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Brexit Vote Fails; Mays Faces No Confidence Vote, Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired January 16, 2019 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICHARD QUEST, HOST, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: An early warm welcome on a cold evening to CNN Special Coverage of the turmoil in the British Parliament. I'm Richard Quest.

HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: And I'm Hala Gorani. We're live outside the Houses of Parliament, once again this evening as the prime minister's government is about to face a vote of no confidence.

QUEST: And it only seems like yesterday --

GORANI: That's because it was yesterday.

QUEST: -- that we were sitting here to claim the state of British politics. And if you think it couldn't get any worse from last night, well, it did.

The British prime minister's political career could be over. It's certainly in the balance tonight. We're counting down the minutes before a vote of no confidence in Theresa May's government.

GORANI: Lawmakers have spent the day debating this, they're set to cast their ballots at the top of the hour. So, in about 30 minutes time, this comes after a crushing and humiliating defeat that we covered yesterday evening of Mrs. May's Brexit deal, the one she spent two years crafting with negotiators in Brussels. And as we were reporting with Richard yesterday, she lost that by a historic margin of 230 votes.

But she is expected though this evening if all those according to what we've been hearing to survived this.

[13:30:09] QUEST: Right. Yes. This is -- before we jump in deep and dark, what have you made of the day as it's going on? And we've heard everything from the morning radio programs to now, everybody's trying to understand what happened last night.

GORANI: Well, I think obviously the magnitude of the defeat has been made clear. People have been able to digest just how much of a blow this was to Mrs. May. But at the same time, her party won't abandon her. Even the DUP will not abandon her. This is the Northern Ireland Unionist Party.

So she's expected to survive this. But in what shape was she emerged from this wounded. Again, wounded again. QUEST: We need to discuss this. Because frankly, the country is -- I've got the Evening Standard which is London's evening newspaper which would seem just lying on the floor. Well, look, after last night's bruising defeat, the Prime Minister addressed members of parliament during PM Qs, Prime Minister's questions. She made a case against a general election. She urged MPs to stick with her and her government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAY: Last night, the House rejected the deal the government has negotiated with the European Union. Today, it is asked a simpler question. Should the next step be a general election? I believe that is the worst thing we could do. It would deepen division when we need unity. It would bring chaos when we need certainty. And it would bring delay when we need to move forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, we're covering this vote and the fallout from all angles this evening. Let's bring in Political Analyst Carole Walker and CNN's Bianca Nobilo.

Carole, let me start with you. So she's expected, Theresa May, to survive this evening. But what happens after she's able to make it through this last challenge?

CAROLE WALKER, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that is the big question. And what has been extraordinary today is that Theresa May who as you mentioned went down to the worst ever political defeat of a government in the United Kingdom, appeared, emerged, stopped the dispatch box, answered questions from MPs as though nothing had happened.

We heard her defending her deal as though it hasn't already gone down to that shattering defeat. We heard her defending her red line saying that she wasn't going to go into a customs union with the European Union, that she was not going to extend Article 50 to give herself more time.

She said that she wanted to reach out to other parliamentarians but then the leader of the opposition Jeremy Corbyn confirmed there have been absolutely no approach to talks and she's already ruled out the basis on which they might have been able to find some consensus. So exactly what she does come up with on Monday when she has to come back with her response to that shattering defeat, it's very very difficult to see.

QUEST: We also have with us our Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson who's in Downing Street, Erin McLaughlin is at E.U. headquarters in Brussels. So we can -- we will be tapping into what they have to say. Stay with us.

Let's go to Nic Robertson first. Nic, when the Prime Minister comes to the House tonight for that vote, she is, as Carole Walker was saying, she's laid out a lot of things that she's not and won't do. But do we know what she will do? NIC ROBERTSON, INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: You know I do think that the speculation of the moment certainly seems to imply. And I say speculation because we don't know, seems to imply the read that people get from her.

Listening to what Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, who spoke to her by phone last night recalled this morning of that conversation. She had the impression that Theresa May was sort of going to stick to her guns with the deal that she has in the works and try to eke out a little more and tweak out a little more and find a way to make it palatable and reach across party lines.

She said as though she doesn't seem to be reaching out. And Jeremy Corbyn speaking today and asked about it, hasn't spoken out, hasn't called her. So hasn't -- Theresa May haven't called Jeremy Corbyn rather. So you know, it does seem the impression created at the moment is that she is continuing on the track that she was on.

