's essential to
teach children how to coexist with social media rather than ban them from using it." The words belong to youth advocate Jess Travers-Wolf, the head
of political engagement at Raise Our Voices Australia. Jess is with me this morning. Well, morning in Australia, where it's 7:30 or 8:30 when in
Sydney.
Good morning to you, and look, this is an all or nothing, isn't it? And your argument is essentially teach youngsters how to use it responsibly
rather than just banning it overall.
JESS TRAVERS-WOLF, YOUTH ADVOCATE: Yes, absolutely. I think we have a responsibility to teach our young people how to coexist with these
important structures rather than just banning them, which I don't think will be effective at all.
QUEST: But as I read it, you, of course, grew up with Facebook and have been around Facebook all your life, and people of your generation have.
Well, if it was so -- if the teachings that you got over those years were so good, arguably we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in with social
media. I mean, what is the answer for teaching people?
[16:35:02]
TRAVERS-WOLF: Absolutely. I think our current education system is inadequate. So I think that needs a reform. But with this bill, it doesn't
have any education proficiencies. It's just a flat-out ban. And shielding and banning our kids isn't the answer here. I think having mature and age
appropriate discussions definitely is, though.
QUEST: What have if you can't, what if the evidence -- and I realize I'm jumping three stages along, but what if you just can't? If the whole thing
is like it's such a cesspit of toxic material that people are drawn to, what do you do then?
TRAVERS-WOLF: I absolutely agree. And I'm not saying at all that there isn't a problem with social media.
QUEST: Yes.
TRAVERS-WOLF: I think it's pretty clear that there is. But when it comes to -- we've seen other experts around the world with countries that have
implemented similar legislation, and they've said flat-out bans don't work. I'm not saying social media can't be a cesspit from time to time, but I
don't think the ban is the answer.
Social media companies obviously do have a duty of care when it comes to protecting their consumers, particularly young consumers, but this
legislation doesn't place the onus on them. It places the onus on young people. And if we're really serious about enforcing this duty of care, we
need to see real action and penalties against companies who breach this duty.
QUEST: You see, that's the fascinating part, isn't it? This is a multi -- I agree to an extent that the Australian solution does seem to be the
sledgehammer that's often used in the United States. Just ban it and put an end to it. Whereas perhaps what you're saying is a multifaceted approach
because, as you also believe, social media does have an activist role to play for people like you.
TRAVERS-WOLF: Yes, absolutely. Particularly for young people, it's an incredibly powerful community where people can come together and educate
themselves and find like-minded individuals, particularly for young people, where a generation seeing increased loneliness, about 40 percent of us
present with some sort of mental health issue, which is double our previous generations. And social media is a key place for connection, particularly
when it comes to youth advocate movements.
QUEST: Don't you feel that to some extent it's a losing -- or no, not, it's an unfair battle against social media for young people or for any of us in
a sense because they are using algorithmic mathematics to basically hook our dopamine receptors morning, noon and night? And it's not really a fair
battle. So you know, again, back to this idea of how can you teach people responsible, to act responsibly when essentially they're being fed the
drug?
TRAVERS-WOLF: Yes, absolutely. So I think it needs to be a two-pronged approach. Absolutely education needs to start as early as possible with
young people and have that really go through their entire education to set them up to enter this world of social media but we also need greater
regulation on the companies themselves.
QUEST: We will talk more as and when this -- if and when this comes in, and you will guide us through you and your friends, how you are implementing as
necessary.
Thank you very much and enjoy your morning in Australia where of course it's summer so who wouldn't enjoy a summer in Sydney? Thank you.
Here in the United States, where it is just about winter and freezing, families are gearing up for Thanksgiving. Turkey traditions and talk around
the dinner table. For some, that turns to conspiracy theories like the belief that 2020 U.S. election was stolen. A new study finds those
conversations might be better left to an AI chatbot designed and trained to debunk.
Clare Duffy looked at how it works as part of her new podcast, "Terms of Service," exploring the changing relationship with technology.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: OK so I wanted to test out the debunk bot for myself, so I've input one of my favorites sort of goofy conspiracy
theories, which is that birds are not real and have been replaced by government surveillance drones. And we're going to see how the AI responds
to this. I had to describe why I believed this so let's see what it has to say.
It's thinking, OK, so it says I understand your concern. Indeed, the use of animals in espionage has historical precedent, like the use of pigeons in
wartime to carry messages. But then it asks me to consider all of this evidence for why birds are in fact real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Clare, are you satisfied with that answer? Did it debunk the myth or did it just sort of wishy-washily tell you on the one hand, on the other
hand, I could see?
