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Quest Means Business

Trump: Russia Agrees to Supply Diesel to U.S. and Global Markets; Hurricane Strengthens as it Nears U.S. Gulf Coast; Former Qantas CEO Reflects on His Career; Trump Launches New Effort To Oust Fed Governor Lisa Cook; Vance Refers To Foreign Workers As "Indentured Servants"; Anthropic To Ban "Cruel And Abusive" Behavior Toward It's A.I. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 09, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:14]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": The closing bell ringing on Wall Street. Northstar Earth & Space are ringing the bell

and the markets have been bullish and quite up sharply across the board.

It started higher, never really looked back and I will go through all the reasons why. A one and a two. Oh Good Lord! There we go. Market trading is

over. Strong gains for the Dow. There is an enormous amount for us to get to. Those are the markets, and these are the main events that we are

talking about.

President Trump has just announced he struck a deal with Russia to supply diesel fuel to global markets.

The Fed Governor, Lisa Cook is facing new White House investigations into allegations of mortgage fraud, and three years after he stepped down as CEO

of Qantas, Alan Joyce tonight, his book, his new book about his complicated legacy at the Australian flag carrier.

It is Friday. We are live from London on October the 9th. I am Richard Quest. A busy hour ahead, and I promise you, I mean business.

Good evening, in the last hour, news from Washington that President Trump says he and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, have agreed to supply

Russian diesel fuel to global markets. It is on social media. The U.S. President said he had a highly successful discussion with President Putin.

Russia had agreed to supply both U.S. and global markets with three million tons of diesel in the coming months.

Mr. Trump said prices should come down quickly as a result. Sanctions have been applied to Russia since its invasion of Ukraine. In order to move the

diesel, the U.S. Treasury announced it is going to have to ease sanctions through early April of next year.

This is an extraordinary development. I mean, the President talks about it as a big and important announcement, somewhat of an understatement.

Kevin Liptak is at The White House.

Is this really about just bringing down prices, or at least appearing to as quickly as you can? And this -- I mean, the market will take this very

well.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, I mean, I think it is about the appearance of trying to bring down prices, of trying to do

everything that he possibly can to make things cheaper in the United States. Diesel is so important because it moves so many goods across the

country, that's why the President seems so squarely focused on doing it.

The figures that he is citing here, you know, 300 tons of diesel in the course of October, 500 tons of diesel in November, you know, translated to

barrels, it is not a huge amount, 500 tons of diesel is about a days' worth of demand in the United States, and so that's over the course of an entire

month. So, it is not clear that this is going to have the effect of immediately bringing down prices.

But clearly, the President wants to be seen trying to bring down prices. You heard him talk about it in the East Room earlier today, trying to show

Americans that he has these cost of living concerns that he has kind of shrugged off for the entirety of the last year, now, at the front of his

mind, three weeks before the midterm elections.

I think the reason this is so shocking is because the U.S. strategy, when it came to the war in Ukraine, was to try and squeeze Russia as much, as

much as it could to try and convince it to end the war there.

The President seems to be completely reversing himself on that.

QUEST: I mean, on that sanctions point, time and again, the President has said sanctions, sanctions, sanctions, sanctions. And I mean, the Europeans

will look at this, I expect, with something approaching aghast, because once you start playing Jenga with the sanctions regime, the whole thing

risks falling apart.

LIPTAK: Yes. And I think the reason it is so surprising to a lot of people, because it was only a couple of weeks ago that the President signed into

law this new bill. They named it for Lindsey Graham. It was intended to allow him to impose massive new sanctions on Russia. That seemed to have

been the direction he was going, and that's why I think among the Ukrainians and the Europeans, this is seen as a huge affront.

And I just want to read for you something quickly that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian president, put out in the last few minutes, he is, I think,

aghast. He says that, "Gifts to Putin will not bring peace or any benefit to the civilized world."

[16:05:10]

He says, "Russia will repay the diesel with further terror and perfidy."

So I think he is suggesting that this will only reward Russia for continuing the war and prolonging a conflict that it has not really been

able to win on the battlefield.

And so the Ukrainians incised, and I think President Trump clearly moving in a new direction because of the concerns about the costs.

QUEST: Kevin is at The White House. Grateful, Kevin. Thank you.

We will leave other colleagues to talk about the geopolitical significance of it. We will talk about the economic and energy significance.