But she typically has played this so close to her chest all along. It's hard to get an estimation of that but the message that's been coming -- Erin can tell you more about this. But the [13:35:00] message has been coming loud and clear from Europe.

The Irish prime minister today in Dublin said it. Britain created this situation. It's set its red lines two years ago. Tomorrow, it will be their turn Lancaster House Theresa May ruled out Britain remaining in the Customs Union, said Britain would be leaving the single market.

These are the red lines the European Union is now looking, wondering, saying as their Irish prime minister said today if there's some give on her side on that, there could be some give on the European Union side. But there's no indication and she's given that, the risk given that. So we come back to that. The best estimation seems to be that she's continuing on the track she was on yesterday.

GORANI: Nic Robertson at 10 Downing Street. Just a reminder for our viewers, if some of you are just joining us, we are counting down to a crucial vote of no-confidence in the government of Theresa May. Theresa May who suffered that crushing blow yesterday, her Brexit deal roundly and soundly defeated.

Richard, I think we can go to Erin McLaughlin who is in Brussels. So what -- I mean you leaders must know at this point that there's really not much they can do to salvage Theresa May's efforts here.

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's right. The question they're asking is what specifically they could they possibly do, given the current situation to move over 200 votes there in Westminster. I was just on the phone with the senior E.U. official who told me he believes that the issue here goes beyond that Northern Ireland backstop solution that's been so controversial.

He pointed to the vote interestingly on the Baron amendment that happened prior to the vote on the deal itself. The Baron amendment was defeated. Only 24 MPs voted for that amendment and what that amendment would have effectively done is instructed Theresa May to go back to Brussels to push for more on the backstop.

Six hundred MPs voted against that. This senior E.U. official telling me that if the backstop was the problem, that would have resulted differently. So from the eyes of the E.U., there's very little they can do at this point, except watch and wait to see what Theresa May comes forward with on Monday. The hope is, is that she reaches across party and comes up with some sort of consensus but there are doubts about her ability to do that.

GORANI: OK. Wow. Erin, thanks very much. Nic Robertson and Richard, the hope from the E.U. is that Theresa May will reach out across the aisle in the U.S., across party lines here. But based on what you're hearing, that has not happened.

WALKER: It hasn't happened yet. There does appear to be a plan for Theresa May's effective deputy David Lidington to try to reach out perhaps not to the Labour leadership but to other Labour MPs who might be prepared to try to work with the government.

And it appears that what she might try to do is come back with some kind of very broad statement on Monday. She has accepted that whatever she proposes on Monday is amendable. So it's open to other groups of MPs to then come forward with their own proposals and to see which one of those then come on support across the House.

BIANCA NOBILO, CORRESPONDENT: But let's look first at the immediate threat that the Prime Minister faces. I mean his is a vote of no- confidence in her government and she's (INAUDIBLE) with that. And yes, it has implications for her Brexit deal.

But it's interesting to think about the law of unintended consequences because today, what you've seen is MPs who have not supported the Prime Minister in well over a year, getting behind her. And this has become more like a debate in a general election campaign than a debate over Brexit. It's very broad and the mood here is unusual because people are just expecting her to sell through this.

QUEST: Right. So to help us understand tonight, do you think -- forget the vote of no-confidence. She's going to win it. Tonight, do you think we are closer in Britain to a general election or a second referendum or neither?

WALKER: At this stage --

QUEST: Yes.

WALKER: -- I would say neither because I think that the Conservative MPs and DUP want to avoid a general election because they do not want a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn which is a big risk if there was a general election.

And they do not want a second referendum because to have a second referendum, you've got to have a government that's prepared to get the legislation through the House, to have months and months of argument about what the question is going to be, to have that verified, to then have a referendum campaign which would be very very divisive, which would be very very tight.

And even if Lee were to win again, you still wouldn't have decided what the basis of the departure from the European Union will be.

QUEST: Do you agree?

NOBILO: Yes. I add to that the fact that not only is the policy of Jeremy Corbyn being an avowed [13:40:00] democratic socialist strike fear into the hearts of Conservative Brexiteers. So they'll do anything they can to stop it. Labour also don't really want this.

QUEST: So we need an election or --

NOBILO: I agree with Carole. I think right now neither is a particularly likely option. And even when we look at the second referendum, there's momentum building but MPs and the public according to comprehensive polling, the support remains, still apprehensive about the notion of what it would do to democracy if there was to be a second referendum.