DUFFY: It gave a lot of really important, and I think to me, convincing points about why birds are indeed real. It talked about the diversity of
birds and how hard it would be to replace all of them with robots, and asked, how would you charge all of those robot bird drones?
[16:40:07]
And look, Richard, this is kind of a silly example, but this research did find that artificial intelligence, this AI chatbot can be a useful tool in
helping debunk conspiracy theories in very real and concerning examples like people who don't believe the moon landing was real, or who people who
believe this false claim that the 2020 election was stolen.
And I do think from this example you see some of why it's effective in large part the researchers told me that it's just the scale of information
that the AI has access to, it has access to a lot more information and evidence to refute these false claims than perhaps I would at the dinner
table with a family member who believes in a conspiracy theory.
It also is non-judgmental, and you see that there as well. It says, I understand why you might believe this, but here's the evidence. And so
people don't have that sort of ego driven need to win an argument with the AI. And what's also interesting is that, you know, the researchers said
that this is something that people could use as they head into the holidays, if they think they're going to be having these hard discussions
with family members. They could use this in advance as an argument coach to sort of prepare some of the evidence for that conversation.
QUEST: It also depends, of course, upon both parties accepting the authenticity and the scholarship of the AI. You know, I wouldn't believe
Meta. Oh, I'd only believe ChatGPT. Oh, no, you can't trust that one.
DUFFY: I think that's the biggest question. If they want to move this beyond sort of this research experiment phase that it's in right now is how
do you get people to trust the artificial intelligence. The researchers said that people mostly went in and if they believed in artificial
intelligence before, they were convinced and if they were skeptical of AI before or they maybe weren't as convinced of the outcome.
QUEST: Right.
DUFFY: The other thing I think the big question is how do you get people to engage with the tool that they know is going to challenge these deeply held
beliefs. And right now, this is an experiment tool but I think if they want to make this something that really is helping people in the future, that's
going to be a big challenge that they're going to run up against.
QUEST: Well, your next question to ask your chatbot when you have a moment is, how do I avoid talking about politics at the Thanksgiving dinner table
when Great Auntie Bess comes and she's a Trumper or great Uncle Bill comes and he's a Kamala, and I don't want to talk to either of them. But anyway,
that's a question for another day.
I'm grateful to you. Thank you.
DUFFY: Thank you.
QUEST: And the markets were down at the beginning of the day. They ended up at the day. They're all at fresh records. You see the numbers for yourself.
That is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this hour on this day. Glad that you were with us. You have "World of Wonder" in Sicily coming up next. Whatever
you're up to, I hope it's profitable.
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[16:45:55]
QUEST: October sun and it is absolutely perfect. I always enjoy returning to places for a second and third time. I think it's in some ways more
interesting because visiting new places is relatively straightforward. You work out where you haven't been and you just start working your way through
them. But when you return to a place, it's much more of a conscious decision and you go back and you see things that have changed and the
restaurants that you've been to before, you enjoy and see if they're still there, and you actually get to experience the change and shift.
Catania is a place undergoing change. While it retains a scruffy charm, locals tell me it's gentrifying rapidly. Located on the east coast of
Sicily, it's becoming part of a well-trodden tourist trail on the Italian island. Famed for its food. So no visit is complete without a trip to the
fish market. And I've got one of the city's top chefs to show me.
The market. Ah, the fish market.
MARCO CANNIZZARO, CHEF, BAVETTA: Fish market of Catania?
QUEST: Yes, yes.
CANNIZZARO: They now buy the fish for the lunch.
QUEST: So what are we looking for?
CANNIZZARO: I'm looking for a squid, sardinas, and mahi-mahi.
QUEST: Squid, sardines and mahi-mahi.
Now, what does that tell me?
CANNIZZARO (through text translation): Spectacular.
QUEST: Spectacular.
CANNIZZARO (through text translation): Beautiful.
QUEST: This one? Yes. Look at it. Two kilos. Slept in the sea last night.
CANNIZZARO (through text translation): I need some sardines.
QUEST: He's doing all the work for you.
CANNIZZARO: Not cleaning. Yes, yes. A simple --
QUEST: Yes, yes. cleaning.
CANNIZZARO: All right. Come on.
QUEST: Oh, that sun.
It doesn't rain much here. And I'm not completely sure the locals have fully understood how to use umbrellas.
This oyster stall provides me the chance to try those tips I picked up on a recent trip to Boston.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text translation): Keep being a journalist. Let's see what happens.
QUEST: I thought I'd mastered the art. But the locals are not impressed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text translation): Listen to me, leave it. No, you're going to hurt yourself for sure.
