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Trump Team Attacks Bidens On Second Day Of Arguments; Kareem Abdul Jabbar Remembers Kobe Bryant; Kobe Bryant In His Own Words. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired January 28, 2020 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Chris Cuomo here. You're watching special coverage of the Trump impeachment trial day two, now over; the defense team, fast and furious attacks on the Bidens, acknowledgement that yes, Bolton could have some dirt on Trump and the return of Ken Starr to the impeachment stage, but he's like in reverse now.

Let's bring in great minds to break it all down. Thank you, everybody, very much. Michael Zeldin, good to see you here, sir.

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, sir. How are you?

CUOMO: How are you surprised were you? Let's move it around. Everybody can make the point that they think is interesting, but what jumped out at me, shocked actually to hear Jane Raskin by all accounts, competent attorney by many insider accounts, the key to keeping the President out of trouble during the Russia probe, she says today, Rudy Giuliani, who Rudy who? Rudy? You think he was important? Listen to Jane Raskin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE RASKIN, MEMBER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEGAL TEAM: Mr. Giuliani is just a minor player that shiny object designed to distract you.

Senators, I urge you most respectfully, do not be distracted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Michael, the President said in the perfect phone call Rudy Giuliani. That's the guy and Zelensky says, Rudy Giuliani, that's the guy. And the President says talk to Rudy Giuliani. He is a great mayor. He'll be helpful.

Everybody involved, whether positively or negatively points to Rudy Giuliani, the President's excuse for why he wouldn't have told Lev Parnas the things he told him on videotape was, oh, I wouldn't have said that to him. I would have said it to Rudy Giuliani.

How is Rudy Giuliani a sidepiece?

ZELDIN: Well, he's actually not a sidepiece. He features more prominently than I think Jane argued. I think what Jane was trying to say was that Giuliani began his quest for information about Ukrainian involvement in the presidential election of 2016 in order to help Trump defend himself against the Russia collusion allegations, and it's from that, that all of his activities stem.

So I think what she was trying to say was, there was a legitimate basis for him to be in Ukraine and be asking about these things, and that it wasn't using Fiona Hill's language, just a drop in in 2019 on a political era, and I think that's the point that she was trying to make.

CUOMO: All right, so, Professor, when you teach Law students, you use this thing that they call the ab initio from the beginning analysis. Let's look at it in the beginning, and that's how we'll know what it was. Not here.

However, it started even if it's this bogus Crowdstrike that is owned by Ukraine, which it isn't -- and they're hiding a server, which doesn't exist because they use a Cloud system. He went into much more than that.

He openly said, I want to get rid of the ambassador because she was in my way. He openly said he was trying to get dirt on the Bidens. He was using Lev Parnas. Do you think this can have sway as an argument?

MICHAEL GERHARDT, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA: I'm not sure it can. I think that it will have sway in some quarters. Again, part of the objective of the White House lawyers is to provide cover for Republican senators to be able to acquit the President and move on to other things.

However, if you scratch it a little bit and look at it a little more closely, you find out, it's just tossing them off as a bit player, it is perhaps taking too much liberty with the facts.

Giuliani was carrying out the President's wishes, and those wishes were to freeze the aid to provide leverage, so he could get a favor out of the Ukrainian President, and the favor was to simply announce the opening of investigation.

CUOMO: He is carrying around a letter and said that.

GERHARDT: You can't erase that. He said that. That's a fact. He is carrying a letter saying that. He said it himself in a few different forms.

CUOMO: Yes. So okay, so that's that one under the heading of something for everybody. Another thing that happened today was they went after the Bidens. Now they say, well, the House Managers opened the door to that.

That is a term of art in evidence law that we don't need to deal with here, because there is no rules of evidence going on here. They did it because they wanted to. How effective was it?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it's not effective for people who are paying attention and who are looking at this with an unbiased view, but it's effective in the sense that they've been talking about the Bidens from day one. When they see the House Managers opened the door, but they've been

screaming the name Biden for weeks and weeks, you know, since this first came out, and it's effective for the people who want something else to look at.

You know, we're focusing on the President's conduct here; the President's behavior, the President's abuse of power. If you can say hey, you know, someone else did some bad stuff, too and the poor President was just trying to look at that problem, and take care of that problem and that's why he did this. It's a distraction technique.

