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CNN Live Event/Special

Interview with Noah Feldman; Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT); Mitt Romney Calls for John Bolton Testimony. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 27, 2020 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, we are on the clock. In just about two and a half hours, President Trump's legal team is set to present day two of their defense in the Senate impeachment trial.

Right now, we're digesting this "New York Times" reporting on a draft manuscript of John Bolton's book, where the president explicitly told Bolton -- then his National Security advisor, right? -- that he did want to withhold military aid to Ukraine. And the big part is why? Because he wanted them to agree to investigate Joe Biden.

[10:35:10]

What does this mean? Let's talk it over with Noah Feldman. If you watched the House impeachment hearings, you remember his face and his (INAUDIBLE) Judiciary Committee and set the table for the argument that what President Trump did was unconstitutional and in fact a high crime and misdemeanor. Also a constitutional scholar, teaches law at Harvard Law School and that's where he joins me from now.

It's good to have you. Manu Raju gave us a little bit of reporting here, professor, that Mitt Romney -- the senator from Utah, obviously, who's been most outspoken about witnesses -- said Bolton must testify. What does he represent in this dynamic to you?

NOAH FELDMAN, TESTIFIED IN HOUSE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS: Bolton is all about the underlying question of whether this trial is a legitimate trial, is it a real trial. And Mitt Romney is a significant actor in this, of course, because if he gets a couple of Republicans -- three Republicans -- to join him, then Bolton will in fact testify.

The reason this really matters is that it's not just Trump who's on trial here. The Senate's on trial, too, to see if they can fulfill their constitutional responsibilities. And so to me, what's really significant about the timing of the revelations about Bolton's book, right in the middle of this process, is there's still time for the Senate to say, to make this a real trial, we're going to have to have witnesses.

CUOMO: Right. Now, we do not expect the Trump defense team to bring it up because you don't introduce bad information into your own case unless you have to. So there seem to be two points of pushback. Professor -- I think

what's the weaker one first, but you tell me -- executive privilege, that if you call Bolton, the president will just say you can't bring anything. But he doesn't even work at the White House any more. What's your analysis on how big an obstacle to Bolton's testimony privilege is?

FELDMAN: I think the key thing to understand about executive privilege is that ordinarily, the president can only invoke it if Congress is trying to get something from him. But the Congress in this case, the Senate would be asking Bolton to testify. So if Bolton agrees to testify, then somehow Trump's lawyers would have to say, wait a minute, executive privilege. But that ordinarily would not be the effective way for them to block someone from testifying, so I think the executive privilege argument, in that sense, practically is pretty weak.

It does have some principled basis in the idea that the president should be able to have private conversations with his senior advisors about stuff that's actually about national security, but that doesn't seem to have been the case here.

And in the same way that you lose your privilege of your confidentiality with your lawyer if you're talking about a crime, you could imagine the logic that the president should also lose whatever executive privilege he might have had if he was discussing impeachable acts with Bolton.

CUOMO: Right. And that takes you to credibility. The defense counsel there, you know, the defenders of the president, they're already putting this out. Oh, it's just about the book, and his website for the book came out the same time the "New York Times'" reporting did, you know he just wants to sell more copies.

Maybe so. But when it comes to credibility, how do you not take Bolton over this president when he has lied as recently as about whether or not he knew Lev Parnas and whether or not, you know, he knew what Parnas was up to? When it comes to credibility, how does Bolton lose against this president?

FELDMAN: I think Bolton inevitably will do well here, partly because we already know a little bit about what Bolton was thinking. Remember, he told Dr. Fiona Hill and other aides what he was thinking about this process. And so this -- what he's saying now is completely continuous with what he said before. His testimony appears to be completely internally consistent, and that's going to have to bolster his credibility.

CUOMO: Right. And if it's true that he went to the attorney general to talk about it, he told others who came to him to go and seek counsel about it, those are also very material facts.

Professor Feldman, thank you as always.

FELDMAN: And --

CUOMO: Yes, sir?

FELDMAN: Thank you very much.

CUOMO: OK.

FELDMAN: I was just going to say,

CUOMO: Go ahead.

FELDMAN: I was just going to say as well, that Bolton has long had a reputation as a very savvy and skillful bureaucratic actor behind the scenes. So if he says he had phone calls with other senior government officials, he had those phone calls and he'll have records of those calls.

CUOMO: Records, that will be the key. How could he demonstrate what he says. Thank you for adding that, Professor. Helpful.

[10:39:15]

Senators are making their way back to Capitol Hill right now. We're going to speak live with one, next. Of course, what do they think of Bolton?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, senators are arriving back on Capitol Hill for day two of the defenders of President Trump's opening arguments against impeaching President Trump. This all comes, of course, with a rather stark backdrop. "The New York Times" just published a story about a draft manuscript by former National Security advisor John Bolton.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: In it, Bolton claims the president wanted to continue freezing U.S. military aid to Ukraine until the country helped with the investigation into Democratic rivals, including former Vice President Joe Biden.

Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut is joining us now from Capitol Hill. Senator, thanks for joining us. What's your reaction to Bolton's claim?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, it's obviously not surprising. We've known for a long time that this wasn't a rogue operation, that this had to be directed from the very top. Gordon Sondland was talking directly to the president and of course, John Bolton was getting his orders from the president as well.

