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CNN Live Event/Special
British Lawmakers Vote to Seek Alternative to Backstop; E.U. Says Withdrawal Agreement Is Not Open for Renegotiation; Venezuelan Military Defectors Are Asking for Support; Acting U.S. Attorney General Matthew Whitaker Says Robert Mueller Probe Is Almost Finished; Interview with Colum Eastwood, Labour MP; Interview with Stephen Doughty, Labour MP; Interview with Lord Digby Jones. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired January 29, 2019 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back. Welcome to our special coverage outside the British Houses of Parliament. I'm Hala Gorani along with Richard Quest. Britain is heading for a new showdown with the European Union.
Lawmakers have ordered Theresa May to return to Brussels and reopen her hard-won Brexit deal. They are now giving her a mandate to seek an alternative to the backstop, the insurance policy to avoid the return to a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and the Northern Ireland. Here's that moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ayes to the right, 317. The nos to the left, 301.
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER, BRITISH HOUSE OF COMMONS: The ayes to the right, 317. The nos to the left, 301, so the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Unlock.
GORANI (voice-over): Lawmakers also voted in favor of removing no deal as an option for Brexit. The prime minster spoke just a short time ago and said she would redouble her efforts to secure a deal that Parliament can agree on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, a fortnight ago, this house clearly rejected the proposed withdrawal agreement and political declaration with just 202 members voting in favor.
Tonight a majority of honorable members have said they would support a deal with changes to the backstop, combined with measures to address concerns over Parliament's role in the negotiation of the future relationship and commitments on workers' rights in law where need be.
It is now clear that there is a route that can secure a substantial and sustainable --
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: -- substantial and sustainable majority in this house, leaving the E.U. with a deal. We will now take this mandate forward and seek to obtain legally binding changes to the withdrawal agreement, to deal with concerns on the backstop while guaranteeing no hard -- no return to a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
And my colleagues and I will talk to the E.U. about how we address the houses' views.
As I said this afternoon, there is limited appetite for such a change in the E.U. and negotiating it will not be easy but --
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: -- but in contrast to a fortnight ago, this house has made it clear what it needs to approve a withdrawal agreement. Many honorable members have said that the continuing protection of workers' rights after Brexit is something that needs to be strengthened
And my right honorable friend, the secretary of state for business, will intensify our work with honorable members from across the house and the trade unions this week. My right honorable friend, the secretary of state for exiting the European Union, will do to same on how we engage this house further in our approach to negotiating our future partnership with the E.U. as well as making clear what changes it needs to approve the withdrawal agreement.
The house has also reconfirmed its view that it does not want to leave the E.U. without a withdrawal agreement and future framework. I agree that we should not leave without a deal; however, simply --
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: -- simply -- simply opposing no deal is not enough to stop it. The government will now redouble its efforts to get a deal that this house can support. And to that end, to that end I want to invite my right honorable friend, the member from Meridan, the honorable member for Birmingham and Ludington and all those that tabled amendments in opposition to no deal to discuss how we can deliver that by securing a deal.
In light of the defeat of the right honorable member, the leader of the opposition's amendment, I again invite him to take up my offer of the meeting to see if we can find a way forward.
Mr. Speaker, if this house can come together, we can deliver the decision the British people took --
[16:05:00]
MAY: -- in June 2016, restore faith in our democracy and get on with building a country that works for everyone. And as prime minister, I will work with members across the house to do just that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right, Theresa May there, reacting after an amendment that's calling for the removal of the backstop was passed in Parliament today.
Richard, it isn't -- this is -- I guess it's not a -- it could have gone worse.
(CROSSTALK)
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is significant and I would like to make a statement. I mean, no party political impulse but as a journalist who's been covering this nonstop for months, and I haven't been able to say this, today we have a modicum of clarity and by definition a political win for the beleaguered prime minster that is Theresa May and I have not been able to say that for quite some time.
Now that being said, we are still in a complete mess.
GORANI: But that's what I said right after the Brady amendment passed.
At least -- you disagree with me but you said it's dead on arrival in Brussels.
(CROSSTALK)
PETER GOODMAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": We have clarity --
GORANI: You said it's dead on arrival in Brussels.
-- we have clarity that we are asking for something that can't be had. They're asking for a magic castle in Brussels.
NOBILO: So we know the E.U. have ruled out reopening the withdrawal agreement. However, Graham Brady, the author of that amendment, said over the weekend he suggested a codicil or some sort of addendum to the current political declaration and withdrawal agreement.
(CROSSTALK)
RICHARD QUEST, CNNMONEY EDITOR AT LARGE: No, no, no, they want it to be legally binding in the E.U.
NOBILO: Some Brexiteers do. Graham Brady did not say that. The prime minster then added that, so maybe there's wiggle room in the middle.
