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CNN Live Event/Special
Shutdown Showdown: Deal to End Shutdown Passes in House and Senate
Aired October 16, 2013 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight a CNN special.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lord, we see a faint light at the end of a long, dark tunnel.
TAPPER: They pulled it off.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hopefully, next time it won't be in the 11th hour.
TAPPER: A 16-day staring contest ends.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE (via phone): We fought the good fight. We just didn't win.
TAPPER: House Republicans blink.
JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There are no winners here.
TAPPER: But Tea Party remains unbowed.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: This is a terrible deal today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not over.
TAPPER: And it's not over.
OBAMA: We've got to get out of the habit of governing by crisis.
TAPPER: We're live with Republican Congressmen Aaron Shock and Scott Garrett, one who voted for the deal, one who voted against. On what happens now for the party and the country.
This is "SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: Good evening, everyone. Welcome to this special hour of CNN SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN. I'm Jake Tapper once again live from Capitol Hill.
Attention, furloughed federal workers, veterans, families who rely on WIC to put food on the table, and every American who yearns to see our government leaders working together to get things done.
All of you have reason to breathe a little easier, at least for tonight, at least until January. Literally with minutes to spare until we hit the debt ceiling the House and Senate approved the deal to reopen the government and avert that potential economic crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: On this vote, there are 81 yeas, 18 nays. The bill is reported as passed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: There was nothing surprising about the landslide approval in the Senate, seeing as how Democrats hold the majority there and most Senate Republicans were more than ready to put this whole thing behind them. The real test would be in the House, where there is plenty of resentment within the Republican Party stemming in some cases over how this impasse started and in other cases how it ended.
But before the House could even weigh in on the bill, President Obama made it clear that in his eyes the finish line had already been crossed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Once this agreement arrives on my desk I will sign it immediately. We'll begin reopening our government immediately. And we can begin to let this cloud of uncertainty and unease from our businesses and from the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: We've known for days some of the key points of the agreement, that it would fund the government through mid January and raise the debt ceiling through February 7th. But what you probably have not heard much about are some of the sweeteners tossed in, including one that may have sounded particularly appealing to the Senate GOP leader from Kentucky, Mitch McConnell.
It's being called the Kentucky kickback. And it will put more than $2 billion towards a locks and dam project along the Ohio River in Illinois, and yes, in Kentucky. A Democratic aide insists McConnell did not push for that money, but you can bet for many conservatives the provision has the stink of pork all over it.
And the House 87 Republicans voted to approve the shutdown deal, one of them is Republican Congressman Aaron Schock of Illinois who joins us now. Also with us, of course, my CNN colleagues, chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash and chief political analyst Gloria Borger.
Thank you one and all for being here. So, Congressman, here we are more than two weeks later, $24 billion according to analysts have been taken out of the economy or not fed into the economy because of all this. What did Republicans in the House get for it? And was it worth it?
REP. AARON SCHOCK (R), ILLINOIS: Well, I think what we got is a conference committee. And I think after the president said tonight that the government's going to reopen, that he's going to sign the bill, I hope the next step is he's going to negotiate. Because as we know from last week, he said he's not going to negotiate with a gun to his head. So I and my Democratic colleagues tonight voted to put the weapons away, figuratively speaking.
And I hope genuinely he will be a part of negotiating. Obviously the House will appoint conferees and the Senate will appoint negotiators, and we'll negotiate. But the president really needs to lean in, I think, and be constructive about helping us come up with long-term solutions to our debt.
The shutdown and the debt limit really were about long-term spending. That's what this fight has always been about.
TAPPER: Right.
SCHOCK: And I think the president needs to make good on his campaign pledge, which is he wants to cut the deficit in half under his term.
TAPPER: You represent Peoria, Illinois. I'm sure you're annoyed with journalists asking this question. But how has this --
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: How -- how has this -- how has this played in Peoria?
BASH: Sorry.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He's never been asked before.
TAPPER: I can't believe it's played particularly well.
SCHOCK: You know what, my congressional district has some pretty deep heritage. It's Abe Lincoln's old seat. It's Everett Dirksen's old seat, it's Bob Michael and Ray LaHood's old seat. It's historically represented by Republicans but pragmatic Republicans. At the end of the day --
TAPPER: People who can work across the aisle.
SCHOCK: People expect us to work across the aisle. So --
TAPPER: Your predecessor was in the Obama Cabinet. SCHOCK: Sure. And the predecessor before that was the minority leader under Reagan and helped deliver a lot of important votes working with Democrats across the aisle. And I think the message here really needs to be, we have divided government. And no one is going to get everything that they want. And what I've tried to convince my Republican colleagues tonight is, look at the board. There's a hundred and, you know, 50 Democrats that voted with the speaker, with the majority leader.
And we don't need 150 Democrats. If we have 20 or 30 Democrats, if we have 40 Democrats, we have a governing majority.
BORGER: But why are you --
SCHOCK: And so the sooner we can -- we can reach that reality, I think, the sooner we can -- we can govern and negotiate sooner rather than have to wait after the government shutdown.
BORGER: I hear what you're -- I completely hear what you're saying. And excuse me for being cynical but I'm going to be just a little cynical.
TAPPER: No. Do it. Do it. That's why you're here.
BORGER: I've covered --
(LAUGHTER)
I have covered a lot of this. You know, the super committee after the fiscal cliff.
SCHOCK: Yes.
BORGER: Why should we be any more optimistic today than we were a year ago when the super committee was formed and we were all going to get to a great budget negotiations and curb entitlements and all the rest?
SCHOCK: Well, I think ultimately that's why the conference went to the extremes that it did with the government shutdown, with the eve of the brink of the default, is because there's a growing majority even among the sane caucus.
BASH: Who's sane caucus?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
SCHOCK: I would consider myself one of the --
BORGER: Who's the insane caucus?
SCHOCK: Well, you know, I'm not going to name names.
