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Quest Means Business

Trump Claims Without Evidence That Jobs Numbers Were Rigged; Israel Considers Expanding Gaza War As Ceasefire Talks Stall; White House Official: Witkoff To Visit Russia Wednesday; Swiss Government Blindsided By Donald Trump's 39 Percent Tariff; Discounted French Homes For Sale Via "Viager" System. Aired 4-4:45p ET

Aired August 04, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:14]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Closing bell ringing there. Those are the markets, and these are the main events.

President Trump defends firing the official in charge of jobs data. International precedent shows messing with economic statistics does not end

well.

Tesla's board grants Elon Musk a $29 billion -- that's right billion -- billion-dollar pay package.

And Paris apartments selling for a bargain. The catch, the buyers have to wait for the sellers to die.

Live from D.C., it is Monday, August 4th. I am Jim Sciutto in today for Richard Quest and this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

Good evening to you.

The White House is doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on its uncorroborated criticism of the BLS after the President fired the agency's

head on Friday.

Donald Trump posted without evidence that Friday's Jobs Report was "rigged." That report, inconveniently showed a weakening labor market in

the U.S. The director of the National Economic Council suggested that the reports could be politically manipulated. The President says he will

appoint a new head in the next few days.

Keep in mind, Trump made no such suggestion when the Job Reports were strong.

Kristen Holmes is at the White House.

Kristen, I wonder if this administration is getting any pushback from the business world, the investment world as Treasury Secretary comes from

there, they rely on hard, reliable job figures to see a President fire someone because the figures didn't line up with his goals or his

description of the state of the economy. Are any of them telling him this should not stand?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jim, not that we are hearing. I mean, right now, everyone I am speaking to at The White House says that it

was absolutely in President Trump's prerogative to fire this commissioner.

Now, we should keep in mind that this is something that President Trump often talked about on the campaign trail. He said that the numbers were

inflated under Biden when he was running for office. And now, of course, he is saying that these weakened numbers are inaccurate, blaming politics,

saying that the system is "rigged." And again, there is no evidence for this.

One thing to keep in mind, we've talked to a number of experts about these revisions, because that's really what it all comes down to. The fact that

The White House points to these revisions, basically indicating that this in some way, shows that the commissioner is not good at her job, that's why

she could be replaced.

Now, these experts we've spoken to say it is very common to have these revisions. We've seen them historically because the Bureau of Labor

Statistics continues to get more and more data in, which actually shifts the information that they have and then causes revisions.

But this is something President Trump did, and we are not hearing that enormous level of pushback that we were hearing from the business community

when there were threats of firing Jerome Powell. Of course, there are still those threats that are out there, but there was a lot of pushback on this

idea that if President Trump were to fire the Fed Chair, that this would cause a huge problem with the market, that the markets would tank, there

would be problems on Wall Street. You're just not seeing that here.

Now, the big question, as you said, President Trump has said he is going to name a new person for this position in coming days. What is that person

going to look like? Is this going to be an economy person, or is this going to be a loyalist? Because there are real risks involved if you talk to any

of these people who have been working in this field for a long time, having a Bureau of Labor Statistics that people don't trust, that people believe

is political.

And we've heard from a number of people who have worked at the BLS for years who say it is really hard, almost impossible to be political in this

role because you are just looking at the numbers here. But of course, who President Trump appoints to this position, who he hires for this position,

that is going to have a big impact on how people, society view the numbers coming out of here, numbers that they've relied on for decades.

SCIUTTO: Another norm goes by the wayside. Kristen Holmes at The White House.

Well, history shows the perils of interfering with economic data. Greece faked its deficit numbers for years, leading to a painful public debt

crisis in the early 2010s. China has been accused of exaggerating its growth numbers for years, Argentina systematically understated its

inflation figures that eventually led to even higher borrowing costs as investors simply lost confidence in the official numbers.

Amy O'Hara used to be in charge of the Center for Administrative Records, Research and Applications at the U.S. Census Bureau. She is now the

Director of Georgetown's Federal Statistical Research Data Center. She joins me now.

Thanks so much for taking the time.