[10:45:03]

He may have refrained to pass those down because he believed that this was a drug deal, that this was something massively corrupt and likely illegal. But there is absolutely no doubt that this was directed by President Trump.

And now I think this makes it almost completely impossible for Senate Republicans to deny witnesses. We have to hear John Bolton's story, and it's going to affect the case that the president's lawyers make. I just don't think they can say any longer that this wasn't coming from the president. Maybe now they will direct their defense towards trying to defend the inquiries and the investigations that the president was demanding.

BLITZER: Republican Senator Mitt Romney says it will be important now to hear from Bolton, and he says it's very likely there are other senators -- Republican senators -- who will join him. How much stock do you put into those words from Romney?

MURPHY: Well, I certainly believe that Senator Romney is sincere about wanting to hear witnesses. But last week, unfortunately, you were seeing Republicans start to get more and more pressure from the White House and McConnell to close ranks.

And I think by the end of last week, it was more unlikely that we were going to hear witnesses, in part because the House managers' case was so strong and they didn't want to make it harder on themselves to acquit the president if they were to hear from people like Mick Mulvaney and John Bolton.

I think this week, it's going to be, as I said, almost impossible for them to hold that line. And I would hope that you will start to see, over the next 48 hours, a handful of Republicans breaking with the president and Senator McConnell and putting forth a plan to hear from witnesses.

And by the way, this idea that we'll be here for months just doesn't hold water. Remember, the president didn't go to court to stop Gordon Sondland from testifying, he didn't stop other White House officials like Fiona Hill from testifying. And so I don't think he'll go to court to try to stop John Bolton from telling this story as well.

TAPPER: Senator, it's Jake Tapper. I understand that you don't think the testimony of anyone that the Republicans have talked about -- the whistleblower, Vice President Biden, Hunter Biden -- I understand that you don't think it's germane, that you don't think it's relevant.

But Republicans control the Senate. If presented with the option of, OK, we will get Bolton but you have to give us Hunter Biden or the whistleblower, would Democrats be willing to make that deal, given the reality of the fact that Republicans control the Senate and don't want to help you make the case against him?

MURPHY: So the reason that I feel so strongly about not turning the Senate into this political sideshow, where we bring in these "Fox News" conspiracy theories onto the Senate floor, is because of the precedent that that sets.

We have a solemn responsibility. We are supposed to come to a conclusion on the charges that are presented to us by the House of Representatives. If we create a precedent in which the accused, the president, can just use the floor of the Senate in order to destroy his political rivals, irrespective of whether it has anything to do with the underlying charges, then I'm not sure we're ever going to rescue impeachment proceedings from the kind of circus that it will get turned into here.

So I don't think that that deal is in the best interests of the country, and that's why I'm very reluctant to entertain the idea.

TAPPER: What about the idea of trying to subpoena Simon and Schuster for the book manuscript, which might theoretically be easier than trying to subpoena Bolton's testimony?

MURPHY: Well, again, I just don't believe this idea that Bolton can't testify. Remember, Sondland was the ambassador to the E.U. when he came and testified and told his story. John Bolton doesn't work for the White House any longer, and he's not going to testify to any more sensitive facts than people like Morrison and Hill and Sondland and Volker were.

And so if they didn't go to court to stop that testimony, I don't think they will here, in part because they knew they'd fail if they tried, and they'll fail here as well.

TAPPER: Senator Chris Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, thank you so much for your time, sir. We appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thanks.

[10:49:20]

TAPPER: We're about to hear from Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. Stand by. We'll take a quick break, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I can't begin to tell you how John Bolton's testimony would ultimately play on a final decision, but it's relevant and therefore I'd like to hear it. And what impact that might have would be dependent upon all the facts associated with it. We'd hear from, obviously, the prosecution and defense as to what was relevant and what was said and how that might influence our final vote.

But I can't begin to tell you how that would be resolved. I'm --

(CROSSTALK)

ROMNEY: -- as I've indicated, I see myself as a senator-juror. And in that capacity, I will maintain impartiality to the extent I can.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator, have you spoken to any of your Republican colleagues? Do you get the sense that more of them will be on board with voting for witnesses? Four of you need to say yes. Do you think there are four votes?

ROMNEY: I think it's increasingly likely that other Republicans will join those of us who think we should hear from John Bolton --

CUOMO: All right. Now, that is the provocative part of the Romney statement in my take, because it can't be a surprise that Republicans think Bolton would be bad for the case for the president, right? Because we know that he's had misgivings about this entire situation.

[10:55:02]

Here's what to watch. Do the Republicans hold their presser today as scheduled? What do we hear about the lunch that they have together? That's how we will know about how they think this plays for them, what this means to the process. Because Bolton will go to the credibility of the president, what he knew about Rudy Giuliani, what he knew about the process. So we'll be watching all of those things.

The Democrats are supposed to hold a presser, not too long from now. How big do they play this? What do they use it as in terms of a push. Remember, we're talking about a lot of legal concepts. However, this, at the end of the day, is about politics and votes.

So as we go to break now, what will the president's defense team do about Bolton? Will they do anything about it? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:00]