[01:05:12]

RODGERS: So I mean, for people looking for that to be their reason for acquittal, it's effective.

CUOMO: Asha, let me ask you this, the idea of what Robert Ray put out there today, which is all right, it wasn't a perfect phone call. He should have done things a different way. But no crimes, no crimes even alleged. Was that the most persuasive cell that you heard? I know it's a low bar, but was it?

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I mean, I didn't -- I didn't think it was particularly persuasive. But I think he was hoping for a moment where maybe President Trump wasn't watching and where he could throw that into kind of, you know, wink-wink to the Republicans like, okay, we all know this is not great.

I also wonder if precisely because he has said this in public on your show, Chris, and he knows that there's all of these video clips, he probably needs to stay honest or without being discredited by, you know, the House Managers, if they, you know, bring that up in the question and answer.

But I mean, I think that the question isn't whether it's a perfect phone call or not. That's the whole point. It's whether he was trying to leverage his authority for something of personal benefit? And Rudy Giuliani, by the way, is central to that and discredits the whole Hunter Biden issue because if there was a legitimate investigation, it would have gone to the Department of Justice, not to his personal attorney.

CUOMO: Right now, Cipollone, he is the White House lawyer. That's another interesting dynamic here for you to follow at home.

This man is not the President's personal lawyer, which is Rudy Giuliani or whoever else he appoints at the moment, he defends the presidency. So these are arguments he's making on behalf of the presidency and Zeldin, and the end of the argument was Dershowitz tonight. Cipollone finished, but I really didn't know why to be honest.

You know, Dershowitz was their last word in terms of, listen, the founders knew what they wanted this to be about, and it wasn't this. I argued it about Nixon. I hated him. I argued it about Clinton. I loved him. I'm arguing it now, and he didn't say anything about what he thought about Trump.

But how heavy was the argument in terms of this was not what they intended.

ZELDIN: So this was the one-two punch the ended tonight's primetime, which was Robert Ray, who sincerely believes, as he and I've written in four articles in the last month, that you need a crime for there to be an impeachable offense, and that was followed up by Dershowitz. So this was a more practical -- I've been a practicing lawyer, and this is what I think about the practice of law.

And then Dershowitz says, I'm a constitutional scholar, and I support that view, and so did Madison and Hamilton and everybody else.

I don't think that view is correct. I've written with Robert in contradiction to his point of view. Alan and I have debated this as well. It's a compelling argument for someone who doesn't want to really dig into what I think was in play at the time that high crimes and misdemeanors was put into the Constitution.

But again, it was I think, a well-argued argument even though I think it was not correct.

CUOMO: Stick around. Let me take a break. When we come back, we're going to take a look at where it is all sized up now because we don't know that they're going to keep on going as long as they could.

I think they started the day with 21 hours and six minutes left. Ending early, why would you do that? It's a message they may want to send. We'll discuss it when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:12:12]

CUOMO: Pam Bondi, former A.G. of Florida, some of you got to know her because there was some controversy surrounding her dropping of a corruption investigation into Trump University. Nevertheless, she's on the President's defense team.

She spent half an hour giving this President what the Ukrainians would not, publicly attacking his political rival, Joe Biden.

Bondi's presentation failed to meet the standards of Trump's own team. However, they've repeatedly claimed House Managers failed to tell senators the whole story.

So how did she fail? Well, three points that Ms. Bondi arguably omitted. One, the investigation into Burisma was inactive when Joe Biden was pushing for the prosecutor's removal. The reason that Biden, U.S. diplomats, European governments, the International Monetary Fund, they all wanted the prosecutor out was because he was not tough when it came to going after corrupt companies, including Burisma.

In fact, Democratic senators sent a letter naming Burisma as one of the companies to take on. All right now, the idea that Shokin was the prosecutor who they wanted

taken out. Now who did? That includes two Republicans in this jury -- Rob Portman and Ron Johnson. The other point that Trump's defenders keep making incorrectly is that you must have a crime. Yet, we have yet to hear what crime Joe or Hunter Biden for that matter may have committed here in the United States or even in Ukraine.

