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CNN Live Event/Special
Zimmerman Trial: Two Mothers Testifying
Aired July 05, 2013 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is a CNN special: "Self-Defense or Murder? The George Zimmerman Trial." Today in court, a tale of two mothers. From the witness stand, and in perhaps what was the most dramatic moments in this explosive case, the mothers of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin testified. Each telling a very different story of those screams heard on that 911 call that night, February of last year in which Trayvon Martin was killed. It is a pivotal piece of evidence in this case. First, let me show you this. This is what Trayvon Martin's mother told the court this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, LEAD PROSECUTOR: I want to play a recording for you, ma'am.
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
DISPATCHER: 911, do you need police, fire, or medical?
CALLER: Maybe both. I'm not sure. There's just someone screaming outside.
DISPATCHER: What's the address that they're near?
CALLER: It's 1211 Twin Tree Lane.
DISPATCHER: Is this -- in Sanford?
CALLER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: OK. And is it a male or female?
CALLER: It sounds like a male.
DISPATCHER: You don't know why?
CALLER: I don't know why. I think they're yelling help but I don't know. Someone got shot.
DISPATCHER: Does he look hurt to you?
CALLER: I can't see him. I don't want to go out there. I don't know what's going on. They're sending.
DISPATCHER: You think he's yelling help?
CALLER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: What is your --
CALLER: There's gunshots.
DISPATCHER: You just heard gunshots?
CALLER: Yes.
(END AUDIOTAPE)
RIONDA: Ma'am, that screaming or yelling, do you recognize that?
SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN'S MOTHER: Yes.
RIONDA: And who do you recognize that to be, ma'am?
FULTON: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: That was this morning. The prosecution rested its case late this afternoon, and the defense picked right up beginning its side with another mother, George Zimmerman's mother, and this is what she had to say about that exact same 911 call. Here she was.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
DISPATCHER: 911, do you need police, fire, or medical?
CALLER: Maybe both. I'm not sure. There's just someone screaming outside.
DISPATCHER: What's the address that they're near?
CALLER: It's 1211 Twin Tree Lane.
DISPATCHER: Is this -- in Sanford?
CALLER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: OK. And is it a male or female?
CALLER: It sounds like a male.
DISPATCHER: You don't know why?
CALLER: I don't know why. I think they're yelling help but I don't know. Someone got shot.
DISPATCHER: Does he look hurt to you?
CALLER: I can't see him. I don't want to go out there. I don't know what's going on. They're sending.
DISPATCHER: You think he's yelling help?
CALLER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: What is your --
(END AUDIOTAPE)
MARK O'MARA, ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE LAWYER: Were you table to hear that voice?
GLADYS ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S MOTHER: Yes.
O'MARA: In the background?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
O'MARA: You heard a woman's voice in the foreground, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
O'MARA: Do you know whose voice that was screaming in the background?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
O'MARA: And whose voice was that?
ZIMMERMAN: My son, George.
O'MARA: And are you certain of that?
ZIMMERMAN: Because he's my son.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: Two mothers, two stories, both women recognizing the voice as that of her son. We'll speak live coming up to George Zimmerman's Defense Attorney Mark O'Mara in just a moment. But first, let's go straight to Sanford, Florida, to Martin Savidge who has been covering this trial day in and day out.
And Martin, what an afternoon, first, we open with this final day for the state. We see the mother of Trayvon Martin testifying, and then not even sure if the defense would call its first witness today, here we have out of the gate the mother of George Zimmerman, incredibly dramatic in that courtroom.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke, hello to you, absolutely. Without a doubt, this was the most dramatic day so far in this trial, and as you point out, I mean, it was widely known when the prosecution was ready to wrap up its case, it would put Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin's mother, on the stand and ask her that question, who was that voice screaming that you hear. I don't think anybody anticipated in the same day George Zimmerman's mother, Gladys, would take the stand and be asked the same exact question after hearing the same exact audio. Take a listen again.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RIONDA: Ma'am, that screaming or yelling, do you recognize that?
FULTON: Yes.
RIONDA: And who do you recognize that to be, ma'am?
FULTON: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
O'MARA: Do you know whose voice that was screaming in the background?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
O'MARA: And whose voice was that?
ZIMMERMAN: My son, George.
O'MARA: And are you certain of that?
