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Trump Hosts Zelenskyy, European Leaders At White House; Trump Says He Plans To Phone Putin After Talks; Russia And Ukraine Trade Attacks As Trump Pushes Diplomacy; Potential Land Swaps Key Issues In Negotiations; Donald Trump Hosts Volodymyr Zelenskyy And European Leaders At White House. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired August 18, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street, Taking Stock, which is a new show on Cheddar

Network. That's Peter Tuchman, our good friend who is on the balcony at the New York Stock Exchange, the Einstein of Wall Street.

The market is down, though it is not really that down by very much. Been all over the place over the course of the session. Small gains, small

losses. It is -- oh, yes. Thank you, Madam. Small gain, small losses. But we are in the dog days of summer, as they used to call it , so that is to

be expected.

The markets as they are trading and the events of the day that are really quite remarkable.

An extraordinary meeting in Washington at The White House. President Trump has gathered Europe's most powerful, along with -- along with President

Zelenskyy, to push for peace in Ukraine.

An extraordinary meeting on the horizon. President Trump says it is a matter of when, not if, he, Zelenskyy and Putin will meet, but the

difficult choice that Ukraine will face, land in exchange for security guarantees, in exchange for peace. A Ukrainian lawmaker and how it is all

being received back home.

We are live in New York, a busy Monday. It is August the 18th. I am Richard Quest and with so much happening, you can believe, I mean business.

"We have to give it our best. That's all you can do," and with those words, Donald Trump started a hastily arranged summit at The White House. Present

was the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, flanked by E.C. President Von Der Leyen, British Prime Minister Starmer, French President Macron, and

other European leaders -- a show of force in support of Ukraine after Zelenskyy's meeting in February, which turned into a public feud. This

time, anything but.

Mr. Trump's meeting with his Ukrainian counterpart in the Oval Office was much more cordial. Mr. Trump says he wants to set up the trilateral meeting

with Russian President Putin, and that Russia wants peace, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think you'll see that President Putin really would like to do something else. I think

when we set that up, when we do, I think, it is going to be when not if. I think you're going to see some very -- really positive moves. I know there

is over a thousand prisoners and I know they're going to release them, maybe they're going to release them very soon, like immediately, which I

think is great, but we will -- we are going to set that up today after this -- after this meeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Kevin is with us. Kevin Liptak at The White House.

Well, I mean, look at them when they are all sitting around the table and the meeting is taking place at the moment. They're doing what? Being

briefed on the Putin plan, trying to change Trump's mind. What are they actually doing?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: I think it is a little bit of all of that, and President Trump kind of laid out the agenda as he was

speaking.

One, he says, he is going to talk about this idea of security guarantees. And this is something that he said was a concession that came out of that

Alaska Summit, Vladimir Putin willing to allow some sort of security guarantee to go into place as part of a peace deal, and the President said

that they would be working out who does what in all of that? I think the biggest question is what the U.S. actually does.

You heard him in the Oval Office earlier, not rule out the possibility that American troops could be on the ground trying to maintain an eventual

peace, which is something of a shift for him, which would kind of be an extraordinary thing for someone who ran for office saying that he would get

American troops out of foreign wars, so that's one thing under discussion.

He also said that they would talk about this idea of land concessions and it was interesting, there are some photos of the Oval Office after

reporters had left the room of President Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskyy standing in front of this enormous map of Ukraine, particularly the

contested parts of Eastern Ukraine, showing the line of control and giving the percentage of the parts of those regions that's under Russian

occupation.

So you get a sense from that of just how important this idea of land concessions are going to be as these leaders are sitting down to talk. So I

think those two items will be at the very crux of what they are talking about right now.

QUEST: One never wants to forecast failure, but if Zelenskyy won't go for it, and if the Europeans basically say, look, this is a nonstarter. Donald

Trump already admitted today this was far harder than he had expected it would be. Is it possible or likely he will say, right, you're on your own.