AMY O'HARA, DIRECTOR, GEORGETOWN'S FEDERAL STATISTICAL RESEARCH DATA CENTER: Thank you. Happy to be here.

[16:05:02]

SCIUTTO: So there have been revisions in the last several months, as there have been revisions in the past. Is there any evidence that the BLS

methodology with these numbers was rigged for potential political reasons as the President continues to claim? Is there any statistical evidence of

that?

O'HARA: There is no evidence of that. There are so many systems in place to ensure the integrity of that information, the data inputs, the methods, the

review protocols before data are released. Those are all very locked down and the Commissioner leads that effort so that all of those civil servants

get to do their work without interference. And so it would be virtually impossible to get in there and tip the scale in the favor of the data going

one way or another.

There are revisions in these data, and in lots of other government statistics, sometimes they go up, sometimes they go down. But the systems

are in place to make sure that there is transparency in those methods so that we can trust them.

SCIUTTO: Were hearing economic experts warning of this firing and the broader attack on the BLS sets a dangerous precedent. Janet Yellen, former

Chair of the Federal Reserve, of course, said "This is the kind of thing you would expect only to see in a Banana Republic."

I wonder what this means for confidence in U.S. economic numbers going forward? Because people bet a lot of money on those numbers every day on

the financial markets, but they also make economic and business decisions based on those numbers, in part.

O'HARA: I think the concerns are about what a new commissioner would do. Would they alter those protocols? Would they suppress or delay results that

don't align with what the administration expected? All of those actions could really demolish public trust and reduce the utility of that data for

those data users and the decision makers.

SCIUTTO: So let me ask you this. If you're an investor or a CEO of a company who is trying to make decisions based on numbers, but numbers that

are actually real, and if the next head of the BLS is someone who is willing to tell the President what he wants to hear as opposed to what is

true, are there alternatives? Are there nongovernment alternatives to get reliable indicators as the state of the U.S. economy?

O'HARA: There are lots of different signals out there that provide information about how the economy is going, what the job market is doing,

what the talent pipeline looks like. All of those signals exist, but the value of the federal statistics is that there were transparent methods so

that you knew that what you were getting was going to be a reliable series, so you'd be able to look at that and understand the trend.

In addition to those federal statistics, it is important to grab all of that other information that exists from the business community and to pull

that together to get a more complete picture, but none of those stand alone as a replacement for reliable federal statistics. You just can't have that

reliable trend.

SCIUTTO: I mean, what does it mean for someone like you who worked in this position, or the now former head of the BLS? I mean, for years these have

been apolitical jobs, right? I mean, they might be political appointments at the top, but the nature of the work is such that it seems to me you want

to get the numbers right. I mean, I haven't heard accusations of political manipulation of these numbers before. Does that seep in more broadly where

folks are less likely or a little bit scared of sending negative information up the chain?

O'HARA: I think it has to have a chilling effect on the people that are in these agencies. They're very mission driven. As I said, there are lots of

systems, lots of protocols, and these are people who want to follow the rules to make sure that they have that public trust. So they're putting

information out there that people will use it so that it is reliable.

The challenge with a lot of these indicators is that you're balancing timeliness and accuracy, which is why they come out with revisions. So I

think that the people on the inside are going to continue doing their work as long as they're able to do it without interference.

SCIUTTO: Yes, one would argue that doing the revisions is to get the numbers more right, right, over time?

Amy O'Hara, thanks so much for joining.

O'HARA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, Tesla is giving its CEO, Elon Musk, a pay package worth $29 billion. $29 billion.

$29 million would be pretty high, one would think, but this is a thousand times more than that. Musk will receive 96 million Tesla shares currently

worth more than $300.00 each, but he will only have to pay $23.00 per share. That was the purchase price offered in his 2018 pay package, which,

you may remember, was struck down by a Delaware court as too rich.

[16:10:10]

Musk is still appealing that ruling. Tesla says musk is owed a big payday. He promised back in May to focus full time on his companies. After delving

into politics. Anna Cooban is in London and she joins us now.