Jaime Brito is the Executive Director of Refining and Oil Products at Dow Jones Energy.

Jaime is with me from Houston.

Good evening to you, and thank you, sir.

Look, this is -- I mean, at one level it is a lot. It sounds a lot. It is not maybe a huge amount, but it is a psychological effect, isn't it? It

basically means the market now knows there is another supply line coming to it. And if that tap is being turned on once, it can be turned on again.

JAIME BRITO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, REFINING AND OIL PRODUCTS, DOW JONES ENERGY: That is correct. Richard. Thanks for having me, by the way.

Yes, this is basically the typical supply and demand picture. We lost 800,000 barrels per day of Russian exports. That's the diesel that Russia

used to export. The Western European countries were not buying Russian energy, evidently, since a few years back.

But that volume that we lost from Russia was important for the entire Atlantic basin balance. Brazil was buying from Africa, Latin America. Now

that they promised, this volume back, it is around 150,000 barrels per day spread in three months.

So it is not going to counter the loss of 800,000 barrels per day. It is not going to reduce the underlying price of the current diesel shock, but

directionally, as you mentioned, it should help alleviate at least partially, partially, the prices, nevertheless.

QUEST: Okay. So if it is not enough to bring down the price, technically, i.e. classic supply and demand, does it bring down the price because of a

psychological benefit that it seems the sanctions regime on oil and gas and energy is weakening?

BRITO: Directionally, yes, to what extent it is going to be a price correction down of 20 percent or just one percent is to be seen. I think

traders understand that the challenges because of the Middle Eastern problem and also because of the Russia-Ukraine situation, are compounding.

You have a challenging crude balance. You know, how much crude is now leaving out of Hormuz, not. You have a challenging marine transit

situation, very expensive freights right now, and you have a compounding fuel situation that is at the end of the supply chain that is growing and

growing as a snowball, as the seven months come to fruition and you have a tightness in diesel market, which is what we see right now.

QUEST: Jaime, you know, we have this phrase, as you're well aware, we squeeze the asset and that's exactly what we are going to do with you, sir.

Stay exactly where you are. You have more duty to do to give us an interpretation, because -- stay where you are.

Another major event moving the markets today is the major hurricane that is barreling down on the Gulf Coast of the United States. Hurricane Isaias is

set to come ashore near Pensacola in Florida. Right now, it has maximum winds of about 120 miles an hour, about just under 200 K per hour. It makes

it a category three, and it is expected to remain as such when it makes landfall.

So what is affected? Florida, Alabama, Georgia all have declared states of emergencies, and mandatory evacuation orders have been issued for several

coastal communities.

The Gulf region is the major hub for oil production for the U.S.

Isabel Rosales is with me from Gulf Shores, Alabama. Isabel, now, we know this is sort of moving slightly further east than west, where the oil

facilities are, but where you are, you're still getting clobbered and walloped by the hurricane.

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes, Richard. In fact, let's go point down to the sawgrass. Look at this. These wind gusts,

tropical storm wind gusts that are coming are just so punishing and combine that with the rain flying sideways and hitting you in the face, it is clear

why folks are taking this seriously and why this is a ghost town, essentially right here in Gulf Shores.

This is a coastal community here in Alabama, right on the Gulf. You can see the Gulf right here. You can see that boardwalk over there and folks are

taking this seriously. That's the good news.

[16:10:10]

The hotel, by the way, where we are staying at right here, you can see they ve been prepping for this for two days now. Things that could be flying

projectiles, over 400 of chase lounge seats. They ve got the strap down, umbrellas strapped down.

You see that end right there to the umbrella? Imagine that flying around in the wind. Crazy! But Richard, I can tell you that conditions are

deteriorating here by the hour.

At this time, yesterday, there were actually visitors on the sand enjoying what they could of the beach here before Hurricane Isaias started to make

its presence be known.

The mayor of Gulf Shores, I was speaking with him yesterday. He said, I hope people take this seriously and it is clear that they are.

QUEST: How much worse is it going to get, do you think?

ROSALES: In the hours, according to our meteorologist here at CNN, it is in the hours before landfall that we seek the peak impact. So we are talking

about right now, landfall is expected late into the hours tonight into tomorrow morning.