LIPTAK: I think it is very possible, and that's something that actually he and the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, have been saying for the last six

months is that if they don't see progress being made here, they are willing to throw up their hands and walk away from all of this

[16:05:13]

What exactly that looks like? I am not -- I am not sure we know. You know, the President has already said that the U.S. itself will stop shipping

weapons to Ukraine. He has allowed the Europeans to buy the weapons and transfer them to that country. The President so far has stopped short of

putting new sanctions on Moscow, all of the deadlines he put in place kind of melted away.

But I think it is possible, certainly, if the President sees no progress being made here, that he is going to just give up this peace effort. But

what that looks like, I am not sure we really know.

QUEST: I could see you're in the room. Does it -- does today feel historic? Give me that sort of gut feeling of what it felt like and what it feels

like now, knowing that I believe that, you know, they are making this up as they go along. We may even see them all in the Oval Office before day is

out.

LIPTAK: Yes, because the President said that they were going to -- they are on the state floor of The White House now. They would have to go downstairs

through the colonnade. He did say that they were going to be doing that. And yes, it does feel quite historic.

You know, I've covered The White House for a while and I don't remember another time when so many powerful people -- you know, they have had

summits here in the past, but so many powerful leaders came here essentially on a moment's notice.

You know, I think some of these leaders were on vacation, and they essentially scrapped their plans to fly across the Atlantic Ocean, to be

here to listen to President Trump, and I think it gives you a sense of the urgency they feel not just to finish this war, but to make sure that

they're not sidelined in whatever the President is doing here.

And I was trying to survey some diplomats over the weekend, and none of them could remember a moment when there was such a last minute urgency to

try and get people here to The White House. And so, yes, it does feel historic. It is also very crowded, you know, when you have delegations from

five countries, two entities, the E.U. and NATO, along with Zelenskyy himself and the Ukrainians, it is quite a condensed moment as we hear the

different languages here, the different press corps.

So yes, it is quite an important historic moment, but what it actually produces, I am not sure we are going to know for a while.

QUEST: Kevin, grateful for you. You talk about the historic nature, Sir Peter Westmacott knows exactly what we are talking about. He is the former

British Ambassador to the U.S., France and Turkey. Peter is with me now.

So the ability to throw this thing together in a heartbeat, bring them together, have no real fixed agenda. Certainly none of the sherpa work that

you will have done in the past. Risky? No doubt. But what are you making of what we are seeing today?

PETER WESTMACOTT, FORMER BRITISH AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S., FRANCE AND TURKEY: Well, good evening, Richard. Good to be with you again.

The first thing that occurs to me is that this last minute scurrying around of so many European political leaders and almost no notice, is an

indication of two things. The first is quite a lot of alarm when they looked at what seemed to have been agreed, or at least discussed, between

Putin and Trump in Alaska. The more they looked at it, the more they were worried, not least by the faces on the staff of President Trump who were

there with him at the time that maybe some important parts had been sold.

And so when the invitation came to come and join the President with Zelenskyy in Washington, all of those senior leaders felt they simply had

to be there. So I think it was partly a degree of alarm at what might have been going on in Alaska, and the other point is that we have to give

President Trump credit for it, and he looked very much more relaxed, by the way, thought, in The White House than he had done in Alaska at Anchorage,

this is an indication of his convening power and the importance of the role that he can play if he can wrap his mind around all of the different

elements and find a way of bridging what seems to me some pretty unbridgeable gaps at the moment.

Today, it was discussed -- a lot of the discussion was about security guarantees, but there is so much else that isn't sorted out. And it was --

it was a German President who brought people back to the reality that there needed to be a ceasefire before they could be a peace agreement, and that's

something which Putin doesn't want, which President Trump did want, but then said, well, maybe we don't need to have that after all.

But, you know, that's a pretty important point for Zelenskyy, and it is certainly an important point for the European leaders.

QUEST: Whichever way this cuts, all roads will inevitably lead to the question of how much land is, the realpolitik of Russia having taken

certain land and is not going to give it back, and really how much you can prevent more being handed over, however distasteful that might be, and

whether or not the Europeans can stomach it. And if they can't, what are they going to do with Trump saying, right, I am off.

[16:10:04]

WESTMACOTT: Well, apart from all the gracious language from President Trump, I am sure that the Europeans will have been bothered to hear him

talk about possible exchanges of territory.

