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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN International Brexit Coverage. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired March 29, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome. I'm Hala Gorani, outside the Houses of Parliament in London.
I'm having to speak a little bit louder because there is a very noisy demonstration behind me. People frustrated that Brexit did not happen on this day, March 29th as planned. Pro-Brexit demonstrators have gathered outside Westminster.
As I mentioned, it was meant to be the day Britain left the European Union, but instead, there is nothing here but chaos and confusion. That's because for the third time, MPs have said no to Theresa May's withdrawal deal.
The prime minister has put everything on the line, vowing even to quit if this deal goes through and ahead of the vote. The emotion in her voice was clear. Listen to Theresa May.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: If you want to deliver Brexit, this is the moment. If you're passionate about making sure that the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, back this motion. It's the right thing for our country, it's the right thing for our constituents. And with all my heart, I commend this motion to the House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Then it was time to vote. And like you've seen with these votes before, lots of theatrics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER, BRITISH HOUSE OF COMMONS: Order. The question is as on the order paper. As many as (INAUDIBLE) say aye.
VARIOUS: Aye.
BERCOW: On the contrary, no.
VARIOUS: No.
BERCOW: (INAUDIBLE).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Theresa May needed a big swing of support from the last vote and throughout the week has seen a trickle of support turning her side, it was nowhere near enough though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ayes to the right, 286. The noes to the left, 344.
BERCOW: The ayes to the right, 286. The noes to the left, 344. So, the noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Another defeat. The third one. And after three goes at her deal, the prime minster said the government would keep looking towards getting an orderly Brexit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAY: Mr. Speaker, I fear we are reaching the limits of this process in this House. This House has rejected no-deal, it has rejected no Brexit. On Wednesday, it rejected all the variations of the deal on the table. And today, it has rejected approving the withdrawal agreement alone and continuing a process on the future. This government will continue to press the case for the orderly Brexit, that the result of the referendum demands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, that wasn't good enough for the leader for the opposition, Jeremy Corbyn. He was clear he wants May to quit now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER, LABOUR PARTY: On Monday, this House has the chance. And I say to all members, Mr. Speaker, the responsibility to find a majority for a better deal for all the people of this country.
Mr. Speaker, the House has been clear, this deal now has to change. There has to be an alternative found. And if the prime minister can't accept that, then she must go, not at any (INAUDIBLE) date in the future but now so that we can decide the future of this country through a general election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, we're again here in London with Carole Walker and Bianca Nobilo.
So, this is getting louder and louder and part of the reason, I imagine, is they all the TV cameras are here, these pro-Brexit supporters, it's the 6:00 news in the U.K., they want to make a lot of noise and they're being heard. But this is not a negligible component of the electorate, those who want to leave. The hardcore Brexiteers who are frustrated with Parliament, who are frustrated with the process.
CAROLE WALKER, POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
WALKER: These are (INAUDIBLE) supporters who are angry at the way this is going. But let me tell you, Hala, there is anger and recriminations on all sides tonight because you heard from the prime minister there pointing out that not only had her deal been rejected a third time, despite her saying that she will resign as prime minister and leader of her party, if the U.K. can get through this phase of the Brexit process.
And pointing out that the Commons has now rejected, not just her deal, it's rejected eight other alternatives earlier in the week, it's rejected no-deal, it's rejected no Brexit. The new Brexit date, as a result of tonight's vote, is now just two weeks off. She is staring at a stark choice here to go back to the European Union and ask for extension knowing that the E.U. can impose its own restrictions, its own demands, its own terms on that, or to go for a no-deal Brexit, something that the Commons has flatly rejected, and it is an extraordinary state of deadlock and chaos with just two weeks to the new Brexit.
GORANI: But we know one thing that Parliament doesn't want. There's one thing they can all -- not all, but a majority has agreed on, and that is they don't want no-deal. So, we -- presumably, that means that they'll go for a longer extension if it means avoiding that, right?
NOBILO: And that's the underlying reason why these protesters are here. You mentioned the news and obviously wanted to get their message heard. But the reason that we have so many leave protesters here as opposed to remain protesters that we've been seeing is because now they fear that Brexit is in jeopardy.
I've spoken to a couple of lawmakers who think there's a very, very slim chance that a no-deal could still occur on the 12th of April, but really, with a Parliamentary will against and a minority government and a prime minister who's basically said she's not going to do something the House of Commons disagrees with and doesn't vote for, no-deal isn't going to happen. So, then every other option looks like a softer Brexit.
And the lawmakers I've spoken to this evening who are Brexiteers that had come on board to vote for this deal because they fear that any other option resulting afterwards would be the worst of all worlds.
GORANI: And it's not just the Parliament here, it's the E.U., both sides want to avoid a no-deal. So, when you have both sides agreeing on what they don't want, chances are it won't happen, and that could mean a much longer extension, which is why these protesters are so furious. WALKER: What's extraordinary is not only that you now talk to the members of Parliament and everyone has their pet theory about what could or should or might happen, nobody actually knows. But what is also interesting is that Downing Street are not giving up on the prime minister's deal yet.
