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Senate Debates Impeachment Trial Rules. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 21, 2020 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: -- wrong and others, the ways that he's wrong that Senator Schumer is pointing out have to do with mainly the evidence from the House impeachment trial being presented as evidence in the Senate trial without a vote.

[13:00:13]

And the Democrats are upset that they're going to vote on that issue because who knows how the vote will go.

There is also the matter that later on in the impeachment of Bill Clinton, witnesses were allowed. Although we should point out at this stage in the impeachment trial of bill Clinton, they had not made an agreement on witnesses. But what's significant, and this is not in the rules and this has not been stated blatantly, but the real difference is that there is no trust between Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer, none. And there was trust 21 years ago between the Democratic leader, Tom Daschle, and the Republican leader, Trent Lott.

Schumer thinks ultimately that Mitch McConnell will do anything he can to dismiss this. So even if McConnell is saying, trust us, we will ultimately have a vote on this, you will ultimately get to make a decision on whether or not there are witnesses, Schumer doesn't believe him. And that's really the problem and it may be difficult for people to understand why these two gentlemen are presenting such blatantly different views of the rules that are being presented.

And you can go back and look at -- I hate to bring it up anyway because it's not directly relevant, but Merrick Garland, who was going to be nominated by President Obama to the Supreme Court, and ultimately because of a power play by Mitch McConnell didn't even get a hearing. That shadow is over everything here, because Democrats think Mitch McConnell is capable of doing anything, anything for power.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Dana Bash is on Capitol Hill watching all of this unfold. Dana, I just want to set the scene for our viewers. The chief justice of the United States will be presiding over this trial. We will swear, and Senator Jim Inhofe, Republican from Oklahoma, couldn't be there the other day because of a family illness. He'll be sworn in. And then the Republicans will introduce their rule proposal and there will be, what, a two-hour debate?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We are going to see the beginning of what you just heard both leaders, Democratic and Republican, the opening salvos of that debate. Look, what Jake was saying is so key, and I think there is underscoring. Maybe it's obvious to people watching at home how bitterly partisan things are here, but the fact is that it hasn't been like that in the past.

Now, there was a very different situation 21 years ago. There's Diane Feinstein going in. You see the senators start to actually file in for jury duty, effectively. But it was a very different situation for a lot of reasons. One of the reasons is because a lot of President Clinton's fellow Democrats were really mad at him because he lied to them.

Tom Daschle, who was the top Democrat at the time, who negotiated with the top Republican, told me in the past couple of months that that was hanging over also, that he was just really upset because that president lied. You have a completely different dynamic now where facts and lies and truth are being very blurred, if you want to just be blunt about it, on the Republican side.

And what the president did is being defended, is being sidestepped and is going to be in short order on the Senate floor defended by his very own counsel as just the way it is, as just the power that he is supposed to have.

But in the short term, we're going to see a big fight on rules and a big fight on how this is going to be. Democrats are doing everything they can to frame it as fairness, and Republicans are saying, give me a break. If you wanted fairness, you should have done it in the House. But, again, keep in mind what Mitt Romney told Manu Raju. Don't overstep. Don't go to an 11 right now because then we might not be with you down the road when we are considering being with you on witnesses.

TAPPER: All right. Dana Bash, thank you so much.

I want to bring in former Senate Parliamentarian Alan Frumin. Just a quick question here. Who is going to be debating this? Is this going to be Democratic senators or Republican senators or?

ALAN FRUMIN, SENATE PARLIAMENTARIAN EMERITUS: Under the impeachment rules, the debate, it will be considered arguments and arguments and arguments are made by the parties, by the House managers and the counsel for the president. Unless they close the doors, unless the Senate votes by a majority rule to close the doors, you should not hear senators' voices at all in argument with respect to the basic resolution or any amendment that Senator Schumer might want to send up.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that might be a relief for some people that you're actually hearing from different people. But I think the key here, and Dana was talking about it, is this issue of witnesses, and you heard Mitch McConnell talk about it.