ZIMMERMAN: Because he's my son.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: And, of course, it was one mother that began the testimony today, and it was another that almost was the very last voice that the jury heard before they went off on their weekend break -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: Before they went off on their weekend, after hearing from the mother of George Zimmerman, then they hear from this uncle who without equivocation again saying that the screams on that 911 call were without a doubt that of his nephew.
SAVIDGE: Right. And what made this really powerful -- I should point out there was another family member, and that was the older brother of Trayvon Martin who was called to the witness stand, and he, too, said, look, I know that voice. It is Trayvon Martin, but as you point out later in the day we had the uncle who is a sheriff's deputy in Orange County. He said he first heard those screams on the news and he knew instantly who that voice was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORGE MEZA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S UNCLE: Not only I heard the scream, I felt the scream like my nephew, screaming for his life. It was a moment that I actually live with me every moment that I heard the portion of that because it was, you know, the feeling of saying, I heard Georgie. It was George screaming for his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: And a notation to that, Brooke, on the side of the courtroom George Zimmerman broke down into tears as he listened to his uncle make that description.
BALDWIN: I was watching him wiping away what looked to be tears, swallowing hard, listening to his family members. Here he was, for the first time showing emotion there in court, and one more testimony I have to ask you about, Martin, as we look at the pictures before resting the case this afternoon, the state calls this associate medical examiner. I talked to a number of attorneys today. They called this man's testimony bad, wishy washy, rigid. What did you make of this?
SAVIDGE: He was all over the map. Shiping Bao is the assistant medical adviser here on this particular case. He was the one who actually did the autopsy on 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. Now, he did make a number of points. One of them was fairly dramatic, especially when he talked about the fact that he believed that Trayvon, though shot in the heart, lived on for some time. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIPING BAO, ASSISTANT MEDICAL EXAMINER: It is my opinion that he was still alive. He was still in pain. He was still in suffering.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: And then on cross-examination though the defense was able to get Dr. Bao to admit that there had been a number of procedural errors that could have impacted the evidence or the body's evidence. And one other thing that he brought out, he kept saying repeatedly and this didn't help at all with his testimony, he did not remember even doing Trayvon Martin's autopsy -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: Martin Savidge for us in Sanford, Florida. Martin, we'll come back to you later this hour. Thank you so much.
I want to bring in now Daryl Parks. He is the co-counsel for the Martin family. Mr. Parks, nice to see you tonight. Let me begin with today, which was absolutely the most dramatic day of this trial with these two mothers testifying both in the morning and then in the afternoon.
And here you -- I can't help but think of these six female jurors, five of whom are women, and my question to you really is I know what side you're taking here, but how is the jury to determine which mother to believe?
DARYL PARKS, MARTIN FAMILY CO-COUNSEL: Well, I think this jury has to weigh all of the evidence in this case. I think that they've heard from various family members in this case and I think one of the witness testified that he heard the screams, but didn't hear the other TV audio that took place. They'll have to weigh that evidence in this case.
BALDWIN: We know that the state rested its case and the prosecution ended with this, Dr. Bao, medical examiner who changed his mind, was all over the place, he's really been criticized for much of his testimony. Powerful witnesses here though because you have the defense today starting with George Zimmerman's mother and then this uncle, and here you have the jury leaving for the weekend, and the final thing, the freshest testimony on their minds, is that from the defense, pretty emotional, riveting stuff from the defense. Strategy wise, how concerned about that are you about that?
PARKS: I'm not concerned at all. You used the term pivotal earlier in the telecast. I don't think that this case is going to hinge just on whose voice you're hearing. There's no question there was a fight. At the end of the day, we've heard testimony in this case also that whoever was on top was holding down the arms of George Zimmerman with his legs, right, and holding the nose and mouth.
And probably even most importantly we heard the testimony of Mr. Good who does not talk about the beating that George alleges that he took, right? And at the end of the day we do not believe that George Zimmerman had to pull out a gun and shoot Trayvon Martin in the heart. But beyond that, we should not forget that this incident never happens if George Zimmerman followed the instructions of the 911 operator and stays in his vehicle as he was instructed.