But still, the impacts of this from, storm surge here in Gulf Shores, we are talking about six feet of storm surge and then six inches of rainfall

or more. That is going to have an impact, Richard. That's what -- we are going to see all of this once the sun gets up tomorrow, how deeply impacted

this community is, and certainly, to your point, further on east into Florida, Pensacola Destin -- those areas.

QUEST: Sure. Good. Go and get yourself dry and warm, and thank you for that. The storm is already affecting U.S. oil production because this is

where all the oil rigs are.

Operators have evacuated the offshore platforms and rigs as it approaches. They ve activated the shut-in procedure. Now, that means you close the

safety valves below the ocean floor. That will prevent the release of oil and gas.

Seventy-two percent of the region's daily oil output had been shut in. It will take time to start it if the storm causes any damages. And of course,

this doesn t even allow for -- that's the production. But let's also think about the refining capacity. If you have to shut those refineries down,

then you're talking about some --

Jaime Brito, factor in for me, please, what this is doing short term to the energy markets.

BRITO: You nailed it in the description, Richard, just on precaution, on safety of the staff that is offshore, they shut down production. Right now

you have at least 1.5 million barrels per day of crude production shut down and it will be shut down as long as these precautionary measures stay in

place. Maybe one day, maybe three days, maybe four days.

So you're losing that much crude production. And as you were saying, the Gulf Coast is the largest concentration of refining capacity in the world.

If it was a country, it would have more refining capacity than most countries in the world, with the exception of China.

Now most of the capacity is towards the Houston, Corpus Christi, Texas side. But here in Alabama, Mississippi, we have at least eight refineries,

three of them that are right on the path of Isaias and these refineries are $800,000.00 per day, and another six refineries that could be affected

because of flooding.

So the total capacity that could be impacted is two million barrels per day, which equals 700,000 barrels per day of diesel that is not going to be

produced.

QUEST: Now, everything is okay in a sense. You can afford to have that loss of production for a day or two if this thing goes by. I suppose, the worry,

of course, is if there is damage. Now, on the current track that we are looking at at the moment, it doesn t look like there is going to hit sort

of sufficiently to cause that much, we don t know. But it is just my amateur guess.

But if refineries get hit on land, if those shore based resources, what happens then?

BRITO: Well, if you have, you know, an indirect impact of these refineries that are on the path and these 800,000 barrels per day get shut down for

three days, five days, seven days, depending upon there's flooding, it impacts the power generation, the catalyst, it could be even weeks, but we

are not there yet.

You know, let's assume that it will be just a three-day situation. Then we have just minimal problem in the supply chain. But if it happens to flow

these refineries for weeks, then we have a big problem with diesel prices and the rest of the fuel prices as well in the U.S.

[16:15:10]

QUEST: I am grateful to you, sir. Thank you. Well, you know, we will talk more. And, hopefully we don t have to talk to you next week when we are

counting the cost of it all, but I am grateful.

Have a good weekend, sir.

Now, in a moment, when we return, my conversation with the former Qantas chief executive, Alan Joyce, no stranger to controversy, Alan Joyce, at one

point he grounded the entire Qantas fleet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN JOYCE, FORMER QANTAS CEO: Once we made the decision to lock out, we knew we had to ground the airline for safety reasons because of those

safety reasons around it, as the accountable person for the airline.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Legacies are usually top of mind for many leaders, and they are often complicated issues marked, of course, with wins and losses. The hope

is in the balance scale. It is more of the former than the latter.

Alan Joyce, the former CEO of Qantas, is no different. His new book is called "Riding the Jet Stream," and it chronicles his time at Qantas and

his other airlines.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOYCE: Hello everybody.

QUEST: I don t think many people would disagree that Alan Joyce's 15 years as the CEO at the top of Qantas were at times controversial.

For instance, perhaps the biggest decision in 2011 when he decided to ground the entire Qantas fleet over a union dispute.

JOYCE: I am actually taking the bold decision, an unbelievable decision. It is a very hard decision to ground this airline. Nobody wants to see that.

But I literally fully believe that it is for the survival of this company that we have to take this action, and we have no other alternative.

So we had under the Australian law, only one act that we could have taken, which was the lockout of the employees taking the strike. And then once we

made the decision to lock out, we knew we had to ground the airline for safety reasons because of those safety reasons around it.

As the accountable person for the airline, I personally and solely had to make the call. So, of course I would do it again. I would have hoped that

we could have negotiated an outcome, but I would have done it again if the same circumstances had occurred.