Now exchanges, swaps, what does that mean? Nobody has heard of any territory being offered by Putin in exchange for bits of Ukraine that he

wants to gobble up.

So are we talking about simply handing over chunks of his country like the poor Finns did in 1944 to the Russians when they lost 10 percent of their

land? Or are we talking about a swap yet to be defined? We don't know, and I think that's going to be a very difficult one.

A de facto acceptance that Crimea has gone for good, I suspect people could swallow with. But handing over great chunks of Donbas, which have not even

been occupied by the Russians, I think is a bridge too far and these sort of issues are going to have to be discussed, if not today, then very soon

when they have the next meeting.

QUEST: You're in Turkey, of course, you were the ambassador. I am just looking at, you know, just as you're talking. Population exchange between

Greece and Turkey, land swaps with Syria with Turkey. Turkey around land swaps in the 1930s. You're familiar with all of this, extremely familiar,

because I know you've written about so much of this.

But can you imagine that now we are standing -- we are sitting here talking about, well, we will cut that bit off and we will -- if the population

wants to stay with Russia, they can or they can move back over. That's what -- that is the reality of a land swap.

WESTMACOTT: That is the reality of a land swap and I think one of the disturbing things for the Europeans and clearly for President Zelenskyy, is

that for President Trump, this is still a kind of real estate negotiation.

He doesn't seem to draw a clear distinction between the fact that one is the victim and the other is the aggressor, and why should there therefore

be any discussion of a swap?

Now, you're talking about realpolitik, Richard, and I am sure there will be a bit of that going on. And as I said, I suspect that the reality that

Crimea has gone is probably going to have to be accepted, but the other parts of the territory that Russia wants are strategically, extremely

important, especially the ones they haven't yet been able to conquer to Ukraine, and I simply don't see how they can hand that over whether or not

it is constitutionally possible or not, as President Zelenskyy says.

So I think one of the reasons why all of those European leaders are there in Washington today is to try to support him in standing up for the

important principles that are at stake here, as well as the issue of security guarantees, if there is an agreement.

QUEST: Quick last question. Do you think the Europeans have the backbone to stay together if they have to basically stump up more cash, stump up more

military, and they basically have to go further with this? Does the E.U. have the backbone for this fight?

WESTMACOTT: I think they can go a bit further. When Trump talks about $350 million that America has given, it is not true. He hasn't given that much

and much of the money that that America has given has gone to American defense industries as you and I both know. So there is quite a lot that the

Europeans are doing already, I think they could do more. They might or might not buy American military equipment, they might make it themselves.

But I think if America throws in the towel, which personally I don't think that -- I think President Trump is in here, is in here for the long run

though, then I do think the Europeans, to answer your question, will be ready to make a stand and to support Ukraine.

QUEST: Sir Peter, grateful. Thank you for joining us tonight.

The President -- U.S. President says it is not when, it is if he will hold that trilateral meeting and he says he will call President Putin after

today's talks, where they will discuss it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I just spoke to President Putin indirectly, and we are going to have a phone call right

after these meetings today and we may or may not have a trilat. If we don't have a trilat, then the fighting continues and if we do, we have a good

chance.

I think if we have a trial, there is a good chance of maybe ending it, but he is expecting my call when we are finished with this meeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Fred is with me. Fred is in Moscow.

So post Alaska, Putin is riding high. And how will he be viewing what we are hearing about the necessity -- the requirement of a ceasefire from the

Europeans.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, I think a ceasefire right now, at least for the Russians, at least for

the time being, is off the table. I think one of the really interesting things about the negotiations that we are seeing is that it really seems as

though, the Trump administration is trying to get all sides to make some sort of compromises.

On the one hand, these negotiations right now, Richard, are going exactly the way that the Russians wanted them to go. The core demand that Vladimir

Putin always had is that there not be an immediate ceasefire, but instead peace negotiations, at the end of which there would be a wider deal.

Now, the Russians at the beginning had said, as far as these security concerns are guaranteed, they didn't want any NATO troops on the ground in

Ukraine. They didn't even want to talk about security guarantees for a long time, but then at the Summit in Alaska, Vladimir Putin said he understood

that Ukrainians need security guarantees. It is unclear to what extent the Russians are going to be okay with foreign forces on the ground.