Trump's own D.O.J. has never pursued any charges, and the Ukrainian prosecutors who did look into this said definitively, Hunter Biden, "did not violate anything in their laws."

So while Pam Bondi tried to push a version of this President who is somehow tough on corruption, the facts are not on her side.

How? Since taking office, this President killed a bipartisan anti- corruption rule. The latest reporting is he tried to make it easier to bribe foreign governments. I've said on this show several times, what Hunter Biden did was arguably wrong. It looks bad. It doesn't pass the smell test.

The former VP says he'll have rules against what his son did if he is elected. But none of that answers why the President chose to go about this the way he did, and why he has chosen to hide his perfect alibi. Think about that. Nobody hides an alibi. Although it is one word.

Let's bring back our legal minds about this. It's good to have you all back. Professor, let me ask you this question.

[01:15:10]

CUOMO: Going after the Bidens the way she did, the way she did. That's the key part. That gets you to this section of asking questions from the senators must fill. That would have been funny. It might have been the highlight of the show.

So Professor, all of these things that I just listed, and there are many others in terms of her recitation of facts today. What's the risk? Yes, you put stank on Biden. But what's the risk about when you get asked questions about what you presented?

GERHARDT: Well, there's a lot of risk. I mean, one of the basic ones is very simple, and the House Managers may stress this and that is, no matter what you say about the Bidens, none of it makes Trump innocent.

So you can put -- you can dump all --

CUOMO: So let's take a debate on that. And in fact, I want more of you guys to weigh in and show all the panel of everybody we have here.

So this is a big point for people. Okay? And I know you guys don't see it that way. But remember, to the lay people, the people who are watching this at home, well, if the Bidens were doing bad stuff in Ukraine, then wasn't the President helping me out by going after them? And doesn't all this then go away?

And if we hear the Bidens and you can make a good case that they had stank on them, if you can, isn't that absolving him?

GERHARDT: No, I mean, again, because, first of all, you just made the point, there's a proper way of doing it, and he didn't follow the proper way of doing it.

But then secondly, his preoccupation with the Biden's was his only interest in corruption, as it related to Ukraine. His own team gave him talking points about corruption more generally, which he did not bring up in the conversation with the President of Ukraine. Instead, he mentioned the Bidens five times.

And it just so happens at that same point in time in history, Joe Biden was beating the President in popularity polls. So there was a reason for the President to be preoccupied with Biden, and his made up corruption, in fact, ultimately what he wanted from the President of Ukraine wasn't a real investigation, just the announcement of an investigation.

So there was no genuine interest in corruption, but instead dirtying his rival there.

CARLSON: I'm not convinced, and here's why. He didn't do it the right way, and I have seen elitist insiders with the fancy rules. He's not a politician. He saw something was wrong. He knew the State Department wouldn't get at it. For all he knew, they helped Biden be dirty, so he did it his own way.

He got the guy he trusts, Rudy, and he got it done.

RODGERS: No, it doesn't work that way. I mean, the United States does not have other countries investigate our citizens. We're not even participating in the International Criminal Court for that reason. We just don't do it.

And besides, how do you send Rudy Giuliani over there to gather information when you have this entire apparatus around what's going on in Ukraine? He's not working with any of those people. I mean, how is this going to work? They're talking to people who weren't even part of the government anymore over there.

You know, it's not only not the way it should be done, it's not the way that's going to work if you're really trying to find that information.

And by the way, Rudy Giuliani who supposedly came back with troves of information, he's been teasing it on Twitter for months, any minute now, he is going to release all of this evidence and all of this information. He hasn't done it. Why? Because he doesn't have anything. Because they didn't collect any evidence, because there is no evidence.

GERHARDT: Chris, can I just add one thing real fast?

CUOMO: Sure.

GERHARDT: Those are closed door meetings that Giuliani had in Ukraine. In other words, the President complains about that, but the public wasn't involved in that. The Bidens weren't able to cross examine or anything else.

CUOMO: Right. That's a fair point in terms of process, but we're assuming people care about process. Michael Zeldin, hey, -- yes, who is talking to me? Who was that?

RANGAPPA: Oh, no, go ahead.

CUOMO: Oh, no, go ahead. Asha. What you're going to say is probably better than my question.