QUEST: No. Oh, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said you're going to hurt yourself. I'm not joking.
QUEST: One more go. No? OK. All right.
CANNIZZARO (through text translation): Oh, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well done.
CANNIZZARO: Well done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text translation): Well done. OK.
QUEST: Before the oyster man told me to shuck off, I managed to prize one slippery little mollusk out of its shell.
CANNIZZARO: Well done.
QUEST: Thank you, sir.
My sweet tooth is legendary. And there's a Sicilian specialty of which I adore.
[16:50:01]
Manolo pastry stuffed with sweet or ricotta that is everywhere. And I want to know how to make one. Marco is going to teach me. And the first step,
make the pastry.
CANNIZZARO: Cannoli. I need the flour 260. 30 grams of --
QUEST: Yes, shortening. This is the pastry bit that I always get wrong.
CANNIZZARO: OK.
QUEST: Yes, yes.
CANNIZZARO: Cocoa powder, six grams. Salt. 20 grams of eggs.
QUEST: What?
CANNIZZARO: Twenty grams.
QUEST: Look, 22.
CANNIZZARO: 23, happy. Marsala 60 grams. Ten grams of vinegar. 20 grams of sugar.
QUEST: Mix it together.
CANNIZZARO: Two hours in the fridge.
QUEST: Two hours.
CANNIZZARO: And then I have this.
QUEST: Here's one I made earlier.
Roll the pastry.
CANNIZZARO (through text translation): And now the final fold.
QUEST: Wow.
Cut to the required size. Creates the cannoli shapes.
CANNIZZARO: And press.
QUEST: And then drop them into a deep fat fryer. The final step of preparing cannoli, that's the plural of cannolo, is fill them with sweet
sticky ricotta just before serving.
What do you think, James?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. That's pretty good, mate. Are you happy?
QUEST: I'm very happy. Showtime.
And I believe I might have succeeded.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Mount Etna is the largest active volcano in Italy. Always referred to in the feminine form, this summer she was particularly volatile, with an
eruption in August that sent ash and lava into the ether.
There's the car we're going to go, and then from now we get to four-by- fours and then we go up toward the summit. It's going to be exciting. Looking forward to it.
Even more interesting, my companion in the cable car is the man who owns the company that's taking me to the top.
This could all be wiped out by a volcano eruption.
FRANCESCO RUSSO MOROSOLI, OWNER FUNIVIA DELL'ETNA: Yes. Yes. It happened five times and no insurance company covers the risk. They say it's
impossible on the volcano cover the magma risk. It's impossible.
QUEST: You've a brave man.
MOROSOLI: No.
QUEST: Ever modest, it slowly reveals more of herself the higher you go and the closer you get.
This is Giuseppe. In fact they are both Giuseppes and they are both Etna experts. This may be everyday stuff for them. For me it's extraordinary.
That's Etna, isn't it? So the original cone was formed when?
GIUSEPPE DISTEFANO, ETNA WALK: This formed about 500,000 years ago.
QUEST: With a volcanic eruption?
DISTEFANO: Yes.
QUEST: Hey, James, this is so way cool. I'm on a volcano, clouds, volcanic -- oh, my. Whoa. It's warm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it really?
[16:55:00]
QUEST: Hey, hey, hey, one of my experts. So just a quick question. So when you get a sort of depression like that, what would that be?
Yes, this would be, because, for many reasons. One, the most common is because there's a huge lava bomb flying, boom, exploded.
QUEST: So it's a crater.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a crater. It's a newfound crater, this one. Yes.
QUEST: Fascinating. Look at it. I think what I find most fascinating about all of this is that it came out of the earth just back in August.
We spent several hours on Etna, looking, wondering, and occasionally stopping to ask silly questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's on top.
QUEST: Now I'm not saying we would, but could we walk up there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want it?
QUEST: No, no, I don't. Is it dangerous?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe.
QUEST: It's the sound.
Eventually it was time to leave.
James.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
QUEST: One last shot.
I couldn't have planned it better because just as we were turning to go.
Yes, yes, yes, we are coming up. Hey.
This has been here more than half a million years, spewing and belching when it wants to. We are a pinprick in time. Not even that and we are so
irrelevant in the grand scheme of things to what that's doing and yet we are everything to it. It's -- how do you -- I don't know. The truth is, I
just feel in awe of it.
To paraphrase that old saying, when you are tired of cannolo, you are tired of Catania. Never. Because there's always room for one more and you'll want
to come here and have a few canola of your own.
Captivating Catania, definitely tasty part of our "WORLD OF WONDER."
You thought I'd forgotten. Never. It truly is a WORLD OF WONDER.
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END
