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Quest Means Business
OpenAI Holds Back Release Of New Model Out Of Caution; Trump Hosts Top A.I. Executives At The White House; Trump's Ban On Canadian Booze Takes Effect; U.S. Supreme Court Lets Third-Country Deportations Resume; Lindsay Clancy In Court For The First Time Since Murder Case Mistrial; Inside South Africa's Film Industry; E.U. Considers NATO-Style Response To Russian Hybrid Attacks. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired September 29, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Wall Street closing out the session lower as U.S. bond yields hit their highest level now since 2002. Those are
the markets and these are the main events.
President Trump says the A.I. industry can self-regulate after a White House meeting with leaders from the world's biggest A.I. firms.
A U.S. ban on importing Canadian alcohol is now in effect. I will speak to actor, Dan Aykroyd about what it means for his vodka business.
And the E.U. weighs a collective NATO-style response to Russia's hybrid war after Estonia becomes the latest member to blame Moscow for an attack on
its territory.
Live from Washington. It is Tuesday, September 29th. I am Jim Sciutto, in for Richard Quest and this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.
Tonight, anthropic is preparing for what could be the largest IPO ever. It comes, however, with an alarming warning. In a prospectus leaked to
Reuters, Anthropic warns investors that its A.I. models could pose a catastrophic risk to humanity. CEO Dario Amodei warned earlier this month
that A.I. should be developed more slowly and with a greater focus on safety.
OpenAI is apparently heeding that call. It is scrapping the release of its newest Astra model over safety concerns, which it found during internal
testing. The decision, first reported by "The Wall Street Journal."
OpenAI's chief executive, Sam Altman, told CNBC, the key to A.I. safety is pacing its development.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAM ALTMAN, CEO, OPENAI: We have to do this in a way where we can make very confident safety cases and claims so that people don't have a bunch of
anxiety and can rely on us for the models we are putting out into the world.
We are now in a period where the models are getting so good, so fast that we think it is prudent and wise to make more progress on -- some are
talking about safety, alignment, monitoring so that we can continue with progress. But I think this idea of pacing is really important.
It is not just like, stop it because, you know, we don't want smarter models. Of course, we want better models. It is make sure that we improve
the areas we need to confidently and safely continue with progress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Amid growing A.I. concerns, President Trump met with top A.I. executives at The White House today. Among those in attendance, the CEOs of
Anthropic Meta, Palantir, NVIDIA as well as the president of OpenAI. The summit comes amid a growing number of A.I. agents going rogue. These
incidents have prompted a recent flurry of warnings from industry leaders themselves about A.I.'s potential to advance beyond human control.
President Trump said he is going to give the term artificial intelligence a new name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are going to be signing a document today at about 5:00 renaming artificial intelligence --
because it is not artificial, we all agree on that. And were going to be renaming it super intelligence, officially renaming it and that will come
out at 5:00 today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Joining us now is Hadas Gold in New York. One of the President's key messages, which has been his consistent position, is government doesn't
have to get involved in this despite the dire warnings and all the cases of A.I. agents escaping the sandbox, as it is called. We are going to let the
industry self-regulate.
But at the same time, we've heard leaders in the industry saying they need regulation. So, I mean, did those leaders in The White House today agree
with President Trump's position? Just let the companies do this?
HADAS GOLD, CNN A.I. CORRESPONDENT: Well, they all -- I just actually spoke to one of the CEOs who was in that meeting. This is Exiger's Brandon
Daniels, and he told me that the feeling in the room was very congenial, that everybody was essentially, as he said, singing from the same song
sheet, even though even if they had a different melody referencing of course, Dario Amodei feels very differently about these things than some of
the other people in the room.
But what he did say is he told me that everybody in the room agreed that governance is necessary. He said that we all want to implement superseding
principles of governance to make sure that we maintain the safety of the system. So even if President Trump wants to stay as hands off as possible,
it feels as though he is being ferried into this by all of these CEOs and, you know, it was a very impressive group of people who were in that room
with him and we all know that President Trump loves to be surrounded by people like this and they were all agreeing, according to this CEO that
there needs to be some set of standards in place.
[16:05:03]
And of course, we also heard from Mike Johnson, who just spoke to the press and said there will be a White House Accord on this, a joint commitment on
frontier science responsibilities, a statement of principles, of standards, commitments that are voluntary, but at least they are commitments, and that
they set forth a set of expectations.
Of course, I think the American public really wants to see the action on this and not just the talk. So we will see what these commitments look
like. They are apparently going to be voluntary, but can they at some point be somewhat binding, even if it is just at an industry level, like an
association, like we see in other industries, there are associations that get together. They agree on standards.
And if you want to stay part of the association, get the perks of the association, you have to commit to those standards.