RANGAPPA: That was me. Yes, well, I think that the nail in the coffin on the Biden issue is, look, what was the endgame here of having Ukraine investigate the Bidens? We don't have an extradition treaty with Ukraine. So had they investigated these people and decided to charge them, what exactly was supposed to happen?

CUOMO: Did you just throw something?

RANGAPPA: It was an investigation that could literally --

CUOMO: Did you just throw something in a fit of pique? Is that what I just -- did you throw something to make a point?

RANGAPPA: I just --

CUOMO: Here's the satisfaction Asha. Truth.

RANGAPPA: I didn't throw it. I knocked a can over. I knocked a can over. There's water spilling on the carpet, but --

CUOMO: That's okay. The President's argument would be truth, Asha. I'm getting the truth out to the American people. Everybody hid it. They protected this Biden. The State Department, all the elitist, the Deep State, and I blew it open for you because I care. That's why you vote for me.

What happened to Asha?

RANGAPPA: It didn't go anywhere.

CUOMO: Well, but that's where it went. Now you know. That's his argument, Asha. Zeldin, you want to help while Asha cleans up whatever it is there.

ZELDIN: So I think --

CUOMO: I hope it's not flammable. What is it? Go ahead, Michael.

ZELDIN: I was just saying, I think the most disingenuous thing that Pam Bondi said was that the reason Joe Biden wanted to get rid of Shokin, the former corrupt prosecutor was because Shokin was going to investigate Burisma and his son.

CUOMO: Right. ZELDIN: That was just an untruth that is unacceptable.

CUOMO: But Shokin says it's true.

ZELDIN: He has disavowed that, really. And it is -- there's not a factual basis for it. So she could argue if she wants the conflict of interest or the appearance of conflict of interest all she wants, but when she says that, that was the basis for the firing, essentially accusing Joe Biden of corruption, that just is not acceptable advocacy because it's untrue.

CUOMO: All right. Is Asha okay, by the way? Put her back up there. I want to make sure she is okay. I rely on her too often. Good, good.

All right, everybody's OK. Listen, now, I know for you at home, you're like, I don't know, I don't know about this argument. I'm putting a lot of emphasis on this because I'm telling you, you're going to hear about it from a lot of Republican senators who are explaining their vote, how they feel about Biden, and what was exposed about them and how that creates some equivalency with the President. You're going to hear it.

And thank you very much to each and all of you for going through it with me. I appreciate that. And the audience will benefit from it.

All right. Now, the other big story of the night, the loss of Kobe Bryant, his young daughter, these seven others, these kids, their parents, the coach, the pilot.

A short time ago, LeBron James, who had a significant bond with Kobe Bryant just passed him in scoring, which was huge for him and huge for Kobe in a way. He just shared on social media, what he is feeling, and he says he is just getting started.

Another Lakers, great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He knew Kobe since he was a kid. We have a special one-on-one conversation with what he'll miss and what must be remembered. It's worth watching, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:26:06]

CUOMO: So many around the world are reeling after the helicopter crash their claimed Kobe Bryant, his 13-year-old daughter, Gianna and seven others and the pilot -- eight others.

The NTSB says there was an iPad that was used by the pilot. Now there is no black box, but they have the iPad recovered from the crash site. Investigators will be on scene for days. We'll see what it tells us.

Now, the NBA is postponing tomorrow night's Lakers-Clippers game because of the grief felt by the organization. Earlier, I spoke to one of the most legendary Lakers, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and he explained to me and to you, why this is so much bigger than basketball.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CUOMO: Kareem, as I said before, it is always a pleasure to speak

with you. But I'm really sorry to be speaking with you under these circumstances tonight.

KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, FORMER NBA PLAYER: It's been a very tough for several hours now, Chris. You know, it's very hard to deal with this, to see someone that had so much more to share with us gone so suddenly and so needlessly. It's really tough.

CUOMO: You, to those who get to know you, you are a very deep thinker. You believe things deeply. You take a lot of time to figure out what things mean to you. Where are you with trying to have any sense of how something like this could happen?

ABDUL-JABBAR: You can't make sense out of it, Chris. You know, things like this don't make sense. To have someone that had so much more to share with us that would have been a leader.