WALKER: But it would also, of course, mean having to delay Brexit significantly by maybe five or six months.

GORANI: Yes. So not an extension of the negotiation period, negotiating period. Oops, there's water falling on us. Is that a likely outcome? Because if it's neither a general election nor a second referendum and there's no deal on the table that will, you know, pass parliament or be supported by a majority of MPs, where does that leave us?

WALKER: I think the best hope in Downing Street at the moment is this process which I described where you get starting next week different groups, parliamentarians proposing their own frameworks that you could find out where the consensus lies that you could try to shape a new approach. If you can then get an agreement with the E.U., you'll then, yes, running out of time to get the legislation through maybe a short delay to Article 50.

QUEST: Right.

WALKER: All of this -- all of those hopes are based on the expectations. You can find the consensus that's been sorely lacking so far.

QUEST: All right. And Parliament at the moment, in the House, on the floor, the deputy leader of the Labour Party Tom Watson is speaking which somewhat suggests that this debate is coming to a close. There's the Prime Minister sitting there. And does the Prime Minister finish off by saying -- does she have the last word tonight or it just go straight to a vote?

NOBILO: I'm not sure if there are closing arguments here from Jeremy Corbyn, Theresa May. Again, we can check. We are expecting the votes --

QUEST: I beg your pardon. It is Tom Watson who's winding up for the opposition at the moment.

NOBILO: Yes.

QUEST: We'll have more in a moment as we continue tonight. The vote is scheduled at 7:00.

GORANI: That's in less than 20 minutes' time and we will be covering that. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back on the other side with a lot more of our special breaking coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Now, Theresa May's government facing a vote of no-confidence in the next half hour, the political future is unclear (INAUDIBLE) to vote. The opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn is using it to push for a general election accusing the PM's administration of being unable to govern.

GORANI: Right. He also has used the opportunity earlier to stick the knife in the government chiding Mrs. May over crashing defeat [13:45:00] last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEREMY CORBYN, BRITISH LABOUR PARTY LEADER: May I stop by correcting the record? Last night, I suggested this was the largest government defeat since the 1920s. I would not wish to be accused of misstating the House because I've been informed that is, in fact, the largest ever defeat for a government in the history of our democracy.

This government has failed our country. It cannot govern, cannot command the support of most people facing the most important issue at the moment which is Brexit. They failed again and lost the vote last night.

Isn't it the case, Mr. Speaker, that with every other previous prime minister faced with a scale of defeat last night, they would have resigned and the country would be able to choose the government that they want?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, with Corbyn using Prime Minister May's defeat as a potential opportunity to seize power, pushing for a general election, the question remains how would he solve the problem of Brexit? And that is the biggest problem. No one really knows, almost all of his Labour MPs voted against May's deal last night and many of them believe a second referendum is now the best option.

But then Richard, there's the issue of being focused on a general election. Is the second Brexit vote even a real possibility? Which is it going to be? What road will we travel down? We don't know.

QUEST: I do know what our next guest believes. Hugo Dixon is the deputy chair of the People's Vote and cut the campaign group calling for a second Brexit vote. Bianca is also with us. Hugo, good to see you.

HUGO DIXON, DEPUTY CHAIR, PEOPLE'S VOTE: Hello. Nice to see you, Richard.

QUEST: Look, the core question first is how do you get to your second vote from there?

DIXON: Well, I think what we're seeing this evening and very -- any minute now, this vote of no-confidence is the next milestone. Because as we know, the Labour Party has said it first needed to defeat the deal which happened yesterday, then needs to try to get a general election.

And only if it fails to get a general election, and we think it will fail to get a general election, will it then campaign for other alternatives including a People's Vote, a new referendum. So we don't expect this election to happen. But it is important before they have a chance, Labour will not come around to supporting our program, our cause for a new referendum.

But also, if Labour does back it, at that point we will have we think a majority in the House of Commons in favor of that new referendum.

GORANI: Let me ask you --

DIXON: So that's the pathway we get there, Richard.

GORANI: Let me ask you, Hugo. What would the question be in a second referendum?

DIXON: Well, certainly staying in the E.U. has to be on the ballot paper.

GORANI: So reversing the results of 2016?

DIXON: Yes. It has to be on the ballot paper because this is both the most popular choice in the country and in the national interest frankly. Secondly, a form of Brexit, any form of Brexit, it has to be specific and deliverable.