And so at least this is some sort of step forward, and I think politically, it is a very important, you know, view. It is a very important messaging to
the American public from The White House. You know, we are doing something. We are getting all these people together. Of course, we will see what
actual action comes out of this meeting.
SCIUTTO: And renaming A.I. apparently.
GOLD: Sure.
SCIUTTO: Hadas Gold, thanks so much.
I do want to take you back to The White House now, where President Trump is speaking alongside those tech CEOs. Let's listen in.
REPORTER: Mr. President, if you have information that national security is at risk with this technology you will support then the slowdown of the
technology.
TRUMP: I will let the world know about it if I ever heard it, I would come out here. I would hold a news conference and I'd let the world know about
it.
REPORTER: So there is no risk to --
TRUMP: They're going to police themselves, and you want to say something about this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, thank you very much. Thank you. I think the consensus today around that national security issue was being the leader in
America in A.I. is the most important thing for national security.
I think everybody agreed on that today. Winning the A.I. race is winning, and we need to do that. That's the first principle. The second principle
that was discussed all day today was putting the American people first in that race. And I think everybody came together around those two principles
today.
REPORTER: Mr. President, can I ask you about ICE enforcement? Can I ask you about ICE enforcement? -- groups are warning that ICE crackdowns in Kansas
are having problems --
TRUMP: Are we talking about ICE now? How did you get that?
REPORTER: That's right. For beef processing, Mr. President, and they are bringing up prices, Mr. President, any comment on your ICE enforcement
bringing up prices?
TRUMP: ICE has done a phenomenal job in keeping our people safe. They've done a fantastic job in taking murderers, rapists --
SCIUTTO: We have listened to the President there next to A.I. CEOs following a meeting at The White House, as some CEOs call for an A.I.
slowdown or pacing.
A new report finds that it will take a staggering figure to fund the industry's build out. Bain & Company says the A.I. market could require $6
trillion in annual revenue by 2031.
It estimates that consumer A.I. could account for roughly a third of it. That includes subscriptions and adds, the rest could come from a variety of
new advancements, including industrial automation and physical A.I.-like simulations and robotics.
Joining us now is David Crawford, Chairman of Global Technology, Media and Telecommunications at Bain & Company.
Good to have you. Thanks for joining, David.
DAVID CRAWFORD, CHAIRMAN OF GLOBAL TECHNOLOGY, MEDIA AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS, BAIN & COMPANY: Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: So first question for you. The President's strong preference is for industry self-regulation. Before we get into the somewhat, you know,
spotty record of industry self-regulation and other industries, we have at the same time, A.I. executives saying we need government intervention.
So is there -- who is going to win out in this, especially when you have states pushing for regulation?
CRAWFORD: Yes, it is a great question. I think, look, there is a good faith debate here, but there is also stated and unstated incentives under the
hood. The stated incentives are safety, you know, and this is a very powerful technology and as it has developed, it needs to be developed
responsibly with good guardrails and transparency and product management quality and so forth.
And you know, I think the leaders in the A.I. industry have been very thoughtful and vocal about, you know, the potential for misuse of the
technology, as well as unintended behavior.
I think the unstated incentives have more to do with industry structure. And here is where I think folks have sort of landed in different camps,
specifically, you know, at the end of the day because the open weight models have gotten so close to trailing the frontier models, the LLM
industry itself has started to look a little bit like, you know, branded drugs where the generic version of the drug is available four months or six
months after the branded drug comes out, and that's obviously hard on profits and hard on returns.
And so, you know, if there were a world where we could create more segmentation and trailing time between those two, it would be good for
profit, so to speak.
[16:10:06]
And so I think some combination of those two incentives have kind of, you know, combined to create two broad camps in the industry. One is what you'd
maybe call the open innovation model, Go Fast. It is pretty close to what the our President is saying, Go Fast, work with existing business norms,
laws, et cetera to create as much innovation as possible. And you hear that well-articulated by people like Jensen Huang and Alex Karp and others.
And then, there is another, you know, sort of model or camp, that sort of says we need -- this is different. We need more guardrails, we need more
transparency. We need to slow down potentially and potentially, we may need guardrails around the role of open weights models.
And that's stated a little less so far, but I presume that is where things might head.
SCIUTTO: Well, let me ask you this, because here you have Anthropic about to have what is going to be the biggest IPO in history. So buy us, give us
a lot of money; oh, but at the same time, we may pose an existential risk to humanity.
I mean, it is almost darkly comic, right, in that contradiction. Does that make sense to you? To anybody? Please invest in us. We don't have the
guardrails yet, but there is this great danger.
CRAWFORD: As I said, there is real tension, I think, between the desire to do the right thing as a leader and retain your employees and so forth, who
believe and expect you to sort of lead with principle. And of course, the profit motive.