QUEST: Alan Joyce was also no stranger to crises, and perhaps there was no worse than in 2010, when QF 32, an A380 took off from Singapore shortly

after takeoff, an engine exploded. It was nearly catastrophic.

[16:20:16]

JOYCE: We are not going to take any risks with passenger safety and as a precaution, we are suspending the flights of the 380 aircraft until we are

comfortable that we understand the reasons for this, and we are comfortable that we can operate the aircraft again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Look, I've interviewed a million CEOs -- airlines CEOs and it is the unspoken terror, fear and horror that you're going to lose an aircraft.

QF 32 is arguably the closest that one would ever want to come to that. But I want to focus not so much on what happened, but also about how you, Alan,

handled it.

JOYCE: It is tough for any airline CEO, and you ve talked to a lot of them and where it has happened, but particularly for Qantas, I think it would

have been horrendously bad because Qantas has that safety reputation that's famous in "Rain Man," when Dustin Hoffman says to Tom Cruise he won't fly

any other airline except Qantas because he has got the best safety record in the world.

So losing a jet aircraft, particularly if you're the CEO and your watch is for any airline, is bad, but for Qantas would have been particularly bad.

We were able to find that the engine was the problem and then we grounded. I think we were the only airline at the time that grounded the entire A380

fleet, because we didn t believe it was safe and there was a very my editor, when she was reading the book and editing the book, said she was

walking around her table with the stress of that boardroom meeting.

I would take you into the boardroom. The crisis executive meeting, and then having to make the rapid decision of grounding all of the A380s within a

few minutes because three of them were due to take off. And how we made that decision, and then we discovered with those checks, the engine had a

flaw. And it was in Rolls-Royce's production and design of the engine and other engines in our fleet was found to have the same flaw.

So we were lucky that we grounded them and that we didn t take any risks and assured you that safety was still our top priority. It cost us a few

hundred million. The aircraft cost over $120 million to repair. And then we sued Rolls-Royce. It was controversial at the time, but we won the case out

of court, and we ended up getting a settlement that covered a lot of that cost for us, which was quite significant.

QUEST: Alan Joyce was born and brought up in Ireland, and his decision to move to Australia was motivated by personal factors. Alan is gay and he

knew back then he would have a better life in Melbourne, Australia.

JOYCE: So then I left. I left Ireland to come down the home of Mardi Gras. I could see people having great open lifestyles in Australia. I came for

that. I had a pie thrown in my face because I was supporting that at the time in a very heated campaign.

I had Margaret Court, the tennis legend, boycotting Qantas, doing a front page article in the Western Australian saying she was boycotting the

airline because of my support of it. I had one of the leading opposition politicians saying I should stick to my knitting, but we stood up to that,

poured over a million dollars into the campaign, the largest contributors to it, and we got a phenomenal outcome, which I am very proud of.

QUEST: After 15 years at the helm, the controversies were mounting. There were feelings that Qantas had lost its way, that even though it had

survived the pandemic and was now once again reaching record profits, something was wrong.

So Alan Joyce decided to resign.

Did you stay too long? Did you not know when it was time to leave?

JOYCE: I was planning in my mind to go for the 100th anniversary of Qantas, which was in 2020-2021, and that's what we were working up to. But then a

critical moment came in 2020 when the borders closed down when COVID hit that we needed to raise equity and people were asking and the board asked

me to stay on firmly for another three years to see through the transformation and the COVID period.

I made that decision to do that. Hindsight is a great thing. If I look back on it, that would probably have been -- it would have been a better thing

to leave, but I would have left Qantas in the lurch.

And we did raise equity. One of the few airlines on public markets outside of government support that was able to do that, and then that got us

through that -- that got us through COVID.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Alan Joyce, you'll hear more of him in just a moment.

Those of a certain age, you might remember this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOICE OVER: Announcing a new age in communication, announcing AirFone, the air to ground telephone service now featured on this flight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:25:17]

QUEST: I actually remember the AirFone. It was futuristic. It was absurdly expensive way to make a call. And the onboard system minimized potential

radio interference, unlike cell phones, which have long been prohibited.

Even so, AirFones were phased out as mobile devices took off. Now, in- flight Wi-Fi, particularly Starlink, are making calls possible without cell service. Its creating regulatory area gray area, the Quiet Skies Act is

pushing the Department of Transportation in the U.S. to finalize a ban on in-flight calls.