[16:15:18]

Certainly, the spokeswoman for the Foreign Ministry have said they wouldn't, but right now, it seems there is a give and take there. The big

question is, could this trilateral meeting happen in the near future? So far, the Russians have been noncommittal -- Richard.

QUEST: All right, Fred, you know, just remind me why Vladimir Putin doesn't want a ceasefire bearing in mind he has got the upper hand at the moment

and can keep fighting on. But is that the reason? I mean, surely a ceasefire just allows everybody to negotiate on all of these other issues?

Or is it as nakedly obvious as, you know, we are winning, why should we have a ceasefire?

PLEITGEN: Well, that certainly seems to be part of it. The Russians say that they're moving forward. The Russians have always said that if there is

a ceasefire, they fear that the Ukrainians are then going to be able to fortify their lines of defenses. They are going to be able to regroup and

the Russians feel as long as they are gaining ground, as they say, despite the fact that, of course, it comes with a lot of casualties on their side

as well, that they don't believe that a ceasefire is currently in their interest.

One of the really telling things that we heard after the Alaska Summit is that the former President of Russia, Dmitry Medvedev, he came out and he

said that it was a positive development for the Russians that the Trump administration had backed away from the idea of an immediate ceasefire

because it allows Russia to go down a track of negotiations while also being able to continue what they call their Special Military Operation in

Ukraine, obviously meaning the combat operations that are going on in Ukraine, where the Russians currently believe that they are gaining ground.

So that certainly could very well be one of the reasons for it and why the Russians would drag all of that out.

But at the same time, the Russians seem to have made the concessions to say, look, if there is a peace process, if there is a negotiations process,

that process could go very quickly. The big question now is going to be, of course, Richard, about territories, about what is going to be at the end of

it, how is the deal going to look like? And can one actually be reached -- Richard.

QUEST: Fred in Moscow, grateful you stayed up late for us and everyone else. Thank you very much, sir, joining us from Moscow.

As leaders are meeting in Washington, the real -- never mind the realpolitik. What is the reality? The reality is the ground fighting

continues where Russia and Ukraine have launched fresh attacks over the last few hours, we will have the latest details for you.

This is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:10]

QUEST: The core of this, President Trump says he believes President Zelenskyy can end the war almost immediately, making the claim on Truth

Social. He then went on to say Ukraine would not regain Crimea. No getting back Obama given Crimea and no going into NATO by Ukraine. All caps.

So that was the setting, the atmosphere was certainly more collegial than last time. Mr. Zelenskyy used the word "thank you" four times in the first

10 seconds of his remarks.

And you remember what J.D. Vance accused him of being ungrateful back in February, and President Zelenskyy also wore a suit of his own fashion,

leading to the following exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: President Zelenskyy, you look fabulous in that suit.

TRUMP: I said the same thing.

REPORTER: You look good.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Thank you.

TRUMP: I said the same thing.

REPORTER: Yes. It looks good on you.

TRUMP: That's the one that attacked you last time, so he is now saying --

ZELENSKYY: I remember.

REPORTER: Yes, I apologize to you. Look, you look wonderful. No, my first question for you, President Zelenskyy --

ZELENSKYY: But you are in the same suit.

(LAUGHTER)

Zelenskyy You see, I changed, you are not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Despite the diplomatic efforts, Russia and Ukraine are still trading attacks. Officials in Ukraine say Russian strikes killed at least 10 people

across the eastern part of the country since Sunday. Military authorities say multiple children are among the dead.

Kyiv is claiming responsibility for a strike on an oil pipeline facility in Tambov in Russia. The country says the attack left an oil pumping station

inoperable.

Ben Wedeman is in Kyiv. There are two sides to the story of where you are. The first, of course, is the military, and the second is just the agog that

people must be watching events in Washington, watching their future being traded, if you will, in such a fashion.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly it. There is a feeling that with all the European leaders there with

President Trump there, that essentially, somehow or other, they may simply force Ukraine into a sort of an offer it cannot refuse at this point.