You may have thought that after a third rejection, that that would be it, but no, what we're hearing is that we will have on Monday, another phase of these indicative votes of MPs looking at other alternatives. As Bianca was saying, it's quite likely that the most popular alternative could be something around a Customs Union, a much closer relationship with the E.U. after Brexit.
And the suggestion that the prime minister could then somehow try to embrace that, to bring it back as part of her deal, to see if she could get that through. The difficulty with that is that the idea of a Customs Union would be an absolute anathema to half of her party, to half of her cabinet, the Brexiteers.
GORANI: Well, certainly, all that talk of striking your own unilateral trade deals, that's all out the window if you're --
WALKER: And she would then -- she could then have a walkout from her own cabinet. Half of the Conservative party came on board this time, brought the numbers of the opponents to her deal down, would then reject it.
NOBILO: However, I was talking to an MP just before I came on the show and he was saying one of the reasons, which Macron has alluded to as well, which would justify the longer extension would be a change in leader, among other things, like a general election.
So, as Carole said, Theresa May might not be able to go through with that, might want to per sue a softer Brexit, she (INAUDIBLE) to resign. But if another leader takes her place who is a Brexiter then that becomes an even more intractable situation because there's no way that is (INAUDIBLE) with the Customs Union.
GORANI: I was going to say, (INAUDIBLE) might be careful what he wishes for. He doesn't know what he's going to get in her place.
NOBILO: Possibly. Yes.
GORANI: I want to continue this conversation a little bit later because right now, I'd like to go to 10 Downing Street where Nic Robertson is standing by with more on what you're hearing, the prime minister's plans are to put this vote -- to put this deal to Parliament for a fourth time. Nic?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, one place we know the prime minister isn't right now is here in Downing Street and that probably has a lot to do with the security situation on the outside that is impinging on events where you are, precisely, a little quieter down here, I have to say, the normal level of strong police security at Downing Street. We believe that prime minister is at Chequers, her country retreat, we know this is her favorite place at the weekend to bring people in try to persuade them of her way, she was doing it last week to bring in the hardliners of the Euro sceptic camp, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, Dominic Rob. And it worked, she got them on board.
But, of course, the dilemma she now faces, as Carole was laying out there, should she try to reach out across the political aisle on the Customs Union basis, let's say, after hearing further indicative votes on Monday, she risks potentially losing them or losing others from within her party.
So, that's her dilemma this weekend. Her track record so far is absolutely, as everyone here at CNN has been saying, that she will continue to push forward and try, try to get her deal through. But I don't think any of us should be surprised if we hear in 10 or 11 days, having a very similar conversation, debating numbers that might have tilted slightly further in her favor but may well have gone the other way.
GORANI: Certainly, I mean, what could a change of strategy mean then? Is it relying on the E.U. to get something from that side of things to try to get more support at home?
ROBERTSON: Theresa May doesn't have the time, she doesn't appear to have the political ingenuity, she doesn't have the political capital. She seems, at the moment, to be stuck on that track and therefore, incapable of trying to come up with something new. There just isn't the time.
The E.U. is demanding and wants and needs and says it must have an answer in less than two weeks. And that's beyond the capacity, not just of prime minister -- not just of Theresa May but probably any prime minister to have spent more than 1,000 days going down this path to be less -- left with 1/10 of that time left to try to create a new path and bring recalcitrant MPs down that new path.
And the huge stumbling block on that path will remain the backstop in Northern Ireland. There just doesn't seem to be the time and space for the prime minister, however capable she might be, to do it. And let's not forget, this has been a hugely difficult and challenging time for her. She is -- must undoubtedly be feeling the stress and strain of this and the ability of any of us in such straits to begin to think and conceive of new ways is a very tough ask.
GORANI: All right. Nic Robertson at 10 Downing Street, thanks very much. Bob Seely is a Conservative MP and member of the Brexit delivery group backing Theresa May's deal.
BOB SEELY, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Yes. I am.
GORANI: Third time unlucky, Bob Seely.
SEELY: Yes. Third time unlucky. It is symbolic. And there may be an outside chance of a fourth presentation. Let's see what happens next week. I think about seven (ph) options. GORANI: But how would that -- what form would that take? How can
this deal be revived?
SEELY: We have a bit of a -- sort of Brexit dance off earlier in the week with all the other options and we voted against all of them.
GORANI: Yes.
SEELY: So, those options come back for further debate on Monday, as I think they're likely to, then we may have the government's option put back in the mix. So, the government's option may be the least unpopular. And thus far, it has been about 30 votes more popular than any other option.
GORANI: OK. So, it's lost by less than --
SEELY: Yes. (INAUDIBLE).
GORANI: It's the smallest loser so far, is what you're saying.
SEELY: That's a great way to put it.
GORANI: So, that's not a bad thing, I mean, in the current environment. What do you make of what's going on behind us here? Because these are very angry pro-Brexit demonstrators who feel betrayed, they say.
SEELY: Well, they are.
GORANI: Yes.
SEELY: They are angry and they have justification. Inside London, inside a few cosmopolitan areas of the U.K., there is a strong remainder contingent, there's a modest remainer contingent outside. But outside the main urban centers, people strongly voted to leave the European Union.