I think there is also a benefit in finding a way to sort of get government oversight of the industry structure in a way that ultimately makes it more
profitable for you. So we will see what measure of those turns out. But it is not just Dario, it is Sam, it is Elon. You know, Gavin is probably in
that camp as well.
SCIUTTO: Okay. So you, Bain has found the A.I. market could acquire $6 trillion in annual revenue by 2031. Anthropic lost $8 billion last year by
spending billions. And this is not -- you know, that math is not unique to anthropic. There is huge cost to build out and the question has become can
the revenue and the profits justify all that spending especially with the phenomenon you're talking about that once you come out with a product, the
product is basically old hat in three to six months.
I mean, are there -- does that start you thinking about a bubble in these stocks?
CRAWFORD: It doesn't yet. Not for me, although I think intelligent and rational people can look at the numbers and come to different conclusions,
I think, you know, for us, we say if you take current course and speed and play it forward, you expect to be spending about $1.5 trillion a year in
capital in the year 2031. And so all we've said is, well, let's think about what math would need to happen for you to be able to afford that and
continue spending at that level.
And what it suggests is loosely that, you know, conservatively, you have to generate about $6 trillion in new revenue.
And so we've done some analytics in the report, which I think are worth reading through that sort of say, okay, where might that come from? We know
we can get some growth from consumer applications. We know there are subscriptions that can deliver a certain amount. We also know that
enterprise productivity is a big opportunity, and accelerating the productivity of the remaining, you know, about 10 percent of enterprises
have really adopted today in a scaled way.
So if you've got the remaining 90 percent to that level of impact, we can tell you roughly what that's worth. And all of that together really only
gets you partway there, maybe about a 35 to 40 percent of the way there.
And so then you're staring at, you know, maybe $4 trillion, you still need to make up, and what we have done there is say, well, let's look at the
most attractive possibilities. And, you know, some of the things you mentioned in the intro really do come up autonomous everything.
You know, I think there is a pretty big field of what is loosely being called physical A.I., which is not really robotics, but rather utilizing
similar models to ingest the laws of physics and be able to simulate physical reality that has massive implications for the ability to
accelerate design and manufacturing of physical products. That's a pretty interesting and attractive space.
Drug discovery is an enormous space, and then there is probably still some gap left over that we just need to -- we don't know yet quite where it is
going to come from.
But we look at that and rather than call bubble, we view it as, oh, that's actually the job creation part of this. You know, the industry has been
sort of disappointingly, very focused on the negative impacts of this extraordinary technology, and presuming we solve those, there is an
extraordinary upside as well.
SCIUTTO: Right.
Yes, all of those categories you're talking about, well, if it works out, they'll need some people.
David Crawford, thanks so much for joining.
CRAWFORD: Great seeing you again. Bye-bye.
SCIUTTO: When we return, how a new U.S. ban on Canadian alcohol is impacting businesses. I will speak with actor and comedian, Dan Aykroyd
about what it means for his Canadian vodka company, Crystal Head.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:17:44]
SCIUTTO: A U.S. ban on importing Canadian alcohol is now in effect as the United States and Canada sink deeper into a trade war. It is part of a $1
billion ban that includes $800 million worth of Canadian booze, as well as motorcycles and dairy products. It is an unprecedented move, one that
underscores the breakdown in one of the world's closest and most peaceful trading relationships.
Matt Egan has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATT EGAN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: This U.S.-Canada trade war, it is escalating and it is broadening out beyond just tariffs. So overnight, the
Trump administration banning imported Canadian beer, wine and spirits. This is a big deal because last year alone, the United States imported $800
million of Canadian alcohol.
Import bans, they have been done by U.S. officials before, but typically for national security reasons against adversaries like Iran or Russia. This
is unprecedented because this ban is being done against a major U.S. ally and trading partner.
So, what does this mean for consumers here in the U.S.? Well, as always, the devil is in the details, but experts say the consumers may not
initially notice that the ban has even taken place. That's for a few reasons, including the fact that it was announced about three weeks ago, so
that gave companies time to rush imports over the border before it took effect.
Also, this ban is really aimed at retail ready packaged alcohol. So think cans, bottles, kegs, bulk imports that are going to be bottled here in the
U.S. Those are still allowed. That is a significant loophole. And whiskey, for example, above four liters. That's not banned either.
Now notably, Crown Royal and some other Canadian brands, they do their bottling here in the U.S., so those companies and those brands, they should
be able to get around this ban.
The beer front is a little bit more mixed. Molson Coors and Labatt, two of the best known Canadian beer brands, they have breweries here in the U.S.,
so that means that those beers, they are not imported and they are not subject to this ban.