Now, as far as the optics of today go it was a relief for almost everybody we spoke to. There was a real fear, as we were reading out that Truth

Social post by President Trump about how President Zelenskyy can solve the war, end the war if he wants to. There was a real fear that the President

was waking up angry and was going to take out his anger yet again on President Zelenskyy. That didn't happen, in fact, from the very moment

President Zelenskyy's limousine pulled up to The White House door and President Trump came out with a big smile and a hearty handshake, it

appeared that this time around, at least, they were going to get along.

But beyond that people here are still waiting for something more of substance. We know that President Trump is pushing for this trilateral

meeting with President Zelenskyy and Putin, when or if that's going to take place is really not at all clear.

We heard in that rather chaotic press encounter in the Oval Office that President Trump hasn't ruled out the possibility of U.S. troops in some

sort of post peace agreement Western military presence, a reassurance -- a reassurance force as it has been called, in Ukraine. That was a surprise

for many.

But of course, all of this is part of some sort of post agreement arrangement, and the agreement itself is what has so many people here

worried because clearly, and I think President Trump mentioned it today, some sort of ceding of Ukrainian land to Russia is probably on the cards,

and people we've spoken to, whether officials or people in the street, are really adamant that they simply cannot accept that Russia be awarded for

its invasion with Ukrainian territory.

QUEST: So let's just take that aspect because there sort of is a popular view that one reads that Zelenskyy you know, could do a deal, give part of

Crimea or give Crimea whatever, whatever, whatever. But first of all, can he do it legally?

And secondly, you know, if he does it, is he politically dead back home? And he has to take that into account. So it is fine for President Trump to

say, look, this is the best deal you've got. But if he can't sell it to the Ukrainian people, then it makes no difference.

[16:25:10]

WEDEMAN: Yes. Opinion polls show that the majority of Ukrainians do not accept giving up territory to Russia. The Constitution does not allow the

President to unilaterally hand over Ukrainian territory, to anybody. And then politically, it is suicide -- it is suicide for a Ukrainian leader to

hand over territory to an invader. So really, he is in something of a corner.

But as we can see, the world's greatest superpower with its major European allies, if they think that this is the cost that Ukraine has to pay for

peace, they may just force them to do it, but this could set in motion all sorts of political turmoil in this country because, of course, President

Zelenskyy has his political opponents, they will grab on to that and they will not let go until he is gone -- Richard.

QUEST: Sure.

QUEST: Ben Wedeman, it is late at night, you've got many more hours, I fear, but thank you for joining us tonight.

Ben is talking about and everybody else is talking about the security guarantees. This is the part, do the deal and we will guarantee that Russia

can't come back for another bite.

Well, President Trump hasn't ruled out sending troops to help maintain any peace. The Special Envoy, Steve Witkoff told us over the weekend, allies

could enter a collective defense agreement with Kyiv modeled on Article V, and you're familiar with that -- an attack on one is an attack on all.

The President emphasized Europe should take the lead in such a defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: When it comes to security, there is going to be a lot of help. It is going to be good. They are first line of defense because they are there,

Europe, but we are going to help them out also. We will be involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: "We will be involved."

Retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges is the former Commander of U.S. Armed Forces in Europe.

He joins me from Frankfurt.

All right, General, it looks like Article V could smell -- "could smell" like Article V, it is not Article V. Does that make a difference?

LT. GENERAL BEN HODGES (RET), FORMER COMMANDER OF U.S. ARMED FORCES IN EUROPE: Well, I think this is an empty sort of concept that they're talking

about. When I hear NATO-like or NATO-style commitment. I mean, we are talking about an attack on Ukraine by Russia means that U.S., German,

British, whatever nations are a part of this coalition would be obligated to respond as if we had been attacked.

And I have not seen anything from this administration that tells me that they actually would be willing to do something like that, and of course,

the Kremlin knows it as well.

QUEST: Well, then what we are really talking about is, you know, with a transactional President, if they attack, the Europeans will go and do the

fighting and we will agree to sell them the arms.

