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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN International Special Brexit Coverage. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired March 14, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00] BLACK: The parliament hasn't been able to come together, work together and deliver the verdict, the result that people here in Sunderland believed they voted for. Back to you.
QUEST: Phil, thank you very much.
GORANI: Phil Black in Sunderland.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And hello, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour joining the team. We have the hour of special Brexit coverage ahead for you live from outside London's Houses of Parliament.
GORANI: Absolutely. We've already seen votes on a few amendments, another one here tabled by the opposition, Labour Party is being voted on. I'm Hala Gorani.
QUEST: And I'm Richard Quest. It is a crucial night for the future of Brexit. This is the first night where actually the U.K. is going to or may delay leaving the European Union, March the 29th, as the date seems like it's going to disappear tonight.
AMANPOUR: And we're waiting for that vote because there have been several votes in the last hour, as you have been sitting here and reporting on it, was there going to be a second referendum, we saw that soundly defeated, the issue of dates, how far, you know, the process could be delayed, that was voted on, the opposition leader, as a member was voted on, he wants to go in a completely different direction as we know, including a Customs Union and all the rest.
And very, very, very, very close vote, only two, whereby the MPs are brought down and said no to themselves taking control of the system. They voted their own selves down by about two votes. And then, the one we're really waiting for is the main one for today, really. the --
QUEST: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- delay of Article 50 and how long this whole process is going to be delayed.
CAROLE WALKER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And let's just not lose sight of quite how significant it is. I have lost count of the number of times since that referendum result that Theresa May has said to MPs, the United Kingdom will leave the European on -- leave the European Union on the March the 29th, she has said that someone who's counted more than a hundred times in Parliament.
Today, she has been forced into putting down a government motion that says that she's going to ask for a delay. And I think that shows you the scale of the huge problems that she is in, her loss of authority, her loss loss of control over events and her loss of control over both her party and her government.
GORANI: Sorry. I was going to say, what's interesting is this motion today is conditional on parliament approving her deal. Then she promises that she will request a short delay. But if not, she says it's pretty much potentially a very long delay. So, hardcore Brexiteers could be concerned or frightened into voting for a deal for that reason.
QUEST: Are we not getting to the position where time is sort of running out, there are very few options on the table and suddenly, something like the prime minister's motion tonight actually makes it -- is the only sensible thing to vote for because the second leg of it is the long delay.
AMANPOUR: Except when you consider, again, that there is another partner to this dance, and that is the E.U., and they have their own wishes and troubles themselves over this. And we've heard today that, first of all, a delay required unanimous support amongst the --
QUEST: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- 27th. And secondly, the president of the council, Donald Tusk, has been treating, as we all know now, that they would rather offer a long delay --
QUEST: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- like a year or so, to allow the country to rally around some kind of a consensus as to the future of this country.
QUEST: But this is the second leg of Theresa May's motion tonight. It -- go ahead.
AMANPOUR: Oh, no. She wants a short one, right?
WALKER: Well, look, the prime minister's whole strategy in all this is she wants to bring back her withdrawal agreement, which has already been resoundingly defeated twice over. Next week, she is hoping that because of this scenario, we're getting so close to the date, and because of the danger of a long delay that she would be able to persuade the Brexiteers that have been voting against it to come on board.
Now, that is still in the balance. There are lots of talks going on, lots of efforts to try to rest people over from one side to the other. But she has got to win over a huge number of MPs if she's going to get through that sufficient to even request a delay from the European Union, and that in itself is not a foregone conclusion.
GORANI: But as Christiane was saying, there is another partner in all of this, is the E.U. and their hope, I'm guessing, is a longer delay would give this country an opportunity --
AMANPOUR: Yes and no.
GORANI: -- to consider -- but it would give them -- yes and no because --
AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE) has come out very, very strongly worried about a long delay because it means that this whole issue of the European elections which perhaps, you know, the greater people don't really appreciate here but there are European elections and this issue is going to play very heavily in it.
GORANI: And they --
AMANPOUR: -- And the European Union does not want a divisive Brexit situation still --
GORANI: And it could also give other --
AMANPOUR: -- playing into these elections.
GORANI: No. But the longer the delay, the more the possibility or the higher, the more likely the possibility that this country could go through another general election, potentially even a second referendum or a second people's vote.
AMANPOUR: Perhaps it's interesting to talk as things stand right now --
GORANI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- and discuss why the amendment on the second referendum didn't pass and basically failed overwhelmingly.
WALKER: Essentially because the majority of MPs here in Parliament still feel that they have a duty to deliver on the result of the first referendum. There are many MPs across all wings of all parties who have very, very concerned about the damage this whole process is doing, to the trust between the people and the people who are supposed to be representing them here in Parliament.
They feel that if they were to allow a second referendum at this stage it would be an acknowledgement of failure.
GORANI: But --
WALKER: And they do not want to do that at this stage.
GORANI: So there were a lot of abstentions in the Labour Party because they believe if they had all voted it was defeated it would have been a dead, you know, proposal and --
AMANPOUR: Those are the actual organization of people's vote, didn't want this to be --
GORANI: Yes. WALKER: Yes.
QUEST: But we have to --
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
QUEST: But can I just go back to the main referendum -- the main motion tonight. There are two legs to this much. One is, pass my agreement and I'll do your short technical extension. But it's the second leg of it that's the one that's going to be getting everybody. If you do -- if we have no agreed, then I'm going to go to Brussels and ask for that long extension.
And Tusk (INAUDIBLE) have pretty much said, "You'll get a long one, you'll get a long extension if that's what you need."