The GBTA, the Global Business Travel Association is backing the legislation. Chief executive Suzanne Neufang is with me now.

Oh, gosh. Look, it is not -- you and I think probably agree in a sense, it is not about people having the odd Zoom call or a quick, I will be home for

dinner or can you please do this? It is about people who don t know when to shut up, who talk when the cabin should be sleeping. Do we really have to

ban it?

SUZANNE NEUFANG, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, GLOBAL BUSINESS TRAVEL ASSOCIATION: Well, you know, this legislation was passed in 2018, so it is not even a new

idea. I think the idea now is that we need to implement it in the United States and that is exactly what you're talking about.

I think for the business travelers as a consolidated voice that we represent and the travel managers who manage them and have to hear about

all of their complaints and their great trips, as well as their torment, I think for business travelers, we really just want to have a quiet cabin

where we can get work done or get some rest before that really intensive meeting comes up.

QUEST: Isn't the fascinating part about this? Those of us who travel most want this least and I could arguably say it is because, you know, I still

regard being -- flying as being, you know, the haven when I can't be reached, but I don t want to hear your Zoom or Teams call. I just don t.

NEUFANG: I know. I was just on a train this week and it reminded me of my 14-hour flight from China just a week ago to my next destination and

thinking how miserable I would have been with the person sitting right next to me on the train who was on a call the entire two hours, and on a train,

I could get up and move. You can't move on a plane, right?

QUEST: Can we just talk generally? So we've got a couple of minutes left. Business travel. The planes are full. The fares are exorbitant. I mean, at

the moment, business class fares and even this shift to premium leisure, which we are seeing, people are -- you can't get a seat for love nor money

on many flights.

NEUFANG: It is pretty amazing and we see in the business travel world as well, which is sometimes the other side of the coin for the leisure demand

that demand is still there. We see volumes increasing smaller at a lower rate, of course, than the spend, but the spend is rising at about seven

percent this year globally, and volume itself is increasing on the business travel side at about one percent.

So both are still going up and capacity is definitely the biggest concern along with geopolitical concerns and rising costs.

QUEST: They will get it wrong, it will all end in tears. Suzanne, you and I have seen this movie several times in some shape or form, but there is one

difference, I think, and I would just like to get your final thought on this.

The U.S. carriers have got their act together, and I am talking about the three biggies -- American, Delta and United. The product, the hard product

is now as good as anything else, anywhere else in the world and in some cases, the soft product too, is rivaling other global carriers.

NEUFANG: I think that's true. I think, who would have thought that ten years ago when all we were talking about Asian and Middle Eastern carriers

and now the U.S. based carriers are definitely making a run for their money and even the ones you didn t mention are really investing in that product.

QUEST: I am grateful for you. Thank you very much. I am just trying to work out the best way, if somebody is on the phone next to me, I think I will

just join in the conversation. That's how -- just sort of, oh yes, I agree with you. Oh, definitely.

Good to see you, Suzanne. Thank you for joining us tonight. I appreciate it.

It is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. Lisa Cook thought she would have been safe after the Supreme Court ruled that the President needed more evidence, or

at least needed to have a proper process before he could remove her.

Well, President Trump's latest efforts to remove the Fed governor, The White House has now set up a committee to investigate the unproven

allegations of mortgage fraud.

[16:30:21]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:33:30]

QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. Together, we'll have more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

President Trump is pressing ahead with his efforts to get rid of -- oust the Fed Governor Lisa Cook, the new committee that's been appointed to

investigate her.

And Anthropic wants her to be friendly to its A.I. models. The company is cracking down on abusive or cruel behavior.

We'll get to it after the headlines, because this is CNN, and here on this network, the news always comes first.

The U.S. Gulf Coast is now bracing for the arrival of Hurricane Isaias. The Category 3 is expected to make landfall to surround Pensacola in Florida in

a few hours from now.

Florida, Alabama, and Georgia have all declared states of emergency, and there are mandatory evacuation orders for several coastal communities.

Several aftershocks are now being reported following the powerful earthquake in southern Panama. Its magnitude 7.7, which is huge, and it

damaged some buildings and briefly triggered tsunami warnings across the region.

Panama's city public transit system suspended its service on two metro lines, and according to the local media, the main international airport was

temporarily closed as a precaution.