(CROSSTALK) QUEST: One thing I recall from our sojourn down this road a couple of weeks ago, you said to me, how many ways do I have to tell you that we have no idea what's going to happen?
Do you still think that's the case?
GOODMAN: We have no idea what's going to happen. We know what's going to happen next. Theresa May is going to Brussels and say, I have delivered a majority for something. The majority is for the thing you have been telling me for 2.5 years we can't have.
Can we have it?
No.
Ok, now I'm going to fly home and we get to do this over again.
No, there's simply no certainty over what's going to happen. And for people running businesses, for people having to figure out whether they're going to be able to live in the U.K. or if they are British citizens living in the E.U., we have no idea what's going to happen.
QUEST: There has been some progress in the sense that the Spellman amendment was passed, even though a small majority -- and arguably, you might have expected, since it was a no-deal Brexit, anti-no-deal Brexit, you might have expected -- but it did pass.
So the clear clarity is that, if she fails in Brussels, then she knows she's facing a Commons that will vote against no deal.
NOBILO: But I think it puts the onus on the Commons because you notice with the prime minster's rhetoric last hour, instead of just saying it's no Brexit or no deal, she said the only way to avoid no deal, which you have all just voted for in a majority, is to vote for a deal.
So yes, I think it makes the prime minister -- it makes it harder for her to present a simple no deal as an option but it makes it harder also for the House of Commons that can't present a consensus on anything else to reject what she calls backward.
GORANI: I just want to remind our viewers what happened tonight. There were seven amendments; five of them defeated, two passed. Those that passed were the Brady amendment on the Northern Ireland backstop, so MPs voted to support that amendment that would seek alternatives to the backstop.
Right?
The other one that passed was the one that expressed a position not to exit without a deal. Those are the two. Just so we are clear.
GOODMAN: But there's no authority to an amendment that says there's no deal, because ultimately the Europeans have to agree to extend the clock or, absent a majority for something the Europeans are actually prepared to do, we crash out on March 29th. GORANI: And Nic Robertson is at 10 Downing Street.
And we are expecting Theresa May to drive up to 10 Downing Street any minute, Nic, tell us more, what you're hearing from your end.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, yes, we saw Philip Hammond come in the front door a short time ago but it looks like Theresa May's convoy has come in the back door.
If this was a good day for her -- which the general assessment has to be -- seems to be so -- she's chosen to go in by the back door and not sort of do what you might term small, tiny lap of honor, walking in the front door in front of all the cameras here.
So what we read into that, I don't know. I think we read into it that she knows she has trouble when she goes to Brussels coming. It's not going to be easy. What kind of language is she going try to employ to win them over for the -- into the impossible --
[16:10:00]
ROBERTSON: -- opening up of the negotiation, the withdrawal agreement as they said that they won't do and she said she will do.
So obviously she has a lot to work on but she's gone in by the back door tonight and, undoubtedly, as I say, will have a lot to do.
QUEST: When she does go to Brussels, what position will the Irish take?
ROBERTSON: You know, the Irish have been very clear -- and I think this is something that the Europeans have been clear on and it's not satisfactory for Theresa May. And people will notice that there's been more pressure in recent weeks, focused towards the Irish to change that position.
But when we heard from the taoiseach, the foreign minister, deputy prime minster over the weekend, he said, essentially everything that we have been hearing from E.U. officials this week, subsequent to that, that there is no opportunity to open a withdrawal agreement.
But do look to the language in the future relationship as a way for Theresa May to try to get some of what she wants. That would fall woefully short of what many of the hardline Brexiteers would want and even what Theresa May here is suggesting in the Brady agreement.
Even that potentially may fall short, depending on how these alternative arrangements were delivered.
So I think the Irish position is going to be -- and you'll see the DUP speak about this. They're convinced the Irish government is worried, worried they have taken too hard a position, that they stand to lose out because of the position that they have taken.
And the DUP thinks the Irish government may waver on this. But I think the view we are hearing from the Irish government and looking at the polls supporting Leo Varadkar, he's 10 points up in the polls over the past week, about a week ago, from their own perspective, they're handling this well, it appears.
And there won't be a sense from them that they need to budge. They'll stand firm with the European Union; indeed, it's the European Union standing firm with them. But we can expect the rhetoric on this and the eyes in the U.K. to turn towards Dublin, to look to them and single them out in the European Union 27 to help Theresa May.
It doesn't seem to be on the horizon.
GORANI: Well, the Irish border -- thanks, Nic Robertson -- the Irish border backstop is at the root of this Brexit deadlock, so let's get the view of a Northern Irish politician. Colum Eastwood is the leader of the SDL, the party that strongly backed Remain.
Colum Eastwood, first of all, you must be disappointed then by this vote tonight.