So, can you explain the outlines of this pay package? Are there any performance incentives whatsoever, or is it simply you're going to get this

money just to stay.

ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS REPORTER: Well, let's first remind ourselves that Elon Musk is not paid in the way that most people are. He

doesn't get cash in a paycheck at the end of the month.

SCIUTTO: Right.

COOBAN: This is being paid as a lucrative stock option, which he can only cash out years down the line. And you're right, it is not paid to

performance, like his previous 2018 controversial pay package of around $50 billion, which has been, as you said, struck down by a Delaware court. This

is -- the real requirement for Musk is to simply stay in post, or at least at the top of Tesla in an executive position for two years.

Now, this is quite interesting, given certain lack of favorability ratings that Musk has been experiencing in recent months due to his, you know,

behavior in the U.S. government. Many buyers of E.V.s, very liberal people usually are turned off by buying Teslas because of this.

And so to have these favorability ratings tanking, to have Tesla sales tanking, let's remind ourselves that last year was the first year that

Tesla reported an annual drop in sales.

It is quite surprising to see this huge pay package being given to him after this.

SCIUTTO: Yes, listen. And because he was given at a price point from several years ago, it is immediately worth something, right, based on what

the current stock price is. Tesla sales as you refer to there have been really going down significantly, not just in this country but also in

Europe and quite significantly in Europe, and in China, one of its big markets is getting far more competition from Chinese made E.V.s. I believe

we have some of the statistics.

Is the -- that's the contradiction there because to some degree, that is because of Elon Musk's quite public politicking, right, driving some, not

just in this country but also in Europe, driving some consumers away.

COOBAN: Yes. Well, Musk's position -- well, until quite recently at the top of the U.S. government next to Trump really inspired many protests all

around the world outside tesla dealerships. And, you know, it is fair to say probably had an impact on Tesla sales. But you've also touched on some

wider issues there, which are much bigger than musk. And that is the rise of Chinese E.V. makers.

In fact, BYD, the Chinese E.V. giant, is poised to dethrone Tesla as the world's biggest E.V. maker, but quite clearly, the board of Tesla thinks

that Musk is the man for the job. That, as I said, the biggest precondition -- the only precondition that Musk needs to take this pay packet is to stay

at the company. They think he is the man for the job to see off these problems.

SCIUTTO: Yes, despite the fact that sales of its Model Y, Model 3 fell 12 percent compared to a year ago. Sales of the more expensive models, such as

the cybertruck, down 52 percent.

Thanks so much for joining us and helping us understand.

Still to come, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu considers expanding further Israeli military operations in Gaza, he says to defeat

Hamas. We will have the latest from Jerusalem next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: An Israeli official says that the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is pushing to free hostages in Gaza by military force alone,

they say by defeating Hamas on the battlefield. However, that strategy could entail a further expansion of military operations there. Ceasefire

talks appear to be yet again at an impasse, and there has been widespread shock in Israel after Hamas released images of two hostages looking weak

and emaciated.

The Israeli government voted on Monday to dismiss the country's Attorney General, as well. Gali Baharav-Miara often criticized the government's

policies and its wartime decisions. The unanimous move by the Cabinet to dismiss her was immediately blocked by a Supreme Court injunction.

Matthew Chance is in Jerusalem.

So, Matthew, it is not the first time the Prime Minister has gone head-to- head with the Judiciary, other legal authorities that have targeted him in Israel. What happens now that the Supreme Court has issued an injunction

here?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think this will just continue to be one of the issues that divides Israeli society. I

mean, this Attorney General is someone who has been an outspoken and constant critic of the government of Benjamin Netanyahu. The Attorney

General has stood against some of Netanyahu's judicial reforms, some of his wartime decisions as the head of the prosecutors, the prosecution

department in the Israeli government. She is also responsible for the criminal indictments that have been brought against the Israeli Prime

Minister as well.