TAPPER: You can tell us -- SCHOCK: There's a-- you know, there's a small list of those guys. But look, there's a growing number of us that say, look, at end of the day we want to be able to say we've done something to bend the costs curb long term. We're not going to rule anything out. I'm willing to talk to the president about everything that he wants on his wish list.
When our -- when our leadership went to the White House last week it wasn't hey, you got to agree to $1 trillion in cuts or $2 trillion in cuts. We just said we want to talk.
TAPPER: I thought this was about Obamacare.
SCHOCK: It was to negotiate --
TAPPER: I'm sorry. I'm confused.
(LAUGHTER)
Because I really -- I thought this was about Obamacare.
BASH: Not for him.
SCHOCK: You know what, I think when -- when John Boehner and Eric Cantor went down to the White House they didn't say we have to -- we have to touch Obamacare. Obamacare health care is a large component of our spending problem. When you look at Medicare and Medicaid and now the new -- entitlement of Obamacare. But if you don't want to touch Obamacare, fine.
But you're going to have to do something serious on Social Security, on Medicare and Medicaid, if you're going to bend the long- term costs of our federal government. The sequestration clearly is not the solution because it's not the right way to make cuts.
BASH: But you know -- OK. OK. But let's just get real here. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, right? And so the squeaky wheel in this scenario is the -- are the conservatives in your caucus. Just -- your terms, not mine. Just for the record here in the Twitter verse. The same caucus is very quiet. The insane caucus as you would call them are not.
SCHOCK: Yes.
BASH: And my understanding is that in even the private meetings, the caucus meetings that you all have very regularly, they're the ones who get up and talk, they're the one who make the noise. And you guys are a silent majority. So are you going to not be silent anymore?
SCHOCK: I think you're going to see more of us become much more vocal and not be taken for granted when it comes to always counting on our votes. You're right. There are probably 20 or 30 members who are very loud and squeaky, and quite frankly don't vote yes on much. And the sooner that we realize that if you're not going to be a part of being constructive then we really don't want you a part of the conversation. And take the flock of 200 plus, if you will, and work with those who are willing to work with us. And here's what I would say. There are some who would say oh, Aaron, you're not being a true conservative if you're willing to work with Democrats --
BORGER: Oh, Aaron, you're not being a true conservative.
SCHOCK: But here's the reality. Here's the reality. We got to work with Democrats, anyways. News flash, Democrats control the Senate. News flash, Democrats control the White House. News flash, Republicans control the House. Neither party is going to get everything they want. So the sooner that both parties recognize that and recognize that the sooner we can work together we can advance the ball.
Not just on deficit reduction, on immigration reform, on infrastructure investment, all the things we need to do in this country we got to be willing to work together and accept we're not going to get everything we want.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: And with those -- with those news flashes, we thank you very much, Congressman Aaron Schock.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHOCK: Good to be with you.
TAPPER: I appreciate it.
SCHOCK: Thanks.
TAPPER: The compromise bill to reopen the government -- excuse me -- is somewhere en route to President Obama, hopefully making the turn from constitution avenue onto Pennsylvania Avenue soon.
Joining me now is CNN senior White House correspondent Brianna Keilar.
Brianna, you have some new information on when the president will sign this bill and when the government will finally reopen.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake. So according to the director of the Office of Management and Budget, the president should be signing this tonight and employees should expect a return to work in the morning. Now you said the bill may be on its way. I actually know that the bill is not quite on its way here to the White House.
I'm told by the speaker's office that he will be signing it here during this hour. And it's really kind of this I guess you could say somewhat tedious process where the bill has to be enrolled. There's a number of people who kind of have to check it to make sure it's accurate. You have to get the signature of the speaker which should be happening any moment now, the speaker of the longest-serving senator which is Patrick Leahy. So that should be happening soon.
We do know, of course, that President Obama is a bit of a night owl. He frequently stays up until 1:00 a.m. we're told. So, you know, by the time the bill gets here he may not even have retired.
And the bill actually has to physically, Jake, be transported here to the White House. You may have noticed there's a lot of Capitol Hill police officers, Secret Service, who have been working without pay. One officer joked to me that, you know, he is happy to go and physically get this bill and bring it to the White House.
Government workers, I think a lot of them really eager to get back to work. I've seen reports, though, that museums, while they are set to open tomorrow, I've also seen a report that the zoo won't actually reopen until Friday. So I think we'll know that the government is fully up and running maybe when that panda cam is back up.
TAPPER: All right. We'll be watching the panda cam.
Thank you, Brianna.
Joining us now Republican Congressman Peter King of New York. Congressman --
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Jake.
TAPPER: Thanks so much for being here. It was a wild night on the House floor in more ways than one.
KING: Yes.
(VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The House floor stenographer was abruptly hauled out of the chamber after charging the dais and screaming during tonight's late-night vote. What did she yell? Apparently she said, quote, "Do not be deceived. God shall not be mocked. A House divided cannot stand."
Congressman King, you were in the room when this happened. Can you explain who this person was and what she was talking about?
KING: I don't know what she was talking about. I was there when I saw her start screaming. I thought it was somebody telling us we had two minutes to vote or a minute to vote. I thought it was some official person. And that's how she got there. The sergeant-at-arms didn't try to stop her.
TAPPER: Because she works there.
KING: Yes, she works there.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: And it's where she's situated. And she actually went up behind the podium where the president speaks from. They thought she was going to hand something to the speaker. And then realized, and then she was caught up -- and all this happened in about 10 seconds. And -- but I was talking to people afterwards who work with her, said she's a perfectly normal, rational person. And they -- well, she seemed to just lose it tonight.
TAPPER: Obviously a famous historical quote. But still an odd moment.
KING: Yes. Definitely. Yes. Yes.