Look how Kobe made it possible for a lot of young athletes to leave high school and come into professional basketball and do well and succeed. Because he was the exception that proved the rule. He had that type of leadership quality. And he had so much more to give along those lines.

CUOMO: What I keep hearing said about him is that the basketball was like the third greatest quality that he had, that people didn't get a chance unless they knew him to appreciate his intelligence, and they didn't get a chance to see what he had made of himself in terms of what his family meant, what his kids meant.

ABDUL-JABBAR: You know what, his children meant so much to him. I stopped coaching with the Lakers, so I only got to know Natalia, kind of well, you know, the younger daughters I didn't know very well.

But for me, some of the things -- the one thing that -- Kobe's sense of humor was amazing. You know, I want to share this with people.

Luke Walton was having a weird day at practice. He, about three or four times up and down the court, Luke almost made a spectacular play, but just missed doing it. You know a block shot, a three-point shot and great defense, you know a tough rebound.

But you know, Luke was struggling and Kobe from the sideline sounding exactly like Alec Guinness says, "The force, Luke, use the force." And it just broke the whole place up.

We started dying laughing. It was amazing that he put it all together like that and said it's so timely, but he had that kind of -- he had that kind of timing and he had that type of insight. And, you know, that's what he was about.

CUOMO: His precociousness as a player coming out at 17 making it in the league, we know. Why was he so great? As a great player yourself, what made him what he was?

[01:30:05] ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I'd say what made Kobe the great player that he

was, was when he was determined to extend his will, he could extend it and there was nothing you could do about it.

I had the good fortune on November 1960, I was at the game where Elgin Baylor got 72 against the Knicks, and then I was at the game where Kobe got 81 against the Raptors.

And, you know, I had a chance to see some really great performances and Kobe's 81 points. There was nothing they could do. I mean, he was pulling up -- shooting three pointers from well beyond the three point line, attacking the basket, made all free throws. He just -- there was no way you could stop him.

He had that indomitable will and the skill to execute whenever he felt like it and the five World Championship rings attest to that.

CUOMO: Was he just a perfect combination of talents because he wasn't the tallest, he wasn't the strongest, you know, he wasn't the most explosive, he wasn't the best shooter. He was excellent in all of those categories, was it the combination?

ABDUL-JABBAR: It was a combination and he was court-wise. I think his dad, Joe Bryant really schooled him on how to play the game. You know, the moments of the game that enable you to dominate, that takes a certain kind of knowledge and his dad certainly was possessed of that knowledge, and it's something that he shared with his son and, you know, Kobe took it and expanded on it.

I think the same way that you know, you have Stephen Curry, expanding on what his dad taught him on the court, or Clay Thompson expanding on what his dad taught him. It's a chain of the exchange of knowledge that gives us athletes the quality of those guys that I just mentioned.

CUOMO: You knew him as a kid, did you see anything in him then? What do you remember of him as 10, 11, 12-year-old kid?

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, when I met Kobe, he was with his family in Italy, so in the early 90s over in Rome when I met him and he had aspirations then. He wanted to be a great basketball player. And I told him, all right, I get that and just listen to what your dad tells you and you want to be like your dad. You don't want to be like Darryl Dawkins. And Kobe got it, you know.

CUOMO: The guy named a lot of dunks, may he rest in peace. But certainly Kobe wound up being much more of a player than that. Now we have the other layer of this tragedy, which it wasn't just Kobe.

He died far too young.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes, that's the hard part.

CUOMO: And with his daughter and I think that's a big part of what is bringing the country on the same page here is that, you know, all of these different families destroyed in this one accident. Kobe, of course, the one who is known best, his daughter with all the promise, leaving three other kids now without their father and the wife without a husband, these other families destroyed. I mean, the scope of this tragedy is tough to understand.

ABDUL-JABBAR: It's tough to understand. It's useless. It serves no purpose except to make us know that we have to be even more careful. You know, we don't understand at this point, you know, what the circumstances were about the flight. You know, there could have been some problems with that.

And you know, it's not time to point fingers, but it's just time for us to be more cautious, and to not let something like this happen again in any way. The loss is just too much.