[13:05:01]

Sort of an aside, well, you know, the House declined. TAPPER: He said, they declined to hear from witnesses.

BORGER: If they wanted witnesses, they could have had those fights, but they decided their inquiry was finished and so they moved ahead.

What Mitch McConnell failed to say, of course, is that the president told people, I don't really want you to testify. The people who did testify before the House Intelligence Committee testified under subpoena from the House Intelligence Committee, and that the White House stonewalled witnesses and said, you should not testify. Yes, the House made a decision that they didn't want to drag this out over months and months and months into an election in the courts, and so they did truncate what they were going to do. But this notion that the House could have heard from witnesses like John Bolton, et cetera, is not accurate.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes. I think the question is, you could hear Mitch McConnell talking to the senators we're focusing on, right, those four senators whether or not they're going to vote with Democrats. And in some ways, it will be interesting to see if they pick up the arguments he's making now, right, this argument about, well, the House has its process and it's not the Senate's role to overstep that process. He also talked about executive privilege covering some of these witnesses.

You're a Democrat, you obviously want to be talking to Mitt Romney too. But Mitt Romney, and remember, at least his reputation has been that he's something of a flip-flopper, right? In 2012, he really wanted the endorsement of Donald Trump. In 2016, he denounced him as a conman and a fraud. And then later, once Donald Trump was elected, he interviewed for a position in the cabinet.

So I think for Democrats, they obviously want a message to these folks, but I think for those GOP senators, they really have to decide how isolated do you want to be. And you talked about Mitt Romney being somewhat isolated, but I think going forward, this is one of the biggest votes they're going to be making as a Republican. Do they want to remain in good standing with Trump and the Republican Party?

BLITZER: I was going to say, Kohn, it's clear that Mitch McConnell seems to be very confident that he will have enough votes to defeat Schumer and the Democrats.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're at this great moment of history. It's been mentioned before, only the third time in history for a [resident to be impeached or a Senate trial to begin. No president has been removed. And yet McConnell is doing this as if this is bringing any piece of legislation to the floor.

The Senate is very different now. When I first came to Washington, sometimes there were things that were in question when they came to the Senate floor. You could sit in the gallery and watch the senators debate on big questions. They don't do that anymore. Mitch McConnell brings things to the floor when they're cooked, when the math is done, when he can pass this judge, when they cut a deal on spending. He is bringing this to the floor now because he has the votes. And so we're going to have a big debate today. It is not going to change anything today. We should know that going in. Today's debate will not change today.

The question is can the Democrats do this in a way that changes things when you do get to the next round. At the end of the presentations, when the witness question comes up again, can the Democrats plant the seeds today to, A, convince Mitt Romney, convince Susan Collins, convince Lisa Murkowski, and one more, who is it, Cory Gardner, Lamar Alexander, Rob Portman, we shall see. Can they plant the seeds today there and can they plant the seeds today out there to get people watching.

One of the remarkable things about this is that public opinion has stayed pretty locked in. Yes, our new poll today says 70 percent of Americans want witnesses. But our poll also says 51 percent say, yes, convict and remove from office, 45 percent say no. A new Monmouth poll, 49 percent say convict and remove from office, 47 percent say no. Those basic numbers have been locked. If they don't move, Mitch McConnell is not going to change his strategy.

TAPPER: And if you go a little deeper into it, it's also stayed pretty locked, independents, being about 48/48 on whether or not to remove President Trump from office and voters in battleground states also being more split than the nation at large.

KING: Very important point, because McConnell is not looking at national numbers. He's thinking about his majority. And he also knows it's a presidential election year. His majority will rise and fall with the power of the United States. How he does -- not necessarily whether he wins nationally. how he does in the states where key Republicans are on the ballot, because there's no ticket splitting left in America, one or two states. How President Trump does in your state depends whether or not you're going to get elected.