President Trump has picked his new White House press secretary, Katie Zacharia, will be the permanent replacement to Karoline Leavitt. Zacharia

is a conservative commentator who has previously advised Mr. Trump's social media company and briefly worked at the Department of Homeland Security.

[16:35:19]

President Trump's launching a new effort to oust the Fed Governor Lisa Cook. Now, it's the White House saying that a committee of inquiry will

look into allegations that Governor Cook made false statements in connection with one or more mortgages. That committee's the Labor Secretary

Keith Sonderling -- the new labor secretary, the National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett, as well as Andrea Lucas, the chair of the EEOC.

Equal opportunities. Cook's lawyers say she welcomes the opportunity to clear her name and demonstrate no legal basis to fire.

Elisabeth Buchwald in New York. The Supreme Court, when it gave its ruling, basically said, Lisa Cook was entitled to due process and fair process. It

did not say the president couldn't fire her for cause. So, this seems to be the fishing expedition for cause.

ELISABETH BUCHWALD, CNN ECONOMICS REPORTER: Yes, and fair process, due process, is that exactly a court of law in the White House. Not really sure

what this whole setup is. And again, these are all appointed by President Trump, the people who are going to be evaluating her.

So, it does seem like it's a bit of a fishing expedition, but it's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for Fed Governor Cook. If

she doesn't show up there, then, the White House could say that she is hiding all this stuff, and she wants to, like her lawyer said, prove that

she has the merits to be there.

But coming there, also bears the risk of what are they going to do with what she says?

QUEST: This is a minefield, because not only do they have to prove the for- cause part, but the definition of for-cause. I mean, we don't need to go too detailed now. But you and I both went into some detail when it first

came up. It's quite complicated. It's not just a minor matter, and the for- cause has to relate to the performance of your job.

BUCHWALD: Yes, that's correct. It's still somewhat of an open question. It's generally believed to be that it's just more than, I don't know, going

out to dinner on a Wednesday night and not doing the other thing you said you were going to do.

But, you know, in this case, it matters so much because of the Fed is supposed to be independent, and that means that they can't have this

outside influence.

Now, what President Trump has sought to do is use it to influence.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right.

BUCHWALD: But again, it's not clear what this for cause means. And I think they are going to, again, try to get this cause.

QUEST: OK. So, one final point: when this all came up last time, the markets were spooked. Do you think that there is the possibility here that

we have all got used to this issue, and therefore, the White House is thinking right now we can do it?

The markets are not going to take it. You know, we have been -- the markets have had its little temper tantrum over this one.

BUCHWALD: Yes. Well, you have the Supreme Court case already. So, I don't - - I'm not a legal expert here, but I'm going to guess that the justices probably wouldn't see this as a full legal court.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Sure.

BUCHWALD: And so, there would need to still probably be something else to prove Trump has the authority to fire her, and this just might not be it.

QUEST: I'm grateful to you. Have a lovely weekend. Thank you.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. The U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance is drawing criticism with comments about immigration and immigrant workers. His use of

the word "indentured" in particular, has created a backlash. I'll explain why in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:29]

QUEST: India says comments by Vice President Vance about foreign workers on temporary visas are deeply offensive. It follows that the United States has

announced it's suspending Microsoft and others from the program that lets foreign workers apply for U.S. green cards.

J.D. Vance accused Microsoft of laying off thousands of staff to replace them with people on H-1B visa scheme, many of whom are from India.

The language Mr. Vance used has come under fire, especially the use of the word "indentured," which has painful historical connotations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our message to Microsoft is: You are a great American company, but you've got to hire great American

workers. You cannot lay off American workers and then replace them with foreign indentured servants.

This is a fundamental insult to the American worker and to the American way of life.

We cannot allow visa programs that were designed to ensure that American corporations had access to the best and the brightest to use them to

undercut the wages of American workers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: The announcement on Microsoft's suspension from the green card program came as President Trump presented Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella with

the National Medal of Technology and Innovation.

Nadella, himself, of course, was born in India before coming to the United States as a student.

Payam Zamani is the founder and CEO of One Planet Group and the author of "Crossing the Desert", about his own harrowing journey to the United States

as a refugee who fled persecution in Iran at the age of 16.

Your -- I read your notes very carefully, because you actually answered -- you actually asked the questions of all. You know, for example, if there

are abuses of the system, isn't this the right way to deal with it, to suspend those companies that are abusing it, as the administration says

that they are? The H-1B is being abused.