GORANI: Yes.
SEELY: And the problem is, we have a Brexit nation but we have a remain Parliament. And therefore, the only way, as I've said to my Brexit colleagues for months now, the only way we will get anything that is recognizably Brexit through is supporting the government's deal.
GORANI: Yes.
SEELY: And unfortunately, about 25 or 22 of my colleagues haven't taken that option.
GORANI: But Parliament is a reflection of the country, isn't it? I mean, there's no majority for anything.
SEELY: No.
GORANI: I mean, they are allowed loud but majority contingent. SEELY: OK. You're making two interesting points.
GORANI: Yes, yes.
SEELY: Firstly, the -- how representative political classes are of the people they represent. And you know that in both our countries, one of the allegations is that political classes are out of touch. So, that is an assumption which we should, you know, discuss at length.
GORANI: Yes.
SEELY: Secondly, there is a wider issue of Parliament's willingness to overturn the will of the people.
GORANI: Yes.
SEELY: This country is generally governed by the will of Parliament. But on this issue, we said to the people, "You make the decision and we'll enact it," and now we're not doing that.
GORANI: But the problem is, leave it split. The leave vote is split.
SEELY: Yes. Totally.
GORANI: The -- some of these people here are saying, "Leave without a deal, I don't care, you promised March 29th and now, we might not get a Brexit at all." And you have leave voters who would like a Customs Union, who would like a closer relationship.
SEELY: Yes. But that's the same thing. You can say the same thing about Remainers. Remainers are not all about remaining because some would like (INAUDIBLE).
GORANI: Well, you either remain or you don't. You have various gradations of leave.
SEELY: But you have various gradations of what you -- the (INAUDIBLE) relationship within remain as well. So, we are split multiple ways.
GORANI: OK. All right. Bob Seely, thank you so much, Conservative MP, pleasure having you on.
Now, it was supposed to be a day of triumph, lavish parties were once upon a time planned to mark today, the "U.K.'s Independence Day from the European Union."
VARIOUS: Shame on you, shame on you.
GORANI: Instead, another day of mass protests in London as lawmakers once again punted with deadlock and delay in the near future. Pro- Brexit demonstrators were flanked by police, including some on horseback. Some officers were seen leaving Downing Street even in riot gear, better safe than sorry. So far, but it has not been loud but it has not been problematic on any level in terms of violence or anything like that. Now, with chants like, leave means leave and we want our Brexit back, demonstrators blocked streets around the Houses of Parliament in Central London.
Matthew Chance has spent the day among those speaking out on this day. And today is the day outside the Houses of Parliament of pro-Brexit demonstrators, oftentimes we have the kind of carnival-like atmosphere of the pro-E.U. supporters. Today's a little bit different, Matthew.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it absolutely is. I mean, just a week ago, less than a week ago, in fact, where hundreds of thousands of people gathered in the center of London to voice the exact opposite, they wished for Britain to not leave the European Union at all. But today, the day that Britain was meant to leave the European Union but has not has become a day where the leave supporters have gathered here outside the Houses of Parliament and they are making their views --
GORANI: I can't hear a thing Matthew is saying.
CHANCE: -- and (INAUDIBLE) the loudest possible terms. OK. I'll stop too.
GORANI: Okay, Matthew. I'm having a real hard time hearing, Matthew, I'm afraid. That lady is saying something. Maybe you can share her thoughts with us. It gives us a sense of what these demonstrators are thinking.
CHANCE: She was -- yes, I will. She was attempting to interview me as I was doing this live, she interrupted. But basically, she's basically saying, "Look, Brexit means Brexit. We want to leave," you know, she said, we were the mainstream media and therefore don't tell the truth. We're getting that refrain quite a lot.
Yes. These protests are getting really loud. They've been loud the whole day. Actually, these people are quite interesting because they're French, French Frexits, that's the group of people that we're currently with marching down the street in sympathy to their British counterparts.
Thank you very much, Madam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I'm going to talk to you because we don't get any time. Theresa May is a traitor. We did not agree to any delay.
GORANI: Thank you very much, Matthew Chance. Still to come tonight, just how much longer can the British prime minister keep her job? We'll have the latest from Westminster next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Top story at this hour, British Prime Minister Theresa May's E.U. withdrawal agreement has been rejected again by Parliament. It is the third time that her government has been defeated over this deal. The U.K. now has a new departure date, April 12th, and it has until then to make a plan before the -- it leaves the E.U. by default without default without a deal. Something lawmakers have voted against though. So, this is -- it's probable they will come up with some sort of way to avoid that.
Joining me now to try and look ahead and divine what on earth happens now is political commentator, Nina Schick and Liam Halligan, economics commentator at "The Telegraph."
Let me ask you first, Liam. A fourth time? You think the prime minister's going to bring this deal forward a fourth time?
LIAM HALLIGAN, COLUMNIST, THE TELEGRAPH: I think she will and I think it will happen early next week.
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: The first time she lost her meaningful vote it was by an enormous 230 deficit, the biggest ever defeat for a government in pretty much British history.