BASH: In fact -- can I just add? Because I'm sure you've heard this as well. I was talking to a lot of people in the hall just after that happened. I was just off the House floor. Who know her well and say that she's -- you know, that they're shocked by this.
KING: Yes.
BASH: That she's -- she's a well-known person, she's a perfectly nice person, a good colleague.
KING: Right.
BASH: Somebody who's respectable and dependable. And this is very surprising to everybody who works there.
KING: As far as they could tell, she was acting perfectly normal tonight. Yes.
BASH: Exactly.
TAPPER: Let's go back to the more --
KING: Sure.
TAPPER: -- substantive event of this evening.
KING: Yes. Right.
TAPPER: We just heard from your colleague, Congressman Schock of Illinois.
KING: Right.
TAPPER: I suppose he would be considered a moderate as you would be considered a moderate in the current political spectrum we have in the Republican caucus of the House.
KING: Right. I consider myself a Reagan conservative.
TAPPER: I'm old enough to remember when you weren't moderate.
KING: Right. Right.
(LAUGHTER) TAPPER: But I do -- I do wonder, he seemed to be suggesting that there would be more muscle flexing by so-called moderates, that you would be asserting yourselves more against what he referred to, or I guess he didn't call them the insane caucus but he referred to yourselves as the sane caucus.
KING: Right.
TAPPER: By omission perhaps some of these individuals who were pushing the strategy in the last few weeks. Is that true? Can we expect to see moderate Republicans try to exert more influence?
KING: I would hope they'd speak up more. I've been saying this now for three weeks.
TAPPER: Yes.
KING: In fact I was trying to round up votes 16 days ago to get the same resolution we got tonight. No, I've said that. One thing I admire about the Cruz Republicans is they don't care what anybody thinks of them. They do what they have to do. They just get the job done. They're willing to tear the House down if they have to.
And I think we have to do some of that. We have to be willing to say no and vote against rules or do whatever we have to do. Just to let the leadership know that it's not just the Cruz people they have to worry about. There's others who feel very strongly. I think that will get us on an even keel. Otherwise we're going to let 30 or 35 Ted Cruz Republicans to dominate the House.
Now I don't expect everything to go my way by any means. But I would say a solid majority of the conference was against the policies we followed as far as shutting down the government.
BASH: Congressman, you were the only one -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm looking at the votes. All of the little sort of baby bills, mini bills that they were trying to get through.
KING: Right.
TAPPER: The piecemeal bills. Yes.
BASH: Piecemeal bills.
BORGER: Humpty Dumpty.
BASH: That your Republican leadership were trying to get through and the Democrats in the Senate just slapped it back.
KING: Right.
BASH: Or didn't even vote on it. You're the only one to vote against the procedural part of it and actually the substance of it.
KING: Right. BASH: So you were trying to round up all these votes. If this really is a silent majority, why were they so silent? Why were you the only one to sort of put your vote where you mouth is?
KING: Like I said --
BASH: What did they tell you behind the scenes?
KING: I don't consider myself a moderate.
BORGER: Why are you the only consistent politician?
(LAUGHTER)
KING: A lot of moderates are really moderate.
BASH: Right.
KING: I mean, really, moderate even in the way they conduct themselves.
BASH: Right. But why did you have -- even if they're more moderate than you then, I mean, to that point, why did -- why did you have so much trouble getting them to really fight the leadership?
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Basically, in fairness, John Boehner kept telling us things were going to work out. Stick with him awhile longer. I just felt that I was out there. I was going to keep doing what I was doing. But they have great regard for John Boehner. They didn't want to undermine him because they knew that some of those 35 or 40 were trying to undermine John, so they didn't want to add to that. So it was complicated. Real complicated than it seems.
BORGER: Can I ask you a question about --
KING: Sure.
BORGER: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
OK. Never mind.
TAPPER: He's going to do it anyway.
BORGER: Never mind. Republican colleague Paul Ryan, who voted against it. And surprised a lot of people. What do you think that's about?
KING: Well, Paul should speak for himself.
BORGER: Aside from the number.
KING: Yes. Yes, I would say it's because Paul is going to be our main negotiator in the budget talks and he probably wanted to maintain credibility with the Tea Party.
BASH: You believe that? Really? Really?
KING: Well, I'm -- I'm just guessing. I was surprised he voted no.
BASH: You're being pretty nice to a fellow Republican presidential rival.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: There you go. I have a lot of regard for Paul and I'm glad that he is our chief negotiator in there.
BORGER: Were you surprised, though?
KING: So I'm glad you sort of pointed that --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Were you surprised by that, though?
KING: Yes, I was.
BORGER: Yes, because he voted on the fiscal cliff.
KING: And also he --
BORGER: He voted, you know, with John Boehner on the fiscal cliff.
KING: Right.
BORGER: So he didn't go over the fiscal cliff. So this is a bit of a --
KING: And he did write the op-ed in the "Wall Street Journal" that seemed to turn the tide there as far as --
BORGER: I knew I'd get you on -- yes.
KING: Yes. Yes.
BORGER: So --
KING: But again, yes, ask Paul. Paul's smart enough to speak for himself.
TAPPER: So, Congressman, let me ask you.
KING: OK. Yes.
TAPPER: Here we are 16 days later, $24 billion of the economy not there because of what happened with the government shutdown and other things in the last few weeks here. How -- if you could go back in time and convince Republicans to follow your lead, how would you have done this? What would you have done?
Obviously you're concerned about the debt and the deficit as a lot of your colleagues are who are now talking about that --
KING: Right.
TAPPER: -- as if that's what this fight was about to begin with when it wasn't, it was about Obamacare. What would you have said?
KING: What John Boehner and Eric Cantor said they wanted to do, which was to give a continuing resolution --
TAPPER: Just fund the government.
KING: Absolutely. Clean resolution, fund the government before the second week of September and go right to the debt ceiling and negotiate that for four of five weeks. That way the public would have been on our side. They wouldn't have had the specter of -- the fear of the government being shut down. That was sort of a sideshow.