O'MARA: There have been a number of inconsistencies certainly in this trial, differing versions depending on the eyewitness, and we'll have to see who the defense decides to call as we look ahead to the next week. But let me just play some sound for you because we heard from the defense attorney, Mark O'Mara, once court ended for this Friday afternoon and he was pretty critical of some of the state's strategy. Want to play you this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'MARA: I wasn't surprised by what they put on. I was probably more surprised by what they didn't put on. There were other family members in the Martin family that I would have imagined that they would have called, so that's -- that was a bit of a surprise to me. A lot of the law enforcement officers who had heavy involvement in the case were a surprise to me, that they sort of excised that out of their case. So, again, they can cull down the case to exactly what they want to do and only present what they want, but I thought it was quite abbreviated with law enforcement, family members, and, yes, probably those two areas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So abbreviated. I talked to other folks in Sanford who sort of agreed. They anticipated more members of law enforcement, more members of Trayvon Martin's family to testify. That didn't happen. Your response to that?
PARKS: Well, number one, they obviously have the right to bring on other witnesses after the defense puts on their case, number one. Number two, I think it was pretty strong when you listen to the directed verdict arguments today. It was very powerful, some of the things that Attorney Mantei said in representing the state's interests in doing so. It was very pointed and very clear. But also, too, when the judge made her ruling, she made it very clear that improving the case for second-degree murder. That she believed that the state had put on both direct evidence and circumstantial evidence supporting the case and the charges.
BALDWIN: I think many people though know JOA, Judgment of Acquittal, is procedure at best and that was anticipated that this judge, you know, would toss out the defense argument that there's not enough evidence. But let me move on, on an emotional level, you're in touch with the family, sir.
We saw Sybrina Martin testify early this morning, this grieving mother. I can't imagine having to sit there and speak about a dead 17-year-old child of hers. She tweeted this morning, quote, "Day 19. I pray that God gives me strength to properly represent my angel, Trayvon. He may not be perfect, but he's mine. I plead the blood of Jesus for healing."
I don't know how much, Mr. Parks, you have been in touch with Miss Fulton, but how is she and how is Tracy Martin? How are they holding up?
PARKS: It's been tough. I have been with them every day this week. It's been a very, very hard struggle. They have been very prayerful. Obviously, she knew she would testify this week. It was tough for her getting ready to go in there and to take the stand and speak up for her son. It was tough -- you have to sit there and think about some of the questions that she was asked, right?
Some of the questions she was asked after you've lost your child, right, to sit there and to go through that what she had to go through in the questioning, in the cross-examination. She endured it. She endured it because she is very committed to the legacy of her son and God has continued to keep her, Jahvaris and Tracy.
I have to say Jahvaris is a very quiet person. He did a great job to come in there and represent his younger brother who lost his life. It was a tough day for her. I can tell you at the end of the day, she was still keeping it together, but she told me she was exhausted. Remember, she has been here every day through these proceedings to make sure that her son gets justice, and we believe that she will.
BALDWIN: Daryl Parks, I appreciate you joining me. Thank you so much. You know, you bring up some of the criticism about the cross- examination of Sybrina Fulton. We will ask the man himself who did that cross-exam, Mr. Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman's defense attorney joining me live coming up next. Do not miss this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: Welcome back to this special, "Self-Defense or Murder, the George Zimmerman Trial." The prosecution rested today and the defense began late this afternoon in Sanford, Florida, by calling the mother and the uncle of George Zimmerman. With me now for an exclusive interview is Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's defense attorney. Mr. O'Mara, nice to see you, sir. Big last couple weeks for you, huge day for you all as you called your first two witnesses. I want to begin fair and square, I just spoke with co-counsel for the Martin family.
I want to begin similarly talking about these two mothers. Mr. O'Mara, first we see Sybrina Fulton this morning and then the mother you bring on opening up this afternoon, the mother of George Zimmerman. Let me just play both of these women, both testifying about one voice, a scream on a 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RIONDA: Ma'am, that screaming or yelling, do you recognize that?
FULTON: Yes.
RIONDA: And who do you recognize that to be, ma'am?
FULTON: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
O'MARA: Do you know whose voice that was screaming in the background?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
O'MARA: And whose voice was that?
ZIMMERMAN: My son, George.
O'MARA: And are you certain of that?
ZIMMERMAN: Because he's my son.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: On the same day, Mark O'Mara, do you think that the testimony of both of these women cancel each other out, negate one another?