TAPPER: And, Jeffrey Toobin -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I just couldn't agree more that McConnell is looking at protecting his majority, which means, in fact, protecting Donald Trump's presidency. But to try to look at this in a broader way, this president has been impeached by the House of Representatives. And the United States Senate is staging a sham of a trial right now with no witnesses, no documents and late night, you know, viewing so that most people won't see it.

And the fact that the Senate is treating this process, it seems, based on the likely outcome, with such incredible disdain for the facts of the case and the constitutional role that the Senate is supposed to play is, I think, a disgrace today and will be seen as a disgrace historically.

[13:10:15]

BORGER: And I remember when House Intelligence Republicans were complaining that the Democrats were meeting in the basement because it was a SCIF, it was a secure location, but they were complaining, oh, they're meeting in the basement. And now you have a Senate that's going to have an impeachment trial that could go on into the middle of the night, dare I say.

So there is a lot of hypocrisy here, and I think what Mitch McConnell, as you've all said, is thinking about his Senate. He also made the point that this -- John and I were talking about this -- this aligns with the Clinton impeachment rules. These are not the Clinton impeachment rules. They're different from the Clinton impeachment rules, but he said, I can do whatever I want. Nobody will dictate procedure to U.S. senators. So Mitch McConnell is doing everything he can to protect his Senate majority, and, oh, by the way, protect the president of the United States.

BLITZER: We're standing by for the start of the rules. That will go on for several hours. Tomorrow, we're told, the actual opening arguments by the House managers, the Democrats will begin about 24 hours, 12 hours one day, 12 hours the next day. The White House Counsel will then have 24 hours if they want to take all that time to rebut, make the case on behalf of the president.

This is going to be a dramatic few days here in Washington. We're waiting now for the Senate to come back into session. We're waiting for the chief justice of the United States. Our special live CNN coverage of the Senate impeachment trial of President Donald Trump will resume right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:15:00]

TAPPER: Welcome back. We're standing by for the debate on the rules of the Senate impeachment trial and for the Senate to come back into session. Meanwhile, House Democrats have responded to the latest Trump defense legal brief.

Let's get right to CNN Senior Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju on Capitol Hill with that. Manu, what are they saying?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're reciting their arguments that they have been making first on time. This is the latest and the back and forth of the legal filings that have been going between the House Democrats and the president's team. The president's team had filed its own legal brief just a couple days ago, or yesterday, I should say, calling the Democrats' case flimsy, calling it a charade, and so this was a response to that.

And what the House Democrats now are saying, they're saying that it's clear from the president's response that he would rather discuss anything other than what he actually did, and they contend no amount of legal rhetoric can hide the fact that President Trump exemplified why the framers included the impeachment mechanism in this Constitution.

Now, this is just a preview of what we're going to hear on the Senate floor, which will begin momentarily, when they start debating amendments to that Senate resolution that details the parameters of how the trial will go forward. And then starting tomorrow, we'll hear the actual merits of the case that Democrats plan to lay out beginning tomorrow.

So this latest filing, just the latest in the back and forth between the president's team, Democrats contending the president did everything that the framers were concerned about after the president's team said there is absolutely nothing impeachable in there. So that is a sign of just exactly how this argument will shape up as the Senate doors open here in just a matter of minutes, guys.

BLITZER: Yes. Chuck Schumer, the minority leader, keeps saying what the Republican majority wants is a cover-up, not a fair trial at all. Manu, stand by.

I want to bring back Dana Bash, who is also up on Capitol Hill watching all of this unfold. Dana, they're about to resume this trial, and we will hear some bitter arguments on both sides.

BASH: That's right. And the challenge that Democrats are going to have in the short term, and ultimately in the long term, is that what Manu just read, which is the crux and the core of the case that House Democrats are prosecuting in this trial against President Trump are going to go by the wayside in this first important day of history because the focus is going to be on process. And that's what we've heard, really, all morning long from the Democratic leader, from the Republican leader, a back and forth over whether the process of this trial is there.

BLITZER: All right. Dana, hold on for a moment, the chief justice of the United States.

CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT: I am aware of one senator present who was unable to take the impeachment oath last Thursday. Will he please rise and raise his right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald John Trump, president of the United States, now pending, you will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help you God?

INHOFE: I do.

ROBERTS: The secretary will note the name of the senator who has just taken the oath, and will present the oath book to him for signature.

ROBERTS: The sergeant at arms will make the proclamation.

SERGEANT AT ARMS: Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye, all persons are commanded to keep silent on pain of imprisonment while the Senate of the United States is sitting for the trial of the articles of impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives against Donald John Trump, president of the United States.

[13:20:00]

MCCONNELL: Mr. Chief Justice? ROBERTS: The majority leader is recognized.

MCCONNELL: I'd like to state that for the information of all senators, the trial briefs filed yesterday by the parties have been printed, and are now at each senator's desk.

ROBERTS: The following documents will be submitted to the Senate for printing in the Senate journal: The precept, issued January 16, 2020; the writ of summons issued on January 16, 2020; and the receipt of summons dated January 16, 2020.

The following documents, which were received by secretary of the Senate, will be submitted to the Senate for printing in the Senate journal pursuant to the order of January 16, 2020: The answer of Donald John Trump, president of the United States, to the articles of impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives against him on January 16, 2020, received by the secretary of the Senate on January 18, 2020; the trial brief filed by the House of Representatives received by the secretary of the Senate on January 18, 2020; the trial brief filed by the president received by the secretary of the Senate on January 20, 2020; the replication of the House of Representatives received by the secretary of the Senate on January 20, 2020; and the rebuttal brief filed by the House of Representatives, received by the secretary of the Senate on January 21, 2020.

Without objection, the foregoing documents will be printed in the congressional record.

I note the presence in the House of the Senate -- in the -- in the Senate chamber of the managers on the part of the House of Representatives, and counsel for the president of the United States.

MCCONNELL: Mr. Chief Justice?

ROBERTS: The majority leader is recognized.

MCCONNELL: I send to the desk a list of floor privileges for closed sessions. It's been agreed to by both sides. I ask that it be inserted in the reference and agreed to by unanimous consent.

ROBERTS: Without objection.

MCCONNELL: For the further information of all the senators, I'm about to send a resolution to the desk providing for an outline of the next steps in these proceedings. It will be debatable by parties for two hours, equally divided. Senator Schumer will then send an amendment to the resolution to the desk. Once that amendment has been offered and reported, we'll have a brief recess. When we reconvene, Senator Schumer's amendment will be debatable by the parties for two hours. Upon the use or yielding back of time, I intend to move to table Senator Schumer's amendment.

And so, Mr. Chief Justice, I send a resolution to the desk and ask that it be read.

ROBERTS: The clerk will read the resolution. CLERK: Senate Resolution 483, to provide for related procedures concerning the articles of impeachment against Donald John Trump, president of the United States. Resolved: that the House of Representatives shall file its record with the secretary of the Senate, which will consist of those publicly-available materials that have been submitted to or produced by the House Judiciary Committee, including transcripts of public hearings or markups in any materials printed by the House of Representatives or the House Judiciary Committee, pursuant to House Resolution 660.

Materials in this record will be admitted into evidence subject to any hearsay, evidentiary or other objections that the President may make after opening presentations are concluded.

All materials filed pursuant to this paragraph shall be printed and made available to all parties. The President and the House of Representatives shall have until 9 AM on Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 to file any motions permitted under the rules of impeachment, with the exception of motions to subpoena witnesses or documents or any other evidentiary motions.

Responses to any such motions shall be filed no later than 11 AM on Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020. All materials filed pursuant to this paragraph shall be filed with the Secretary and be printed and made available to all parties.

Arguments on such motions shall begin at 1 PM on Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 and each side may determine the number of persons to make its presentation, following which the Senate shall deliberate, if so ordered, under the impeachment rules and vote on any such motions.