However, Moosehead is in a different boat altogether because they have their whole entire bottling and brewing operations in Canada. So this is an
example of a brand that could be hard to find on U.S. store shelves after the supplies that they rushed over the border run out.
[16:20:09]
Now, I've spoken to some employees and executives in the alcohol industry who expressed frustration over being caught in the middle of this trade
war. One liquor store manager in Niagara Falls, New York told me he is confused. He is concerned because they sell a lot of Canadian alcohol, and
they have a lot of Canadian customers. He told me, this is just not good for business.
So bottom line here, the consumer impact, it is mixed. It depends on the brand. It depends on what workarounds exist, but what is clear is that this
trade war is intensifying. And now we wait to see what the next shoe to drop is in this battle and what it is going to take to end it.
Back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: As Matt mentioned there, there are some loopholes in the ban. For instance, whiskey and liqueurs, which are two of Canada's top alcoholic
beverage exports to the U.S. are exempt from the ban when sold in containers larger than four liters. But that's of little help to companies
such as Crystal Head, a vodka producer based in Newfoundland. The brand, founded by actor and comedian, Dan Aykroyd, will take a direct hit from the
ban.
Its skull shaped bottles, you see one there, are too small to qualify for that exemption. And Dan Aykroyd joins me now. I also want to mention he is
a founder and majority owner of Globe Fill, which manages Crystal Head Vodka.
Dan, it is so good to have you on. Thanks so much for taking the time.
DAN AYKROYD, ACTOR AND CRYSTAL HEAD VODKA FOUNDER: Thanks so much for giving me a forum here to speak about this massive issue between our two
countries.
You know, this ban will indeed kill the head, basically, it will kill the head. I will have two choices. One is to just shut down everything, lay off
employees, and abrogate all of the great relationships we've had with our partners and friends in the States all over. And I will, in effect, if I
want to keep going, will run it at a continuing loss and it will resemble some Soviet collectivist failed state enterprise and that's not capitalism,
that's communism.
So the head will die. And I really want to thank American partners and friends who made Crystal Head the top selling premium vodka in the country.
Out there in Miami, the Chaplin family; in Jersey, the Altshuler family, the Jabor family in Texas. Michael Binstein at Binny's in Chicago, Mikey
Dixon at Kenwood Liquors. Roger Wilco in Jersey, and the Allied Beverages there, and Major Beverages in Missouri and our state agencies that we have
great relationships with -- Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania.
One of the most highlight times of my life was driving. I drove everywhere, I met all of these people driving. I was going by and meeting them and
becoming friends with them. The city of Indianapolis with one of the greatest war memorials in the world, the Sailors and Soldiers Monument,
that's a robust market for us and that is all going to be gone.
So consumer, retailer -- you know, the retailer, distributor chain, they are going to lose the margins they make and they made good money with
Crystal Head as a premium product and people love our skulls so get them while they last.
SCIUTTO: You know, I don't have to tell -- I don't have to tell you this because you're Canadian who spend a lot of time here in the U.S. You've
crossed the border. You did a lot of great work here, which I am a big fan of, like your vodka, right? I mean, that describes the U.S.-Canadian
relationship for decades.
Yet here we are, because President Trump has it in for Canada, it seems, how do you respond to that?
AYKROYD: Well, I wish he would come up to Ottawa and see what a beautiful city we have and a beautiful country and you know, we would make sure that
he is welcome in some measure there.
Well, you see, the U.S. and Canada will always have their sovereignty, separately, but the overriding sovereignty, that sort of governs this all
is the cultural sovereignty, what we all share. We watch the same movies, listen to the same music, same television, same media. We eat the same
food. We speak the same language for business.
Canadians love to go and see the American teams play Toronto to Cleveland or to Buffalo and we play on their ICE, they play on ours and fields, you
know? So really, when you look at it from the perspective of the overall cultural sovereignty, which governs both countries borders are meaningless
-- meaningless.
SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, listen, the question is, is this lasting? Right? As long as Trump is in office, it appears that this relationship is in a bad
place. But here you have a company who you're telling us might very well not survive this.
Do you believe that the President, through this trade war, is breaking the relationship, or that this is just a temporary pause?
[16:25:10]
AYKROYD: I think -- I have hope because he made a deal with China, and he said that he wants Canada to come back to the table, perhaps in an
apologetic mode. And, you know, their leaders and politicians are not going to do that. They don't want to be perceived as bending backwards.
But you know what? I think all of the bureaucrats and all of the executives in government that they have over these tables, 30 people across from each
other at a table, get them out of the room and get the two men in place there. Mark Carney, brilliant, Bank of Canada, Bank of England, economist,
smart and Trump, who is, you know, one of the greatest deal makers of our time if you look at the way he has been able to use opportunities for his
own benefit, that can be a great deal for anyone who knows how to pull it off and the power to do it, they should get in the room and they should
talk and oh, excuse me.