O'MARA: Well, I think the jury is going to realize that both these women have gone through tragedies. Miss Fulton lost her son, Miss Zimmerman has sort of lost her son at least temporarily having to live in hiding for a year and facing a life imprisonment sentence based on the state trying to convict him of something.
But I think the jury is going to look at this and say both of those women just have to live with the belief that it is, in fact, their son. They're going to have to make a determination not based on what each mom says, but on the other evidence, sort of the forensic evidence.
BALDWIN: Six female jurors, five of whom are mothers, I'm sure sitting and listening very closely to both testimonies today. Strategy wise, let's talk about your witness list. Here you have -- you bring out George Zimmerman's mother and then the uncle. Why open with these two key family members?
O'MARA: Well, because I think the issue of whose voice it is screaming for help is significant with the jury. Quite honestly, once the jury decides, if they can, who was screaming for help, I think everything else falls in line. My hope is they will look not only at what each mom says, but what other people say. What Tracy Martin meant hen he said it wasn't his son's voice screaming for help.
Even when Jahvaris talks and says that he thinks it might have been his brother, but he wasn't sure. Much more importantly, we have to look at the other evidence, the injuries to George, the forensics that support the fact that George is the one attacked, the fact that Trayvon Martin had no injuries but for the gunshot wound. I think that they're going to take it all sort of holistically or in context and we will be able to realize it was George screaming for help.
BALDWIN: Back to Sybrina Fulton, Mark, this morning and the way in which you cross-examined her. I talked to multiple lawyers today, and in describing the way in which you proceeded, they called it a rookie mistake, they never would have gone there, the link, the questioning. Let's roll some of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'MARA: You certainly hope as a mom, you certainly hope that your son, Trayvon Martin, would not have done anything that would have led to his own death, correct?
FULTON: What I hope for is that this would have never happened and he would still be here. That's my hope.
O'MARA: Absolutely. And now dealing with the reality that he's no longer here, it's certainly your hope as a mom, hold out hope as long as you can, that Trayvon Martin was in no way responsible for his own death, correct?
FULTON: I don't believe he was.
O'MARA: I know. And that's the hope that you continue, correct?
FULTON: I don't understand what you're trying to ask me.
O'MARA: Again, I don't mean to put you through more than we need to. No other questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Why did you do that?
O'MARA: Because it needed to be said, it needed to be asked. Obviously, the reality is that each of those moms lived with the hope that that's their son screaming. There's no way that I would represent George Zimmerman and not question Miss Fulton about the reality that it may well have been her son who did cause his own death and, therefore, that it was George screaming for help. It's difficult, it's sensitive. I would challenge anyone who says that was a rookie mistake because I think it's the way it needs to be done having done it in probably 40 other murder trials, and it's just something you have to get out because after all, that jury has to make a decision how -- what credibility to give each witness and we are charged with the responsibility of bringing out those sort of biases that exist, those emotionalisms that are out there.
BALDWIN: But, Mark, you point out in your own words here, we have two grieving mothers grieving in their own way and watching your witness, George Zimmerman's mother, one questions asked on cross and they were finished. What did you gain by question after question after question of Trayvon Martin's mother?
O'MARA: Well, the few questions I asked her was to deal with the reality of what she was going through and how that might impact on her ability to hear what she says she heard. I believe that Miss Fulton believes that it was Trayvon Martin's voice because that is exactly what she wants to believe, but the reality is you have to take it all in context, and all of the other evidence would suggest it wasn't. That's what I had to bring across in that questioning.
BALDWIN: I also want to call your attention to your client, to George Zimmerman's demeanor today. This is the first time, Mark, that we have seen him appearing to wipe away tears, swallowing hard. This was late this afternoon during the testimony of his mother and I noticed in particular with that of his uncle when it was his uncle saying unequivocally it was the voice of George Zimmerman on that 911 call. How is George Zimmerman? How is he holding up through this?
O'MARA: Well, this is a very, very difficult time for him. He is being prosecuted by a state attorney's office that wants to put him away for the rest of his life for doing what he believed he had to do to protect his own life. And while you can steel yourself pretty well against the emotions that are happening in a courtroom, I think it's much more difficult to do so when you hear your own family members speak.