And we could have focused on the debt ceiling with the American people with us as far as -- overwhelming numbers, they said that we should get cuts before we increase the debt ceiling. That would have been really, you know, the best way to focus. And the president would have had to come off the sidelines, hatch to negotiate, because as critical as I have been of some Republicans I think he handled himself -- he was good for the Democratic Party, not good for the country by staying out of the debate so long.
TAPPER: But the president said he was not going to negotiate on the debt ceiling because this is the Republican Party threatening to wreak havoc on the economy.
KING: Right.
TAPPER: What Al Gore saying, you know, nice worldwide economy you have here, be a shame if anything happened to it kind of thing. And like -- so I think the debt ceiling is a more serious issue than the government shutdown potentially.
KING: Much more. Yes.
TAPPER: But you wouldn't have threatened to not raise the debt ceiling. You're just saying you would have been negotiating --
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Well, you have it out there. As a negotiation. You have it out there ultimately the end -- you know, the end fact is that there was going to be a deadline of October 17th but not really threaten to do it, but have it out there as a negotiating point which has worked out pretty well in past going back 30 years as far as negotiations, leading up to the expiration date.
TAPPER: Not a threat, just an opportunity to -- KING: An implied threat. An opportunity. Yes. Whatever it is. But not actually say you're going to shut it down. But it was there. I mean, it's worked in the past. It worked in 2011. Certainly worked with --
TAPPER: Worked in 2011? The stock market went down almost 2,000.
KING: Well, it worked in a sense we got more cuts in the last two years we've had, I guess, since the Korean War. So, I mean, we have -- you know, two consecutive years of cuts. So it worked to that extent.
But again, it can work -- could have worked better this time. And I go back, I guess back to 1980s during the Reagan years where they did have solid negotiations going into the debt ceiling.
BORGER: Congressman --
TAPPER: All right, thank you so much, Congressman.
Sorry, Gloria. We got to take a break here.
BORGER: I just want to ask you about Democrats but we'll talk more.
TAPPER: Dana and Gloria, don't go anywhere.
Coming up, the compromise to fund the government made its way through Congress. We'll talk to one Republican House member who voted no. And we'll ask him if this wasn't really about defunding Obamacare then why did the government shut down?
Stay with us.
Thanks, Congressman.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Welcome back to the special hour of CNN coverage SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN. I'm Jake Tapper live on Capitol Hill.
Breaking this hour, they finally did it. They've made a deal but not before 16 days of legislative wrangling while hundreds of thousands of federal employees were forced to stay home.
Now that Congress has passed a bill to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling, the post mortems can begin and we just need to check. This was all about the president's health care law, right? Right? Well, maybe not.
Here's what Congressman Mick Mulvaney told me earlier on "THE LEAD".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What was this all for?
REP. MICK MULVANEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: It was for equal protection under the law. One of the things that got lost in this, Jake, from the very beginning was that the narrative was that we are trying to get rid of Obamacare, completely defund it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So if this wasn't all about defunding Obamacare, in the immortal words of the Beastie Boys, what's it all about?
Joining us now is Republican Representative from New Jersey, Scott Garrett.
Congressman, thanks for being here.
Also back with us, of course, Dana Bash and Gloria Borger.
So, Congressman, you voted no on this bill.
REP. SCOTT GARRETT (R), NEW JERSEY: I did.
TAPPER: You said you couldn't -- you couldn't vote yes because it doesn't take -- it doesn't take any serious measures to address the debt and the deficit. Is that right?
GARRETT: That's right. As we sit here right now right behind us not with us on camera a bunch of young people and ultimately the --
TAPPER: They're on camera.
GARRETT: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
GARRETT: Good for them.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Ask --
BORGER: Lot of young people.
GARRETT: So ultimately the unfortunate result of the vote tonight is that we are not doing anything to make our government sustainable fiscally, and that they and our kids and our grandkids are going to pay the price. We did not, as your previous guest said, bend the curve whatsoever as far as spending and we are on an unsustainable path.
We are $17 trillion in debt. We're going to add another $1 trillion almost to that when we do - if do out a C.R. And another $2 trillion on top of that because of the Affordable Health Care Act, the Obamacare, on top of that. We are on the path of going to almost -- excuse, 250 percent of GDP right now. A hundred percent of GDP. This is not sustainable. We can't go that way. TAPPER: I take -- I take your point.
GARRETT: OK.
TAPPER: But that wasn't what I heard when people were talking about shutting down the government.
GARRETT: Sure it was.
TAPPER: They were talking about -- no, they're talking about defunding Obamacare, not because of the deficit. Because they think that Obamacare is bad, it's an intrusion into the rights of people. You heard your colleague earlier --
GARRETT: I heard that.
TAPPER: It's about equal rights whether or not the individual mandate should be delayed just as the employer mandate was.
GARRETT: Sure. So as you heard me this say.
TAPPER: Yes.
GARRETT: Part of the Affordable Care Act is saying that we are adding $2 trillion to our budget deficit. That's unsustainable. And so we are making the case that something needed to be done with regard to that and all the entitlements and all of our sending.
What Mick was simply saying is what -- what the law is right now, he was making allusion to is unfair. That President Obama is sitting in the House -- in the White House saying that every American should be subjected to the Obamacare and he's not. And his wife is not. And his kids are not.
BORGER: But --
GARRETT: Yes.
BORGER: So here's the thing. You want to win back the White House, obviously. Because they knew --
GARRETT: That would be good.
TAPPER: Can you help --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Then you'd have a president.
GARRETT: Can you help us do that?
BORGER: Then you presume you have a president who would agree with you on these things. But if you look at the polling --
GARRETT: Yes, the polling said that most --
BORGER: The polling -- the Republicans have tanked in the polls.
GARRETT: What did the -- what did the polling say?