Oh, hello, Mr. President. Yes. No, that's not a rumor. If we can work out this tariff thing. I will bring my Canadian vodka down, cases of it for the
opening of your ballroom. And I will throw in the Blues Brothers opening for Jay-Z. So let's work it out. It could be a beautiful night.
SCIUTTO: You know, I've got to tell you, I am sure the President knows your work, I think you should call him up. I am not lying to you.
AYKROYD: Look, let me say something. You know, nobody is going to agree with what every politician does and certainly I am not going to comment --
I am not going to comment on President Trump's administration. But I will say this as a professional comedian, I recognize his skill as a quipster.
You know, like, oh, Mattis, he comes in in that same old brown, rumpled suit. He dresses like a beer salesman and then reacting to our MRAPs being
driven by the Taliban, I will never leave a piece of equipment on foreign soil. Not a plane, not a tank, not a truck, not a bolt. And you know, that
made me laugh.
But tariffs at 50 percent, punitive, not funny, it is too punitive. I have confidence that it is going to be worked out now. Now, we would be happy to
pay, I don't know, ten, 12 or 15 percent, apparently, fair, there need to be a readjustment. But I think that the 50 percent comes out of heat and
passion. Let's set aside the bravado, get rid of the bureaucrats, come up to Ottawa. I will hide you out at my farm, and I will have Carney there,
and we will sit down in my old log cabin and work it out.
Now, Mr. Trump doesn't drink, but I know I am sure Carney will have a Canadian whiskey, a Signal Hill, that's another product of mine that will
be banned as well. This beautiful Canadian whiskey I make out of Toronto.
Now, some of the heads and get them while they last, this is our camouflage head. And we give charity proceeds to military organizations. That's a
beauty. And over here, we got our onyx. That's agave based vodka. Never been done before. That's what they make tequila out of. People love this.
Love this! In Mexican restaurants all over America.
And, here is our wheat vodka in the aurora bottle, sunset wheat from England and our main bottle is the corn. We've got it in a gold finish
here. The corn is from Chatham, Ontario. Vodka is an old Russian word for water. We use the purest water in the world from Newfoundland, Canada, and
we add nothing to it, 70 calories per shot, no sugar, no lemon, no glycerin, completely free, additive free.
And so there is lot of challenging things down in the liquor industry. We have, of course medical warnings that any drop of alcohol will kill you or
hurt you.
But my parents, my mom lived to a hundred. My dad lived to 98, they had to drink every day of their lives. So you have to take that and temper that
with some logic.
Also, another thing that is cutting into our business and that is why this tariff really hammers the tax into our coffin is, cannabis has taken away a
lot of our business and also online telephone gambling.
You've got a kid at home, he is going to go out with his friends and maybe, you know, spend $300.00 in a bar to buy some drinks for friends and
girlfriends or whatever. Well, he sits and ten minutes later he goes, I don't think I will go -- I will sit on the couch and blow $300.00 on
gambling.
So all of those factors are -- we have against us. I am confident, though, that something could be worked out. And also, I am proud to say that my
product is Canadian and I am serious, I'd love to place the Canadian vodka in that ballroom the night that they open. I will personally underwrite the
cases --
SCIUTTO: From one salesman --
AYKROYD: I back my product up.
SCIUTTO: From one salesman to another, make your pitch to him. He might take it. Dan Aykroyd, appreciate having you on. A real pleasure.
AYKROYD: Okay. Thank you very much. We will work this out.
[16:30:00]
SCIUTTO: I hope so. We'll still to come, the U.S. Supreme Court has just issued yet another new ruling on immigration allowing President Trump to
restart the deportation of migrants to countries other than their home. We'll have the details.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Hello, I'm Jim Sciutto. There is more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in a moment when we'll have the latest on the Lindsay Clancy trial as
prosecutors weigh whether to try her again. And former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volker, joins me to discuss Europe's response to Russian hybrid
war. Before that, the headlines this hour.
President Donald Trump just wrapped up a meeting with top A.I. executives at the White House. The president showed no sign he wants a slowdown in the
development of the technology. He says he will sign an executive order to rename artificial intelligence super intelligence.
The special counsel, who twice brought charges against President Trump, faced blistering attacks today from Senate Republicans. Jack Smith insisted
he had plenty of evidence against Trump, and that he and prosecutors have been unfairly targeted by the president and his Department of Justice.
Republican senators blasted Smith as a partisan.