And I think that what happened was while George has been intentionally sort of non-emotional through the presentation of the state's case, when it's his mom up there talking, when it's the uncle he grew up there up there talking, I think that just hits you in the heart, very difficult to deal with, and I think it showed with his tears.
BALDWIN: Got to ask the question everyone is asking of you, Mark, and that is will he testify? When do you make that determination?
O'MARA: We're going to make that determination sometime next week. I think most of our case will be going on then. As I said from the beginning, that decision is never made until I convince myself that the state has proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt such that we would need to put any evidence on and certainly the evidence of George's own testimony. If he did not have all of his statements out, if he truly had to get in front of that jury to speak the first word, then I would probably say he's definitely going to testify. Now since he has so much information out there from all of his statements, we'll make our decision in more of a dynamic fashion once we see how the rest of the case goes.
BALDWIN: Mark O'Mara with us tonight. Thank you so much. Enjoy your weekend. Big week ahead, sir.
O'MARA: I'll be working. Take care.
BALDWIN: I'm sure you will. And as you just heard, both mothers, the mother of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin, take the stand today. The question though is it's about the jury and who did the jury believe? We'll have a closer look at this riveting testimony next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
DISPATCHER: Does he look hurt to you?
CALLER: I can't see him. I don't want to go out there. I don't know what's going on. They're sending.
DISPATCHER: So you think he's yelling help?
CALLER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: All right -- what is your --
(END AUDIOTAPE)
BALDWIN: The 911 call from the night that George Zimmerman fatally shot Trayvon Martin. Today, that call front and center in the trial with the mothers of both Zimmerman and Martin testifying about the screams heard on that call.
CNN's Martin Savidge is live in Sanford with us tonight with more on the riveting testimony.
And, Martin, here is what I want to know. You're sitting in that courtroom throughout the day, you're also watching not only the mothers' testify, you're watching these six female jurors, five of the six of mothers. What was their body language like while these mothers were testifying?
SAVIDGE: Yes. You know, really by being in the courtroom one of the few advantages you have, there are many actually, but the strongest is that you can look the jury in the face. You can watch and try to get any sense of reaction when they listen to this powerful testimony, and today I really made it a point to focus on them.
But I have to tell you, Brooke, they do not emote a lot of emotion. They really don't.
I will point out two interesting things, both of them involving Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina. Every time she took the stand, which was twice today, it was immediately that Bernie de la Rionda, that's the prosecutor, would say, oh, I need a side bar.
And these side bars would go on for some time, and there was Sybrina sitting in the jury box, isolated, kind of alone, only a few feet away from those jurors. And could you sense that was awkward for the jurors, that they would look occasionally, they would glance at her, but then look away. I mean, didn't get into a staring match or anything like that.
So that was a very powerful moment. And then during that cross- examination when, you know, Mark O'Mara began asking questions, their heads literally like a tennis match would bounce back and forth. They follow everything very closely. They seem to really be fixated on following the information they're hearing.
BALDWIN: Let me talk a little bit more about this. I want to bring in my legal experts who will be with me tonight. We have Mark NeJame, criminal defense attorney, and CNN and HLN legal analyst. Also, CNN legal correspondent Jean Casarez, attorney and former prosecutor, Faith Jenkins, and defense attorney Danny Cevallos.
So, welcome to all of you.
Let me pick up where Martin left off with these six female jurors.
With the testimony of both these mothers, Danny, let me start with you, does each testimony and the identification of the scream as that of her son, does that negate the other. Are we back at zero here?
DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think that's a very simple way of looking at it. It certainly is possible. The jurors may conclude that neither are credible. It may be a wash.
However, what does that tend to show? If you believe, for example, that it was Trayvon Martin's voice, absolutely. What element of the crime ultimately does that begin to show? Each of them carries a slightly different weight.
However, it's very possible that the jurors could conclude that both of these are mothers, both of them absolutely believe that is their child and, therefore, because of that, each of them is not very credible.
And again, jurors can choose to believe part of testimony or if they find someone not credible, they can choose to disbelieve their testimony in its entirety.
BALDWIN: So then how do they do that, Faith? How do they do that? How does each of these jurors determine who or what to believe here? FAITH JENKINS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I think the jurors believe that these mothers actually believe what they're saying is true, that that's their son screaming on the tape. So I think they're going to look outside of that and look at the actual evidence of the tape itself and the surrounding circumstances of George Zimmerman's own statements.