WALKER: I think what Theresa May is banking on is the fact that if she does get the deal through that the European Union will recognize that it is worth giving a short extension --
QUEST: Yes.
WALKER: -- which could be completed before we get to those all- important European Union, elections. The point of the second part of it is to try to scare the Brexiteers --
QUEST: It's blackmail.
WALKER: -- into backing her deal. We've already have senior Brexiteer figures warning colleagues that there's an attempt at a fix here, they're going to try and wrangle some of your legal assurances. Let's listen to the result.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ayes to the right, 302 and the noes to the left 318.
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER, BRITISH HOUSE OF COMMONS: The ayes to the right, 302. The noes to the left, 318. So, the noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock. Order. We now come to Amendment J in the name of the Honorable General Member Veronda (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think there's any need to move this to a vote. Is there?
BERCOW: Amendment J for Jemima, (INAUDIBLE). Order. The question is the main motion in the name of the government. Member of the government. As many (INAUDIBLE) say aye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aye.
BERCOW: Of the country, no. (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Right.
AMANPOUR: Well, there we have it. That's the main motion. What everybody expected today was going to be the main event and that is to seek a delay to Article 50 and try to figure out what happens next. So, now, the speaker has called that, they've all gone out, they're going to come back with the correct and accurate vote in a bit.
WALKER: I think, first of all, the prime minister will be heaving something of a sigh of relief that she's managed to get through these last four votes without a defeat, which is quite unusual in this current phase that we're in. It came very close to her losing control of Parliamentary business, she only scraped through that by two votes. She will be relieved at that.
But now, she will be seeking the support of MPs to say, "Right. I'm going to bring back my withdrawal agreement for another go next week. If that goes through, I'll seek a short extension, a short delay to Brexit." If it doesn't go through, she will then seek a longer delay. And this is something which both she and ministers have been making clear, this is not a position they wanted to be in.
The prime minister, other ministers have said, time and time again, that they would deliver on the Brexit referendum and that they would deliver it on time on March 29th. This is, in itself, a moment of humiliation for the prime minister.
QUEST: If this fails tonight, if this -- the answer is no, it obviously is inconsistent with yesterday's vote --
WALKER: Yes.
QUEST: -- and the previous vote. Because yesterday, those votes specifically said, "We don't want to leave with no deal." This vote is giving the chance. So, what happens if this loses?
WALKER: I think it's a very good question. I think -- but not for the first time in the last week or so, we will be into uncharted territory. But I think what is more interesting perhaps is some of the questions that were asked of Theresa May's deputy during the course of the debate this afternoon. We were talking about the European Union, which is the other partner in this, what happens if the European Union if one country in those is E.U. 27 turns around --
QUEST: Yes.
WALKER: -- and says, "No, sorry, you're not going to get the delay that you want." The prime minister would then be faced with the sheet, ignore the will of Parliament and go for no deal Brexit or does she try and revoke Article 50 and that would be huge step which would undoubtedly provoke uproar, not just in parliament but more widely amongst that many people who voted --
AMANPOUR: And you just --
WALKER: -- for Brexit. AMANPOUR: The revoking of Article 50 is the -- is what she holds over the head of the hardline Brexiteers. She said, "If you don't end up playing ball, you may lose out on Brexit all along, altogether."
WALKER: That is why I think it is most likely that tonight this motion from the prime minister is almost certain to go through. But it still leaves huge uncertainties as to what unfolds next week.
GORANI: So, tonight is the night that will -- you know, parliament could vote to extend Article 50 and Brexit will not happen on March 29th as promised by the prime minister. And the prime minister, as Christiane and Carole were saying there, is probably relieved this evening that she hasn't suffered a parliamentary defeat yet.
QUEST: And Nina dos Santos is in the Downing Street. Nina?
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. Hugely, for the government, Richard and Hala, you can imagine, especially with that last amendment or the penultimate one, which thought to try and gain control of the whole process. The penultimate one that was voted on, you know, obviously, as you noticed, was the real nail biter, rejected by just the slimmest of majorities of just two votes.
So, now, we know, as you've been -- it pains to point out in the last hour or so, Hala, what Parliament doesn't want, it doesn't want extra time for another referendum, at the moment at least, it doesn't want extra time for MPs to take back control. Although, it flirted with the idea and the narrow majority of two votes so that away. It doesn't want extra time for parliament to find a majority on some kind of idea and it also will not be entertaining the idea of preventing Theresa May from bringing back her withdrawal agreement for one third and final time.
And as Carole was pointing out, what really has been crucial to try and focus MPs' minds today and perhaps has also been helpful to try and front run any kind of defeats, embarrassing defeats that the government could have suffered for a third day in a row was what David Lidington, Theresa May's deputy prime minister, her defacto number two, had to say in the House of Commons earlier today.
He was at pains to point out that MPs really face at this point a very stark choice when it came to the delay of a Brexit, do they go for a short one, and the best way to do that would be to vote in her deal on March the 20th, the day before she said to head to the E.U. so that you can then ask for a short delay or do they face the potential for a much, much longer extension?
And he also offered two olive branches as well, what he said was, "If the withdrawal agreement was defeated this time for a third time once and for all, if it were to fail again, MPs would get two weeks to decide what they wanted to do next." And that they would be consulted more and more closely.
In fact, one of the Labour MPs, Stephen Kinnock, who co-sponsored one of the amendments that was just rejected narrowly, he said at one point earlier on today that perhaps even that Olive branch from the leader of the House, the deputy prime minister, David Lidington, might have been enough for those Labour MPs to actually come to his side and then decide to vote against that.