COLUM EASTWOOD, SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC AND LABOUR PARTY: Well, I'm furious because we don't expect very much from any British government ever but Theresa May signed up to the backstop in December 2017. So did the DUP actually. She then signed up to the withdrawal agreement.
And then we have the British Parliament, who are ripping up the Good Friday agreement and going against the wishes of the majority of people in Northern Ireland.
And that danger of that is be back to having a hard border in Ireland, which could be a total disaster for our peace process, never mind our economy.
QUEST: Your political opponents, the DUP, deny that this is ripping up the Good Friday agreement.
Why do you see it as is?
EASTWOOD: Well, the DUP voted against the Good Friday agreement; they've never stood by the Good Friday agreement and they're in a minority of people in Northern Ireland; 56 percent of people wanted to remain; all of the business community, all of the trade unions wanted this deal.
What happens if we are in a different trading relationship than the Republic of Ireland is there has to be a barrier across the island. That would be disastrous. We spent 20 years getting rid of barriers, bringing our communities together and this is about to divide them again. That is a very dangerous thing.
GORANI: People around the world might not be familiar with the issues at the border and what could happen if there is a hard border.
Can you explain why in your view it would be so damaging to the communities in that part in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland for that border to go back up again? EASTWOOD: Well, we had 30 years of violence because of it. Only last week, there was a car bomb in my home city of Derry. There are a small minority of people who want to take this chaos and use it for their own dangerous means.
And that's a very, very worrying scenario for people living on the border and people living right across Ireland who voted against this. The British government have gone back on their word to protect the people of Northern Ireland. It cannot be allowed to happen. And I hope the Irish government and the European Union stay strong on this issue.
GORANI: So obviously --
[16:15:00]
GORANI: -- the vote on this amendment went against what you would have wanted to see because the majority of MPs voted to find alternative solutions.
What would satisfy you?
Would anything other than a backstop arrangement satisfy you?
EASTWOOD: All the backstop does is keeps us in the same trading relationship. In other words, we don't need a border if the British government decide to go in a different way.
So there is no other way of doing this. This is the way to do it. They've negotiated for 2.5 years and now we are back to a position, this fantasy notion that there's going to be some other deal. There isn't. There's another side to this negotiating table. And there's 27 other countries. The British government think they can decide --
QUEST: So what's the solution?
Assuming, you know, Brexit means Brexit, so --
EASTWOOD: Whatever that means.
QUEST: Right. But, you know, just for the purposes of my question -- whatever side of the argument you're on, on the referendum, Brexit means Brexit. The U.K. is going leave the European Union. Now it's either with her agreement, it would appear to be, or a no-deal Brexit.
EASTWOOD: Well, I think what's going to happen is we are either going to have a no-deal or an extension of Article 50. But I don't believe this can be resolved between now and the 29th of March.
But if we extend Article 50, what's going to happen?
These issues that exist on the border in Ireland are still going to be there. They're going to have to come back and deal with those problems. That means political maturity and leadership with the Labour Party and the Tory Party. QUEST: To viewers watching around the world who cannot understand why the return of a border, hard or soft, visible or otherwise, should promote or bring back violence.
EASTWOOD: I grew up a mile from the border when the British army had to patrol it, 300 miles of it. And there was violence as a result of that. I don't want to take the risk that we go back even one step.
We have spent 20 years moving forward, trying to unite our communities, having a political and peace process that has borne fruit. We are not prepared to go back and the European Union are standing with us. And I think they'll continue to do that.
QUEST: And that's a good moment for us to say thank you.
GORANI: And in fact, well, as Colum was just saying, the European Union is standing in terms of supporting your position because today we heard from Donald Tusk, we also heard from Emmanuel Macron, both reaffirming this notion that there's no negotiation on the Northern Ireland backstop.
So we are going take a quick break?
QUEST: We are indeed, a short break, while we consider exactly what has happened and what on Earth happens next. CNN. Good evening.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:20:00]
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GORANI: Welcome back. We continue our breaking news coverage of an important moment in the road to Brexit. Parliamentarians in the building behind us voted on a series of amendments, two of which have passed, five of which were defeated.
QUEST: Forgive me.
GORANI: Well, I just wanted to bring our viewers up to date.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
QUEST: Commenting on the latest votes of Parliament, Dr. Adam Marshall, the director general of the British Chamber of Commerce, said, "Another day lost while the clock is ticking."
GORANI: Well, that's the view of British industry, businesses.
NOBILO: He was here earlier, he was saying exactly that, that businesses cannot watch what's going on in Parliament because, if they did, if they invested their time trying to follow every twist and turn, they would make no decisions. So they're just having to make them regardless.
GORANI: Stephen Doughty is a Labour MP, he backs the people's vote.