If these jurors do not believe George Zimmerman's story, they will not believe that's him screaming on the tape. And so, they're going to discount that completely. And on the other hand, if they don't believe that the state has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not act in self-defense, then you're going to have the contradiction to that.
So I think they're going to listen to the tape for themselves. I think they're going to listen carefully to when -- as to when the screams stop, and I also think they're going to listen to George Zimmerman's statements and decide if they believe him.
BALDWIN: Mark NeJame, criminal defense attorney, let me ask you about Mark O'Mara. I just talked to him a second ago. You know, I was pushing him a little bit on his cross-examination of Sybrina Fulton. You know, for some people, lawyers I talked to, it's tough to watch today. What did you make of what he did?
He told me a second ago, look, my client faces life in prison. I had to ask the tough questions, as difficult as it was. What do you make of how he went about it?
MARK NEJAME, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Look, it was risky. There's no question it was risky. You know --
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: But was it a good risk?
NEJAME: Well, defense 101 you don't do it. He took a chance. I don't think he needed to do it.
You know, do you that type of thing when you need a throw a Hail Mary pass because your case is in danger and you've got to do what you've got to do because you have to pull it out. He's not in that position. His case is going pretty well considering the fact this is a prosecution case so far and the defense has scored a lot of points.
So I think the point he was wanting to make and I think he went farther than he needed to, to make it. And that is that if, in fact, it was Trayvon Martin who was on top, the case would be different. There's a way to ask that without getting into the sensitivities that he did, and I think that he didn't need to go there.
He knows what is he's doing. He's an excellent defense lawyer, but I think if he had a do over, he would do it over in a different way.
BALDWIN: Jean Casarez, here we are. We're going into the weekend. You know, the state rested today. Weren't really sure who or when the defense would begin calling and the court went until about 5:30 in the afternoon. The jurors, fresh on their minds is the testimony of both George Zimmerman's mother and uncle.
How do you think that's sitting with the jury this weekend? Do you think it helps the defense or not as much as we think?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I'm sure the jury is thinking about it, but I'll tell you what paved the way for this was, number one, the judge's ruling disallowing expert testimony. The judge said there could still be lay testimony, which is what this was.
And then also the Dr. Nakasone, who is the senior engineer, the audio engineer for the FBI, that said the best person is somebody that's familiar with the voice, but beyond that somebody who has heard them scream or have that high voice. Well, all of the parents that took the stand today and the uncle and then also the brother of Trayvon, they all said it was Trayvon's voice.
But you didn't hear one of them say I remember when he was a little boy or I remember a couple years ago and he just screamed because of something happening. You didn't hear any of that. You just heard generalizations that, yes, I know that's my child, my brother, my nephew because he's my relative.
BALDWIN: To my legal experts, all four of you, stand by.
Coming up next, we have to talk Dr. Bao, the medical examiner and his testimony today for the prosecution. Did it help or did it hurt the state's case against George Zimmerman?
Stay with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BALDWIN: Breaking news just into us here at CNN. We're confirming that Nicaragua's President Daniel Ortega said he would grant NSA leaker Edward Snowden asylum in his country, if -- and I'm quoting him here -- "if circumstances permit." This is what President Ortega said today during a speech in the capital, in Managua today. He didn't elaborate more.
Again, we still are presuming but have no real confirmation that Snowden is still sitting somewhere in that transit zone in the Moscow airport in Russia. We're going to monitor this development and we'll bring you the latest, of course, as it comes available to us at CNN as we follow that story.
Let me take you back to the George Zimmerman murder trial now out of Sanford, Florida, because the jury heard a key witness for the prosecution, this associate medical examiner by the name of Dr. Shiping Bao. And he testified today that Trayvon Martin was alive. His estimate, anywhere from one to 10 minutes after that fatal gunshot to his heart. He had a lot more to say.
Let's go back to Martin Savidge in Sanford.
And, Martin, this witness, look, he's a scientist. He was rigid in his answering but he also seemed to change his mind quite a bit.