HODGES: Well, look, the security guarantee for Ukraine, other than obviously membership in NATO will come from them having the capability to

defend themselves to an extent that Russia does not want to attack them anymore. That means we invest -- collectively invest in Ukraine's defense

industry. We provide them with Intelligence. And until they are able to make everything that they need, we provide the capabilities that are

required, especially long range precision strike.

But also, Richard, we have not -- we have not even tried to use all the economic leverage that the President has. We haven't touched the frozen

Russian assets. We really have not done anything to disrupt their oil exports to China, India and Turkey. And so for now, Putin says he sees this

and he feels no pressure to change his behavior.

QUEST: Can we just talk about the idea of land for peace and land swaps? You know, you as a military man and as an academic have studied over the

years how these things never go well. They are agreements that are put together at the end of wars for the purposes of stopping fighting, but

decades later, come back to bite us.

Do you see in the Donbas, in Crimea, in what is being proposed, warning signs for the future?

HODGES: Well, first of all, I have a problem with the whole idea of a land swap. I mean, that's what a New York real estate guy like Donald Trump

would say, but there are actually people, Ukrainian civilian citizens that live in these parts of Ukraine that are being discussed. So, it is more

than just dirt, it is actual people.

Now any agreement with Russia -- I mean, there is a reason all of these European leaders showed up in Washington, not because they were dying to

come to The White House again, but because they know that Putin cannot be trusted, that the Russians never live up to anything.

And so they wanted to make sure that they were there to prevent any kind of agreement or pressure from The White House to cause Ukraine to do something

that can't be enforced.

And the fact that every one of them talked about the need for security guarantees, some talked about ceasefire, this is very difficult to do if

you cannot clearly articulate what it is you want the troops to do to actually enforce the new border or whatever it is.

If I am a commander, I am going to say, okay, what am I supposed to do here? Because the Russians will test it in the first hour. So there has to

be a clear mission, real capability, and also rules of engagement that the Russians will respect.

QUEST: General, I am very grateful. That's exactly what we needed to hear tonight from the military side. And on the security guarantee side, and

you've done it admirably for us. Thank you, sir.

It is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, our business tonight, Ukrainians are watching from afar as E.U. leaders and President Zelenskyy are at The White House.

So Ukrainian member of Parliament Oleksii Goncharenko will be with me after the break.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. Our business tonight, Ukrainians are watching from afar as E.U. leaders and the President Zelenskyy are at the White House.

So, Ukrainian Member of Parliament, Oleksiy Goncharenko, will be with me after the break.

[16:31:37]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:34:39]

QUEST: The Talking is still underway at the White House, and the rumor is that all the European leaders, Zelenskyy, President Trump, they're all

going to be brought together at the Oval Office. We don't know whether that's going to happen or not, but that's the word that we are hearing.

One of the key issues is whether Kyiv will give up land to make peace with Moscow. Mr. Putin insists the Donbas region and Crimea should belong to

Russia. President Zelenskyy says Ukraine's border must not be changed by force.

[16:35:04]

CNN's Clare Sebastian on the key territories at the heart of the dispute.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ending this war will ultimately mean complex and probably painful discussions over territory.

So, here's what's on the table now, Crimea, which Trump said Monday, Ukraine should not expect to get back, has been under de facto Russian

control for over 11 years, Russian troops took the territory in 2014 holding a sham referendum and illegally annexing it.

But still, only a small handful of countries, including Belarus and North Korea actually recognize it as Russia.

Now, also in 2014, fighting broke out up here in the Donbas region, made up of two Ukrainian regions, Donetsk and Luhansk, Russian backed separatists

battling Ukrainian forces for control in this area.

Noe, if we take a closer look at this part, the peace agreements that were signed here Minsk I and II, the last in 2015 essentially gave this shaded

area, this striped area here, a special status.

Now, Russia denied direct military involvement in that conflict. It launched its full-scale war in 2022 on a pretext of protecting Russians and

Russian speakers in this region. That is crucial. It even recognized these two self-styled People's Republics in this area as independent just three

days before invading.

Now, a reminder, of course, according to international law, this is still Ukraine. But that did not stop Russia from illegally annexing in September

22 not only Donetsk and Luhansk, but also Kherson and Zaporizhzhia down here, where they were starting to take territory.