So, as we have seen, hugely for the moment for the government but obviously, we now have to see the end game with this motion that they've put forward themselves and to see whether or not the delays going to be short or long and what the E.U. would go for as well.
QUEST: Good. Nina dos Santos who is in Downing Street, home of the prime minister. And we'll be watching very closely as that continues.
AMANPOUR: Indeed. And let's broaden the picture out a moment and get the thoughts of Peter Goodman. He's the European economics correspondent for the "New York Times" joining us here.
Welcome.
PETER GOODMAN, EUROPEAN ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK TIMES: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So, you're watching this. You obviously have a uniquely American perspective as well in terms of how it's playing out not just in the England but around the U.S., the E.U. First and foremost, President Trump again intervened in that debate --
GOODMAN: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- as he was greeting the Irish Taoiseach --
GOODMAN: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- Leo Varadkar. It's the whole, you know --
GOODMAN: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- St Patrick's Day --
GOODMAN: Sure.
AMANPOUR: -- brotherhood and unity. And he said that had Theresa May followed his negotiating advice, we wouldn't be in this big bind. Have you got any idea of what that advice might have been?
GOODMAN: Well, he's been very blunt in saying they should just go ahead and do it. And remember, you know, Boris Johnson famously at one point said, "You know, if Trump and been handling this, everyone would say he's behaving erratically and crazily but he would have staked out an insane and an impossible position and forced everyone, you know, into his corner as opposed to essentially letting the E.U. dictate the process."
Now, you know, that might -- that's good reality television. But I mean, the fact is that European Union has been very consistent and unified in saying, "Here are the menu of options that you get to choose from. Let us know when you've got one and we're still waiting." AMANPOUR: So, let's talk about your area of specialty --
GOODMAN: Sure.
AMANPOUR: -- which is dollars, euros and pounds sterling.
GOODMAN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Business, the economics of all of this. Have businesses already voted with their feet, with their flights, with them movements?
GOODMAN: I mean, I think it's fair to say that for a lot of multinational companies, Brexit's already happened. I mean, from the first moment that they understood that this referendum had been approved back in June of 2016, they grasped that there were a lot of possibilities, there was no way to predict how this was going to play but they couldn't just wait and hope that somehow --
GORANI: Yes.
GOODMAN: -- we got clarity. I mean, multinational banks have a huge presence here at London, they use London as their base to sell financial services across the continent, they depend upon these so- called passport rights within the European single market. And they said, "Well, we don't know what's going to happen, whether those will be continued, whether there will be a trade deal, whether there will be no deal but we have to act like there's going to be no deal."
So, a lot of jobs, thousands of jobs, have already been moved to places like Frankfurt and Amsterdam and Paris and Luxembourg, they're not coming back. I mean, however these plays, they're not coming back. A bunch of Japanese automakers, Nissan and Honda most prominently, that have used the U.K. as a base of manufacturing operations that have depended upon access to a whole European supply chain --
GORANI: Yes.
GOODMAN: -- they have announced -- you know, Nissan said, "We're not going to make the next model up in Sunderland, in the northeast of England."
GORANI: Yes.
GOODMAN: Honda's said, "We're going to have to pull out of our (INAUDIBLE)." Whatever happens, they're not coming back. So, for a lot of businesses, Brexit is a done deal.
AMANPOUR: Could we just put a fine point on that? Because you mentioned Sunderland, and Sunderland is the place that surprised everyone on referendum night.
GOODMAN: Right.
AMANPOUR: Nobody really predicted -- GOODMAN: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- that it would go the way it did, the leave, right?
GOODMAN: Right.
AMANPOUR: They went leave, everybody thought precisely because of the economy and the --
GOODMAN: Sure. Or just employer --
AMANPOUR: All of that.
GOODMAN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: That it would vote remain. In any event, it was the bellwether. What then should people who voted leave expect for their own economic security in this situation right now? Because clearly, they didn't vote to be worse off or to lose the jobs and lose the investment.
GOODMAN: Well, I mean, I think it's fair to say there wasn't a lot of understanding about the complexities of this process, about the degree to which British manufacturing is dependent upon access to the European single market, both to import things that end up being in export and to export those finished goods to Europe.
I mean, I went up to Sunderland about a year and a half ago and what I heard from a lot of working people, even at the Nissan plant was, "Oh, you know, we're not worried. This plant cost billions of pounds. Nissan's not going to pull out of here. They'll figure this out." And they were still really thinking about the vote tribally, they just wanted to, you know, say some -- they want to throw one back at George Osborne and David Cameron and Maggie Thatcher and the entire Conservative Party.
And I think it's fair to say that now that real jobs are potentially at risk, there's a shifting of opinion --
GORANI: Right.
GOODMAN: -- on that front.
GORANI: There was a very interesting poll last year and people who had voted leave were asked, "Would you be willing to lose your job or would you be willing for a family member to lose their job if it meant Brexiting?" And a surprising, I think, 36, 38 percent said yes.
GOODMAN: Right.
GORANI: So, so this was an emotional vote, more than it was --
GOODMAN: Right. I mean --
GORANI: -- a vote based on facts or logics.
GOODMAN: -- this, by the way, is not just --
GORANI: And therefore, you can't come back with facts and logic to counter an (INAUDIBLE).
GOODMAN: I was in Western Michigan in December talking to factories that are affected by the Trump tariffs, principally on steel but also on other goods that come in from China, and everyone I talked to said, "Yes, this is really hurting us. And, you know what, thank you, Donald Trump, because this relationship with China needs to change."
I mean, a lot of this is tribal. In Britain it's --
GORANI: Yes.