Your reaction to what we saw tonight?
STEPHEN DOUGHTY, LABOUR MP: Well, it's ike some bizarre stalemate, some bizarre score draw. The reality is there's still no majority for any deal that Theresa May can possibly get to bring into Parliament. She's essentially asked the state to rip up the very deal that she went out there and negotiated over the last two years.
The E.U. have said they will not open up. So it's an extraordinary situation to be in. I totally agree with what industry and business are saying because these are lost, the clock is ticking. And we're in this position because she's created this mess and I think the only way out in the end, it's going to be back to the people.
GORANI: But does this bring us closer or does this take us further away from a second referendum, which is what you want?
You want another people's vote.
DOUGHTY: Well, ironically, actually, as the options get narrower and different things are being taken off the table, I think it becomes more likely as one of the routes out of this mess because essentially we are not going to have a general election, it looks like, because that no confidence vote didn't get through. We have taken her deal off the table.
She's now -- she's going forward in this limbo into Brussels.
How are we going get out of this -- ?
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGHTY: I think the only way forward is the people.
NOBILO: And the E.U. have said or indicated that they would only extend Article 50 for a good reason. And the people's campaign taught me that a second referendum --
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGHTY: -- I have been speaking to contacts across the E.U. today and the Irish and many others as well and people who are in the know of the different positions. And they're saying, look, there's only a few options here.
One is that you stop Brexit all together; one is that you have a referendum to decide on the way forward. The other will be to change the red lines completely, go for the so-called Norway option or so on.
It's not clear there's (INAUDIBLE) for that either --
(CROSSTALK) QUEST: -- the Irish government is saying this evening, they obviously got the memo, "The withdrawal agreement is not open for renegotiation," the Irish government said after this.
Of the seven amendments beside your own leaders, did you vote for any of the others?
DOUGHTY: Yes, I voted for the Cooper one, the Dominic freeform, which would have traded various parliamentary processes to get us out of this mess. But crucially, the Caroline Selma (ph) one -- yes, and that's passed. And I think that was very significant because that's one thing the majority of public agree, they do not want no deal.
QUEST: Well, a small majority because what we're saying here is that 310 still were prepared to say they would go for a no deal.
DOUGHTY: Of course, that's the government whipping their numbers. The closer you get to an actual catastrophic situation. But what's happened here is Theresa May has become a prisoner by the hard right, of her own party, of the ERG. And I'm very clear that they're not going to support a deal unless the withdrawal agreement is ripped up.
They're going drag her off the cliff. And they don't care. They would rather throw this country into a complete mess. That's why I think in the end the only right way forward is going to be putting it back to the people. We can't sort of stitch up this commandment for the country.
(CROSSTALK)
NOBILO: -- this evening was Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of your party, said that he would be meeting with Theresa May to discuss steps forward. Now that is new.
Do you think that there's likely --
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: No, well, hang on a second. Hang on a second. He said -- he said he would meet. But the last -- but he hasn't got the precondition. He has not got the precondition that he required before he would meet two weeks ago.
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: Because to take a no deal --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- amendment passed in favor of that.
QUEST: We think so (ph).
GORANI: We have -- we actually can go to Brussels right now.
Stephen Doughty, Labour MP, thank you so much for joining us. Erin McLaughlin with more European reaction -- Erin.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Hala. We heard from French president Emmanuel Macron even before the Brady vote happened, rule out reopening the withdraw agreement. We've heard similar from Dublin, from the Irish taoiseach --
[16:25:00]
MCLAUGHLIN: -- ruling out that withdrawal agreement. We also heard immediately after the vote from the president of the European Council, Donald Tusk, who's been consulting with all 27 E.U. leaders, saying the following, let me bring up the statement from the European Council, saying, "The withdrawal agreement is and remains the best and only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.
"The backstop is part of the withdrawal agreement and the withdrawal agreement is not open for renegotiation. The December European Council conclusions are very clear on this point."
But I was speaking just last night with a senior E.U. official, who said, while they're ruling out reopening the withdrawal agreement, that doesn't mean they're ruling out a solution to all of this, that they would perhaps be open to providing further reassurances to the U.K. on the backstop question, reopening the dialogue between the two sides on the issue outside of the withdrawal agreement. That's not being ruled out.
But he said he wanted to see clarity from Westminster first. That's another point that I think E.U. officials and E.U. leaders will be looking at very closely, the margin that the Brady amendment passed, 317-301. We heard from Sabine Weyand, who is the deputy to Michel Barnier, at a panel just yesterday, say they wanted to see evidence that a deal, any sort of deal could command a very clear majority in Westminster.
So it will be interesting to see if the 317-301 passes muster in the eyes of the E.U. in terms of something that could command that majority. That's what the E.U. has wanted to see ever since that first meaningful vote.