Now, here you can see these regional borders in white there, and this is where it gets complicated, because Russia doesn't actually have full

control here. It's only the red section which they actually occupy, when it comes to the Donbas, which is, of course, part of the core justification

for this war. Russia isn't backing down. Trump telling his European allies that Moscow wants all of these regions, including this part that Ukraine

still occupies. Just highlight that part there for you, just here.

Now, by contrast, down here in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, it is apparently willing to accept just the parts it's occupied militarily.

Now, of course, for Ukraine, a permanent loss of territory is unacceptable, as is withdrawing from key territory that it still controls, but halting

the conflict where it is, accepting perhaps temporary de facto Russian control in the occupied regions, a frozen conflict. Well, that could be a

starting point.

Clare Sebastian, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Oleksiy Goncharenko is a member of the Ukrainian parliament, joining me now from Odessa. Can you accept any land for peace deal? Crimea, those

parts of the Donbas where Russia already has control or is already in charge, we won't worry about the others for the second. Could you accept

even that minimus part as a deal?

OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Hi. It depends. What does it mean? Accept what? Accept actual control of Russia over these

territories. It is the fact, unfortunately and without support of our allies, with this level of support we have today, we can't kick off

Russians from these territories to accept juridically and to recognize it as Russian. Never it will happen. It is absolutely unacceptable for us. So,

that's absolutely different things.

QUEST: All right. But you know, you're a politician and you're a realist, if Donald Trump says the best deal that we can give you is this hand over

Crimea that's already gone and all those other areas, you know, it's this, or you're on your own, or whatever the Europeans want to do. We'll sell you

arms, whatever. But that's about it. Is that something the Ukrainian people will say to your president, we'd rather have that than hand over the land?

GONCHARENKO: I think this scenario you're speaking about is just impossible, because just up just to Ukrainian people what to do with

territories, first of all, and Trump said it many times and others.

And I hope today, video footage of today's meeting was really inspiring. The whole Europe, all the whole west, the biggest countries of the West

were sitting together with the leadership of American president, but with a firm position. And they were speaking about security guarantees for

Ukraine, about cease fire and Trump was not arguing with them.

I think that the situation when let us use salami tactics to Ukraine, let us cut it piece by piece and give it to Russia, it's unacceptable, both for

Europe and the United States of America.

QUEST: Right, but the security guarantees and all those other things that the cease fire and the security guarantees, they are also, if you like, a

priori, to the fact that Ukraine would have to agree to give up the land.

[16:40:13]

And ultimately, you know, isn't that going to be the sticking point for the Ukrainian people? Yes, you'll have security guarantees in the future, but

to get to that position will require unpalatable decisions that can't be taken.

GONCHARENKO: I think that, as I told you, recognizing of the reality that Russia continues to control after freezing of the war part of our

territories is already quite a sad thing, but it's something, I think, which is acceptable.

Speaking about recognition of the territories is Russian. It is impossible, and Russia never demanded it. I want to give you even before, I mean, even

history. I will give you one example, Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, which were occupied and then by Russia and were under occupation

for more than four decades.

Never, ever the West, including United States of America, recognized them to be part of Russia. But it didn't mean the war, right? Soviet Union with

the United States --

QUEST: But isn't that -- but sir, isn't that just -- I don't want to be, you know, sound trite, but it's not just a bit of sophistry when you say

that? I mean, what's the difference between recognizing it and the reality of them having it?

GONCHARENKO: That the difference, again, history gives an answer on this. The difference is when Russian Empire will collapse again, and it will

definitely happen, because it's already -- it already happened twice during last 100 years, after when they will collapse for the third time, that will

mean that Ukraine is absolutely rightfully taking back ours. That's why it is important. It doesn't mean that we will attack Russia, but it means that

sooner or later, we'll regain control over these territories.

QUEST: And I'm grateful, sir. I know busy time, late nights, and plenty more of them. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me tonight. Thank

you.

That's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this evening. I'm Richard Quest in New York. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, you know the rest.

Coming up next, I'm in India, and so are you, because it's a "WORLD OF WONDER."

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