We cannot have any more fantasies. You know, we had too much fantasy. Three years ago, there was fantasy. So if there is the form of Brexit on the ballot paper, it has to be specific and deliverable. And at the moment, the only specific one is actually the one that was defeated yesterday.

GORANI: Right.

QUEST: Bianca, listening and you watch closely these matters, is it realistic what Hugo is suggesting?

NOBILO: I think people are beginning to come around to this idea that because it was direct democracy that got us into this problem and it's the conflict with representative democracy, i.e., there is a majority in the House full remain, that perhaps it's only direct democracy that will be able to get us out of this.

Now, a question I have for you is some MPs I've heard talking in the House of Commons in the last few days, I've been discussing maybe a referendum of Britain's experience, Brexit for a little bit. I mean what do you have to say to that?

DIXON: Well, I don't think it's a very good idea because -- I mean you still got to figure out what sort of Brexit we're going to get before you can experience it for a little bit. And it's -- the government doesn't know what it's going to do. Frankly, even the opposition doesn't have -- it doesn't have a credible Brexit plan. There is no credible Brexit plan that can get anything close to a majority in the House of Commons.

And so what we need to do is put this sort of people -- because two- and-a-half years ago --

QUEST: But Labour doesn't particularly -- well, the Labour leader doesn't want a referendum.

DIXON: The Labour leader is not yet supporting a referendum, that's true. It's not clear that he's opposed to a referendum. But what we do know is that the vast majority of Labour supporters in the country, Labour members of the party, and also an increasing number of Labour MPs -- today, we had 70 Labour MPs [13:50:00] coming out and saying out there, in front of parliament, saying we want a People's Vote.

So it will soon be the case we think that the leader of the opposition will have no other credible option but to support a new referendum.

GORANI: Hugo, is it realistic in terms of timing here? Because you can't organize a referendum overnight. The clock is ticking. It's been trying to model your country will leave the E.U. on March 29th.

DIXON: Yes. We will have to delay. There's no doubt. There will have to be a delay. We'll have to delay, change U.K. law and ask the E.U. for more time. But if you saw what Donald Tusk, that president of the European Council, tweeted last night, he implied heavily that he would welcome that.

QUEST: Right. Let's just pause for a moment. The debate on the motion is wrapping up. Michael Gove, the environment secretary is closing for the government.

MICHAEL GOVE, ENVIRONMENT SECRETARY: It takes courage and he has it. Having been elected on a Labour mandate representing working class people to say that the leader of the party that you joined as a boy is not fit to be prime minister. He speaks for the country.

And that takes us to the speech from the Shadow Secretary of State. He spoke well. He spoke well. I thought he did not rise to the level of events. But one thing that was characteristic about his speech, he did not once mention in his speech the Leader of the Opposition or why he should be Prime Minister.

Now, I have a lot of time for the honorable member. We have several things in common. He's lost weight recently. Sorry, we both lost weight recently I should say. Him, much more so. We're both friends of Israel. Him, much more so. And we both recognize that the Member for Islington North is about the worst possible person to lead the Labour Party. Him, much more so.

As well as great speeches from the backbenches, we also have some interesting speeches from the frontbenchers. We had a speech of over 20 minutes from my great friend, the leader of the Scottish National Party in this place. But again in those 20 minutes, he did not once mention the Common Fisheries Policy.

I think everyone in Scotland who recognizes the potential to free ourselves from the Common Fisheries Policy which Brexit provides -

QUEST: We'll leave Michael Gove for the moment. It is eight minutes to 7:00 in London as the vote is scheduled at 7:00. So we'll have a result by that 7:15, 7:20.

GORANI: We can get the European perspective now. Our next guest is Marietje Schaake. She's a Dutch member of the European Parliament. She's in Strasbourg, France.

You're with Richard Quest and Hala Gorani here at Westminster, Marietje. What are your hopes now? I know you're very much in favor of the U.K. remaining, finding a way to remain in the E.U. How do you -- from your vantage point, how does the country get there?

MARIETJE SCHAAKE: Well, it's up to the British people and now up to the British Parliament to come up with some options. But it more and more feels like this is a process that's turned upside down. I mean with such a big decision as a vote on Brexit, these are the kinds of decisions and the kinds of debates that politicians that feel responsible for the future of the country should have had before putting such a huge decision before the people.

But now that we are where we are, I think it is clear that the withdrawal agreement has been negotiated a lot of time, has gone into a -- 27 governments agree on what is at the table. But, of course, if there is a way to, you know, to find solutions for the U.K. that are necessary, I think everybody's been open but not without a concrete idea of what for example an extension of the Article 5 period would look like.