BORGER: Well --
GARRETT: The polling said that they did not want a shutdown and neither did we. And the polling said that majority of Americans right now do not want Obamacare. So that's what the polling says.
BORGER: And the popularity --
GARRETT: And we were on the right side.
BORGER: -- of Republicans went down. The popularity of the Affordable Care Act went up. The popularity of government went up. So it seems to me that you stepped on your own message in a big way.
GARRETT: Part of -- part of the difficulty of course is getting the message out and all -- I think you asked a great question to Senator Harry Reid when --
BASH: Yes, I know you were going to say that.
(LAUGHTER)
GARRETT: When we were doing the aspect of getting the message out that we wanted to keep the government open. We sent out over several dozen bills. You were the only one to ask the question, why are they not passing that bill or any bills? In 16 days of government shutdown the Senate did not move one piece of legislation to keep the government --
BASH: Let me ask --
GARRETT: But that question was never asked of the Senate president or the White House.
BASH: I know that you are very good at math and numbers and you understand --
GARRETT: A little bit. I have a calculator.
BASH: OK. But you understand basic math. And the math is that over there you guys run that place. It's the House.
GARRETT: OK.
BASH: But you don't run the Senate and you don't run the White House.
GARRETT: OK.
BASH: So you knew from the get-go that this was going to be a very tough battle. And it could lead to another government shutdown.
TAPPER: Ended up with a shutdown. (CROSSTALK)
BASH: My --
TAPPER: John Boehner said it would.
BASH: My question is very simple. It's very simple.
TAPPER: Yes. Yes.
BASH: Was it worth it?
GARRETT: It's -- well, the end result was not where we wanted to get to. But as good as I am in math, I'm even as good in knowing what the American people want, according to the poll, and also what our Constitution says. And we were elected by our constituents that we're to say that the House of Representatives where spending bills originate, contrary to what the president was saying during these 16 days, this is where it begins and we have a voice, too.
And that voice was not always articulated very well and that voice always didn't get out through the media when the media didn't ask the questions. There was no follow up question, by the way, to your question. No question ever to the Senate as to, if you really care about the veterans why didn't you move their bill? If you really care about the parks why didn't you move bills?
If you really care about all these other spendings why didn't you move any of the bills?
BORGER: But isn't that --
GARRETT: And I bet you didn't ask that question, you didn't ask that question. No one asked that question.
BASH: OK. Well, let me ask you another question.
GARRETT: Well, it would be really --
BASH: Come on.
GARRETT: Wait, wait, wait. It'd be really neat, instead of the press always asking us, why are the Republicans shutting it down which I heard 1,000 times, I never heard that question. Can you explain to me why that question wasn't asked?
(CROSSTALK)
GARRETT: No, wait, wait, wait. Let me -- no. But let me ask that question. Do you know why the press never asked the Senate president why the other bills weren't moved? You did a great job in asking that one.
BASH: I was going to say, I think that we try very hard to be balanced here.
GARRETT: Great. But why was --
BASH: Asking the Democrats why they were potentially at certain points a part of this.
GARRETT: No, that's --
BASH: But at the end of the day --
BORGER: Answer your own question now.
GARRETT: No, that's not the question.
BASH: No, no. But no, no. But at the end of the day --
GARRETT: Sorry.
BASH: At the end of the day, this was a very deliberate strategy by a small part of the Republican caucus.
GARRETT: No, no, no. How many -- how many Republicans voted on all those bills? Almost 230 Republicans.
BASH: Because -- but you know full well that that wasn't because that that was -- that they supported that. Peter King was against it. He voted for it --
GARRETT: And Aaron Schock voted it. And all the moderates voted for it.
BASH: And they all voted for it because -- because they wanted to support your speaker.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I'm not saying it's right. I'm not defending it.
TAPPER: Hold on. In March House Speaker John Boehner said that they were -- that the Republicans were not going to attach defunding Obamacare to the government spending bill because if they did it would lead to a government shutdown. Then between March and a few weeks ago, the strategy changed.
Everybody knew that that strategy of trying to defund the president's health care initiative would -- the president's health care law would lead to a government shutdown. Yet you pursued the strategy anyway.
You can blame the media all you want. But the facts are what the facts are. John Boehner said that. Not me.
GARRETT: So you make a good point that being consistent in strategy is good. Now the president was consistent in his strategy. He said from day one, I will not negotiate with the --
BASH: That's true.
BORGER: Right.
GARRETT: I will never sit down and talk to them. I will not engage in negotiation. He stuck --
BASH: Over the debt ceiling. Over the debt ceiling.
GARRETT: Over the debt or the C.R.
BASH: Or the government shutdown. Yes, right.
GARRETT: Or the shutdown.
BORGER: But isn't it like --
GARRETT: Maybe it isn't the problem. He would not engage in any discussion with us and so at the end of the day, we -- the House capitulated because he would never engage in negotiations.
BORGER: But isn't this like knocking Humpty Dumpty off the wall?
GARRETT: How's that?
BORGER: And then saying they won't help us put them back together again?
GARRETT: How's that?
BORGER: If you -- if you knocked him off the wall because you had the strategy --
TAPPER: Who stood by the government spending bill. She's talking about the --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: On the government spending bill.
GARRETT: OK.
BORGER: And you had the strategy, and it -- people were up and arms about what was happening in government. The veterans weren't getting funded, et cetera, et cetera.
GARRETT: Right.
BORGER: So you kept putting -- so you're not Humpty Dumpty up the wall, he broke into a million pieces. And you said, OK, you had this strategy and people were up in let's refund this. Let's refund that. Let's put them back together. Why should they help you if they feel that you caused it?
GARRETT: Right.
BORGER: Right?
GARRETT: So in other words if they realize that the veterans are hurting, and if they realize that the public is hurting with the parks, and if they realize, to your question, that kids aren't being treated for cancer --
BORGER: They would say open the government.