Prosecutors in New York state have reopened a criminal investigation into an alleged gang rape at Cornell University. The decision follows a civil
lawsuit filed by the alleged victim. She accuses seven men of drugging and raping her at a fraternity house two years ago. The original investigation
did not result in criminal charges.
The U.S. Supreme Court is allowing the Trump administration for now to deport migrants to countries other than their own.
[16:35:04]
The administration started the program last year as part of its crackdown. Migrants were sent to countries such as Liberia, Uganda and Equatorial
Guinea. The policy challenged by immigration rights groups. The court says it will hear arguments in the case later this, but the policy continues in
the meantime.
Joan Biskupic is with me now.
Joan, I mean, so the court is going to consider arguments, but allow folks to still be deported to third countries, which is kind of a hard thing to
reverse. Can you explain the reasoning here?
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN CHIEF SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Yes, actually, the court did not explain its reasoning. But I'll tell you what we know. This is the
third time that a challenge to this policy of deporting migrants to third countries, countries where they have no connection, it wasn't their
homeland. Third time it's been challenged and third time that the justices have allowed it to go forward after lower court judges tried to stop it.
This time, though, the justices, as they let it go forward over the descent of the three liberal justices, the liberals appear to have gotten one thing
out of them, and that's at least to have oral arguments at the end of this year on the merits of this policy. So the Supreme Court is going to
expedite consideration.
Now, you're right, Jim, that it's going to be hard to roll it back, but at least, at least the challengers will get a hearing. And what the
challengers say is what we've heard from lower court judges that it's not that the Trump administration would be outright blocked completely from
sending migrants to third countries, places that aren't their homeland, but they have to first give some sort of meaningful notice and a chance to be
heard and have the migrants be able to say, if they have some fear of torture or other human rights reasons why they shouldn't go to those
particular countries where they have no connections.
You know, they could be sent to any of the places you just mentioned, Jim, and then deported to another place where they have already been trying to
flee for some reason. So they're -- it's good that they will actually hear the merits of it just because this is the kind of thing that's only been
handled on an expedited basis of the Trump administration being allowed to do this without the, as I say, the merits of it really being tested at the
Supreme Court. But it is the third time they're allowing it.
The Trump administration had lost in lower courts on this round, and they came to the justices on September 24th and said, please postpone the effect
of this lower court order, because, you know, flights are being canceled. There's chaos at the airports that they're trying to use to deport people.
And the court obviously was sympathetic to that.
I should note, Jim, that some 25,000 migrants have already been sent to countries that are not their homeland under this policy. And we'll see in
December what kind of arguments are brought forth. And we probably won't have a final ruling until later in the spring -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: So that's means that many thousands more will be sent.
BISKUPIC: Exactly.
SCIUTTO: Away in the meantime. I mean, do you have any sense of where the full court will land on this based on --
BISKUPIC: Well --
SCIUTTO: Well, you follow it very closely.
BISKUPIC: Yes. I can tell you that already the challengers are going into it kind of on the downside here, because as I said, three times they've
come up here in the expedited fashion trying to fight the Trump administration policy. And this is the third time that the Supreme Court
conservative majority has allowed the policy to take effect.
Now, as I say, there is something that they've at least gotten -- they'll at least have a hearing here. But right now, as it stands, the odds are
definitely against the challengers. And even if in the end, in June, somehow this becomes a ruling that favors those who -- as I say, they're
only asking for some sort of meaningful way to be heard and to make a claim of some human rights problem here rather than stopping these deportations
completely.
So it's not a huge -- a huge ask here. But even if that does go their way, as you say, tens of thousands more migrants will have already gone to these
third countries -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: As always, the administration is ahead of the courts.
Joan Biskupic, thanks so much.
BISKUPIC: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, Lindsay Clancy was back in a Massachusetts court today for a status hearing. It was her first appearance since early this month when a
judge declared a mistrial in her triple murder case due to a deadlocked jury. Court heard a number of arguments as the state mulls a retrial. The
judge told the parties to be ready to discuss a new trial date at the next hearing in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM SULLIVAN, MASSACHUSETTS SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE: I'm hearing about how important this is to get this resolved, to deal with this for all the
parties.
[16:40:03]
That's what I'm trying to do. All right. And I'm not saying -- I'm not blaming counsel for that, but that's my goal in this thing, is to get this
thing tried as soon as proper without sacrificing anyone's rights, anyone's position. But I don't want this thing to then just start to kind of get
kicked down the road and punted and go forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Brynn Gingras joins us now with more.
So it sounds like the judge is going to retry the case. I mean, are we reading that right?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's unclear. I mean, that's really -- I think we all went into this hearing thinking we were
going to get some sort of signals of, did they talk about possible plea deal? Are they going to set a new trial date, or is she even going to be
retried? And none of those questions were really answered. Actually, a lot of the stuff did get kicked down the hill, essentially to a new court
hearing, which is going to be on November 2nd.