GORANI: All right, Erin McLaughlin in Brussels, thanks very much.
Joining us now is Lord Digby Jones, foreign minister of safe return in investment, former CBI director, trade and investment, impact on business and the economy.
Dawn Foster is a "Guardian" columnist.
Thank you for joining us.
Lord Jones, first of all, let me ask you for your reaction to tonight.
LORD DIGBY JONES, FORMER U.K. TRADE AND INVESTMENT MINISTER: Well, I think --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: You might be disappointed, right?
JONES: Well, I'm not actually. I'm actually quite heartened. Theresa May has been getting up every morning -- imagine you, getting up every morning for the last six months and you know today is going to be worse than yesterday.
And tonight she's probably had the best night's result she's had for six months. Now everything is relative in life and, in that respect, she has actually assumed a bit more momentum and a bit more initiative than she had yesterday.
GORANI: She has momentum to go to Brussels with a deal that Brussels has said -- with a request that Brussels has categorically --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's what bears do in the woods. I mean, I work there. And I can tell you now, what will happen is -- and Germany bosses Europe. Germany runs Europe. Germans are great people. It's a conundrum (ph) but remember the Golden Rule: he who has the gold, pays the gold and makes the rules. And Berlin needs a deal.
France needs a deal and we need a deal. Now we do not want no deal nor do they but they will take it down to the wire because that's what Europe does. And so she will go, they're not going suddenly say, oh, yes, fine, we'll give in. (INAUDIBLE).
What they'll do is clarify the backstop. The people who should be worried tonight are not the British government and are not British business, although the quicker -- please, with 650 people in Parliament, give us stability. But I tell you now, the people to be worried should be the DUP because it does call the backstop into question.
GORANI: Dawn, your take on what we've seen?
DAWN FOSTER, "THE GUARDIAN": I think that Theresa May will feel a little bit better but all that's actually happened is that the Conservative Party agreed to unite together and drive the car into the wall. They're going to go back to Brussels. Brussels will say absolutely not. We do not accept this. And the U.K. will crash out with no deal.
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: Well, not necessarily because you have got the second part of -- you've got the Spellman amendment, which --
FOSTER: It's completely nonbinding.
QUEST: -- but it sets a tone for the closer it gets to the cliff.
JONES: Let me ask you a question.
How many of the 650 who took part tonight ever negotiated anything in their lives?
How many of them ever run a business?
FOSTER: The DUP negotiated a lot. They've been involved in the Good Friday agreement.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: But it's a bad deal for them.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: No, I agree with that but you do not negotiate with the European Union by turning around and saying, I will remove all my levers, I will just lie here like a puppy. Tickle my tummy.
You don't do it. You stay firm to the end because they -- Berlin tonight will think it's Christmas Day. And that's not how you do a deal.
GORANI: Well, is it a victory for Theresa May?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I'm here, I'm in agreement with you. She's had a bit better night than she's had for six months --
(CROSSTALK)
[16:30:00]
GORANI: -- but the bar was low.
JONES: The big thing business needs more than anything else is predictable, boring stability and it's not had it for a year. And it hasn't had it --
QUEST: What makes you think -- I know the history of Europe's (INAUDIBLE). But this time you say Berlin needs a deal, France needs a deal.
What if they don't need a deal?
What if they are prepared to put up the barriers and simply say, we are ready for a no deal Brexit?
The price may be there but we'll pay it.
JONES: Yes. Well, I'll tell you, the first time the French farmers put 47 kilotons of something nasty down the Champs-Elysees, Macron will give in and there will then be a deal.
GORANI: Stand by; we have to take a quick break. We'll come back with our panel on the other side.
MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
GORANI: And welcome back to our special Brexit coverage.
It is a fine drizzle.
QUEST: Let's have a fine drizzle.
GORANI: Coming down.
(LAUGHTER)
GORANI: I call this a fine drizzle but this tells you that I've lived in the U.K. long enough for me.
This is no biggie, right?
JONES: It's tropical --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
GORANI: OK. We are with Lord Digby Jones, Dawn Foster of "The Guardian" as well.
Dawn, do you think the European Union will come back and say, at the last minute, we need this deal as much as you need this deal, we'll make it work?
FOSTER: Absolutely not. I think the E.U. will turn around and say we're not negotiating. Theresa May came forward with the withdrawal agreement and agreed to it and now it's turned around and said actually, can we change it?
And I think that the big problem is, England in particular in the union, has for years and years and years really, really overemphasized its importance in Europe. I don't think the majority of European countries care that much about the United Kingdom and won't be that sorry to see them leave --
[16:35:00]
FOSTER: -- and I think that Britain will suddenly realize how small they are in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't have the negotiating power.