[13:25:00]

Following the disposition of such motions or if no motions are made, then the House of Representatives shall make its presentation in support of the articles of impeachment for a period of time not to exceed 24 hours over up to three session days. Following the House of Representatives presentation, the President shall make his presentation for a period not to exceed 24 hours over up to three session days.

Each side may determine the number of persons to make its presentation. Upon the conclusion of the President's presentation, senators may question the parties for a period of time not to exceed 16 hours. Upon the conclusion of questioning by the Senate, there shall be four hours of argument by the parties, equally divided, followed by deliberation by the Senate, if so ordered under the impeachment rules, on the question of whether it shall be in order to consider and debate under the impeachment rules any motion to subpoena witnesses or documents.

The Senate, without any intervening action, motion or amendment, shall then decide by the yays and nays whether it shall be in order to consider and debate under the impeachment rules any motion to subpoena witnesses or documents. Following the disposition of that question, other motions provided under the impeachment rules shall be in order. If the Senate agrees to allow either the House of Representatives or the President to subpoena witnesses, the witnesses shall first be deposed and the Senate shall decide after deposition which witnesses shall testify pursuant to the impeachment rules. No testimony shall be admissible in the Senate unless the parties have had an opportunity to depose such witnesses.

At the conclusion of deliberations by the Senate, the Senate shall vote on each article of impeachment.

ROBERTS: The resolution is arguable by the parties for two hours equally divided. Mr. Manager Schiff, are you a proponent or opponent of this motion?

SCHIFF: ... managers are in opposition to this resolution.

ROBERTS: Thank you. Mr. Cipollone, are you a proponent or opponent of the motion?

CIPOLLONE: Mr. Chief Justice, we are a proponent of the motion.

ROBERTS: Then Mr. Cipollone, your side may proceed first and will be able to reserve rebuttal time, if you wish.

CIPOLLONE: Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. Majority Leader McConnell, Democratic Leader Schumer, senators, my name is Pat Cipollone, I am here as counsel to the President of the United States. Our team is proud to be here representing President Trump.

We support this resolution. It is a fair way to proceed with this trial. It is modeled on the Clinton resolution, which had a hundred senators supporting it, the last time this body considered an impeachment.

It requires the House managers to stand up and make their opening statement and make their case. They have delayed bringing this impeachment to this House for 33 days -- 33 days, to this body. And it's time to start with this trial.

It's a fair process. They will have the opportunity to stand up and make their opening statement. They will get 24 hours to do that. Then the president's attorneys will have a chance to respond. After that, all of you will have 16 hours to ask whatever questions you have of either side.

Once that's finished, and you have all of that information, we will proceed to the question of witnesses, and some of the more difficult questions that will come before this body.

We are in favor of this. We believe that once you hear those initial presentations, the only conclusion will be that the president has done absolutely nothing wrong, and that these articles of impeachment do not begin to approach the standard required by the Constitution. And in fact, they themselves will establish nothing beyond those articles. You look at those articles alone, and you will determine that there is absolutely no case.

So we respectfully ask you to adopt this resolution so that we can begin with this process. It is long past time to start this proceeding, and we are here today to do it. And we hope that the House managers will agree with us and begin this proceeding today.

[13:30:00]

We reserve the remainder of our time for rebuttal.

SCHIFF: Mr. Chief Justice, senators, and counsel to the president, the House managers, on behalf of the House of Representatives, rise in opposition to Leader McConnell's resolution.

Let me begin by summarizing why. Last week, we came before you to present the articles of impeachment against the president of the United States for only the third time in our history. Those articles charged President Donald John Trump with abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.

The misconduct set out in those articles is the most serious ever charged against a president.

The first article, abuse of power, charges the president with soliciting a foreign power to help him cheat in the next election. Moreover, it alleges -- and we will prove -- that he sought to coerce Ukraine into helping him cheat by withholding official acts.

Two official acts: a meeting that the new president of Ukraine desperately sought with President Trump at the White House, to show the world and the Russians in particular that the Ukrainian president had a good relationship with his most important patron, the president of the United States.

END