SAVIDGE: He did. In fact, he seemed to wander all over the place, and he was on the stand actually for much of the day despite talking about the drama of the mothers. The focus really was on the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy on Trayvon Martin. And I think the real surprise at least to many of us who have followed this story is that we know, of course, Trayvon Martin was shot through the heart. I think a lot of people just assume that you die instantly.
And this medical examiner pointed out very, very poignantly that he didn't think that was the case, that the young man continued to live for some time. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SHIPING BAO, CONDUCTED FINAL AUTOPSY ON TRAYVON MARTIN: I believe he was alive for one to ten minutes after he was shot. His heart was beating until there was no blood left. At that point his heart stopped, and he was completely silent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And so, this is going to be an obvious question. This was a fatal shot, is that correct?
BAO: There is two holes on the right ventricle of the heart. There's no chance he can survive, no chance, zero.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: At one point, the medical examiner talked about the pain and suffering that Trayvon may have been going through and that he couldn't move. Now, a lot of this was talked about and countered with the cross-examination of defense.
But I think for jurors to hear that, there's no way that it would not have an impact. It was certainly delivered in a way that almost sent chills through you, Brooke.
BALDWIN: Let me talk about this, Martin. Thank you.
Mark NeJame, let's bring Mark back in, criminal defense attorney and CNN and HLN legal analyst. CNN legal correspondent Jean Casarez, attorney and former prosecutor Faith Jenkins, and defense attorney Danny Cevallos. And on the phone with me, forensic scientist Larry Kobilinsky.
And, Larry, let me begin with you, because you are a forensic scientist. You have testified in a number of DNA cases and you have said this guy, this Dr. Bao, was the worst witness ever. Why?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST (via telephone): Well, it was an unmitigated disaster for the prosecution. To end with Dr. Bao, it couldn't be worse. He -- for example, he prepared a script which he brought with him which would describe how he would answer potential questions. He didn't even realize that a document like that is discoverable. It's a very amateurish.
But I think the important point is that with every cross- examination question, he lost credibility on a number of issues. His findings about the intermediate distance for the shot contradicts Amy Siewert's testimony that it was a contact shot.
He changed his opinion about the level of THC, tetrahydrocannabinol in the body of Trayvon Martin. Initially, he said that it would cause no intoxication, no physical or mental effect.
Then, upon cross-examination, he changed his mind and admitted there would be an effect.
He first said a person shot the way Trayvon Martin was shot would survive anyplace from one to 10 minutes. That is not what he said when he was deposed. He initially said one to three minutes.
He also indicated at first that after being shot the way Trayvon Martin was shot, he would not be able to move at all. Under cross- examination, he then indicated, yes, he could move. So there are --
BALDWIN: Right, and that was significant -- let me jump in. That was significant because we know we saw in the police tape, the walk through with George Zimmerman, you know, he has said that Trayvon Martin said to him basically you got me, and he said he held his hands down. We know Trayvon Martin's hands were found under his body. So, that look good for the defense.
Let me go back to my panel and I'm looking at all, for of you all, and I want to see, does anyone disagree with Larry? Does anyone think that Dr. Bao hit it out of the park as the state's final witness?
JENKINS: No. Crickets.
BALDWIN: No, Faith?
JENKINS: He didn't hit it out of the park. Obviously, he was a very necessary witness for the prosecutors because they needed to highlight several things with his testimony, where the injuries were on Trayvon, the trajectory of the bullet, and also the lack of injuries on Trayvon's hands, for example. So they are going to use several key points that he made in his testimony today in their closing arguments.
But this witness, he's a professional. He should -- he's testified in many trials before, but he just lacked clarity and organization in a lot of things he testified about and some of the major points that the prosecutors need to make were lost in some of the details of his testimony. And he was also a little too combative with the defense attorney. So that was a real problem. BALDWIN: Let me go back to the notes because this is something Larry brought up. Much ado was made about these notes. You know, did he or did he not have prepared questions and answers. Was it like a cheat sheet this guy was reading up of?
Mark O'Mara afterwards sort of seemed to back off, saying this was maybe a language barrier. But have you ever seen anything like this in the courtroom?
CASAREZ: You're asking me. I have never seen anything like this in the courtroom.
BALDWIN: I'm seeing heads shaking. No, no, you've never.
How about you, Mark?
NEJAME: I've had cases -- I have had cases where people come in with a file and they don't expect that we're going to ask for the file and we do the exact same thing. I have had it happen a handful of times in court over the years.