So she is seen very much by the Netanyahu camp as somebody who is a kind of political enemy. But clearly, in a country as divided as this, she will

also have her supporters as well. Those divisions in Israel, by the way, Jim, you know, cut through in other areas as well, for instance, how to get

the hostages, still 50 of them, 20 of them still believed to be alive inside Gaza, how to get them, how to get them back home, and the emergence

of these recent hostage videos from militant groups inside Hamas, showing two Israelis in frankly, an appalling, emaciated state, has really, you

know, divided the country again about what it should do, as its clear to everybody that time for these hostages in Gaza is running out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(EVYATAR DAVID speaking in foreign language.)

CHANCE (voice over): The fragile figure of Evyatar David, one of the surviving Israeli hostages still being held in Gaza, now 24 years old and

just skin and bone.

"I haven't eaten for days," he says in this latest Hamas propaganda video, crouched in a tunnel, "And barely enough water. Look how thin I've become,"

he says.

CHANCE (on camera) And this here is your brother, right here. This are two photos of him.

ILAY DAVID, EVYATAR DAVID'S BROTHER: Yes.

CHANCE (voice over): Family members have approved use of the images released at the weekend, but his brother Ilay told me he could only bear to

watch a few solitary frames.

ILAY DAVID: That was a young, healthy man before he was abducted, even a bit chubby. And now he looks like a skeleton, a human skeleton buried

alive. That's how it looks and I don't exaggerate.

CHANCE (on camera): Do you think he is being starved because there is a shortage of food in Gaza? Or do you think he is being starved intentionally

by his captors?

ILAY DAVID: I am sure he is intentionally --

CHANCE: In such a --

ILAY DAVID: I am sure he is intentionally, cynically being starved by his captors. We know that his captors have plenty of food. They haven't lost a

pound, and they are doing the same to their own people, to the people of Gaza. They are starving them, although they have food.

[16:20:16]

CHANCE (voice over): On Israeli television, the newly released videos of emaciated hostages held captive since October 7th, 2023 are provoking

outrage amid calls for negotiations with Hamas to quickly restart very quickly.

This is 22-year-old Rom Braslavski, another Israeli hostage shown writhing in pain in his Gaza prison.

(ROM BRASLAVSKI speaking in foreign language.)

CHANCE (voice over): "There's barely anything to eat. I can't sleep, I can't live," he sobs.

His own mother, who approved the release of these latest horrifying images, say her son's weak voice sounds like he has accepted he may never come out

alive.

And now hostage families are calling for renewed international pressure on Hamas, not just Israel, for the agony in Gaza to end.

ILAY DAVID: If they want the people of Gaza to starve, then do it and they are the ones to blame. And we cannot -- we cannot blame only Israel for

that. Hamas is holding all of us hostages right now, all of us, the people of Gaza, as well and they need to be out of the picture.

CHANCE (voice over): "What I am doing now is digging my own grave," says Evyatar David as he scrapes at the dirt in his cramped tunnel.

(EVYATAR DAVID speaking in foreign language.)

CHANCE (voice over): "Every day my body becomes weaker and weaker," he says, "And time is running out."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well, Jim, as that time runs out, that divide in Israel is opening even wider with the hardliners basically saying what should happen is that

the military operation should be intensified in Gaza. The Gaza Strip should be conquered, and the hostages rescued in that way. The hostage families,

though, as you well know, have a very different opinion. They don't want the lives of their loved ones risked any further, and they are pressing

hard for the Israeli government to do a deal with Hamas as soon as possible -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Those images are gut-wrenching. Matthew Chance in Jerusalem, thanks so much.

A White House official said that the U.S. Special Envoy, Steve Witkoff, will visit Russia on Wednesday. The Kremlin says the Russian President,

Vladimir Putin, is open to meeting Witkoff during his visit. President Trump has given Russia, you'll remember until Friday to reach a peace deal

with Ukraine or face additional sanctions. That deadline has moved a number of times.

Trump also says he will raise tariffs on India substantially because India is still buying Russian oil, lots of it. India's Foreign Ministry says the

country is being unfairly targeted. Trump did not specify what the new tariff rate would be.

The kremlin is urging caution over nuclear rhetoric, this after President Trump ordered the repositioning of two nuclear subs in response to

incendiary comments by Russia's former president.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Russian and Chinese warships side by side in a major show of force,

military drills and anti-submarine warfare, just days after President Trump says he repositioned U.S. nuclear subs following threats from Russia's

former president.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And a threat was made and we didn't think it was appropriate. So I have to be very

careful. So I do that on the basis of safety for our people.