QUEST: Digby Jones looked like he'd been touched with an electric cattle prod --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's a typical "Guardian" response, isn't it.
At the end of the day, denigrate your country, sell your rubbish and eventually someone will believe it.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: We are the second biggest economy in Europe. We actually at this moment have got the greatest growth in employment. We have the greatest growth in GDP in the European Union and, what's more, we championed Eastern Europe coming into the E.U.
We are Germany's best friend when we are trying to stop the nonreformer of the E.U., from Macron or Spanish point of view. And at the end of the day, we are the one bridge with America that you have got. We are more important --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: I don't think it's denigrating -- I mean, you know, it's just about also seeing where you fit into the grand scheme of things because saying that the U.S., for instance, or China, all these trading partners will make up for whatever --
JONES: I didn't say that.
GORANI: -- might be affected -- no, but some of the Brexiteers -- I'm not saying you did. That's just putting the U.K. where it is in the grand scheme of things.
JONES: I don't believe that. I don't believe that, either. I'm not an ideological Brexiteer. I actually wrote to "The Times" just before the referendums and I would like actually to stay in a reformed E.U. I just don't actually believe it'll ever reform when it's not in Germany's interest in reforming it.
But I think we'll have a rude shock when we get doing deals with China or indeed Trump's America. That's not the point. Europe will be the most important trading partner. Europe is the one we need to do a good deal with.
FOSTER: I think (INAUDIBLE) when we crash out with no deal --
JONES: There won't be a crashing out of the deal --
GORANI: Why do you think there will be a -- why -- let me ask you for your position on why you believe potentially there is that danger, even though Parliament today voted for an amendment that rejects that?
FOSTER: Parliament voted for the amendment but Donald Tusk came out immediately and said we're not negotiating.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: -- has said they are not negotiating --
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: There's no need for them to negotiate because they have come forward with this withdrawal agreement and then Theresa May's -- QUEST: Let's --
JONES: What happens -- what happens when the mayor of Stuttgart, the mayor of Munchen and the mayor of Wolfsburg goes into see Angela Merkel and says, I'm looking at the thick end of 30,000
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: -- in each city if you have no deal. Do that, Chancellor.
QUEST: Right. Let's go to Nic Robertson, who is in Downing Street -- Nic.
I do beg your pardon; it's Hadas who's in southern England.
Where exactly are you, Hadas?
(LAUGHTER)
QUEST: Wherever she is, I don't think she can hear me.
Can you hear me, Hadas?
HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, yes, I can.
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: Oh, you can now.
Where exactly are you?
GOLD: I'm in Arundel. This is a city on the southern coast of the United Kingdom about an hour and a half outside London, voted heavily in favor of leaving in 2016, about 62 percent voted in favor to leave, just 38 percent voted to remain. That's about a 2:1 margin.
But despite the fact that it heavily voted to leave, a lot of people that we have spoken to are very frustrated with the process and frustrated; they feel the politicians have no idea what they actually think and care about.
They just want the politicians to come to some sort of consensus to figure out what's going to happen, because they're staring down the March 29th deadline and they're worried for small businesses here.
They say they have seen already business decline, shops shut down and they attribute that directly to the uncertainty around Brexit. We talked to one person today, who described how the politicians are handling this as "a dog's dinner." They are not happy with what is happening.
I was actually just in a pub across the street here. And I heard people around me talking about the amendments, talking about the process. But the bartender told me that most people here are just so fed up with the politicians that they just want them to all get out and get on with it. It's just -- they feel as though there is a divide, a huge divide, not
only in distance from here to London but also in what the politicians are doing and what the people they said actually voted for.
GORANI: Like birds only sing (ph).
QUEST: But I do wonder, what is it they want, Hadas?
GOLD: Well, Richard, for Leavers, they say this deal that's being negotiated, that's being talked about, is not a proper leave. This is not what they were thinking of when they voted to leave.
For Remainers, a lot of people want a second referendum; they want Brexit to be stopped.
But what's interesting today, for both Remainers and Leavers, we asked about delaying the date of Brexit, whether they would support that. And both Leavers and Remainers weren't in favor of that. That just further stretches out the headache, the uncertainty. Even those who wanted to remain in the European Union, said they just want some sort of --
[16:40:00]
GOLD: -- clarity on what's going to happen to their country next.
GORANI: All right, Hadas Gold in southern England. Thanks very much.
Quick break. We'll be right back with more news.
QUEST: It's cold.
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GORANI: Welcome back. We continue our breaking news coverage on Brexit votes taking place -- or that took place in the House of Commons behind me.
But we also want to check in on what's happening in the Venezuela with those anti-government protests and, of course, a very difficult situation for that country economically, with two men claiming to be the president of Venezuela.
Our Nick Paton Walsh is now in Bogota, Colombia, but he spent several days undercover in Venezuela, covering the anti-government protests and also the very difficult situation ordinary Venezuelans find themselves in. Nick joins me now with his latest reporting -- Nick.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, tension rising ahead of protests called for tomorrow, for the opposition to get out on the streets, their leader, the man who declared himself interim president, Juan Guaido, has really been put in charge of the Venezuelan bank accounts frozen by the U.S.
That's a potential source of funds but at the same time, too, the Maduro government's attorney general has suggested he'll be investigating Mr. Guaido.
What does this mean?
We absolutely have to wait and see in 24 hours ahead. But we have been speaking to Venezuelan army defectors, who are trying to get to their colleagues inside the country to rise up and they have appealed directly for the United States for arms.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH (voice over): Hunger often explodes as rage on Venezuelan streets and it's not ousted Maduro's government as the military generals have their backs.
The defense minister tweeted his soldiers would die for the government.
Yet, while the rank and file express support in videos like this, they tell us they're suffering like everyone else.
Some Venezuelan officers have even defected and, outside the country, have appealed on TV for a military uprising. But their supporters haven't reached critical mass. And now they tell us they want the White House to arm them.
"As Venezuelan soldiers, we're making a request to the U.S.," he says, "to support us in logistical terms with communication, with weapons, so we can realize Venezuelan freedom.
We're not saying we need only U.S. support, but also from Brazil, Colombia, Peru, all brother countries that are against this dictatorship.
They show me the WhatsApp groups plotting rebellion they hope reach thousands of soldiers, but they also rejected any possible military intervention by U.S. forces themselves.
"We don't want a foreign government invading our country," he says.
"If we lead an incursion, it has to be by --
[16:45:00]
WALSH (voice-over): -- "Venezuelan soldiers who really want to free Venezuela. Now we're unifying all those military groups working towards freedom to create a really big one that could be decisive.
The appeal for U.S. help comes after military uprising have seen little success so far.
This group of soldiers in Caracas, over a week ago, staged a rebellion. It was short lived and ended in their reported arrest. In a basement car park in Caracas, I met a serving soldier, afraid to be identified, as he spoke of the chance of an uprising. There are soldiers in every unit, he says, that are willing to rise up in arms. They're preparing themselves and learning from past mistakes. They're waiting for the right moment so they can hit even harder so people feel it.
A few units are missing weapons and ammunition to, taken for this purpose. Past operations have failed because the higher ranking officers were against it. They control every area still. And if an uprising happens, it's swiftly neutralized.
But he's heard messages to rise up from defectors and says they do inspire. It's a very positive message, he says, because somehow they give us hope. They are outside Venezuela, but feed our soul and inspire us.
But in the army for now, as elsewhere in Venezuela, it's a handful of elite keeping down many below them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH: Now we have seen over the last few hours, last days, speculation about U.S. military involvement mounting partly because the national security adviser, John Bolton, very conspicuously walked around with a notepad, saying "5,000 troops to Colombia," denied here as something that's about to happen but probably all part of a White House's bid to mount pressure on Nicolas Maduro.
I have to say, inside, you don't feel they're about to crumble but we simply don't know what the absence of that money now held by U.S. sanctions will do to the Venezuelan elites. Back to you.
GORANI: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, thanks very much.
A quick report on what's happening in U.S. politics. The acting attorney general in the United States has suggested that the Mueller investigation is close to wrapping up. Stephen Collinson is in Washington, D.C., with the very latest on that.
Tell us more about what you know and what happens once that report is finally issued.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Hala, well, this came as a bit of a shock and has perturbed a lot of Democrats. Matt Whitaker, the acting attorney general, came out and said yesterday that the Mueller probe is close to wrapping up and that the Department of Justice would review its findings.
That put a lot of Democrats, who believe that Matt Whitaker was put in the Justice Department to replace Jeff Sessions, the attorney general, to help Trump thwart the release of the Mueller report. That made them very, very worried.
The question is, how much does Matt Whitaker know?
And how long is he going to be there?
To be charitable, many people in Washington believe he was overpromoted. And we have been going through the process of confirming a new attorney general, William Barr, who's got every chance of being in the Justice Department by February.
So although Matt Whitaker caused a real stir here about the release of the report, it's possible he won't be in place for much longer and won't be able to influence what happens.
GORANI: Stephen Collinson in Washington, thanks very much.
We'll be right back with more Brexit breaking news.
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[16:50:00]
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QUEST: Final thoughts. Let's go first straightaway first of all to Nic Robertson in Downing Street.
What does it mean for Theresa May?
ROBERTSON: Richard, I think of all the ways that today might have gone sideways for the prime minister, it's not been a bad day. It's certainly given her that sense of momentum, the ability now to be able to go to Brussels with a relatively clear message, albeit an unwelcome message, potentially when she arrives there.