GOODMAN: -- about immigration, it's about, you know, getting back to that glorious days when England the seed of a colonial empire. It's not about our economic self-interest I mean, a lot of people are voting with their economic --
QUEST: Which is --
GOODMAN: Go ahead, Richard. Sorry.
QUEST: Which is why Lord (INAUDIBLE) was here from history of Goldman, of course, you're familiar with. He says, "Look, at the worse scenario, the U.K. loses GDP of 11 to 15 percent over the next 25."
GOODMAN: Yes.
QUEST: It's a lot --
GOODMAN: Yes.
QUEST: -- but he says it's not going to -- it's not a catastrophe.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's --
GORANI: I mean, it is kind of a catastrophe.
GOODMAN: That's certainly a catastrophe for some people. Listen --
QUEST: No. But (INAUDIBLE) but in terms of, you know, this -- what you're talking about, people are saying that there's a group of people who will say, "That's the price we'll pay."
GORANI: Yes, that's for sure.
GOODMAN: That's correct. I mean, if they get controls on immigration --
QUEST: Yes.
GOODMAN: -- if they have this feeling of nationalism. But, you know, that doesn't pay the bills. And if it turns out that the bills are interfered with, people may view this differently. QUEST: We are going to take a short break.
GORANI: Yes, indeed.
AMANPOUR: Peter Goodman, thank you very much.
GOODMAN: Thank you very much.
GORANI: And we'll be right back. And we're waiting for the result of that vote on the main motion, extending Article 50.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: All right. Let's get straight to the vote results.
BERCOW: The ayes from the right, 412. The noes to the left, 202. So, the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Unlocked. Order. (INAUDIBLE) Mr. Jeremy Corbyn.
JEREMY CORBYN, BRITISH LABOUR PARTY LEADER: Mr. Speaker, after last few days of government chaos and some defeats, all of us now have the opportunity and the responsibility to work together to find a solution to the crises facing this country where the government has so dramatically failed to do so.
We have begun to hold meetings with members across the House to find a consensus and a compromise that meets the needs of this country. But the last few days have also put responsibility on the prime minister. First, to publicly accept that both her deal and no deal are simply no longer viable options. And secondly, to bring forward the necessary legislation, to amend the exit date of the 29th of March.
Tonight, Mr. Speaker, I reiterate our conviction that a deal can be agreed based on our alternative plan that can command support across the House. And I also reiterate our support for vote not as -- Mr. Speaker, not as political point scoring but as a realistic option to break the deadlock.
The whole purpose, Mr. Speaker -- the whole purpose ought to be to protect communities that are stressed and worried. Those people are worried about their future, of their jobs and their industries. Our job is to try to meet the concerns of the people who sent us here in the first place.
BERCOW: No, no. No, no. There's no further (INAUDIBLE) Mr. Ian Blackford.
IAN BLACKFORD, U.K. SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY MP: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (INAUDIBLE) crises and of course, the end of another week. And we need to remind ourselves that the public of the United Kingdom are just two weeks away from potentially crashing out of the European Union.
Mr. Speaker, while we've been debating here, the trade bill has been going through the other place. And importantly, in other place, an amendment has been passed that this allows the trade bill if no deal is not taken off the table. Can I seek you to advice as to how we can make sure that this House has the ability to debate the trade bill over the course of the coming days and presents the opportunity that we can use legislation to make sure that no deal can happen? And that's the responsible position that we should be taking.
If I may say so, utter hypocrisy from the Labour Party, they bump the opportunity to put people's vote on the agenda tonight.
BERCOW: (INAUDIBLE) general amendments will be considered at the point at which the bill returns. That's the factual situation. There's nothing that I can add at this point. Did I (INAUDIBLE) point of order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, further to the very important announcement that the secretary of state (INAUDIBLE) the European Union made in his closing speech tonight that the government intends to bring and the neutral motion required under Section 30 of the European Union Withdrawal Acts to the House by Monday, the 25th of March. I wonder whether the leader of the House who is in her place might like to indicate to the House this evening given the nature of the business that has already been announced for next week whether the government might be inclined to bring it before Monday, the 25th, because we really need to get on with the process and trying to agree a way forward.
BERCOW: (INAUDIBLE) for his point of order, which, of course, is not (INAUDIBLE) of the chair. The leader can come to the box if she -- or -- the gentlemen is getting over excited. He's a young pup. I mean, he's new young remember. I know he required encouragement. If the (INAUDIBLE) wants to come to the box, she can but she's not under any obligation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really just to say, I will of course take into account the right honorable gentleman's concerns.
BERCOW: Grateful. Oh, very well. Dr. Luis (ph), spit it out quickly, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, as (INAUDIBLE) describes the relatively new member, I was rather puzzled by the leader of the opposition saying something about a people's vote. Is there any way within the rules of order one can register the fact that that's more than half the House of Commons voted against the second referendum tonight, the fact that so many of them abstained has nothing to do with it and the matter is completely dead.
BERCOW: Well, the right honorable gentleman has registered his view with his usual force and we are grateful to him. I don't think he's interested in a response from me and we'll be pleased to know that he's not getting such.
Now, no further at that point of order. Point of order, Laura Smith.
LAURA SMITH: Thank you for allowing me to make this point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is on an unrelated matter to today's proceedings. But I believe it is of the utmost importance. Yesterday, and the member of parliament for Uxbridge and South Ruislip made disgusting comment on LBC Radio regarding historical sexual abuse, and investigation is being a waste of money. He's exact words, Mr. Speaker, was spat money up the wall. A well-known --
QUEST: So, we'll leave the Commons there as they go into various procedural issues. But one can't ignore the fact tonight, 402 for the ayes, 202 for the noes. Theresa May has got her motion passed that with its two legs to delay Article 50.