So, it does happen. Not very frequently because once it happens, then everybody knows you don't do that and they get instructed. Typically, police officers who have done that.
But the challenge for the state in this particular instance is I think they run a beautiful, organized trial as it relates to telling a story, keeping it simplified, and having it easily explainable to the jury. And then it all unraveled, it all unfolded at that last minute.
BALDWIN: It got wonky.
NEJAME: I don't think -- they did not spend enough time with this M.E. They relied on the hometown M.E. who they brought in from Duval County, in Jacksonville, and didn't spend enough time with the actual M.E. who performed the autopsy.
And I think that lack of preparation, which is not like the rest of the case they put on, ended up hurting them and they should have been more prepared in getting him ready and understanding what he was going to say and not so much relied on their hometown pick M.E. who they brought in from Jacksonville.
BALDWIN: Faith, Danny and Larry, I want to thank you for joining me. Thank you for joining me tonight. We've got to move on. Jenny, I know you want to jump.
But we have to talk about Monday's testimony because who will the defense call? Did the prosecution prove its case thus far? We'll also talk about the issue of race, the issue of race in this trial, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: So in this trial, the defense is trying to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury and the big question tonight is if George Zimmerman will take the stand. Should he?
With me again, Martin Savidge from Sanford. Also, Jean Casarez. And joining us, Marc Lamont Hill, Columbia University professor and host of "Huff Post Live".
Marc Lamont Hill, let's begin with you here. And let me talk about something we've spoken about before, and that being race. You know, Trayvon Martin's family maintains that this is not a case about race.
But this is -- would you say this trial is a representation of current race relations in America? Let's go there.
MARC LAMONT HILL, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Oh, absolutely. There is no way you can talk Trayvon Martin without talking about race. One of the key challenges that the prosecution has is they have to convince not just a nation but more importantly, a jury, that a young, black male is a victim of violence, rather than a purveyor of violence.
And that's something that's very difficult to do because so many of the racial scripts in our mind see young black men, particularly who are in urban areas, poor or working class, we see them as purveyors of violence, we see them as civic threats as opposed to people who need protection of the state. So that's a tough sale for many jurors.
BALDWIN: Martin Savidge, to you, since you were there covering it. You were there really since the very beginning. We know Florida police, if -- this is the big if -- you know, George Zimmerman is acquitted, Florida police are preparing for riots.
Is that -- is that still the case?
SAVIDGE: I bet it is. I mean, they have to. They have to plan for any possible contingency. I don't think that there's any direct indication that that is going to happen but, obviously, they have to plan for the safety and security of the neighborhoods. So they are moving forward with that.
That's about as far as I can go, really.
BALDWIN: Jean, on a scale from one to ten, how do you rate the state's performance so far?
CASAREZ: Gee, as someone who is objective, as the case goes, the prosecution makes strong points, one being today, the autopsy photos. I mean, that jury saw for the first time the autopsy photos of Trayvon Martin. I was in the courtroom. I saw them myself.
And you saw a young kid, you saw someone that is not the person you saw in the hoodie in the 7-Eleven. You saw a young kid. You saw somebody who was very thin.
Now, we go into the defense case. They have a burden now and it's called self-defense because that is their burden. It is not has high as beyond a reasonable doubt, but they've got to show this jury that it is itself defense and then it goes back to the prosecution to show beyond a reasonable doubt, it's not self-defense.
BALDWIN: Martin, 30 seconds, what's coming up Monday?
SAVIDGE: Well, I think you'll see some witness deja vu. I mean, some of those witnesses people have already said, for the prosecution sounded like they ought to be for the defense. So we may see them back. I expect the defense to call their own scientific experts, especially in forensics, and I would expect maybe three days, four days of testimony and then it may be in the hands of the jury.
BALDWIN: Martin Savidge for us tonight in Sanford, Jean Casarez, Marc Lamont Hill -- I thank all of you.
And we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: And, of course, we want you to stay with us here on CNN for the latest in the George Zimmerman trial. We'll have complete coverage this coming Monday a the defense continues it's case in Sanford, Florida.
But coming up here on CNN, coming up next, "Boston's Finest", everything is personal
I'm Brooke Baldwin. Have a great night.