PLEITGEN (voice over): With the once cozy relations between President Trump and Russian leader Vladimir Putin recently taking a nosedive, Trump

threatening massive sanctions by the end of this week if there is no ceasefire in Ukraine, Moscow eager to end the nuclear saber rattling.

(DMITRY PESKOV speaking in foreign language.)

PLEITGEN (voice over): "Were extremely cautious with any statements regarding nuclear issues," the Kremlin spokesman says. "As you know, Russia

maintains a responsible position."

But Kremlin controlled T.V., not so much, frequently touting Russia's massive nuclear arsenal like this well-known host last year.

DMITRY KISELEV, RUSSIAN T.V. PRESENTER (through translator): So the main question is, will Russia use it? And there is a clear answer. It will use

it.

The conflict with the West over Ukraine is growing so much that for Russia it is already a matter of life and death, and Putin himself put Russian

nuclear forces on alert just days after launching what he calls the special military operation in Ukraine in 2022, in response to Western criticism.

[16:25:01]

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Top officials of leading NATO countries are indulging in aggressive statements directed at

our country. Therefore, I order the Minister of Defense and Chief of the General Staff to put Russia's Army deterrence forces on high combat alert.

On Moscow streets, folks telling us President Trump's nuclear moves and sanctions threats don't scare them.

(FREDERIK PLEITGEN speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: Trump said he wanted better relationship with Russia, a trade deal, lifting of sanctions, flights between the U.S. and Russia and now he

is sending nuclear submarines because of the escalation between the U.S. and Russia.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: Look, I think he says one thing and does something else and he predicts the future developments based on something completely different.

(FREDERIK PLEITGEN speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: Trump said that if no ceasefire is reached in Ukraine, he will impose stronger sanctions on Russia. Are you worried?

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: No, I am not worried about this. I live in my country and I know it will protect itself and those who it promises to care for.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: Your sanctions are useless! Everything is still fine.

PLEITGEN (voice over): But even as the Kremlin touts its gains on the battlefield in Ukraine, Moscow claims it is keen to engage in diplomacy

with the Trump administration.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Ukraine says it hit a Russian fighter jets and weapons depot in a nighttime drone operation inside Russian-occupied Crimea. Drones have

played an increasing and vital role on the battlefield for both sides, as Nick Paton Walsh reports, that includes the incredible rescue of an injured

Ukrainian soldier pinned down behind battlefield lines.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This Russian assault, brutal, even throwing landmines into the

bunkers, had left all three of his fellow soldiers dead in the trench next to him and Andrei (ph), with his leg wounded, unable to run, thought, like

so many Ukrainian soldiers in tiny, isolated positions, pinned down by Russian drones, that he was done.

(ANDREI speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: I didn't think I would get out of there. Because I couldn't move. My leg was seriously injured. I couldn't walk.

WALSH (voice over): But back at his command bunker, watching on drones, they had an idea. Maybe Andrei had the strength to cycle out, so they

attached an electric bicycle to a drone like this, moving it slowly, perilously in pieces to the front. It was dropped to Andrei's hole, and

then, remarkably, he cycled out.

(ANDREI speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: I thought, do or die. Either I make it or I don't. I was just riding in one direction. Whatever happens, happens. If I make it, good. If

I don't, so be it.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: Come on, "Tankist" speed up. Speed up. As fast as you can, as fast as you can.

WALSH (voice over): The Ukrainians had tried to ensure the skies were free of Russian drones, but that wasn't enough. Andrei hit a landmine. The drone

operators' heart sank. Had it all come to nothing? But then this tiny figure emerged, limping out of the smoke, somehow alive, walking on his

bandaged leg, visible.

(ANDREI speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: It grazed my forehead a bit. The wheel and fork were torn apart.

But I was fine. I just fell on my side. That's all.

WALSH (voice over): Greeted by Ukrainian and helped into another bunker where he had to wait two more days for rescue.