Now, this gets really interesting because Kara Walker -- sorry.
GORANI: No, I was going to say, this is first real hit to Brexit, isn't it?
QUEST: Yes.
GORANI: I mean, March 29th is not going to be the day anymore.
WALKER: Absolutely, what is extraordinary is that the prime minister has actually won all of tonight's votes but this success in this vote tonight is truly the hollowest of victories because the prime minister, time and time again, has promised to Parliament, to the British people that she would deliver Brexit on March the 29th.
[14:30:00] She then had to bring forward this government motion which now has been passed. And it means that she will go to the European Union next week. She will go to that summit and seek an extension to the Article 50 process.
If, when she brings her withdrawal deal back for a third time, she somehow manages to get it through, then she will be seeking a short extension. But if, and it is quite possible that she could lose once again, then Brexit could be delayed for a year, perhaps even longer than that.
AMANPOUR: What do you think, I mean just with your ear to the ground and talking, we saw the scale of the defeat from the first vote to the second vote. It was smaller, right, because as Norman Lamont told us, people are getting afraid that Brexit is going to just roll away from them. Do you think this is going to be something that worries the hardline Brexiteers, or will they stick in their trenches?
WALKER: I think that there are already splits emerging amongst the Brexiteer group. Some are absolutely determined to stand firm to vote against the Prime Minister's deal because they think it is a bad deal because they think it leaves us a lot far too closely in with the European Union.
But others, yes, are already indicating that they are sufficiently worried that they might not get Brexit at all, that they will fall in and support the Prime Minister.
What is fascinating is that behind the scenes, while all this drama has been going on, there have been talks particularly with the Democratic Unionist Party, there have been attempts to get the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox, to further clarify his legal opinion on what could happen and on the new reassurances that we got earlier on the backstop --
AMANPOUR: Hoping that he might come back with a different tone than the first one, yes.
WALKER: So he might add some additional legal advice that could make things easier. And I think many Conservative MPs will be hugely influenced by what the Democratic Unionist Party decides.
They are still weighing up how to vote. And I think what they decide to do will be crucial in deciding whether the Prime Minister can manage to get her deals through next week. It is certainly very finely poised.
GORANI: Of course, it's about also -- Richard and Christiane, and Carole, it's about the E.U., whether it will accept and agree to an extension and how long that extension could possibly be.
QUEST: And with that --
GORANI: And with that.
QUEST: I'm just looking to see so far there is no tweet from Donald Tusk's account so we haven't heard yet. But Erin McLaughlin is in Brussels and is sounding out both counsel and commission. So now they know one way or the other, Erin McLaughlin -- and Phil Black is with us. Of course, he's in Northern England as well.
Same question to both of you, Erin first. Now they know one way or the other, the Prime Minister will be coming next week asking for an extension, be it short or long.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Richard. And the E.U. at this point very much expected this to be the outcome. And so they've been considering the question carefully.
With respect to that short-term extension, in the event that Theresa May does get her deal across the line at Westminster, sort of the consensus that I'm hearing here in Brussels is that they would be open to a short-term, technical extension, a benign extension in the words of some of the Diplomats I've been talking to. That would be a welcome outcome of this entire Brexit mess, frankly, according to Diplomats and E.U. officials.
On the question of a longer-term extension, well, that is very much being debated at this point. And we're hearing different things from different voices. From E.U. institutions, Michelle Barnier, Guy Verhofstadt, the chief Brexit coordinator for Parliament, they've been saying that before they consider the question of a longer-term extension, they want the U.K. to precisely define what they want out of Brexit.
The issue there is given the political chaos, it doesn't look like that's going to happen anytime soon. So we're hearing now emerging voices such as Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council. He is saying that if Theresa May asks for a longer extension, he is going to be open to that idea, to allow time for the U.K. to have reached some sort of consensus on the Brexit question.
I talked to a source very close to Donald Tusk and asked him how long is Tusk thinking in terms of that extension. The source said at least a year. But it's all being debated at this point. President Tusk is expected to go to Berlin, Paris, the Hague, Dublin to talk about this with the E.U. leaders [14:35:00] ahead of a critical summit next week.
GORANI: Erin McLaughlin, thanks very much. In Sunderland, England, Phil Black is speaking to someone in a pub in a part of England that voted firmly to leave. What are they telling you there, Phil, now that it appears inevitable that March 29th will not be Brexit day?
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Hala, the emotional spectrum, if you like, responding to the new delay starts at disappointment and only gets stronger. It's often said that Brexit support for Brexit is primarily something that older British people are in favor of.
I'm going to introduce you to two people who disprove that theory. Connor and Thomas, both 18 years old, passionate, really passionate Brexiteers. Firstly, guys, in a word, describe for me your reaction to this news that Parliament has voted to delay Brexit.
THOMAS ATHEY, LEAVE MEANS LEAVE VOLUNTEER: Expected.
BLACK: Expected?
ATHEY: Yes, the MPs seem more interested in perverting Democracy than implementing this.
BLACK: And what does that mean for you as a Brexit supporter?
ATHEY: I support -- I was too young to vote in the referendum, and as a new voter, I feel that the politicians aren't listening to what we're saying. And I feel that the people who voted Brexit in the face of all the scaremongering came from the inside.
And it was quite a significant number of people, four percent of the population is quite a lot of people that voted to leave. And I think the MPs should listen to us. We did not vote for a deal. We voted to leave. We voted for our independence.