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: Then it was defeated by 149 votes, so much lower. And today, it was defeated by less than 50 votes. So, I think she will try and bring it back again. What we saw in the run-up to today's vote were a lot of Tory Brexit MPs that don't like the withdrawal agreement --
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: -- who thought this is the least worst option, because the alternative if her deal doesn't get through is a long delay and during that delay, a lot of people feel that Brexit could be lost.
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: A second referendum could gain the upper hand and the vote back in June 2016 that a lot of people behind us are protesting about, they voted to leave, will be annulled.
GORANI: So, for those who would want another people's vote, who say, "We want this, you know, to be asked again if we support Brexit," here you have a prime minister who every time she loses a vote just kind of brings her deal back again up for another vote.
NINA SCHICK, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely.
GORANI: And they might find that frustrating on some level.
SCHICK: Absolutely. And I think that, you know, those people who are campaigning for a people's vote have not failed to pick up on the prime minister coming back again and again with her deal, saying, "If you can keep on coming back, then we, the people, could have changed our mind." So, let us put it to a vote." I think Theresa May, I think her deal won't get through, even if she --
GORANI: Even a fourth time?
SCHICK: Even a fourth time.
GORANI: Even if the option is a two-year extension, even longer and potentially no Brexit at all?
SCHICK: Because she is dealing with idea ideologues. I mean, the DUP fundamentally will not vote for the deal because of the backstop. What they have failed to realize is the backstop is not going anywhere. Whatever prime minister replaces Theresa May, whichever government is in power after Theresa May, the withdrawal agreement is closed. The backstop stays, even if it's a no-deal Brexit. (INAUDIBLE).
GORANI: If she can flip Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson, could she not get to the DUP somehow?
HALLIGAN: Well, the DUP, for each international viewers who, for some reason, have not been following this 24 hours a day, they've got other things to do, they got real lives, right?
GORANI: Yes. Yes.
HALLIGAN: The Democratic Unionist Party, they're people who want the North of Ireland to stay part of the United Kingdom and they're very suspicious, always, that they're going to be sold down the river. So, over the years and the generations, they've developed a reputation, deserved, for very, very hard negotiation. They say about the DUP, they'll cut off their eyelids during a negotiation so they're not the first ones to blink.
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: And they did go into some kind of not coalition with Theresa May back in June 2017 when she lost her majority, they went into what we call a confidence and supply agreement.
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: The default would be that they'll back her general business, but that cost them a billion -- that cost the government a billion pounds.
GORANI: Yes, yes.
HALLIGAN: A thousand million pounds. Like they literally said publicly, "We'll do it but we want a thousand million pounds."
GORANI: And explain to the international viewers who don't know the granular -- on a granular level, Northern Ireland politics, who are the DIP? HALLIGAN: The DUP, there are two big unionist parties that back the
Union between the mainland of Britain and Northern Ireland. You've got the Ulster Unionist, the UUP, that tend to be more middle class, more university educated unionists with all respect and then you have the DUP which tends to cover working class.
GORANI: I guess pretty extreme positions on social issues?
HALLIGAN: They do have some extreme positions on social issues, like they don't recognize same-sex partnerships and so on.
What I would say though, is though the Tory Brexiters are often characterized as extreme or as ideologues, people like Jacob Rees- Mogg, what they're actually calling for is Brexit which every Conservative politician in there was elected on in their manifesto on June 2017 and which 17.4 million people, including some of these rather loud bell clangors behind us, voted for.
I think in the end, the DUP will back the agreement.
GORANI: OK.
HALLIGAN: But they're going to want another billion. They're going to want another billion and plenty more things besides.
GORANI: How much is that per MP, by the way? But -- OK. So, you two disagree on whether or not the DUP -- and it's crucial --
HALLIGAN: Well, nobody knows.
GORANI: No one knows. But I mean, your sense is potentially that they'll find it's in their best interest, maybe because some payment is coming their way. And in your opinion, no, they won't, because they're ideologues, right.
But either way, I mean, this is a country -- just, I don't know, nobody knows, but it just seems as though a very long delay is inevitable unless you just want to leave without a deal, right?
SCHICK: Yes. I mean, technically, unless something changes by automatic extension of law, the U.K. will crash out without a deal on the 12th of April.
GORANI: Right.
SCHICK: That's the only thing that Parliament agrees shouldn't happen.
GORANI: That's right.
SCHICK: In order for that not to happen, there have to be legal steps to prevent that, either by an extension request or a revocation. Given that I don't think Theresa May's deal is going through, because I don't think the DUP will budge and I don't think kind of hard Brexiters in her own party will budge, the ERT.
GORANI: They already have, though.
SCHICK: Some of the ERTs haven't. Over 30 Tory MPs voted against the dead today.
GORANI: Sure.
SCHICK: So, then the only option is a long extension. And when that extension happens, the question is, is this just a can-kicking exercise? Does anything fundamentally change? If you have a general election, will that change the dynamics? If you have a second referendum, what if it's a close vote the other way? This country is completely divided, the Parliament is divided. And whatever happens next, the kind of political wounds of Brexit are deep and will scar this country for a generation.
GORANI: And it's not just -- it's not just Parliament that doesn't want a no-deal, it's also the E.U.