Necessity is the mother of invention in Ukraine, but nothing can beat luck.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: What an incredible escape! Well, the Swiss government says it is ready to present a better offer to the U.S. after President Trump

blindsided it with a 39 percent tariff. We are going to discuss after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:18]

SCIUTTO: The European Union is now delaying retaliatory tariffs it intended to impose on the U.S. Those counter measures included levies on U.S.

agricultural products, whiskey and appliances. They have now been delayed for six months after the E.U. and U.S. reached a deal which places a 15

percent tariff on European goods, not on U.S. goods, negotiators are now working to iron out the important details.

Switzerland now says it is ready to present the U.S. with a more attractive trade offer after President Trump announced that he would impose a steep 39

percent tariff on Swiss imports to the U.S. That rate, which is among the highest in the world, will begin on Thursday. The Swiss government was

blindsided with President Karin Keller-Sutter being accused by local media of mishandling the negotiations. Financial Times reports that she had a

disastrous call with Trump on Thursday. Swiss officials reject those allegations.

Now, Swiss experts are warning of a recession. The country's blue chip stock index has tumbled over the course of the past week.

Simon Evenett is a professor of geopolitics and strategy at IMD Business School. Good to have you on.

SIMON EVENETT, PROFESSOR OF GEOPOLITICS AND STRATEGY, IMD BUSINESS SCHOOL: Hi. Good to be here.

SCIUTTO: So, you stated the most plausible reason for this big tariff hike is that Swiss goods had a surge in a trade surplus with the U.S. in 2024.

When we look at other countries that had trade surpluses or have trade surpluses with the U.S., they ended up signing deals setting tariffs at 15

percent for just their goods. Is that the likely path out of this? What else is Switzerland going to have to do?

EVENETT: Well, the Swiss will also have to offer a much larger investment or spending commitment on U.S. products. I mean, in the last round, they

offered 150 billion. They've offered that, apparently, since April, and that was not enough to satisfy the White House, so that number is going to

have to go up, and then we will see if this reaches a level which President Trump finds acceptable.

SCIUTTO: Do those purchase agreements actually hold water? Because there have been a lot of questions about purchase agreements made by other

countries in their trade deals as to some of it was spending that is already planned, and what are the guarantees?

I remember going back to the first Trump administration, there was a big purchase agreement in the U.S.-China trade deal, and China never followed

through on many of those agricultural purchases.

EVENETT: So, the spending could be either purchases of U.S. goods or investments in U.S., in new U.S. companies, or in building factories in

America. So, it could go either way.

Your skepticism on these purchase deals is, I think, merited, especially given what we learned in the phase one deal in China, even during the last

year of the first Trump administration, the Chinese did not spend as much as they said they would, and the Trump administration did not punish them

for failing to deliver.

[16:35:18]

SCIUTTO: Swiss pharmaceutical companies in particular, depend on the U.S. market. I mean, the question is, are they going to have to absorb these

tariffs? How long can they do so before passing on those costs to consumers?

EVENETT: So, the Swiss pharma companies, I'm told, make about half of their money worldwide in the United States, so it's a serious chunk of cash. They

-- as far as the tariffs are concerned, they can probably pass them on to American buyers, consumers or people who need those medicines.

And so, that is not their biggest concern. Their biggest concern is the president's proposals that the price in the U.S. should be the same as the

price in other countries. That is by far their bigger beef, because that would really rip out the heart of their pricing model.

SCIUTTO: So, how do they -- I mean, do they try to meet the president halfway there? I mean, that would have enormous consequences for the Swiss

pharma industry.

EVENETT: Yes. Well, they've -- they have been trying -- they've been signaling several things. First, they would invest a lot more in the United

States in production. Secondly, that they would -- secondly that they would work with the administration to strip out what they see are the middlemen

who pump up the price in the United States for pharmaceuticals. Again, that characterization may be unfair to those pharmacists and the like, but

that's what they promised to.

And then the other thing, of course, is whether or not they will lower their prices overall, and this is for them. This is by far the bigger

issue. The tariffs ultimately are a sideshow as far as -- as far as the pharma sector is concerned.