BLACK: Connor, you're not getting the Brexit you want so badly as soon as you would like. What's your emotional response to that?
CONNOR PICKERING, LEAVE MEANS LEAVE VOLUNTEER: I feel afraid in general, honestly. Like the MPs, they asked the people, they got their answer. We voted to leave.
They've just betrayed that vote. They're ignoring what the people said, and they only believe in their own personal interests. They don't think about people first. They think about themselves. They don't think about the country. They only think about themselves. That's why I'm feeling betrayed tonight.
BLACK: So for passionate Brexit people like you, what do you do now? Do you maintain the fight?
PICKERING: Well, for now, we need to prepare for in case they put a second referendum on us, which is what the Labour Party, of course, are trying to do despite manifesto they said they respected the referendum results.
BLACK: But your preference is a no deal I understand. Is that right? You guys are local people from the Northeast of England. Your lives have been here. Your futures are in this part of the world.
There is a view that says Brexit, particularly a no-deal Brexit, would be really bad for business and industry here, bad for the economy. That's bad for people. That means jobs, businesses gone. Are you worried about that at all?
ATHEY: Not at all. All the same people are the ones who said (INAUDIBLE) Europe.
BLACK: Connor, what do you think? The future with Brexit, are you not worried about the impact?
PICKERING: No, I'm not. Some of the things might come true. Look at the financial crash. Things went wrong, but now they're better. If Brexit happens, then all these bad things come true, it'll be a short- term bad impact. But for the future, it will be great because we can re-establish our ties with the commonwealth which have been neglected during our time.
BLACK: OK, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you.
Hala, Richard, that's what we're hearing a lot of up here. There is still very much anger and frustration that Brexit hasn't happened, still very much an optimistic view that Brexit will bring prosperity to the people in the Northeast of England despite some people saying it will be pretty terrible for jobs, businesses, particularly the manufacturing sector, which has done pretty well out of the frictionless trade that it has been able to do with Europe up until this point. Back to you.
GORANI: All right. It's the great unknown once again for that part of England and the whole of the U.K. Phil Black, thanks for that from Sunderland in Northeast England.
AMANPOUR: And now we're going to be joined by the Conservative MP and Minister for International Development Alistair Burt. He abstained on yesterday's vote to reject no deal. I guess today, you voted for this yes?
ALISTAIR BURT, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Yes, I voted for this today. And this is the day to sort of see the next stage of the process, which has been conditioned by the failure to get the deal through on Tuesday with my colleagues not voting for a deal which we would have seen as out by 29th of March.
AMANPOUR: So now we've seen this real first chink in the whole Brexit holy grail of March 29th. What do you think are going to be the next steps? What leverage does Theresa May have, either with Brussels or with her own hard-right flank?
BURT: So there's always been a sense as you got right down to the end of the negotiating period when people saw the starkest of options to what extent does that move people. I think it seems clear that the E.U.'s position is not going to change. If they had been moved by a sense of impending crisis, they might have moved more before now.
But their position is very straightforward in relation to the border with a third country and everything else. Perhaps the Prime Minister will have more leverage with some who [14:40:00] voted against her deal because if it becomes clear that an extension period might be protracted, there might be difficult conditions associated with it.
The Prime Minister might be able to say to the House of Commons, if that's not what you want, if you really want to leave, you may have to realize that you have to leave on these terms and that's only the first part and then we can start the next bit after that.
AMANPOUR: And who are the most important people that she has to persuade now? We know the ERG, the European Research Group, people like Jacob Rees-Mogg, and the whole Boris Johnson crowd. Then we also have the people who prop her up in government, the Northern Ireland DUP, which is very, very doctrine now on this issue.
BURT: They're both important. The Prime Minister's sense all along has been that if she can get an agreement that involves Conservative MPs and the DUP, that is her government and her government majority, then she can be sure of carrying through the necessary legislation.
Her concern and the governments concerned about anything cross-party is that it might not last, then, therefore, she might find herself dependent on votes she can't rely on. So her instinct has been to work on Conservative colleagues, but of course, we're getting towards the last chance of that. But both the DUP and my colleagues are very important.
GORANI: Is that -- can I just jump in with one question? Do you think that the hardline Brexiteers are right to be concerned that if there's a protracted delay, Brexit might not happen at all? That's the question we get most often from people outside the U.K. They always ask the same question, is this reversible at this stage?
BURT: The honest truth is that anything is possible. You've got no certainties at all. You have a series of probabilities of which a referendum or a general election is probably at the far end of probabilities. But if I had voted to leave the E.U., which I didn't, if I had voted to leave the E.U., I would now be getting pretty antsy and would want to make sure I was doing it and I would vote for the withdrawal deal.
QUEST: You know those on the right-wing of the party. You know the ERG. They're your colleagues. They're your stable mates, if you like, within the party, ish.
AMANPOUR: Ish. QUEST: Ish. But you all sit on the same side. What do they want? I mean when you meet them and you look them in the eye, don't you just look at them and say, do you realize everything you wanted is about to go down the toilet?
BURT: Well, let me make a case for colleagues with whom I disagree. Many of them have believed for many years that Britain's destiny lay outside the E.U. and they've campaigned and they worked for it. I've been in Parliament for over 30 years, and you're right, I know these people quite well.
In terms of what they want, they want us to leave the E.U. I think some of them wanted to leave with an absolute clean break. The group is divided in what exactly it wants.
But then as you've found out over the years, Britain is divided as to what it wants for the future. And you can't get everything.