You know, I'm just glad that you didn't see me yesterday because, you know, I was a mess yesterday and it was -- it was a very difficult day yesterday.

CUOMO: Well, you know how much respect I have for you and I understand this process and I wanted you to have your time, but I also want people to make sure they don't miss that window of understanding how many great people feel such a connection to Kobe Bryant.

What do you want people to remember about everybody who was lost in this crash? Of course, Kobe Bryant is the one we know best. Of course, seeing his child at such a tender age be gone is just devastating. But a lot of kids were lost here. You know, other kids were lost, parents were lost. What should we remember?

ABDUL-JABBAR: We just have to remember that no matter who it is or where they are, precious lives can be lost too easily. We've got to remember that and we've got to do more, whatever that is to keep those things from happening. That's all we can do.

CUOMO: I heard from some other people who know him well, I want to see if you share this idea that the pain they're feeling is because Kobe hadn't had his best days yet, and they said a little bit what you said. The basketball, yes, he's a phenomenal basketball player. He'll be one of the greats.

[01:35:17]

CUOMO: But his intelligence, his desire for leadership, what he wanted to do with the rest of his life, what he may have meant to so many communities. That's the pain that they have. Kobe hadn't had his best days yet. What does that mean about what they knew about this guy?

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, that means that they understood that Kobe was looking to expand the good things that he can get done. I mean, we're so fortunate here in Los Angeles, we have LeBron James, who is trying to educate a whole school district back in Ohio. He's got plans for what he's going to be doing here in LA. We're very fortunate to have athletes like this in our community that care about our community.

And you know, and I think Kobe exemplifies that, and what he had on tap for us, geez, it's a shame that we won't ever get a chance to find out what that was. But that's where we are, and I think that's where we start measuring our loss.

CUOMO: I think that is a really interesting thing for people to know that what everybody is missing right now, what they think they know about him was only just the first layer of his life, only 41 years old, so much talent and intelligence and will to do more in life. And that was, of course ended with this crash.

Kareem, thank you so much. I know this is a hard time for you. Thank you for helping us remember what was lost, who was lost and in the right way. I appreciate your perspective. And I'm sorry for your pain.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Thanks. Thanks for having me on, Chris. I'm glad you gave me this opportunity. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: It's not easy to have these kinds of conversations when you're going through so much pain, but it's important for us to get a scope of this tragedy. Nine people gone. Kobe Bryant, obviously, the big name and the big reach. So many lives touched, so many with heartwarming stories to tell.

We have more tributes ahead. We have another former basketball All- Star, Ray Allen with his perspective on the man he knew. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:41:45]

CUOMO: As a Lakers legend, Kobe Bryant was a natural rival of the Celtics, but no love was ever lost though especially to former Celtic star, Ray Allen, who remembers him as the ultimate competitor, who made everyone step up their game.

Former NBA star, Ray Allen joins us now. Thank you very much for taking time on what I know is a very difficult time.

RAY ALLEN, RETIRED NBA PLAYER (via phone): Yes, thanks for having me on, Chris.

CUOMO: So, Ray, why do you think so many from the basketball world and beyond are coming out and expressing the grief and the depth of emotion and the knowledge of the man that was Kobe Bryant?

ALLEN: Well, I think, you know, we all had the chance, the opportunity and the great pleasure to watch Kobe grow up playing in LA, one of the largest markets we have.

We saw him making mistakes early. We saw him grow and win a championship, win three championships with Shaq and then move on and went to more after that. That's what America is all about. It's about the way we come together around our sports heroes. And he was larger than life, you know. He did things, you know, coming

to the NBA as a kid and you know, saying that he wanted to do all these things and reaching this mountaintop. You know, we've seen him standing on courtside, you know, pump his fist after have won a championship.

And that invincibility is what we all feel like our heroes are, you know that we watch win championships and when you see a guy get knocked down and lose his life, it hurts us all because we feel like this guy is supposed to live on forever.

CUOMO: And the fact that he lost his daughter, too. And you know, these two other kids who were lost and their parents and the families that are broken and the coach that was there and the pilot, I mean, there's just so much loss in one event, it makes it difficult to process.

ALLEN: It does, and you know, it just reminded me of all the people that I have in my life that you know, I talk to on a daily basis that touch me. