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Quest Means Business
Hegseth: Returning to Ukraine's Pre-2014 Borders is Unrealistic; US Treasury Secretary Meets Zelenskyy in Kyiv; Boris Johnson: Ukrainians Want to be Free. President Trump Speaks to Press in Oval Office. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 12, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:16]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street. Dow Jones has been down throughout the whole
session, the market, quite sharply, but it has been consistent. And the Dow just -- as trading comes to an end, we have a gavel or three -- one, two,
three -- there we go -- down just half a percentage point, 224 points. Those are the markets. And these are the main events that you and I will
chew over the next hour.
After speaking to President Putin, Donald Trump says negotiations to end the war in Ukraine will start immediately.
Former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson tells me he thinks Elon Musk's government cost-cutting drive is completely right.
And the promise of quantum computing could be a reality in three to four years. On tonight's program, the chief executive of IBM.
Once more, we are live from Dubai. It is Wednesday. It is February the 12th. I am Richard Quest in Dubai, where of course, I mean business.
Good evening.
We are back in Dubai as day two of the World Government Summit has wrapped up and geopolitical developments in other parts of the world continue to
dominate the conversations here. So in the next hour, you'll also hear my discussion with the former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, and we
have learned more since the events here came to a close.
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin have been speaking about ending the war in Ukraine, notably, and importantly, without Ukraine's President Zelenskyy on
the call. Mr. Trump said on Truth Social that the two presidents had agreed to start negotiations immediately.
The Kremlin says President Putin mentioned the need to address the root causes of the war and that he has invited Mr. Trump to Moscow.
Separately, President Zelenskyy and Trump spoke together later in the day. The Ukrainian leader says he is working with the US to ensure a lasting,
reliable peace.
It has been an absolute day of events besides that leading event, the US Defense Secretary in Brussels told NATO allies that Ukraine may have to
give up territory as part of a final peace deal.
Secretary Pete Hegseth met the Ukraine Defense contact group in Brussels and unusually, it was chaired by the UK, not the US.
Secretary Hegseth says he the US expects Europe to handle its own security.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, US DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE SECRETARY: The United States does not believe that NATO membership for Ukraine is a realistic outcome of a
negotiated settlement. Instead, any security guarantee must be backed by capable European and non-European troops.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Natasha Bertrand is in Brussels traveling with the secretary. There is sort of an element of reality about the whole thing, in a sense of no
NATO, more European. Everybody knew that was coming, but to hear it put in such stark, bold terms and so bluntly and quickly is a shock in Europe.
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That is what really took NATO and European allies by surprise, not necessarily Hegseth's calls
for them to step up and do more, to spend more, to build more military equipment and more of it to Ukraine, but just how blunt he was in his
remarks, really leaving absolutely no doubt about where the US stands here.
And so what we are hearing from US Allies, including NATO Allies in the EU, is that, look, they understand that there have always been whispers behind
the scenes that it was going to be difficult, to say the least, for Ukraine to join NATO, given the very staunch opposition by Russia to that and the
fact that they probably would never enter peace negotiations if Ukraine had a future in NATO.
But still, the fact that Hegseth said it out loud, publicly and declared it -- declared that, you know, the US does not see Ukraine ever joining NATO
in the future, that, according to at least some former officials, some people who were at the NATO Summit today could indicate to Vladimir Putin
that, you know, the US and the West don't have all that much leverage anymore. They pretty much gave it away right then and there.
And it also indicates to Putin that he is able to dictate who can and can't join NATO. So that was the main concern that we heard from folks at the
Summit today.
[16:05:07]
QUEST: All right, but where does that leave the US in terms of how it sees its responsibilities and duties vis-a-vis Ukraine? What role -- I mean,
we've got Donald Trump saying he is going to start negotiations without necessarily reference to Zelenskyy being there, but where does it leave the
US?
BERTRAND: It is a great question. And, you know, one European official actually said that exact same thing today. He said look, he said more about
what the US is not going to do than what it actually is going to do and that is very unclear still, because Hegseth did not preview any additional
US aid to Ukraine, he did not indicate that the US is going to provide any more military equipment to the country, and he basically told Europe,
you're essentially on your own here when it comes to providing security guarantees to the Ukrainians, if and when this conflict comes to an end.
So not a lot of, you know, things on the list of what the US is prepared to keep doing. Are they going to keep troops on NATO's eastern flank? Are they
going to continue, you know, funding at the same levels that it has been at? All of that is still pretty unclear. Maybe they got more into detail on
that behind closed doors, but publicly, anyway, Hegseth made a very public showing of this being an attempt by the US to kind of wash its hand of the
Ukraine conflict -- Richard.
QUEST: Natasha, very grateful. Thank you staying up late to talk to us tonight, I appreciate it.
There have been so many strands of the story today. You've got Trump and Putin, you've got Hegseth and Brussels and you've got the US Treasury
Secretary, Scott Bessent meeting with President Zelenskyy in Kyiv.
The secretary is the first senior official to travel to Ukraine. The Treasury Secretary says the US would keep supporting Kyiv, but there is a
price for that support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, US TREASURY SECRETARY: President Trump has a plan to end this war and we would like an economic cooperation agreement, and in
exchange for this agreement, the US will continue to provide material support for the Ukraine -- for the people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: So there is some more insight there that they will continue. But of course, Bessent is there to also say they want $500 billion in rare
minerals.
Nick Paton Walsh is in London.
We have a lot to cover, Nick. Let's just go quickly through, first of all, how much of a shock is firstly, the Trump-Putin call and negotiations
immediately?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It is not a shock in that Trump has said for a while he wants a deal in all of this.
The shock, I think, is that this seems like it is going to be a deal between Trump and Putin telling Ukraine what they have decided.
It was Zelenskyy that got briefed about the call afterwards. So yes, there may be private conversations happening here in which Ukraine's position is
more elucidated, but that it wasn't President Volodymyr Zelenskyy who said when speaking to "The Economist" today in an interview published, he said
that he didn't really know what conversations Trump had been having, only through press reports suggesting really, that Ukraine is for much of the
space here out of the room.
The shock is the familiarity that seems to have come through between Putin, a man wanted by the ICC, ostracized by the Biden administration, a pariah
internationally for years, and Trump and it is so fast and so quick and just coming to the surface in the last 48 hours.
QUEST: If we then add in this element of Europe, you're on your own, or at least mainly on your own. You've got to provide the support. You've got to
increase your spending. You've got -- this is -- I mean, Europe has sort of known this was going to happen, but it doesn't have the structures in place
to replace anything like the US support militarily or financial or where or the will perhaps.
WALSH: Yes. Look, lets deal with the money first. The money Europe can't even match or think about; the gear it can't possibly think about, too. So
if we don't continue to see the United States putting aid into Ukraine's hands, be that through the form of loans, that is one of the ideas Trump's
inner circle has suggested instead of aid, maybe that's what Bessent was there to talk about, then Ukraine is truly going to struggle.
Europe simply can't make up the gap. They will talk about it and they might be able to use frozen Russian funds to assist that. And they say that
Ukraine has got all it needs to get through this year, but that's a serious problem.
Secondly, what Hegseth said today is what we all knew was going to happen. Fine, Ukraine is not going to get back to its 2014 borders. It tried in the
counteroffensive of 2023, it is going to be too much of a mess, forgive me for being so blunt for the next decade after this war, even if there is a
ceasefire to join the most sophisticated military alliance in the world of NATO, and that's a key thing that Russia wants to stop from happening, so
those things were unlikely to happen.
But the bluff, the possibility that they might occur form part of the Biden administration's hand, of Zelenskyy's hand, and in this sort of game of
diplomatic poker, Hegseth has laid down his cards in the opening moment and said these things are simply not going to happen.
[16:10:14]
Now, that may be part of giving Putin the assurances that he wants to hear publicly, but it is certainly going to freak the Ukrainians out.
QUEST: Can I put it bluntly, is Ukraine screwed by what has happened today?
WALSH: It looks like that's the beginning of what is going to happen. Now, we could see things dramatically flip around. We could see Zelenskyy now
brought more into the fold, the Europeans genuinely stepping up and Trump keen to be sure that he doesn't have a legacy in his administration of
essentially a security disaster across Eastern Europe. That's what we could potentially be facing.
What is most concerning about this, though, is this rehabilitation of Russia that's happened in the last 48 hours. The return of Marc Fogel, the
photo opportunity with Trump, the idea that Putin is very cleverly planted, perhaps in the American psyche, that the Russians are good guys again, they
can do a deal with. That's going to help Trump continue these talks.
We don't know how tough Trump's team are being on the Kremlin in these detailed discussions. They may not be that detailed at all. We simply don't
know.
And there is something here in their credit about how the confidential discussions around Fogel's release did occur. There have been back-channel
talks clearly around all of this, that takes application, that takes a seriousness of intent, certainly.
And we are also potentially seeing the elements of a peace deal outlined here that is similar to that which General Keith Kellogg, Trump's Ukraine
envoy and Russia envoy outlined in a private paper back in April, a ceasefire potentially, maybe loans, not aid, no membership for Ukraine in
NATO. Europeans manning a peacekeeping force.
They've all been laid down in black and white before. Maybe that's where were going, but that is not a place where Ukraine really wanted to get to
and there is a big weakness in the Kellogg plan, too, where essentially the Americans had to admit they didn't have enough weapons to keep arming
Ukraine, but they probably should try and do that again anyway.
So yes, we are into very uncharted territory here and just remember, most important of all of this, Richard, Zelenskyy was the guy that European
leaders would spend a day on a train, a rickety train traveling across Ukraine just to get a photo opportunity with --
QUEST: Yes. Good point.
WALSH: --- other people, too, now he is number two on Trump's call sheet after the guy accused of war crimes.
QUEST: Nick Paton Walsh in London. Grateful, sir.
To Carl Bildt, the former prime minister of Sweden, now the co-chair of the European Council of Foreign Relations.
It really is a sea change tonight and the message is, I mean, even disregarding for a second what it means for Ukraine. The message does sound
like the US is withdrawing at least partly, US support through NATO in Europe. Do you see it that way?
CARL BILDT, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF SWEDEN: Well, that's not clear, but it is clearly moving in that direction. I mean, the disturbing thing is, of
course, that we have the two big guys, the two big egos, and Vladimir Putin believe that they can maneuver all of the issues on their own, that they
can decide the future of the one or the other European Nation, it is Ukraine at the moment, but you don't know what is there further down the
line, and that is highly disturbing.
And also the fact, of course, that which I thought was rather remarkable, to put it mildly, that even before the start of talks, the US made very
major concessions. Concessions of the very major issues, the territorial integrity of Ukraine is thrown away, the NATO option is thrown away. These
are key Putin demands that they cave in to even before the start of the talks.
That I mean --
QUEST: Is that a reflection -- but is it -- is that not just a reflection of reality that people like yourself have always sort of secretly known?
And what Donald Trump would say is, okay, it is time to just be real.
BILDT: Yes, I would -- yes, but I mean, the negotiations is negotiations. It might well have been that this would have been an element of what will
be the outcome, but then you would have negotiated to get something from Putin for that.
Now, they have given away even before the start of the talks. The key Russian demands, they conceded the key Russian demands. Does that mean that
Putin is going to say, oh, fine, okay, glory, glory, hallelujah, peace in our time. No, that means that Putin is going to press further demands and
in the belief that Trump is going to continue to cave away and leave Zelenskyy completely on the wayside.
[16:15:01]
QUEST: So from a purely European perspective, and by that, I will obviously include the UK, not just sort of EU -- from a purely European perspective,
what should the European's next move be?
Because should they start passing around the tin hat to try and raise more money, should they be saying this is a reality, we need to spend more
ourselves. We can't -- we have to have our own forces.
BILDT: Well, we are spending more. I mean, the EU nations have been increasing defense spending by roughly a third in the last few years, and
in contrast to what was said previously here, most of the financial support is given by Europeans, not by the Americans.
I mean, the Americans are very heavy and dominated the military flows, but the financial flows are dominated by the Europeans. But I mean, for
European ears, this sounds like "Munich."
It sounds like sort of two big leaders wanting to have peace in our time, a faraway country of which they know little. They are preparing to make a
deal over the heads of that particular country, and a lot of Europeans know how that particular movie ended.
QUEST: And I realize a man of your experience and gravitas doesn't use phrases like that lightly. If you then take what you've seen with Ukraine,
Putin, Trump, and you add in Trump, Gaza, Jordan and Egypt, there is a destabilizing force, the like of which is going to be very hard for other
countries to manage.
BILDT: And I would add Finland to that particular list that you had. Yes, it is unsettling. And we are just -- what are we? Three weeks into the
chaos? So clearly we have to prepare ourselves for the very fact that the rules based global order, which was never that much of an order, but still
there was an element of order, an element of rules that seems to be completely disregarded by Mr. Putin, obviously, but by Mr. Trump as well.
QUEST: Right. Mr. Bildt, always grateful. Thank you, sir. We will talk more, as I am sure you are expecting in the days and weeks ahead. Thank
you, sir.
BILDT: Yes.
QUEST: As QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight continues, Boris Johnson says Elon Musk is on the right track with his effort to slash US government spending.
Extensive conversation with the former British prime minister, it is next. And this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight live at the World Governments
Summit in Dubai.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:20:29]
QUEST: Boris Johnson is applauding Elon Musk's push to cut US government spending, saying he wishes he had done something like that when he was
prime minister in Downing Street.
The former British prime minister also praised Mr. Musk's parenting after the billionaire brought his son to the Oval Office and then let him sit on
his shoulders. I spoke to Boris Johnson at the World Governments Summit before Donald Trump made his latest declarations about Ukraine, but this
was Mr. Johnson's view on the situation in Europe.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BORIS JOHNSON, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The solution to Ukraine is not about geography, it is not about territory. It is not about drawing a
new line on the map and saying, okay, Putin, you keep this, Ukraine -- that won't work. It is about identity and it is about destiny, and the
Ukrainians want to be free.
And --
QUEST: We've learned --
JOHNSON: No -- no solution that ignores that point can work.
QUEST: In both cases of Gaza and in Ukraine, we are at risk of not learning from history that you can't just rewrite borders and move people and expect
it to work 30, 40, 50 years down the road.
JOHNSON: I completely agree with that, and I think that, you know, Gaza is a terrible, terrible problem we've discussed.
QUEST: Right.
JOHNSON: That issue, I think that -- but there is -- there is there is no easy solution there, there really is not , and the Palestinian people do
deserve to have the state that they have been promised for decades and but you know, you've also got to accept that Israel can't be expected to live
side by side with people who are literally, literally avowed to eradicate them from the river to the sea.
QUEST: Does good government and governance mean you really shouldn't be doing the sort of things Elon Musk is doing?
JOHNSON: I think -- I think, honestly, that's sort of all the things that are happening now in the United States, and so I think that's the one I --
we need to have it. We need to have a recognition in European democracies, in the UK that we are spending far too much taxpayers' money without
achieving the objectives that we promised the people that we are going to deliver.
And I think to go through budgets line by line and take out waste is completely right.
QUEST: Did you ever wish to do something similar when you were --
JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
QUEST: So why didn't you do it?
JOHNSON: I did, but we had this thing called COVID, which was a total nightmare and which necessitated, tragically, a huge expansion in state
power, and I think that what we need to do now in the post-COVID environment is move away from that kind of state interference and state
spending.
I actually think that's what people want us to do. They really do.
So I think Elon is on the right track. I really do. I'd like to think where he went in with his -- was it his son?
QUEST: Yes, on his shoulders.
JOHNSON: Yes, that was fine. I think it was good.
QUEST: You didn't think it --
JOHNSON: It was a model of -- a model of parenthood.
QUEST: Does it not look, you have the president at the desk, Elon Musk behind power, behind the throne, the puppet master.
JOHNSON: I don't think so. Well, you'd have to ask -- you'd have to -- I don't think so. I think that look, it is so difficult to get change in
government. Cutting government spending is -- you need to have a lot of attack.
QUEST: Surely, the reasonable way or I've said the word reasonable way is to look at the whole thing and then decide not slash and burn.
JOHNSON: Well, I think that you've got to go, you've got to move fast. And, you know, the new presidency is on the clock now, right? You know, it has
got four years. This is it. And they've got to move fast if they're going to achieve something.
QUEST: So let's talk about you and your future. Do you still want to go into office of some high government office, whether it be with
conservatives or reform --
JOHNSON: Well, so those guys never forget the party that you just mentioned currently.
QUEST: Reform.
JOHNSON: Yes. They were on zero percent when I was running the show. The answer to any political problem, you can't make yourself more attractive to
the electorate as a political party if you try to glomp on, you know, monkey glands from some other political party or to try to -- or to try to
cannibalize the strength of another party, that won't work.
[16:25:15]
And the Conservatives need to recover by looking at what Labour is doing on the economy and pointing it out to the people and showing every day where
they are going wrong, and Labour have completely plowed this thing.
QUEST: Coming full circle, the one thing people seem to love, and if you look at the polls on Donald Trump, is they love the fact that he is doing
what he said he was going to do, and I think if you look at Europe, people are saying in Germany, for example, we want a bit of that.
JOHNSON: They do.
QUEST: We want a leader --
JOHNSON: They do.
QUEST: -- that basically breaks the eggs to make the omelet --
JOHNSON: That's right.
QUEST: -- and does what he says.
JOHNSON: Which is why I think that we need -- we need that experience in the UK, and so the whole Elon thing, which shocks everybody so much, I
think it is great.
QUEST: Don't then worry about the far right's rise in Germany.
JOHNSON: The way to crowd out the far right, the way to defeat the far right is to listen carefully to what people are saying and to answer their
concerns. And so what Elon Musk was saying last night in the Oval Office, I am afraid, rang a bell with me. We do have a problem in democracies, that
people vote for change and then find that they don't get it.
And unless they get the change they vote for, they will vote for more extreme parties.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: That's the former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
It is a lovely, warm evening here in Dubai. The skyline can be seen. This is just part of it.
Now every great city has a great building that symbolizes its grandeur. Here in Dubai, it is the Burj Khalifa, the world's tallest building. It is
visible from just about everywhere here.
Now, in Paris last week, where I was, it is the Elysee Palace, which represents the French state. It was bought in 1753 by Louis XV's mistress,
the Marquise de Pompadour.
It has been home to French aristocrats and heads of state ever since.
Today, French President Emmanuel Macron and his wife, Brigitte called it A La Maison, along with a few furry friends. The president was kind enough to
show me around.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: What happens if the dogs go on this, sir?
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: No, they don't. They don't go normally. Please respect the instructions. And normally, you shouldn't. I know.
QUEST: I can see who is the boss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: You'll hear more of that in just a moment or two.
Now to the White House and Donald Trump.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This morning, I also had with President Zelenskyy a very good call after that and I think we are on
the way to getting peace. I think President Putin wants peace and President Zelenskyy wants peace, and I want peace.
I just want to see people stop getting killed. We are very far away from that particular war, but that's a vicious war, probably a million-and-a-
half soldiers killed in a short period of time. I've never seen anything like it.
I have pictures that are -- you wouldn't believe it. You wouldn't believe what you have to look at. Young, beautiful soldiers that are just being
decimated and it would be nice to end it immediately.
But we had a very good talk with -- people didn't really know what President Putin's thoughts were, but I think I can say with great
confidence he wants to see it end it also. That's good.
And we are going to work toward getting it ended and as fast as possible. It is a horrible situation going over.
It is flat land and the bullet goes off and the only thing it can hit is a body, a human body, a young human body. And they're losing just tremendous
numbers of mostly soldiers.
The cities and towns have been largely demolished. It is a shame what has happened to that country. It would have never happened if I were president,
that I can tell you, it would have never happened.
To look at that, and October 7th would have never happened either by the way, in the Middle East, but we will get it -- I think we will get it. We
will get something done.
We are going to be meeting -- actually, tomorrow, they are meeting in Munich, as you know, and we are going to have some other meetings and I
will be dealing with President Putin largely on the phone, and we ultimately expect to meet.
In fact, we expect that he will come here and I will go there and we are going to meet also probably in Saudi Arabia, the first time we will meet in
Saudi Arabia, see if we can get something done.
But we want to end that war. That war is a disaster. It is a really bloody horrible war.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You said Saudi Arabia. The first meeting you'll have.
TRUMP: I think so. We think we're going to probably meet in Saudi Arabia, the first meeting. It hasn't been. But not too distant future.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Also part of that meeting --
TRUMP: We both understand. You know, we know the crown prince and I think it would be -- it would be a very good place to meet.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So it sounds like that would just be a meeting between you and Putin, and perhaps the crown prince, but not President
Zelenskyy?
TRUMP: Probably we'll have a first meeting and then we'll see what we can do about the second meeting.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To go to Ukraine?
TRUMP: What about Ukraine?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did you commit to go to Ukraine?
TRUMP: No, I haven't. I haven't committed to go to Ukraine. I would think about going. I'd think about it. No problem.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today, Mr. President, that they received your position. What is your plan to end this war? Like today Secretary --
TRUMP: Well, I'm not going to tell you my plan. I can just tell you we've made a lot of progress. This should have been done by Biden, not by me,
because this has been going on for now, a long time, years, and it should have been done by Biden, just like the young gentleman that I brought home
yesterday. After two weeks, we worked on it for two weeks. He was a fine man, and he was in there for three and a half, almost four years, and they
weren't able to do a thing.
And I got him out. And as you know, I didn't pay $6 billion. I didn't pay anything. We did a trade and we did a good job. We got him out in two
weeks. He should have been out years ago. He really should have been out years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) NATO membership for Ukraine?
TRUMP: I don't think its practical to have it personally. I know that our new secretary of defense, who's excellent, Pete, made a statement today
saying that he thinks it's unlikely or impractical. I think probably that's true. I think long before President Putin, they said there's no way they'd
allow that. This has been going on for many, many years. They've been saying that for a long time. That Ukraine cannot go into NATO. And I'm, and
I'm OK with that. I just want the war, whether they are or they're not. But it certainly would seem to be that most people have said that that is
something that's not going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It's freezing out President Zelenskyy of this process? Isn't there a danger of that?
TRUMP: No, I don't think so. As long as he's there. But, you know, at some point you're going to have to have elections, too. You'll have to have an
election.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Because he wants security assurances, Mr. President. What does that look like?
TRUMP: In terms of what?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: If the war were to end, he says he wants guarantees of security.
TRUMP: We'll see what that means. We have -- I think when the war ends one thing he was very strong about, he wants if it ends, he wants it to end.
And that's President Putin said that. He wants it to end. He doesn't want to end it and then go back to fighting six months later.
We talked about the possibility I mentioned it, of a ceasefire so we can stop the killing. And I think we'll probably end up at some point getting a
ceasefire in the not-too-distant future.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So do you expect Ukraine --
TRUMP: Say it, what?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you view Ukraine as an equal member of this peace process?
TRUMP: It's an interesting question. I think they have to make peace. Their people are being killed and I think they have to make peace. I said that
was not a good war to go into, and I think they have to make peace. That's what I think.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why do you deny to provide support to Ukraine?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Would you support Zelenskyy ceding territory or exchanging territory in any agreement to end the war?
TRUMP: Well, he's going to have to do what he has to do. But, you know, his poll numbers aren't particularly great, to put it mildly. He's got a
country where, you know, it's been savaged and attacked, and he's got an army that's been very, very brave, actually, despite the fact that, you
know, we've given them, in my opinion, $350 billion. That's what the real number is. You don't hear that number. And Europe has given, in my opinion,
$100 billion, and they've done it in the form of a loan.
And I have a secretary of Treasury right now who's actually quite brave. He's over in Ukraine on a train. And there's a lot of things happening
around that train that aren't so good. And he's going there to get a document done where we're going to be assured that we're going to, in some
form, get this money back, because we're putting up far more money than Europe, and Europe is in far more danger than we are.
We have an ocean in between. Europe has nothing in between. You know what they have in between? They have Ukraine in between. So wait a minute. So,
as you know, Europe is putting up money and they're getting it in the form of a loan.
[16:35:01]
And the United States under Biden didn't do loans. They just handed money. Every time somebody walked in from Ukraine, they just handed them money
foolishly. And this should have never happened. It should have never started. And once it did, other things should have happened. This thing
shouldn't have taken place.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: So we're getting security on our money. We're going to have it secured by -- they have raw earth and they have oil and gas, and they have
a lot of other things. And we're asking for security on our money.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: They've agreed to it. Ukraine has agreed to it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You are not sending any more aid to Ukraine.
TRUMP: No, we are, but we want it secured and the money is going to be secured.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When would the U.S. stop sending?
TRUMP: Because if we didn't do that, then Putin would say he won. We're the thing that's holding it back. And frankly, we'll go as long as we have to
go, because we're not going to let the other happen. But President Putin wants to have peace now, and that's good. And he didn't want to have peace
with Biden.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: And you tell me why that is. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was that conversation with Putin to start these negotiations part of the deal to bring Fogel home?
TRUMP: No, but it was a nice thing that he allowed Marc Fogel to leave. In fact, Marc is -- wasn't feeling well, but he was all of a sudden, about two
weeks ago, he started being treated very nicely. He said they took him out for haircuts. They took him out. They helped him out a little bit and made
him feel better, made him look better. And they were nice to him. And he said, I saw something happening. And it had to -- it coincided with when I
came into office, so that was nice. And he was -- he's a fine person. He was so happy to be out. He was there. He was there for three and a half
years plus, and he shouldn't have been there at all. He should have -- they should have had him out much faster than that.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Go ahead, please.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sir, just to be clear, do you see any future in which Ukraine returns to its 2014 borders?
TRUMP: Well, I think Pete said today that that's unlikely, right? It's certainly -- would seem to be unlikely. They took a lot of land and they
fought for that land, and they lost a lot of -- they lost a lot of soldiers. But it would just seem to me and I'm not making an opinion on it,
but I've read a lot on it, and a lot of people think that that's unlikely. Some of it will come back. I think some of it will come back. Yes, some of
that land will come back.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Who are you with? Yes. You're who? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I just wanted to ask you (INAUDIBLE) the things that the secretary of Defense was talking about, the 2014 borders and the lack
of NATO membership. Ultimately, these are both demands that Russia has made in the past. Is there not a danger of handing Russia a kind of win on this?
TRUMP: Well, well, I think that if you look at the war, the way the war is going, you'll have to make your own determination. I'm just here to try and
get peace. I don't care so much about anything other than I want to stop having millions of people killed. Killed. Last night, you know, Kyiv got
hit very, very hard. I want to see people stop getting killed. That war is ridiculous. It should have never happened. And it would have never
happened.
Yes. A couple of more questions.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you planning to sign -- are you planning to sign an executive order on reciprocal tariffs, sir?
TRUMP: Yes, I am. In fact, I may do it today. And if I do it today, I could almost do it right now. Would you like me to talk about it now? I don't
want to take anything away from this young lady's day because this is her day, and I may do it later on, or I may do it tomorrow morning. But we'll
be signing reciprocal tariffs.
The world has taken advantage of the United States for many years. They've charged us massive tariffs that we haven't charged them. And as you know I
just did something on steel and aluminum, 25 percent. And that'll go up at some point. But 25 percent, which will level the playing field quite a bit.
I did it previously 50 percent. And Obama was, Obama was very weak and Biden was even weaker on steel.
The steel was just absolutely -- it really started with Obama. The world really took advantage of us. And then that morphed into Biden. And what
they did was, he was so worried about trying to attack his political opponent that he didn't know what he was doing with respect to countries
taking advantage. He should have looked at the countries both friend and foe, taking advantage of us.
So we're going to be doing reciprocal tariffs, which is whatever they charge we charge very simply. But we're going to --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Considering exemptions, talk about widespread fraud and abuse.
TRUMP: Oh, yes. The tremendous fraud. There's tremendous fraud. And it's hard to believe that you can have that kind of fraud.
[16:40:04]
You're talking about like, are you talking about what? Wait, wait, wait. Are you -- which are you talking, you're talking about with regard to all
of the investigations that are going on about the stupidity? What we're going to do is tomorrow I'm having a news conference. I'm going to read to
you some of the names that hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars have been given to. And if you tell me that we should be giving
money to those things, those entities, I think you'll probably have to leave as a reporter because you're not very talented.
When you look at the kind of money, billions and billions of dollars being thrown away illegally and there's no chance. I mean, I say it in front of
our attorney general, there's no chance that there's not kickbacks or something going on. When you give millions and millions of dollars to
somebody that stands to look at something for 15 minutes and walks away with millions of dollars, that money is coming back in some form.
And that's only one form of corruption. The biggest thing is what they do to our country. They're taking massive amounts of money and spending it on
items. I went through a list of 200 expenditures that were made, and I found three that looked like they were reasonable. OK, three. And we'll be
talking about that tomorrow. We have a lot of stuff, and I want to commend Elon because he's done a fantastic -- he doesn't need this.
You know, he's abused by you people every day. He's found more things than anybody could find. I think he's got the credibility to do it. I know he
does. And it's his group of people. You know they started off with 12. I call them 12 geniuses. They started off with 12 and they went to 20 and 25.
And now they're up to almost 100. People are joining to help them because this is a massive fraud that's taking place.
And then you have judges that are activists, and they sit there and they say, oh, as an example, $59 billion going to a little small group in New
York City. You get nothing going to North Carolina to help them. Nothing. They say we don't have any money because they've given it away on the
border. But you have nothing. What they did to North Carolina is a shame. And then they sent $59 million to New York City for a hotel for a little
bit of nothing.
What they've done, a hotel that was not luxury that's getting luxury rates for migrants where they're making a fortune. And we catch them, we catch
them. But a judge says, well, even though it may be a fraud, you have to send the money in anyway. Send the money. I said, wait a minute, we have
money that shouldn't go because we caught it before it was sent out. But they want the money to go anyway.
And I think you're going to have a lot of things to look at, Pam. I really do. What's going on with this whole thing. And this is just one group. We
haven't talked about Department of Education. We haven't talked about the military. We haven't talked about a lot of things that are very big. And
what's happened is, as an example, you'll have cases where you have a three-month contract and maybe the guy that signs a contract leaves. Maybe
he gets rich.
All of a sudden he leaves for that reason. But you have a three-month contract and maybe he leaves. So the contract is sitting there and the
people signing the checks don't know it's three months and it goes on for years. The three months turns out to be three years, five years, 10 years.
It just goes on forever. And the guy on the other side of the contract just keeps getting check after check after check. Because Elon had an expression
yesterday because nobody cares. It's a great expression. Nobody cares. The guy that signed the contract didn't care. Maybe care, may not be. There may
be crooked. Who knows? But you have to care. Otherwise you can't really run a thing like that. Or you can't run a country really. Because there's so
many transactions. Thousands and thousands of transactions.
And if you don't have people that care, you're going to lose control. And that's what's happened. And we've caught it. Now, what we caught is
billions and billions of dollars, but it's a tiny fraction of the real number because you can never catch the real number, because people have
gotten away with tremendous amounts of money. But I said, we have to make our government smaller, more efficient, more effective, and a lot less
expensive.
And we could find $1 trillion. But we're being hindered by courts where they file in certain courts where it's very hard to win, and a judge will
stop us and a judge will say that it doesn't make any difference what you find. You just keep paying the money. That's a hell of a way to be. And I
follow the courts. I have to follow the law. All it means is that we appeal, but that gives people time to cover their tracks, and that's what
they do.
[16:45:04]
So it's a very bad, it's a very bad thing that's taking place. But hopefully if the courts, hopefully the courts will be fair. They don't have
to be very fair. They just have to be a little bit fair because this is so egregious what's taking place. Nobody has ever seen anything like it.
Nobody has seen numbers like this. These are massive numbers. $9 million for somebody to go and stand in a store and see how people shop.
OK. I mean, you take a look at, you take a look at these things. It's a disgrace. And then you have a country that we want to make America great
again and very hard to make America great again when you have things like this. And you're going to see the same thing, Department of Education is
going to be a disaster. The military, I mean, I see it. Look, I bought, I came in, they had a contract done, as you know, for $5.7 billion for
airplanes.
It was Air Force One with Boeing, $5.7. I got it down to $4 billion. A little less than that. One penny less than that. $3 billion, 9.99999 and
$0.99. They said -- I said it has to have a three in front of it because I wouldn't sign the contract for $5.7 billion. I was able to cut $1.7 billion
off the price. And it didn't take me long, $1.7 billion. If people would care, they'd be able to do that with every single contract that's put
before them, and we wouldn't have deficits, would have nothing but a tremendously low taxed, wonderful country.
But they have to care. And speaking of that, you know, Boeing, we're not happy with the service we're getting in terms of those planes. They would
like to get more money. We're not happy about that whole thing. We signed a very strong contract. I signed a guaranteed maximum contract, which they
haven't seen in a long time. And they're saying they're getting hurt by it, but they have to produce the product and we expect them to produce the
product they have.
They have to produce the product. They agreed to build planes at a certain price. They're not used to that. They're used to having time and material
contracts where whatever it costs, time and material, no dates, no anything, and it ends up costing five times more. You look at some of the
ships that have been built. Look at -- take a look at the Gerald Ford, the aircraft carrier, the Ford. It came -- it was supposed to cost $3 billion.
It ends up costing like $18 billion. And they make, of course, all electric catapults, which don't work.
And they have all magnetic elevators to lift up 25 planes at a time, 20 planes at a time. And instead of using hydraulic like on tractors that can
handle anything from hurricanes to lightning to anything, they use magnets. It's a new theory. Magnets are going to lift the planes up and it doesn't
work. And they had billions and billions of dollars of cost overruns. I met the architect. I said, have you designed a ship before?
This is one of the biggest ships in the world. It's like landing at LaGuardia Airport. But you look at the kind of waste, fraud and abuse that
this country is going through and we have to straighten it out. We have great people going into the military in terms of, we need ships, we need a
lot of things. We have great people. We have business people going in. But when you look at what's happened to our purchasing, the purchasing, and
when you look at the USAID, when you look at the things that they're giving to them, the billions, the billions of dollars that they're giving to, and
it doesn't make sense.
It is interesting that when you're looking for fraud, you look at items, hundreds of items, and you'll find one or two, maybe, if you're lucky,
here's something where you look at it and they're all fraudulent. You know, by just looking at the topic, they're all fraudulent, except it's the
opposite. You'll find one or two that's like a legitimate reason. So, I just want to thank Elon for going through it. I want to thank all the
people that are working with him. You know, we have a big group of people.
All -- I think the lowest IQ is about 160. That's very high. I think you have a couple of 182s in there. But they're doing a fantastic job. They
don't -- he doesn't need it and they don't need it. But we're showing things and it's going to be a -- it's a big -- people have no idea how
important it is. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, do you want the Department of Education to be closed?
TRUMP: Oh, I'd like it to be closed immediately. Look, the Department of Education is a big con job. We're ranked -- so they ranked the top 40
countries in the world. We're ranked number 40th, but we're ranked number one in one department. Cost per pupil. So we spend more per pupil than any
other country in the world. But we're ranked number 40.
[16:50:02]
We've been between 38 and 40. The last time I looked it was 38. And then I looked two days ago it came out, the new list. It came out at number 40.
Norway, Denmark, Sweden. I hate to say it, China, as big as it is, it's ranked in the top five. And that's our -- that's a primary competitor.
We're number 40. So if we're ranked number 40, that means something is really wrong, right? And I say send it back to Iowa, to Idaho to Colorado.
Send it back to places that, and there are a lot of Indiana. You have a great new governor. You have a great senator that Jim Banks just got
elected. You got great people. I'll tell you what. Indiana is going to be fantastic. We probably have 35, maybe 37 states that will do as well as
Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden. They'll be just as good.