PAYAM ZAMANI, FOUNDER, ONE PLANET GROUP: So, I mean, as we know, these are allegations at this point, and they need to be proven. If there are abuses

that are going on, clearly that should be addressed. Because abuse, of course, on one hand affects the competing corporations, other corporations,

but also, it even affects other immigrants and companies who are playing by the rule.

But again, there are allegations, and at this point, I don't know if it's clear if these allegations are true or not. Did Microsoft, in fact, lay off

American workers in order to give those jobs to others and do so at a lower wage? I think, you know, these things will get sorted out soon.

QUEST: But the damage that's being done by this action. I mean, as I understand it, it's not as if there is a million-and-one American workers

waiting to take these jobs who are even qualified to take these jobs. There is a shortage of this highly skilled level of workforce. Is there not?

ZAMANI: I agree, and also, when you consider the fact that, you know, we, as a nation, unlike many other developed countries, that they see an aging

population, they have a shrinking workforce. We have this blessing that people from all over the world, the brightest, they want to come to this

country, and we know that all the stats prove that when they come here at a disproportionate level, they build high-growth businesses that employ a lot

more people.

[16:45:15]

So, I think that we need to be careful how we approach this because how we act today could impact the jobs of tomorrow also in the U.S.

You know, there is something really good about this nation that represents hope to the world, because so many people want to come to the U.S. And we

want to fix the rules, but we don't want to give up that advantage that we have as a nation.

QUEST: Does this feel when I say personal to you, it's obviously, not you per se, but does this feel personal to you because of how you came to the

United States? Because of what you went through? Because you identify with this situation?

ZAMANI: Yes. I mean, that -- that's a great point. I mean, I -- you know, I lived a very difficult life in Iran as a young person. After the 1979

revolution, life was made difficult for many Christians, Jews, other minorities, just the general population. But particularly for Baha'is of

Iran.

And the fact that the U.S. gave me the opportunity to come to this country gave me, in a sense, another chance to live a life that could be a life of

impact. That's something that I could not have really expected from many other countries in the world.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right.

ZAMANI: But the U.S. gave me that. So, I think that, that specialness, that goodness that America can have at its core, is something that not only

benefits the world, but also benefits Americans because a lot of good people want to come to the U.S. As long as we have the right rules, we can

allow that and not give up that advantage.

QUEST: Payam, thank you so much. I'm really so grateful that you have joined us tonight and put that point. Thank you. Have a -- have a lovely

weekend, sir. Thank you.

ZAMANI: Thank you.

QUEST: Now, QUESTION MEANS BUSINESS: The Anthropic is banning abusive and cruel behavior towards its chatbots. The policy is raising questions about

A.I. consciousness. In a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:50:00]

QUEST: I always say yes and I always say please and thank you when I'm talking to any of the bots. Why? Because I'm frightened.

Now, Anthropic is setting a new boundary for how user's model -- treat its models. The company now says it will not tolerate abusive or cruel behavior

towards its chatbots.

In rare cases, Claude is allowed to end conversations with persistently abusive users.

It raises questions about the relationship between people and A.I.

Christiane yesterday spoke to David Robinson, a former OpenAI safety official, who's publicly split with a company and worries about abusing

chatbots. A slippery slope, he says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID ROBINSON, FORMER SAFETY TEAM LEADER, OPENAI: One thing, I think a lot about when it comes to this is the way that we interact. Right? If you

think about how you talk to a voice assistant or how you talk to Siri, you know, it's a robot, so you don't have to be nice to it. You don't have to

say please.

But my instinct when I'm around my kids, my instinct is always to model saying please and thank you, not because I want my kids to be confused

about a robot, but just because these are the same habits that we use when we speak to one another.

Is we -- you know, we address. I just worry that if we -- if we treat things like people, and then, we get sort of harsh with them, my theory is:

do we end up treating people like things?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Chara is with me. Chara Podimata is an assistant professor of operations research and statistics at MIT.

I mean, we can take this on several levels. We can talk about it as being consciousness and the rights and wrongs of treating A.I. as a conscious

being, and you know, going down to -- going down the papal line, or is that chap as just saying, it's simple common courtesy. Don't get out of the

habit of saying please and thank you.