SCIUTTO: A big question, and not just for Switzerland, for any of these countries, is, do these leaders, in this case, Swiss leaders, trust any

potential deal they make with President Trump, given that he's proven himself willing to, well, move the goal post a little bit?

EVENETT: While everyone has seen the treatment of Canada and Mexico over the years between the first and second Trump term, this has engendered some

skepticism.

But I think that the view that I could pick up from talking to officials is that they would rather have some stability, even if it is temporary

stability, than permanent chaos, and I think that's what helps bring them to the negotiating table.

But there will be a limit here. The Swiss population, Switzerland has its own domestic politics too, and the Swiss population will ask hard questions

about what concessions its government has made.

SCIUTTO: Simon Evenett, thanks so much for joining.

EVENETT: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So, there's now a way to buy pricey French real estate at a deep discount, but it depends on how long the seller has to live, literally.

CNN's Saskya Vandoorne explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER: On the day that Andre dies, will he be pleased that you'll be able to move in?

VANDOORNE: Buying an apartment in Paris isn't cheap, but there's a quirky, slightly morbid loophole that could land you one at half the price. You're

essentially betting on how long the seller is going to stick around. It's known as viager.

YLLA HERON, BUYER: I have a lot of time in front of me.

VANDOORNE (voice over): Ylla was hoping to finally buy a dream home in Paris. After nearly a year of searching, she found a gorgeous south facing

place for half the price of the others.

HERON: And I think it's really well arranged

ANDRE HELMAN, SELLER: For such a small apartment, it's exceptional.

VANDOORNE (voice over): This place is owned by Andre who has no intention of moving out.

HELMAN: I needed the money, and I needed the place. So, this system allowed me to stay here as long as I wanted and get the money I needed.

VANDOORNE (voice over): To buy Andre's apartment, Ylla gave him a single deposit in the range of 200,000 euros.

HELMAN: Once a year, there is a party here, the neighbor's party. It's very pleasant.

VANDOORNE (voice over): But in a typical viager, a buyer pays an upfront sum and then small monthly payments to the seller who keeps living in the

home until they die. Viager sales make up just one percent of the French property market, but interest surged during COVID. And it's not just locals

rolling the dice. More and more foreign buyers are getting in on the gamble too.

Homa Raevel, an American Iranian, already has four viager for her kids, and she's eyeing her fists.

HOMA RAEVEL, BUYER: I think in the beginning, friends and family were like, Oh, really, you got involved with that? But this is helping the person,

like, this is a comfortable situation for them.

[16:40:01]

VANDOORNE (voice over): But it's quite a bet. The longer the seller lives, the more you end up paying, and that upfront discount starts to shrink.

VANDOORNE: And you're comfortable with it being a gamble?

HELMAN: Oh, quite. After my debts, I really don't worry about myself. The gamble is mainly for the owner.

VANDOORNE (voice over): It's all remarkably transparent. Listings don't just include the seller's age. They often estimate their life expectancy

too.

Most cases are uneventful, but in one instance, a buyer was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in a case involving a madeleine and the death of

an elderly seller.

VANDOORNE: So, does it take a special type of person or a special type of mindset to accept the viager system?

HELMAN: Because of the death issue. I think that's why people are feeling uncomfortable. It's not my case. As I said, I'm very lucky.

(through translator): I'm really happy to have met you like this. I'm delighted.

For me, that is not an issue. It's just the end of large and it's OK.

VANDOORNE: Saskya Vandoorne, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Quite a way to find a home.

Well, stocks posted solid gains after last week's sell off. The Dow rose 585 points. S&P up about 1.5 percent. NASDAQ up nearly two percent.

Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan closed higher. They are helping underwrite an IPO this week for Firefly Aerospace, a space startup backed by Northrop

Grumman. Amazon is one of the few stocks on the Dow that finished in the red. It's reportedly restructuring its podcast studio.

And that is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for today. I'm Jim Sciutto in for Richard.

Coming up next, "CONNECTING AFRICA."

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(CONNECTING AFRICA)

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