QUEST: But the problem is -- look, this has been a negotiation between two parties, the British government, and the E.U. If the British side cannot get what was agreed by Parliament, well, you haven't got an agreement. So why will the E.U. -- why are you so stubbornly refusing to revisit it if the other side to that agreement says it can't stand?

SCHAAKE: Well, hold on just a minute. The agreement is a response to the decision by the British people in the referendum, a small majority but nevertheless, the British government to withdraw from the European Union.

And the withdrawal agreement is intended to make that orderly, predictable, and [13:55:00] without unnecessary damage to citizens, businesses, security, and other very very important issues. So it is intended to accommodate the departure of the U.K.

This is what's at the table and I think it is the best way to do that. But if the U.K. doesn't agree, we're all ears to hear what they do want. But frankly speaking, is it any clearer to you listening to all these British politicians screaming and shouting about what they don't want?

QUEST: Go ahead.

GORANI: I mean I was going to ask the same question. But what then can the E.U. offer?

QUEST: Yes. I mean that --

GORANI: Is there anything that hasn't been offered that can be offered? Or is this deal or any incarnation of it dead and we're looking at basically the abyss from here?

SCHAAKE: Well, I believe that there is room for clarifications. I listened to President Macron today, I heard some of the same comments made from the German government. I think everybody here, no matter what political party, no matter whether they're in the European Parliament or representing governments or the commission, are happy to make the departure of the U.K. from the E.U. as softer landing as possible.

But it's also no secret that a lot of us would like the U.K. to stay in the E.U. What I'm seeing now is a debate about what the best option is now that there is no confidence in the deal that the Prime Minister has negotiated, now that everybody is still primarily saying what they don't want. I think everybody here has stated they are keen to hear what the U.K. wants and only then we can look at whether that can be accommodated. It's kind of hard to see what we need to accommodate if it's not clear.

QUEST: Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it on this busy night. We are moments away from the vote. And Michael Gove, the (INAUDIBLE) are getting very excited in the House, lots of arms waving around.

NOBILO: speaking. He's quite a strong author, even if people disagree--

QUEST: Let's just listen to him for a second if we might turn to what's his saying.

GOVE: Why don't we emulate Costa Rica that has no army at all? No allies, no deterrent, no army, no way can this country ever allow that man to be our Prime Minister in charge of our security.

If he can't support our fighting men and women, who does he support? Who does he stand beside? Well, it was fascinating to discover that he (INAUDIBLE) the opposition -- WALKER: What we're hearing here is Michael Gove ending the debate and going through all of the reasons that have nothing to do with Brexit, as to why the Conservative Party believes the Labour Party shouldn't be in charge of Britain.

And I think it's interesting what your last guest just said. She referred to the shouting voices in the House of Commons. And earlier, an MP said in the chamber, she said when people are shouting, it's because they feel they're losing. And I think that's why we are hearing louder voices from both the Brexiteers and those who want to remain because they do feel like this is their last chance to try and affect what is their ideal outcome.

GORANI: And so talk to us, Carole about what to expect in about three minutes for people who are not familiar with the process here. The government is facing a motion of no-confidence brought forth by the opposition.

WALKER: That's right. This is a motion put down by the Labour Party, by the Labour leader declaring that the parliament has no confidence in the government of Theresa May. Were Labour to win, then that would mean that the Labour Party has 14 days to try to form a government that has the support of parliament. If it can't do that, then we move to a general election.

This is Jeremy Corbyn trying to capitalize on the huge difficulties Theresa May faces after that immense defeat last night to try to force a general election. But what is fascinating is that all of those Conservative MPs who choose to go through the lobbies and vote against the Prime Minister's deal yesterday or today, determined to try to put up the government because they do not want a general election. They do not want to risk a government led by Jeremy Corbyn.

So in a couple of minutes' time, Michael Gove will finish this speech. The speaker will call a vote. And then there will then be 14 or 15 minutes or so in which the British members of parliament will literally file through the yes and the no lobbies. And in about quarter past, we'll get the results of that vote.

GORANI: So Theresa May there is flanked by two of her senior minister. She's -- I mean yesterday, she seemed quite relaxed considering that she had really probably the worst day at the office anybody would have. And --

WALKER: I would say more than that. She was remarkably composed.

GORANI: But today --

WALKER: She suffered the worst defeat of all time.

QUEST: Shocked. Shocked.