CHARA PODIMATA, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF OPERATIONS RESEARCH AND STATISTICS, MIT: Yes. So, these are all excellent questions.

I would like to, to no surprise to you, probably, I would like to disentangle the two things here. Right? Because we are having two questions

all bundled as one. So, question number one is: Is it really true that A.I. is conscious? And this is a hotly debated topic, and this is a topic that,

once again, it's not just upon computer scientists to decide. Right?

There is a lot of deep definitions about what it means to be conscious and whether even consciousness exists outside of like a physical body form.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right.

PODIMATA: So, putting this question aside for a second, I would like to address the second part, which is: Should we be talking to A.I. in an

abusive or cruel manner? And Robinson brought up great points about how this may translate to the way that we treat humans in our real life. But

also, I would like to point out that it is Anthropic's prerogative to not want their systems to be subjected to this sort of language, which

potentially for people that don't use private models or private mode, all these like prompts end up in the training data. Right?

So, and I'm sure that Anthropic and the other frontier model companies they are doing a great deal of work to make sure that they clean these data.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right. So --

PODIMATA: But this requires extra time and human effort.

QUEST: So, on this first point about it, I mean, whether it's conscious or not, my worry would be that the thing is programmed to respond badly if I'm

rude to it.

Therefore, why would -- I mean, whether it's conscious or not, if somebody's told it, if somebody swears at you, you can fight back, and we

don't know that. We don't -- there is still so much unknown about how these things are programmed to respond that we better stake -- skate to the

thickest ice possible in case something goes wrong, or am I being naive?

PODIMATA: I guess like this is like a hard topic to discuss. Right? Because all these frontier models, they are making -- I know, they are saying that

they are making a great effort to make their systems sound empathetic, and not like be aggressive or like angry at the users, or and sometimes this

result seemed like completely the opposite like side of like sycophantic behavior or whatnot.

So, I don't think specifically that the concern is that you are going to be aggressive or abusive to the chatbot, and then, it's going to come back to

you and like respond in like an upset or like aggressive manner.

So, I don't think that this is quite the concern that we're discussing here.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right.

So, are you a yes, please, no, thank you sort of person when you speak to chat or whichever chatbot you are using? Do you sort of always remember to

be courteous?

[16:55:01]

PODIMATA: You know, sometimes I've caught myself a few times being like, oh, thank you, if it completes a task that I've asked it to do. But you

know, most frequently I end up being more not curt exactly, but I treat it as like, hey, here is a task, can we do this?

So, although it's not abusive language, it's definitely more direct than what I would do with like a human.

QUEST: I like that. That's my strategy. I shall be more direct than if I -- that's a good way of putting it.

Thank you, ma'am. Thank you very much, Professor. I mean, I have just been looking at your whiteboard behind. I have no idea what it all means, but it

looks very impressive.

Thank you, ma'am, for joining us tonight on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. Very kind of you to take time.

And finally, tonight I want to show you the markets very quickly and how we have ended the week. A high note, good strong gains, green on the board for

that, and indeed green on -- more green than red.

Amazon had a good session, didn't it? By Jingo, my lad! And look at Cisco, 3m the other way. All you pays your money, you take your choice. Why was

Amazon up and the video down? Who knows? It was because it was a Friday.

And that's we will take a "PROFITABLE MOMENT" after the break. It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. It's a Friday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Tonight's "PROFITABLE MOMENT". So, here is -- on this A.I. and being polite to it. I determined quite early on in my A.I. usage that I was going

to be polite, that I would say please and thank you, and I would also get tart and sharp if I didn't like the answer, or if, for example, Chat or

Claude said -- you know, that horrible prompt right at the end, would you like me to do it and tell you this, this, this?

Well, why didn't you tell me that in the first place? Or, you knew what I wanted, get on with it.

And the reason why is because, for better or worse, we are integrating with these bots, these machines for the foreseeable future. And it's only going

to get deeper whether it's asking a technical question, asking a theoretical question, a personal question. Just an intimate question of

moment of chat.

And if I'm going to do that with anybody, anything, anywhere, anytime, I think, it's incumbent upon me not to let my standards down, which is why I

like the professor. I can be direct. I can be firm, I can be clear, and I can also be courteous.

[17:00:05]

It doesn't mean to say I'm going to say thank you very much, ChatGPT. I'm very kind. (INAUDIBLE) what you did.

END