GARRETT: They would say we have an opportunity to fix the problems if we work with you. But what did they say? No, we're not going to work with you.
BORGER: Pass a clean bill. That's what they said.
GARRETT: No. They simply said it's their way or the highway. That they were not willing. There -- I was astounded, I must admit, when I think it was Eric Cantor came up with this idea, these mini bills. I was really shocked that we would put up a veterans bill to fund the veterans and the Democrats wouldn't support them.
I said, how can any -- how can any member of Congress of our Republican or Democrat go back to their district and say, I voted against funding helping the Democrats -- helping the veterans? But they did. For purely partisan ideological reasons, they would not vote for a bill to do that. And once again I go back to it, I know you don't want to hear it. And the press never once asked them why not.
TAPPER: Well, I think you can go back. You can see I asked Chris Van Hollen why they didn't support it on our show about a week ago. But I appreciate it. And I appreciate your being here, Congressman Garrett.
GARRETT: Appreciate it.
TAPPER: From the garden state of New Jersey.
GARRETT: Thanks a lot.
TAPPER: Have fun back in the garden state.
GARRETT: OK.
TAPPER: Dana and Gloria, of course, stick around.
Coming up after a 16-day political meltdown how damaged are the parties now, both Democrat and Republican, and which leaders are going to manage to limp away to fight another day?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: There are battle scars aplenty after this latest political fight. Who may have the hardest time stopping the bleeding now that the deal's done? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Welcome back to SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN.
No one really got what they wanted today but hey, we still avoided a national disaster, right? Both sides are now stepping back to assess the damage. On the one hand, Democrats held firm on their refusal to alter Obamacare. But now they're stuck with all its problems. Republicans, from Speaker John Boehner on down, are already claiming they did all they could to defund it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: We've been locked in a fight over here trying to bring government down to size, trying to do our best to stop Obamacare. We fought the good fight. We just didn't win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What does it mean for both parties tonight and down the line?
Let's bring in one of the hosts on the left from CNN's "CROSSFIRE" Van Jones and Republican strategist Kevin Madden, and of course, Dana and Gloria also join us.
Gentlemen, Kevin, I'll start with you. Then Van.
Does anyone leave this mess with their reputation or their position in this town enhanced at all?
KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I don't think there are any winners here. I mean, I think Washington as an entity, particularly in the minds of voters, was a loser here. And you already had folks in Congress and even president, very low approval ratings, only got lower.
This was like tying a brick to a cinder block. It all went down. It just went down -- one brick went down slower than the cinder block.
TAPPER: Van?
VAN JONES, CNN CROSSFIRE HOST: No, I see it slightly differently. I think the president, his strategy was vindicated 100 percent. He said he was not going to negotiate with the crazy wing of the Republican Party. He did not. And as a result, I think he created more space for the moderates in the Republican Party to step forward and to save the day.
I think his strategy was vindicated. And I think that, as you move forward now, what you're going to see is more strength from the moderates in both parties to be able to actually govern here. I think the president had to break the fever and he did.
MADDEN: Just a quick -- just real quick to disagree with that.
TAPPER: Yes. MADDEN: The president's brand, the president's promise to the American public when he ran for office was that he's going to be able to bring Washington together. Washington has never been a more partisan, poisonous atmosphere. The lack of trust right now is so high. And it really has hurt people's ability to get things done right now.
BORGER: And that's just in the Republican Party.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: Boom.
MADDEN: You know -- you know --
BORGER: Sorry.
MADDEN: But I mean, I think -- I mean, you're seeing trust not only between the leaders up on Capitol Hill but even trust of the institution of Congress with the White House. It's at a very, very low level right now.
BORGER: Sure.
MADDEN: And we have very big challenges. And we need that trust to be at a very high level in order to get things done. I think that's been a problem.
BASH: I got to know you when you were working for John Boehner.
MADDEN: Right.
BASH: You know him well. I won't put you on the spot and have you do the imitation which is lost.
TAPPER: You do a good Boehner?
MADDEN: I do it dead on.
BASH: It's pretty --
BORGER: Come on. Can you do a little --
MADDEN: I need a cigarette.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: But no, seriously, how much of this has been about Boehner the man and his decisions that he's made along the way over these three weeks? Take us inside the Boehner brand.
MADDEN: Well, the one thing that you have to remember about John Boehner is, first of all, he has a great deal of respect for the institution. Secondly, he's a team player. He tries to bring everybody together. That's something that I think has been an important goal for him over these last two weeks. If he had not pursued the course he did, and it was not a course that he wanted, then he would have had a much more fractured -- he would have had a much more fractured conference right now.
I think his stock has actually risen within -- within the GOP. The question is now, does he have enough political capital and is he willing to spend it to stare down this 30 or 40 inside the Tea Party.
BASH: What's the answer?
MADDEN: I don't know yet. And I don't think anybody knows yet.
TAPPER: Van, President Obama obviously a lot of Democrats really rallied to him, Democrats in the House and Senate stuck with him. It was basically one coherent message as opposed to the Republicans. I wonder now if you think he feels emboldened.
There are a lot of House Republicans who were not happy when President Obama came out this evening, gave remarks before the House had even voted. They thought it could possibly jeopardize what -- already seemed shaky, shall we say.
Where is President Obama now?
JONES: You know, I think people are going to be surprised. They may be asleep.
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: Right. At least napping.
JONES: But I think people will be -- President Obama wants to do this grand bargain. He's been trying to do this grand bargain for a long time. In fact the Democrats who are now lining up with him, to Gloria's point, many of us are going to be fighting him very quickly saying, don't give away so much on Social Security and Medicare. But let --
BORGER: You are?
JONES: Yes, of course we are. But let me tell you why we stood with him. You say that he came here to be a uniter, and it's become a divisive town. It is painful for Democrats because we remember when he came here and the day he was being inaugurated, Republican leaders met and said we're going to oppose him on everything. Not just the bad things, but on everything.