I think there is a risk. And I think some of them realize it, that what they have argued for, for a long time, the longer it is put off, there is a likelihood that the public will say we can't be bothered with this anymore. An election might intervene. Who knows what might happen. A bird in the hand, et cetera.
Now, it's not really for me to make that case. As someone who voted to stay in but now believes that the best destiny for the United Kingdom is to leave, but leave on the terms that builds a new relationship with what will be a changing E.U. I think we should all take this opportunity.
Otherwise, those voters that you've just been speaking to, the people in Sunderland --
AMANPOUR: Yes, I was going to ask you that.
BURT: -- they must think this is all going on above their heads. It's not. It's going on with them and their interests at the heart of what we do. And I can see how they would find it difficult to believe sometimes.
AMANPOUR: So what would you say to the voters we just heard from who says, you know, leave means leave, this is our democratic will? But we've already seen businesses speak with their feet in a place like Sunderland.
BURT: What I say to mine is I can drive you to the edge of the cliff because I can see a pathway down. I won't drive you over the cliff so I'm not leaving with no deal. But the new relationship with Brexit, it's not the same as being in the E.U, but the country has to make something of it because that was the decision people made.
GORANI: Thank you very much for joining us, Alistair Burt, a Conservative. I'm wondering, what does your pin signify?
BURT: It's global goals. It's the sustainable development goals at the U.N. These are what replace the millennial development goals so they're all good news.
GORANI: All right. Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Focus on climate and the environment.
BURT: Certainly, we will do so. And you and I will see each other around other parts of the world, as well as (INAUDIBLE).
AMANPOUR: Indeed.
GORANI: Thank you so much. And we'll be right back. We'll be speaking to a Labour MP after the break.
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GORANI: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of Brexit amendment votes and motion votes and the future of Brexit. And for the first time, Christiane Amanpour and myself are here. Richard Quest will be joining us later.
MPs have voted to delay Brexit. British lawmakers have voted in favor of that process, acknowledging that more time is needed to break the deadlock over the U.K.'s departure from the E.U.
And, of course, Christiane, this needs the approval of the E.U. This is not a unilateral move. And earlier, British MPs said no to a series of amendments that included the prospect of a second referendum.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And the opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn says that a public vote is now the way forward. And he also talked about a cross- party sort of compromise and all of that kind of stuff that he hopes would happen obviously to promote his own version and Labour Party's version of what a Brexit might look like.
Kate Hoey, a Labour M.P. --
KATE HOEY, BRITISH LABOUR MP: Hoey.
AMANPOUR: Hoey. Kate Hoey joins us now, Labour M.P. and, of course, leave supporter. Where do you feel you are right now after this vote? So where do you feel you are right now after this vote to delay?
HOEY: Well, I'm -- most important vote for me today was the vote that saw only 88 members of Parliament vote for a second referendum. That is very, very significant. No, no, it was very significant. It was the first chance we had to actually say whether we want a second referendum.
AMANPOUR: Kate, you're really good at spin. But you know that the Labour Party was absolutely not involved in this, didn't want to do it. People's vote didn't want them to vote.
HOEY: Yes, but the Labour Party had --
AMANPOUR: This is cosmetic. HOEY: Twenty-five Labour MPs voted to -- for a people's vote today. And I think about 20 voted not to have the people's vote. So our party is totally split up. We will never get a whipped vote for a people's vote.
AMANPOUR: But I'm surprised that you're not more concerned that we saw the first chink in Brexit today, the whole 29th of March mantra that we've been hearing.
HOEY: I mean I would have preferred us not to have to extend Article 50. And we still may not be because the reality is the legislation at the moment in Parliament went through House of Commons and Lords that we are leaving on March 29th. In order to change that, we will need more legislation. The Prime Minister --
AMANPOUR: And also the Europeans' approval. Do you think it may not happen?
HOEY: They have to approve. Now, they may --
AMANPOUR: You think it may not happen?
HOEY: Well, Brexit?
AMANPOUR: No, the delay.
HOEY: Well, I think next week, the Prime Minister will probably bring back her deal. I know it's been defeated twice but there are a lot of talks going on, particularly with the Northern Ireland MPs, about some changes that could be made in British law that would ensure that Northern Ireland could never be separated out from the rest of the United Kingdom unless the people wanted that. So [14:50:00] it's a lot to play for.
AMANPOUR: Are you getting scared that you may lose the whole lot?
HOEY: No, no, absolutely not. I know if people of this country are -- actually, one of the things I wanted to say today was I felt for the first time, I'll be 30 years in MP in June and I'm feeling quite ashamed of our Parliament and the way they behaved on this issue.
Around the country, people are even more angry because they think Parliament has manipulated. We gave the people the first say. We told the people, you will vote, you will decide. We are getting our responsibility.
They vote to leave. And for the last 2 1/2 years, a small but very articulate group of predominantly lawyers have spent their time trying to thwart it. And they're not going to win.
GORANI: But would you rather vote in favor of Theresa May's deal or an extension? You're a Labour Mp because --
HOEY: Well, I want to leave.
GORANI: I get that. No, no, no, but you see, it isn't at the moment -- it's a deal that is actually not really leaving. We're tied in for a very long time.
HOEY: So you prefer no deal?
GORANI: Yes, I would have quite --
HOEY: Relaxed about a world trade organization. I think the hype of it was so huge that it actually frightened people. And I think what we still could end up with, going out on WTO, but what the Prime Minister made default and the government made default was that they didn't plan from the beginning.
If they'd gone to the E.U. at the beginning and said, look, we want a deal, we want to work with you, but if not, we're prepared to walk away. And even now, I think Christopher Meyer, that some of your viewers will remember, said this week, he's former ambassador to Washington, said if he was advising the Prime Minister, he would tell her to pick up the phone, talk to the E.U., and say, sorry, my deal has gone down. This deal is not going through parliament.
GORANI: You're hurting yourself more by doing that. Then you're hurting the E.U. walking away without a deal. You're a much smaller partner in this negotiation.
HOEY: Talk to some of the German manufacturers, the German industry, car makers, they really want to put --
AMANPOUR: They still have access to the single market.
HOEY: No. I mean it's -- I prefer a deal, but if we have -- we have to leave. And I've got enough confidence in this country. And most people who live in the country are confident that we can make it work.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that your party leader, Jeremy Corbyn's motion, what he said now we have to get up, we have to talk about consensus and compromise and cross-party, does that stand any chance at all?
HOEY: Well, I think we all would like to see a way forward but it has to be a way forward that actually really go along with the referendum result. In other words, we leave properly. We leave cleanly.
We don't leave and stay half in, half out, which will end up with people being even more discontented. And this issue will run and run. So I think Jeremy is ultimately someone who would like us to be leaving, but he's a leader of a party that's very split and has party members who want to remain.
And I think his instinct, which is why we haven't come out for a people's vote solidly the way that some people would like, means that -- I think he would be quite happy if we end up leaving one way or the other. And then it leaves Labour the opportunity when they're next in government to do other things.
AMANPOUR: Are you saying it is a hard exit, a crash?
HOEY: No, I don't think he would. No. But he would like this all to be over with.
AMANPOUR: All right.
HOEY: So that --
AMANPOUR: (CROSSTALK) as a country.
HOEY: Well, yes they do. I think -- but it's -- Parliament has deliberately slowed things up. Parliament has played a very, very dangerous role here. And I think it's a very, very dangerous for democracy in this country.
GORANI: Kate Hoey, Labour MP and leave supporter, thanks for joining us.
Well, one of the most contentious issues surrounding Brexit is, of course, the future of Northern Ireland. The prime minister of the neighboring Republic of Ireland is understandably keen to highlight the threat Brexit poses.
In the last few hours, he met with the American President Donald Trump at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEO VARADKAR, IRISH PRIME MINISTER: I regret that Brexit is happening. And U.K. was a really important part of the European Union, but they're going now, and that's their decision. But the most important thing for us in Ireland is that their decision to leave shouldn't cause any problems in Northern Ireland where people actually voted to stay, and we shouldn't have a hard border or anything to disrupt the peace process.
And also, we want to make sure that we still have frictionless trade between Britain and Ireland because I believe in free trade. And I think it will be a few years until the United Kingdom sorts itself out.
But in the meantime, the European Union is available to talk trade with the U.S.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So let us get the view from Northern Ireland. Our International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson is in Londonderry, also known as Derry.
NIC ROBERSTON, INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR, CNN: Yes. Hala, I think in this city here, 80 percent of the people in this part of the city voted to remain part of the European Union. And they would very much support Leo Varadkar, the Irish Prime Minister is [14:55:00] saying towards people in this city.
And the vast majority would tell you they feel that they -- that their Irish -- that they want the border to remain open. In a real sense, they feel more part of Ireland than they do Mainland U.K. But that's the conundrum here and that's the huge difficulty.
You heard Kate Hoey there just mentioning that the DUP, the Democratic Unionist Party, meeting with Geoffrey Cox, who's trying to offer them Constitutional ways to reassure them that there's no way that the Mainland Britain, the United Kingdom, would ever allow Northern Ireland to drift off and become part, for example, of the United Ireland.
And, of course, this is the root of the Democratic Unionist Party's concern. They've always been a party, a very hardline party. They've always taken a very hard, strong stance, have never been a party particularly to compromise.
So this is going to be a very, very hard thing for them to do because in essence, to keep the border open, you intrinsically need to recognize that this is a land border with the European Union, not a sea border, as Mainland U.K. has and that a different set of rules may need to apply in Northern Ireland than they would in the rest of the U.K.
And this is the conundrum and difficulty, the backstop, all along. I think for the audience, to try to boil it down and make it simple here, there's a reason Democratic Unionist Party in their name have the name union and unionist. Their whole ethos, their whole belief is about being part of the United Kingdom.
So anything they see that erodes that, anything, and right now that includes the backstop agreement, it's not something that they can support.
GORANI: All right. Nic Robertson in Londonderry, Northern Ireland. Also known as Derry. Thanks very much.
Christiane, it's been quite a week in Brexit.
AMANPOUR: Really interesting coming off what Nic's just been saying. And you heard the Labour MP basically Kate Hoey basically saying that the DUP, who are the hold-outs on this to a great extent, about the backstop are having, as she called, really serious discussions.
I mean clearly, people's minds now are being concentrated because this is the first chink in the whole Brexit, the mantra of March 29th, leave, come what may, has now for the first time been absolutely punctured. What that actually means, we're not sure.
GORANI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: How long for, we don't know.
GORANI: But it looks like, what you say, March 29th is not going to be the date.
AMANPOUR: Yes, exactly, it's not going to happen. And the next is in the Europeans' hands, frankly.
GORANI: And we'll see if Theresa May tries for a third time to get that deal through.
AMANPOUR: She says she'll bring it through.
GORANI: All right. Well, Christiane, thanks very much. I'm Hala Gorani. I'll be back after the break.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And Richard Quest will be back too. For me, Christiane Amanpour, and everybody at the moment, we're going to take a break, but the coverage continues.
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