SCHICK: Yes.
GORANI: So, when you have both sides agreeing that they want to avoid an outcome --
HALLIGAN: I agree with Nina on that. I don't think no-deal is going to happen. I think the Tory Brexiter holdouts that aren't voting for a version of Brexit, a version of Brexit they don't like but at least it gets Brexit legally and psychologically over the line, they think it will default to no-deal. And they hear Emmanuel Macron very slyly saying, "I want Britain to leave with no-deal. Why don't you all go away," and they listen to reports from Brussels saying the E.U. is preparing very seriously for no-deal.
No-deal isn't going to happen because this massively pro-remain Parliament, 480 of 650 MPs in the building behind me voted for remain, they will pass primary legislation to stop no-deal. They've already shown they can wrest control of the Parliamentary agenda --
GORANI: Well, it's in no one's interest.
HALLIGAN: -- of the prime minister. A lot of people would say, I mean, we have the governor of the bank, the former governor of the Bank of England today.
GORANI: Yes.
HALLIGAN: One of the few world class economists to come from Britain at the moment, saying that he thinks no-deal would be absolutely fine. A lot of the business community thinks no-deal would be absolutely fine.
GORANI: A lot of? I don't know.
SCHICK: No.
HALLIGAN: Well, now they do.
GORANI: I mean, you have one trade group, one industry group after another saying, no-deal is a disaster.
HALLIGAN: Yes. But trade -- with all respect, trade groups like the status quo, trade groups, big business. A lot of small businesses, a lot of investors, a lot of entrepreneurs, they think no-deal would be absolutely fine.
GORANI: I want to continue this conversation hopefully, I don't know, maybe -- I'm sure I'll see you soon, certainly Monday is going to be a big day. Liam Halligan and Nina Schick, always a pleasure. Thanks for coming on.
Still to come tonight, Europe is now bracing for a no-deal, as we've been discussing. Next, we'll take you live to Brussels for E.U. reaction.
[14:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Back to Westminster on a day of political chaos. It was supposed to be a day of celebration, at least for those who wanted to leave the E.U., not for those who wanted to remain. But instead, it's yet another day of uncertainty.
The U.K. was meant to leave today, but it's now in the midst of a huge political crisis, still in the E.U. and unsure what comes next. We all are. British Prime Minister Theresa May's E.U. withdrawal agreement has been rejected by Parliament for the third time.
The U.K. now has until April 12 to make a plan before it crashes out by default without a deal if all else remains equal. The E.U. says the rejection of the Prime Minister's plan means a no deal Brexit is likely.
The latest setback has the E.U. Council president calling for an emergency summit. That meeting is set to take place on April 10, just two days before the current exit date.
Erin McLaughlin is in Brussels. So, Erin, these E.U. leaders are saying, prepare for a no deal, prepare for a no deal. But a majority of MPs don't want a no deal, the E.U. doesn't want a no deal.
So presumably, we can expect them to come to some sort of an agreement, again, for an extension. But this time, the extension would probably be a whole lot longer than two weeks.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Yes. And we're hearing from E.U. leaders, Hala, address the question of the extension. You know, on that topic, there has been a divide here in Brussels with Germany being perceived as more accommodating to the idea of a long extension and then France taking a much tougher position.
And then tonight, in reaction to the vote, the Elysees Palace releasing a statement sort of living up to that expectation. I have it from a spokesperson. Let me pull it up and read you a portion of the statement released out of Paris,
Saying, "The idea of a long extension involving U.K. participation in the European elections can only be considered if the alternative plan is credible, supported by a majority in the British Parliament. An extension is not automatic."
So they are laying down some pretty tough parameters, striking that the Elysees Palace wants to see a majority for it in the British Parliament because as we know, the British Parliament at this point is struggling to show a majority for anything.
I've heard from other E.U. voices here in Brussels, saying, really, when it comes down to it, in their view, the crimson red line on the question of the extension is participation in the European Parliamentary elections, which in and of itself is going to be politically sticky for the United Kingdom should they come to Brussels during that extraordinary summit and actually request the extension because, again, the request has to be made at this point.
GORANI: Erin McLaughlin in Brussels, thank you very much. We're covering all angles of the story for you, beyond the halls of Westminster. Our reporters are getting the views of voters from both sides of the divide.
Nina Dos Santos is in the Northeast Somerset Region and Anna Stewart is in Doncaster. And Nina, first to you.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, the view is beautiful, as you can see, but when it comes to the political view, it is highly divided in this part of the United Kingdom. Broadly speaking, lots of parts of the west country, including this particular constituency, wanted to remain inside the E.U. but you do have significant pockets of leave within this kind of territories.
And I'm coming to you from one of them. This is actually the constituency of the big Brexit voice on the Conservative Eurosceptic flank, that is Jacob Rees Mogg, the chairman of the European [14:35:00] Research Group which is, of course, the one that has really, really put a huge amount of pressure on Theresa May, helping to vote down this deal twice before, before turning on the third time. But obviously, she hasn't managed to get it through this time today.