Listen, Jim, when this trial ended in a mistrial, since then, just a few weeks ago, of course, during that time, we have seen a number of motions
being filed, not only by the defense, but also for by the prosecution in regards to that holdout juror, in regards to preserving certain evidence
like jury notes, surveillance video, also requests by the defense to basically throw out this trial on the grounds of double jeopardy.
So there was just a number of motions that really needed to be discussed today. And it's almost like some of those things, according to these
lawyers, some of those things can't be, you know, they can't figure out a trial date until they get those other issues resolved. So that's really how
court was ended today. However, there was arguments by the defense and the commonwealth today about those grounds of retrying Lindsay.
According to the defense, he basically said during that trial, the prosecution really didn't lay out any evidence that would give jurors
other, you know, without reasonable doubt like they -- any jury would have reasonable doubt. That was his argument to the court. Well, the
commonwealth essentially said, listen, that is a laughable argument. So that's something the judge is also going to be deciding on. But again, no
real clarity. Hopefully, when we go back to court on November 2nd, but obviously anything can happen before then, too.
SCIUTTO: Brynn Gingras, thanks so much.
Still to come on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, stay calm and work together. NATO's secretary general weighs in on how Europe should respond to Russia's
expanding hybrid war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:45:00]
SCIUTTO: On the outskirts of Cape Town, South Africa, scenes for some of the world's biggest stories are built piece by piece.
As we continue our "Africa Inc." series, Adefemi Akinsanya goes behind the scenes of the production company building the sets for some of your
favorite shows and films.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ADEFEMI AKINSANYA, CNN HOST, AFRICA INC.: Cape Town film studio stages have hosted everything from the "Tomb Raider" to "Black Sails," "Long Walk to
Freedom," and most recently "One Piece."
(Voice-over): Produced by L.A.-based Tomorrow Studios, its local service partner is Film Afrika, the powerhouse behind global titles like "Black
Sails," "Raised by Wolves," and HBO's "Industry." Founded in the wake of South Africa's first democratic election, they've brought over 50
international productions to this country, contributing an estimated 1.5 billion rand a year in foreign investment and 1,600 jobs for South
Africans.
PEPSI POKANE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF FILM AFRIKA: We've done north of about 125 films and TV series, and the budget ranges are, you know, from $1
million film to $100 million TV series.
AKINSANYA: Who are your biggest clients? And please don't be shy. Name drop as much as you like.
POKANE: Everybody. So we work a lot with the studios. So we've done work with Disney. We've done work with MRC. We've done Lionsgate. We've done
work with Paramount, and then we work with the streamers. We've done a lot of work with Amazon, Netflix.
AKINSANYA: I mean, you talk to us about how you execute everything, whether it's a smaller budget production or millions of dollars.
POKANE: Well, you spend the money you have, so I think the principles are the same, the structure is the same. So cost is incredibly important now,
and there's a massive price sensitivity, and I don't see that going -- I think that's going to get worse as opposed to getting better. I think more
and more the people that finance the industry, Wall Street, and you know stock exchanges and the insurance companies and investors are now -- it's
not good enough to have subscribers.
It's not good enough to have top talent attached. It's not good enough to have a beautiful product. They're looking at like the commercial output and
saying, does this make sense?
AKINSANYA (voice-over): To see how that scale translates on the ground, line producer Marisa Sonemann-Turner took us inside one of Hollywood's most
heavily guarded sets.
MARIA SONEMANN-TURNER, LINE PRODUCER OF FILM AFRIKA: So, basically, this was built on "Black Sails," and it was a it was a beautiful footprint that
we had to expand on for "One Piece." So, season two of "One Piece," there are two episodes. They're called "Little Garden," and "Little Garden" is
this giant playground. And the whole idea is that we come into this jungle with all these strange creatures, these incredible plants. We have a
beautiful beach tank over there.
AKINSANYA (voice-over): Speeding across the studio lot, most sound stages are strictly off limits to protect upcoming storylines. But deep in the
back lot sits a set impossible to hide, the massive signature pirate ship, the Going Merry. In front of the iconic vessel, we continued our
conversation on the industrial scale required to power a global show.