We remember when you had -- let me finish. Let me finish. When you had "you lie" screamed at him from the floor of the Congress. We remember when in the stimulus bill he gave a third of the stimulus away in tax cuts trying to get Republicans and didn't get one vote.
We remember when in his health care bill he told us no, and went with Romneycare, a Republican bill, and got no Republican support. BORGER: I --
JONES: We remember all the things that he did.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: I agree with you.
JONES: We remember all the things he did.
MADDEN: We went down to the Williamsburg retreat in Virginia early on in his term. Only about three weeks in his term and he attacked Republicans who disagreed with him.
JONES: That's not true. That's not true.
MADDEN: Substantively on the stimulus bill.
JONES: So this -- but here's where the division come from and here's where the healing has to happen. It is easy in this town, it's become just the common thing in this town to say that President Obama did not deliver on the unity message. But people do not take responsibility for the fact that from the very beginning there was a Republican strategy, a strategy to oppose him on everything in the middle of two wars and the great depression and that's wrong.
BORGER: You know, here's the thing.
MADDEN: And one of the --
BORGER: Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I think we're so used to going throughout the highs and the lows in Washington. The question I have is, why can't people just go to work every day and get things done?
JONES: Well, I was --
BORGER: That's what most of us do in our job.
JONES: And that's what this president tried to do for five years. And this time he finally said no to the bullying.
BORGER: But we --
JONES: And he won and we're glad about it.
BORGER: But -- you know, look, the president is not without blame here. You know a lot of Democrats who say, we don't get to talk to him, much less Republicans who say they don't get to talk to him.
MADDEN: Yes, he has either strained or no relationships with even many Democrats on Capitol Hill.
BORGER: So here's the thing on -- I'm talking about the even keel. Just have relationships with people. Just work with people. And it doesn't have to be either all or nothing. Either it's the charm offensive and he takes everyone out to dinner in a period of two weeks or it's nothing.
JONES: Let me tell you what Democrats are in trouble.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I'll tell you where Democrats are going to be in trouble. We have had a situation where we have won because of the Republican overreach over and over again. And that becomes a dangerous thing for to us get used to.
TAPPER: All right. We're going to -- hold that thought. We're not going anywhere. Stay with us, everybody, here.
Coming up, if you're a furloughed government employee, set your alarm. Tomorrow is officially a work day. But how much work can we actually get done now on Capitol Hill after this long brutal battle?
Stay with us. We're all going to be here when you come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Welcome back to SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN. So did you notice the lower corner of your screen? There's no more shutdown or debt ceiling clock. Congress has come to the rescue. Hooray. Washington is moving on. And a new senator will be moving in soon as of tonight. Newark's Democratic Mayor Cory Booker is now the senator-elect from New Jersey.
President Obama is going to be making a statement at 10:35 Eastern tomorrow morning. He seems to have a to-do list in his pocket already.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I've got some thoughts about how we can move forward in the remainder of the year, stay focused on the job at hand. Because there's a lot of work ahead of us, including our need to earn back the trust of the American people that's been lost over the last few weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Let's get our panel's thoughts now about D.C.'s to-do list. How do Congress and the president pull themselves out of the muck and specifically, Van Jones, Kevin Madden, Dana Bash and Gloria Borger, we were talking during the break about this deficit of trust in this town and how can we move on.
President Obama and Harry Reid were already talking about starting immigration reform. How is that even possible?
BASH: I just thought -- right. I just thought one of the most telling moments was -- we talked about a little bit before which is that the president decided to come out before the House voted. And we were hearing from House Republican leadership aides like come on, are you kidding me? You're going to really do this beforehand? Because they were worried that that was going to mess up the vote. Now, to be fair, when the president came out he was very conciliatory.
TAPPER: Totally gracious.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: But let me just make my point. My point is that, he was gracious. But people -- even people -- they're not hearing each other. They're not listening to each other. It's the Republicans think that he has a political tin ear because he -- of the timing when he comes up, which, you know, you can argue that point.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: On the other hand when he doesn't come out --
BASH: On the other hand --
TAPPER: -- people saying he's AWOL. Yes.
BASH: When he did come out he was conciliatory. So if that's the position where we're in where they're really not even hearing each other anymore, and there is such a trust deficit, how are we going to get things done? Tough things like immigration?
MADDEN: It's an extremely great challenge. There are a number of Republicans up on Capitol Hill who will not vote for anything that they know this president will sign. For the simple fact that they saw everything else that he's promoted and had not sign a law has been such a disaster. The stimulus. Health care.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: They don't want to get primaried.
MADDEN: No, but that is true. They really do -- the other thing is, during the -- when the president decided to delay the employer mandate on the health care bill, that sent a chilling message to so many Republicans, which is even when he signs a bill, agrees to a bill, he actually decides what parts of it he wants to enforce.
BORGER: But why did he make -- why did he --
MADDEN: Would he -- so on an issue like immigration reform, that caused a lot of people to say, I'm not agreeing to anything that this president wants.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Yes, but you can make --
TAPPER: Because he might --
MADDEN: Because he may decide that I'm not even going to enforce the -- I'm not going to enforce the enforcement provisions of it. BORGER: OK. But let's put all the concerns about enforcement aside.
MADDEN: So it's very --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I'm not laughing at --
BORGER: OK. But let's put all of that aside. Wouldn't you argue as a Republican that it is in the Republicans' self-interest if they want to get somebody in the White House to do something on immigration reform?
MADDEN: Oh, it is. There's no doubt.
BORGER: OK. So --
MADDEN: And I think -- I think as a political strategy there's a very real possibility that the president and his party may be laying bait on an issue like this that again would be divisive for us.
JONES: I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. Well, first of all, no matter what this president does Republicans are going to criticize it. When he's not visible they say he's AWOL. He's not -- and then when he steps forward well, he's chest thumping.