And there's a lot of consternation here among a lot of the people I've been speaking to throughout the course of the day, Hala. But this was supposed to be the day that Brexit happened.
Whether you're talking to Remainers or Leavers in this constituency, of which there are many on either side, they will say, "Look, I'm absolutely sick of Brexit by now. I'm bored with it. Either I want another say or I want it revoked or I want a hard Brexit at this point so that it's done and dusted and the government can get on with something else."
There's a real feeling throughout the course of this week. I've been to Brighton, which is a pro-remain hot spot on the south coast, also, Bath, the historical city yesterday, that's a big remain hotspot. Northeast Somerset here, again, a little bit more divided. All of them saying it's time to mend the political system. Whichever way Brexit goes, if it is or isn't delivered, it is time to try and use this as a vehicle to try and make sure that we can, you know, never have these types of divisions across the country for here and for good.
Now, obviously, Anna, you've been visiting the leave hotspots and I presume there's a bit more of a cohesive message, especially given the fact that this deal for a third time unlucky hasn't gone through.
ANNA STEWART, REPORTER, CNN: It's actually been quite surprising just how cohesive the message has been. This has been our fifth stop on a tour of Brexit Britain, I guess. And while each place has a different reason as to why they wanted to leave the E.U., they're all united on certain elements.
One is they haven't changed their mind. I have yet to meet a single person who voted to leave the E.U. who would change their mind. And, in fact, I would say the vast majority, sort of 90 percent of everyone I've spoken to, have also said they would like a no deal Brexit.
They may have had appetite for a deal, you know, a year ago, maybe two years ago, but they certainly have no appetite for a deal now. So when I broke the news to the pubs behind me, they're filled -- actually it's a lovely, sunny, Friday afternoon. I told them the prime minister's deal didn't get through again and I was greeted with many smiles. People thought that's absolutely fine and might bring a no deal closer, even.
The feeling here, like where you are, though, Nina, is that there is some sort of fragmentation in politics. People do feel very frustrated. And actually, I would say today in Doncaster, I really got a sense of anger from some of them that politicians aren't necessarily listening to them.
This is a big leave area. Seven in 10 people across Doncaster as an area voted to leave the E.U. Now, I found out that two -- there are three MPs here. One wasn't allowed to vote as they are a deputy speaker of the House. One voted against May's deal. One voted for it.
Back to you, Hala.
GORANI: Anna Stewart, thank you very much, and Nina Dos Santos as well. Thousands of people came to Central London today to demonstrate in front of Parliament. They're still behind me, by the way, you might hear some of them picked up on the microphone.
They're saying, essentially, that they're unhappy with the whole Brexit process because a lot of the people behind me are die-hard Brexit supporters. They wanted March 29 to be their "independence day". They didn't get that.
Many who voted to leave the E.U. say they would rather leave without a deal than face an extension because an extension could mean down the line that there's no Brexit at all. That is a risk.
Our Matthew Chance spoke with one Brexit supporter a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democracy has been destroyed today, thank you to the government that we have in power at the moment.
MATTHEW CHANCE, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: You want to leave, don't you, without a deal with the European Union? That could still happen, couldn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have liked to have left with a deal, but we voted to leave. There was no deal mentioned when we decided to leave. It was just leave.
CHANCE: What about the economic consequences of leaving Brexit -- the economic consequences of leaving without a deal, crashing out? It could be catastrophic, isn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crashing out is the wrong term. We will be much better off if we leave today, now, without a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's get some perspective now from Peter Goodman. Peter Goodman is the European Economics Correspondent for "The New York Times." So we were speaking during the break about how unified the E.U. has been in all this, with all this division and chaos, they've really spoken with a single voice.
PETER GOODMAN, EUROPEAN ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: That's been striking. I mean, think back to, you know, one of the reasons that propelled the leave vote and there was this sense that Britain had to get out of this failed club of European countries, slow economic growth. They had made a hash of multiple bailouts for Greece.
And you think about, you know, the recriminations, the analyst disagreements between Northern European countries and Southern European countries. And so Britain's going to get out of all that [14:40:00] and is going to pursue this glorious future as an independent country and there's going to be this tough negotiation.
And what we've essentially seen is that Britain is busy having a civil war, can't pick from a menu that's been very clear for almost three years. And the European Union 27 has held together quite coherently.
GORANI: And that could be because Brexit is an existential threat to the E.U. and they know that they either band together or their union, too, could collapse.
GOODMAN: Yes, I think that's right. I mean part of it is just a generalized fear of populist movements. So I mean, we see that there's a populist government in Italy that's potentially challenging the E.U. under rules on fiscal spending. Donald Trump, of course, taking over the United States government in the interim. And there's a sense that the European Union has to hang together and stand for its principles.
And, you know, that may have sounded like rhetoric at the beginning. But boy, it seems pretty clear that they have, indeed, hung together and pursued a strategy.
GORANI: So now Theresa May's deal defeated for the third time. The general consensus is the E.U. doesn't want a hard Brexit.
GOODMAN: Right.
GORANI: We know MPs don't because they voted against it.
GOODMAN: Right.
GORANI: But you were telling me you think they could play a hardball, that still it could happen?