Then you have then you have the ones that we all know about. It'll be the same story. But you know what? Even they will be good because you look at
New York, you give it to Westchester County, you give it to Long Island, you give it to Nassau County, you give it to Suffolk County. Same thing you
go out to, and you give it to upstate New York. So you'd have four or five sections.
You give it to Manhattan. Manhattan is a little bit tougher for some reason. I don't know why it would be tougher, but it is. You give to
California and you go to various areas outside of Los Angeles, and you might have six or seven different subgroups, but generally, like in if you
go to Iowa, you give it to Iowa, you don't have subgroups, you have Iowa and other places that do a good job.
If they do a good job, they're going to do a great job in education. Those places will be every good, every bit as good as the various countries that
do so well all the time. It's the same countries that are doing well. And so we have a Department of Education where people from Washington, D.C.,
who many in many cases don't care about the kids out in the country. They don't care about the farms and the farmer's daughter and the farmer's sons.
We have a massive bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. We have buildings that are all over the city. Department of Education. I never said Department of
Education on all these buildings. By the way, nobody shows up to work because they're all working at home, you know, quote, "working at home."
They're not working at home. And a lot of them have second jobs. And that's the other thing that Elon Musk is looking at.
How many of these people are getting checks working at home, but they're not working because they have second jobs and even third jobs? You're going
to find a lot of them, and those people are going to be fired because we have to make our government smaller. All right. One more question.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Yes. Jennifer, go ahead. Nice to see you.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thank you, sir. Two questions. One on Ukraine again and then another one on the Kennedy Center. Do you think that by -- as far
as your negotiating tactics go, did Pete Hegseth take away some of your negotiating abilities with Putin by taking Ukraine's sovereign integrity
off the table, by taking --
TRUMP: No, I haven't done that. I'm backing Ukraine. I'm backing Ukraine. Don't say that. I'm approving, but I do want security for our money. You
know, Europe is getting security. You know that, right? They're giving their money in the form of a loan. Nobody knows that. And why are we at
$350 billion and Europe, which doesn't separate with an ocean like we do, we have a little thing called an ocean in between, why is it that Europe is
paying $200 billion less than us to help Ukraine?
Very similar size. If you add up all the European countries, it's a little bit smaller than the U.S. in terms of the economy. Why is it that they're
not paying the kind of numbers that they should be paying? And then on top of it, and I've been saying this to Biden, I told Biden, I said, you ought
to be asking for either a loan or some kind of a security, like their oil and gas or something for the money, because you're putting up much more
money than Europe and you have no security.
Europe is putting up a much smaller amount, and it's in the form of a loan, because we have people that were incompetent in the last administration,
grossly incompetent, and we're changing it, but we change it and all we do is we get hit by lawsuits from the radical left all the time. But here we
are. We stand, and I guess we've done OK.
Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, that was a long briefing from the president. Covered much ground.
Kevin Liptak is with me.
We don't need to spend too much time on the issues of budgets because we did that yesterday. And really, it was just redux from Mr. Trump. On
Ukraine, first of all, I don't know anybody who is saying that the debt -- that too many people have died and have been injured, but I don't know
anybody who's saying it's a million, a million and a half like the president has claimed.
[16:55:10]
But that aside, it does sound like today we've had the dramatic shift in U.S. policy with a partial rapprochement with Russia at Ukraine's expense.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very much. And I think that was very much on display in that press conference there when the
president was asked squarely, does he view Ukraine as an equal partner in these prospective peace talks that he says he's ready to get underway with
Vladimir Putin? He called it an interesting question, but he did not say yes.
And he insisted only that Ukraine has to make peace. He says that this is not a war that should have ever begun, essentially suggesting that, in his
view, Ukraine will have to accept some concessions if this war is to end. What those exactly are, he seemed to be agnostic. He said he wants to stop
millions of people being killed. But certainly when you listen to the president there, of course, yes, he says he talked to Zelenskyy. He says
that the Zelenskyy will be meeting American officials in Munich later this week.
But certainly this is now a conversation between President Trump and President Putin. President Zelenskyy is very much on the side, watching as
this occurs potentially in Saudi Arabia, potentially coming up soon. But it was clear from what he said that this will be happening, whether Zelenskyy
wants it to or not.
QUEST: I'm grateful, Kevin. Kevin Liptak reporting for us there. There's much more to talk about in the hours ahead. For the moment, that's QUEST
MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I promise you, you will see President Macron tomorrow in the Elysee Palace with his dogs.
I'm Richard Quest in Dubai. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable. I'll see you tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Or it was the search that captivated the world's attention. A tragic, tragic one. The Titan sub believed to be missing for
days before it was found in pieces on the bottom of the ocean floor. Now, the Coast Guard is releasing the suspected audio recording of the sub's
implosion as the Coast Guard tries to figure out exactly what went so terribly wrong.
Plus could President Trump's cuts to humanitarian aid programs around the world actually end up hurting America's farmers? The Kansas Farmers Union
is warning yes, possibly. And the group's executive director is here to explain why.
And leading this hour, President Trump moments ago making news on a wide range of issues in the Oval Office, detailing his phone calls with Russian
President Vladimir Putin --
END