But I think at the end of today she will reflect on it. It could have gone a whole lot worse. It could have been more problematic. This is OK and I think get on and I can work with this. Tomorrow's another day.
GORANI: Nic Robertson at 10 Downing Street.
Tomorrow is another day.
Carole Walker's here with us. And it's buckets of water. But we're avoiding them, just. We're inside the tent.
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: So what is -- is this a good day, relatively speaking, for Theresa May?
CAROLE WALKER, POLITICAL ANALYST: In terms of what Theresa May has gone through in the last week or two this is a triumph.
GORANI: Right.
WALKER: Look, she has got what she wanted out of this series of votes, which is that she can now go back to Brussels to try to renegotiate the deal with in her hand something that says Parliament has said that if we can change this Northern Ireland backstop then I may be able to get the deal through.
She did get the vote that went against her, which was trying to rule out a no-deal Brexit. But that was just a vote in principle. It didn't bind her hands and it didn't set out how that -- the no deal should be avoided.
So I think Theresa May will think that she's got what she wanted out of this very complicated series of votes.
The big question is, what specifically did she try and get out of the E.U.?
And given what we've been hearing tonight, from very senior E.U. figures, saying they're not going to renegotiate, what are they going to be prepared to give her?
GORANI: That is the question because if the parliamentarians say we want alternatives to the backstop, the E.U. says there are no alternatives to the backstop. These were --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- I'd say you could keep talking in circles for the next 10 years. You're not going to come to a solution unless one of you moves.
QUEST: The problem of course is we're not talking about any part of the agreement. And yet at the same time, you're not talking about a wholesale renegotiation. You are talking about this very specific clause, which is unfortunate of course, for the Irish. It's extremely important for the Irish.
WALKER: What is very interesting is that everyone involved in this has said that they do not want a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, which would be the frontier of the E.U. once the U.K. leaves.
What is very interesting is that in the last week or so, at some stage to try to clarify the position when there was a lot of confusion about this, Michel Barnier, chief negotiator, said, if we were heading toward a no deal Brexit, then we'd have to look at other ways, alternative arrangements, to ensure that there is no hard border.
That is part of the reason why that wording was in the amendment tonight. So I think that Theresa May now will be saying let's look at all kinds of --
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: -- well, you raise a very good point there because if there is a no-deal Brexit, then there is by definition going to be a hard border. WALKER: Well, the E.U. will have to ensure a way of making sure that goods, for example, which don't meet E.U. standards or rules or regulations don't come into the E.U. But many Brexiteers, for example, argue that doesn't have to be done at the border. You don't have to have a hard border. You could do that electronically.
One final thought is Theresa May is still going to have to come back to this place in two weeks' time with something that she can present to Parliament and try to get that through. That is a pretty tall order.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
GORANI: So we'll be here again; hopefully the weather will be a little bit better, cooperate more.
But, Richard, this is kind of where -- it is -- we do have a clearer picture, I think, is what we can say from tonight.
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: There are no definite, binding amendments.
(CROSSTALK)
[16:55:00]
GORANI: -- has been supported with a majority of Parliament. But there is some -- is slightly less foggy. Right?
WALKER: Slightly less foggy, I think is a pretty good way of putting it. We've got a direction of travel but, look, we've got very little time left to secure a deal.
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: It is -- we all seem to be forgetting, (INAUDIBLE), we've got just a matter of weeks. And this thing's been going for two year -- over two years now and we are down to the last lines, on dotting -- not just dotting I's and crossing T's on the fundamental structure.
WALKER: And many MPs backed the prime minister tonight given the fact that she had been given an undertaking that she would come back in two weeks' time, that she would put a proposition to them.
And if they don't like it, they would be able to put down their own amendments so we could see a whole series of votes like this all over again in a couple of weeks from now.
GORANI: And I bet that we'll see you in a couple of weeks right back at Westminster.
And Richard, businesses, though, where ordinary people, E.U. citizens who live here, U.K. citizens who live in Europe, they still don't know what --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- there is still a lot of uncertainty floating above their heads and this causes a lot of anxiety for businesses and for people.
What do they do with their homes, with their kids in school, with their future?
Same with U.K. citizens in the E.U. There's still a lot of uncertainty. And I think that's unsettling to a lot of people.
QUEST: We may be moving in a slightly direction but a reminder that the U.K. is due to leave the European Union on March the 29th at midnight, so time is certainly not our friend.
Whether or not we're here in two weeks, well, much will depend on whether or not we actually get over the flu and pneumonia and colds that we'll get from having sat out here in the cold.
GORANI: I'm already -- I'm feeling chills already.
I'm Hala Gorani. He's Richard Quest. We'll see you next time.
[17:00:00]
END