GOODMAN: I don't think it's a given that if Britain decided, all right, we're going to go for a long extension, that they're going to get it without some fairly onerous conditions. I mean, first of all, Britain is going to have to participate in the European Parliament elections, which will be an indignity.
It will just be really weird. I mean you're on your way out the door and now you're going to campaign for the elections for this institution that you're abandoning. So that won't go over well.
Moreover, it's not at all clear that the European Union is going to say, yes, well, you've done such a productive job with the 33 months that you have had to decide how to pursue this, go take another nine months and just, you know, ponder.
GORANI: Or even longer.
GOODMAN: Correct. I mean, they're probably --
GORANI: But they'll want something in return so like what?
GOODMAN: People want a general election, a referendum.
GORANI: A general election. Maybe a referendum?
GOODMAN: They're going to want some clarity, like what's going to happen in the interim. Moreover, let's remember that 27individual member states have to agree unanimously to agree to an extension, and this is a lever for somebody to pull.
I mean, maybe, and I'm just speculating, Salvini in Italy could say, now's my chance to do a favor to Nigel Farage and Ukip. I mean Brexit is their project and say, well, we're just going to view that --
GORANI: I know they're Eurosceptics. The Salvinis of the European Union and others, also Hungary and others have shown that. But are they ready to really -- this is a nuclear option.
GOODMAN: Probably not. GORANI: You know what I mean? I mean you're going against Merkel and Macron.
GOODMAN: Probably not. But I mean we're already into the realm of something very unlikely and seemingly irrational is how this thing is going to end because we're so deep into uncharted territory. We can't even remember where the charted territory was when we entered this strange place we're in.
GORANI: I think the issue with Brexit, which confounds and frustrates so many, is it doesn't seem -- there really is no solution now.
GOODMAN: Right.
GORANI: Let's be clear. There's no solution. The only deal on the table is wildly unpopular. There's no time to negotiate another one. People don't want a hard Brexit, yet it's looming.
GOODMAN: Right.
GORANI: A long extension means the whole thing might be canceled.
GOODMAN: Right. And so this idea that you know, Theresa May has now said, well, it might take a general election to resolve this. Really? I mean she's perfectly correct to say, "You think if you get rid of me, you solve this?"
That's not at all clear. I mean, you get rid of her, maybe you end up with a hardline Brexiteer government. That's still a minority government. You still have to deal with the DUP. You have to deal with the Labour Party. They have to deal with public opinion on some level.
If you have a general election, we could end up with the same constellation of forces. I mean we have --
GORANI: It doesn't solve the underlying issues.
GOODMAN: That's right.
GORANI: Certainly not the Northern Ireland-Ireland border question.
GOODMAN: Correct.
GORANI: Peter Goodman of "The New York Times," thank you very much for joining us on this Friday evening.
GOODMAN: Thank you.
GORANI: Have a great weekend.
Still to come, the caliphate is defeated, but is this the end of ISIS? My exclusive interview with a U.S. envoy to the anti-ISIS coalition next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) GORANI: Welcome back. Let's take a break from Brexit. This month has not just been historic for the U.K. The final ISIS stronghold in Syria has been obliterated. As you know, the territorial ISIS caliphate has been defeated.
I spoke to Ambassador Jim Jeffery. He is the U.S. envoy to the Anti- ISIS Coalition. I had a conversation with him just a few minutes ago about what comes next now in the battle not just against the caliphate but against ISIS ideology. Listen.
JAMES JEFFERY, SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE GLOBAL COALITION TO DEFEAT ISIS: ISIS is defeated as a caliphate, as a territorial entity controlling a population and fielding an army. That's an extremely important and very, very dramatic change for the better.
But it still has, by some estimates, 15 to 20,000 individual cells -- individuals in cells and small sleeper groups throughout parts of Iraq and Syria. And we're working with both the Iraqi government and our local Syrian allies to weed out these people and to ensure that they cannot continue to attack the government structures both in Iraq and in Syria.
GORANI: Those who look at the situation and know the region well would say all the ingredients that led to the rise of ISIS are still there. You still have autocratic central governments. You still have a power vacuum. You still have -- and especially now with the U.S. troop drawdown, U.S.-backed forces will complain, we're not getting the assistance, potentially, going forward that we need to keep ISIS at bay. How do you respond to that?
JEFFERY: First of all, we believe that we in our coalition partners from outside the region will have enough forces capable of advising, assisting, training, and working with the local security personnel, both in Northeast Syria and in Iraq to deal with the specific military threat.
But you're absolutely right. Aside from the tactical retail level work in communities on governance, on reconciliation, issues like that, you need to ensure that the overall situation in the region is more stable. Thus, we're working very hard through the U.N. to see a fundamental change in the Assad Regime.
GORANI: And what do you tell your coalition partners and the U.S.- backed forces as well? You say you have enough U.S. troops to advise and support, but I believe the number of U.S. troops will go down to 400 from a couple of thousand. How is that enough?
JEFFERY: First of all, we don't talk about numbers. And the final decision on how large the U.S. presence in the northeast will be of Syria, that's still being worked on. But, of course, it's not just U.S. troops. It's also coalition commitments.