SONEMANN-TURNER: The -- I think the biggest driver is the size of -- I mean obviously the size of the show is impacts on the size of the crew. You
know, we've been in a very fortunate position where a lot of the television series that we are involved in a budget range where we can allow for quite
big crews in order to facilitate what is required. Season one, season two of "One Piece" had almost 1500 crew members on full time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[16:51:32]
SCIUTTO: Estonia is now publicly blaming Russia for setting a fire last month at a defense company which supplies equipment to Ukraine. The head of
Estonia's security service says, quote, "Russia continues to seek opportunities to conduct acts of sabotage and other hostile activities
across Europe." The Kremlin denies responsibility. The E.U. is now weighing a collective NATO-style response to Russia's expanding hybrid war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: You've heard the supreme allied commander yesterday saying, hey, when able, when you're assured these are
Russians or almost sure these are Russians, attributed to the Russians exactly like Estonia did today, I applaud it, and also share whatever
information you have as allies with NATO, with shape, and with the team of the supreme allied commander, so that we have the complete picture. So the
response options are there.
We do what is necessary and allies can help indeed, by attributing, but also by making sure that we have the collective overview of what is
happening. It's exactly as we are doing in the spirit of staying calm, carry on. We are stronger and they know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Kurt Volker is the former U.S. ambassador to NATO, and he joins me now.
Ambassador, good to have you back.
KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Jim, great to see you. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: I wonder what your view is, your review of NATO's response so far to Russia's expanding hybrid war. The fact is these attacks have been going
on for years. They've been accelerating and expanding in recent months. Has the response been strong enough?
VOLKER: Well, that's just the point, Jim. We just heard the secretary general there saying, stay strong, stay calm. But that is not doing
anything. And as long as Russia sees that we are not responding, we are not acting, we are not causing any penalties or costs for Russia, they will
keep escalating these things. So we've seen, we just heard the story about the arson in Estonia. We had an armed drone at Leipzig Airport in Germany.
And what does Germany do? They close a cultural center for Russia.
We've had an allegation of a bomb on a train in France. We've had a missile land in Poland. We've had drones go into an apartment building in Romania.
We've had other drones in other NATO countries. Drones around Copenhagen Airport. Russian ships cutting cables in the Baltic Sea. So this has
escalated and escalated. And as long as we keep saying, oh, not an inch, not an inch, but don't do anything, Russia will keep going.
SCIUTTO: OK, so tell me what doing would look like. Are you shooting down these drones? Are you --
VOLKER: Yes, I would --
SCIUTTO: Sanctioning the president -- President Putin himself? What do you do?
VOLKER: Yes, I think there are several things that we could do. First thing is to actually address this collectively at NATO, say we understand this is
a pattern. We are going to impose costs on Russia. Some of those would be in the form of a heightened readiness on the borders, so that as soon as
anything comes into NATO territory, we can take it out quickly. Some of that could, for instance, be an extended air defense zone beyond NATO
airspace itself, a certain range, say we're not going to allow anything fly into that area. Now, going forward, that might be dangerous.
We could be imposing more targeted sanctions on Russia than we have done to date, including, as you say, President Putin and his assets.
[16:55:05]
But we have to start pushing back on this or else we are going to see this escalate into more and more aggressive action by Russia.
SCIUTTO: Is it a credible response without the U.S. involved? Because we've heard barely a peep from President Trump about these attacks. Will Putin
listen without the U.S. involved?
VOLKER: It depends. It depends. Obviously, you want NATO to be united. You want the United States to be fully a part of that whatever decisions or
actions are taken for that to be backed up also by the United States. So you're right that if the U.S. is silent or not participating, then that
would be a signal of division within NATO that Putin would pick up on.
But even then, I think Europe does have the capabilities to define some responses and act on them initially on their own, as long as it is clear
that this is something that is supported by all NATO.
SCIUTTO: The goal of this, according to European officials I speak with, is to reduce support in Europe for supporting Ukraine. Do you see that as a
successful strategy here? Might it have the opposite effect?
VOLKER: That's -- yes. Well, that's -- there are different elements to this. I think that is one aspect, is that because Europe and the United
States have been supporting Ukraine, taking some threats to NATO itself may cause NATO to question how far should we go? That may be one of the Russian
motivations. Another is simply to create divisions within NATO and expose them.
Here you have Poland or Estonia taking a very strong view, but you have others in NATO who would not want to risk a confrontation with Russia at
all, and that might include the United States, but also Italy, Spain, Portugal, and so on. So exposing those divisions is another aspect.
And then I think a final one is for Putin to distract because things are actually going very badly for Russia in its war against Ukraine. So he
wants to make us think that he's more powerful, that he has more capabilities than he really does.
SCIUTTO: Kurt Volker, thanks for walking us through it all.
VOLKER: My pleasure. Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, as we began the show, U.S. markets declined yet again, despite oils cool down. The Dow ended down 131 points. You see there.
Boeing up almost 2 percent after NASA released a new plan for its Starliner capsule. Apple down 2.6 percent after reports that new CEO John Ternus'
potential plans for overhaul. Walmart down almost 2 percent.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I'm Jim Sciutto. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