MADDEN: Well, he's never been consistent. That's why.
JONES: Well, I mean, we can argue about that later. But here's where I think Democrats have to be very careful. I think Democrats are feeling very good tonight. We live in different worlds. We look at different facts. Democrats look at the times that Obama has reached out and it has not worked out well for him.
And that -- and we hold that dearly. You look at the times that he hasn't. And I understand it. We look at things differently. But here's where we are. Democrats right now feel very good. We feel like we stood up to the bullies. We felt like listen, even if you have legitimate concerns, if you a neighborhood association, somebody shows up with legitimate concern, would they say, if you don't listen to me, I'm going to burn down the neighborhood?
You can't listen to their concerns until you deal with the behavior. So that's how we interpret it. But now here's our danger. We keep winning because of overreach from our opponents. We almost lost the Senate and then somebody starts praising rape and then suddenly we get the Senate back.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Don't talk about overreaching your own party.
JONES: No. No --
TAPPER: They did not exactly praise rape. Just for the record. JONES: Just for the record.
BORGER: Wait a minute.
JONES: But --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: It was a lot of stupid remark by a Republican Senate candidate.
JONES: I'm saying -- I'm saying that the Republicans will tend to overreach. And then we benefit from that and think we're winning. This is not winning. Look at what happened just now. Follow me now. Had the Republicans not overreached and shut down the government we would have been hung out to dry on Obamacare because of all the glitches and all the problems.
We were saved from that because of Republican overreach. We almost lost the Senate because Republicans made mistakes.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: So you're saying Democrats --
JONES: And now -- and now -- and we think we're a genius --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: And we're not. And now watch what's going to happen on immigration. Here we go. To your point I'm agreeing with you.
MADDEN: Right. Right. I mean we've never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
(LAUGHTER)
We took the issue that we all agree where we disagreed with President Obama, Obamacare, and we found a way to -- we found a way to have it turn us in battle on us.
BORGER: And united Democrats.
JONES: In a way we have never been united.
BORGER: Unbelievable.
BASH: That's true.
JONES: So --
BORGER: Unanimous vote.
MADDEN: The Republican Party has always flourished when it's been a party of two things, ideas and reform. Our reform right now is what we disagree with on Obamacare. But we haven't done enough to talk about what we're for on health care. What we're for as far as, you know, more patient-centered care.
And then we have to get back to a generating ideas on what -- again, what the party believes in rather than defining ourselves by what we're against.
TAPPER: We only have 30 seconds left. But Van, what's your concern about immigration reform? Democrats are just going to give a bill that has no appeal to Republicans at all?
JONES: No. What I'm saying is that what's likely to happen is that the Republicans are going to shoot themselves in the face, arm, neck and leg over immigration and we're going to say, look what a great party we are but we won't have solved the problem. And we cannot continue to fail solving problems and benefiting because Republicans are worse than we are.
TAPPER: All right. Stay with us. There's one big battle behind us but make no mistake about is, the war rages on. So what happens when we face round of budget talks with the concept of bipartisanship seemingly on life support. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Welcome back to SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN live from Capitol Hill.
It took two parties coming together in the Senate to get a deal done. The question now, was too much damage done leading up to that magic moment to avoid another hyperpartisan showdown in just a few weeks?
Our political panel is back with me for some final thoughts. Van?
JONES: You know, I actually think that the moderates in the Republican Party have been strengthened. And I think that's good for the country. I think the -- I think that Obama will be able to negotiate probably better with the moderates in the Republican Party than some of the progressives in his own party. And that's going to be a very interesting dynamic.
MADDEN: I think you can celebrate tonight. Celebrate maybe a little bit tomorrow. Crisis to crisis management star again the next. We're going to see this all the way through. All we did was punt this for another few weeks.
TAPPER: And the government shutdown we know is over now but the government is only funded through January and the debt ceiling is only raised to February.
MADDEN: That's right.
TAPPER: So we could very well be back here --
MADDEN: Right back at the --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: With winter coats doing the -- doing the same show.
MADDEN: Not a lot of attitudes are going to simmer down.
BASH: Yes.
MADDEN: It's only going to -- I think feelings are still pretty raw.
BASH: To that point -- right. And to that point I want to be an optimist but I'm just going to quote what Lindsey Graham said to me earlier, which is, I said look, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. He said no, that's a train coming at you.
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: Brianna Keilar said to President Obama, are we going to be back here in a few months, and he said, no.
BORGER: That's why --
MADDEN: It's the only answer he could give.
BORGER: We could only call this the season finale of SHUTDOWN SHOWDOWN but we cannot call it the end of the series.
TAPPER: It's not the series finale.
BASH: No.
BORGER: No. It's not the series.
TAPPER: It's --
MADDEN: It's end of season one.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: End of season one, I think. Anyway it's been a lot of fun, right?
BASH: It's a cliffhanger. How is it going to end?
BORGER: Total. We don't know.
TAPPER: I don't think they'll do a government shutdown again but I think it's going to be some tough negotiations.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: No. In fact --
MADDEN: And a lot of people -- a lot of the folks up in House leadership will tell you that. That -- you know, they thought that they would touch the stove early on when the -- when they first shut down, but now they really think they have touched the stove.
TAPPER: Van, Kevin, Dana, Gloria, thank you so much. We're still awaiting the bill to make its way to the White House from the Capitol. What you're looking at right now is the White House driveway where the compromise will travel up and hopefully hit the president's resolute desk where he will sign it, what will now be early Thursday morning.
Piers Morgan will continue to bring you live coverage as the bill officially becomes a law. So don't go anywhere.
Van, Kevin, Dana, Gloria, thanks for joining us tonight.
And for all of you out there, be sure to check out "THE LEAD", weekdays at 4:00 p.m. Eastern, 1:00 p.m. Pacific. For now I'm Jake Tapper. Have a good night.
"PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts right now.