And we believe that we will be receiving significant coalition forces to work with us in the northeast or work with us close to the northeast, helping on problems that will -- need to be resolved to ensure that the security there is better than it was several years ago.
GORANI: Syrians and Iraqis say the U.S. should be more involved, that it's retreated, that it's -- I know you don't talk numbers but we're talking about a small contingent here of advisers. Do you agree with that?
JEFFERY: Absolutely not. We think that a small footprint in some respects is sufficient to do the job. We did the defeat of ISIS with a small American footprint in the northeast of Syria, some 2,000 personnel. [14:50:00] At the most, less than 10,000 personnel in Iraq.
So, if you look at how successful we've been on this campaign so far, I see no reason to conclude that we won't be successful in the future.
GORANI: The president, President Trump, a few weeks ago, said ISIS is a hundred percent defeated. But I know, you yourself, as we've been discussing in this interview, realize that the threat of ISIS is far from gone, that you have many fighters that have gone back to their towns and villages, that the threat of the insurgency that really will be hitting soft targets and civilian areas is still very much there.
We've seen it already in places like Manbij that ended tragically with the death of four Americans. Was it premature or is it even now premature to say ISIS is defeated?
JEFFERY: Not at all. What the president was talking about -- and the president and the rest of us have made it clear, numerous times, is the defeat of the ISIS territorial caliphate and that has been defeated. That has been destroyed. It has been eliminated.
ISIS still has adherents, particularly in the core areas of Iraq and Syria, as I mentioned earlier. But equally importantly, throughout much of the globe, from the Philippines to West Africa, from the Sinai to Somalia, you have ISIS cells, you have ISIS branches. We're very concerned about those.
We're taking a collective approach under the coalition with our partners on the ground to deal with this threat throughout the world. We're not looking away from this.
We're not congratulating ourselves. We need to keep the pressure on ISIS. We are, but this was a very important step forward, the defeat of ISIS as a territorial entity.
GORANI: James Jeffery, the special envoy to the Anti-ISIS Coalition who was, of course, also U.S. ambassador to Iraq for several years.
Staying in the Arab world, what's going on in Algeria is very interesting, really, a lot more tension on the streets, thousands of protesters once again defied authorities and took to the streets in Algeria, demanding the resignation of the president and it got very tense and in some cases violent. As you can see there, police using water cannons to try to disperse huge crowds in Algiers, the capital.
Marches took place across the North African country for the sixth Friday in a row. Earlier this week, Algeria's army chief called for the ailing leader Abdelaziz Bouteflika to step down. So, very tense situation there in Algeria, continuing once again.
Those are images from Algiers. Quick break. We'll be right back. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Welcome back. The United Kingdom was supposed to leave the E.U. today, about four hours from now. Well, it isn't, and lawmakers in the rest of the country are trying to work out how to get out of this mess after rejecting Theresa May's deal for the third time.
Bianca Nabilo is here closing out the hour. Richard Quest is coming up after a quick break. But I find it interesting that these pro- Brexit demonstrators have been attacking the media. These are the same lines we hear at Donald Trump rallies, frankly.
They certainly have an issue with the BBC, mainly, over others. You know, fake news and all the rest. Where are they [14:55:00] getting this from because this is not something that existed in the U.K. a couple of years go as far as I could tell?
BIANCA NOBILO, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: No. And it's difficult to make an assessment because you and I know that this is incredibly unusual and we haven't really seen leave protesters coalesce in this way, all grouped together as you started to ramp up in recent months.
I think there's obviously a similarity of me drawing this dimension between the leave campaign and President Trump's campaign and that is because they've shared some of the same advisers so you would expect there to be some overlap. And a key message of President Trump's campaign has been regarding the media and that you can't trust several of the news outlets and that seems to be analogous to this campaign over here as well.
GORANI: But I mean, it's incredible because in the U.S., it has worked with a certain contingent of Trump supporters and here it's something that I was surprised to see was pretty prevalent among these protesters.
And they, when the newscast started around 6:00 p.m. and also now, 7:00 p.m. coming up, a lot of "BBC" and "ITV" and stuff like that. CNN is kind of under the radar because they're not watching us in Britain, mainly, but it's interesting.
NOBILO: And anti-establishment as well. When you think of the Brexit campaign, pollsters that I've spoken to, sociologists say that because it was such a binary vote, leave or remain, people projected on to that whatever they wanted, a large amount of the leave vote. People should be at the ceilings and anti-establishment, wanting some sort of change in politics. And media and having skepticism towards the mainstream media, the "BBC" in particular, could feasibly come under that umbrella.
GORANI: It's this idea that it's the elites kind of controlling the masses without regard for their wellbeing or what impacts them.
NOBILO: And when it's a day when they were expecting Brexit to happen, March 29, that adds fuel to the fire.
GORANI: So I know you'll be with us in the coming hours for more on what happened in parliament today. Thanks very much. Bianca, we've run out of time for this hour.
I'm Hala Gorani. Theresa May's deal rejected for a third time in parliament. Will she put it up for a vote a fourth time? Some of the MPs in her party say, yes, yes, she'll probably try.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
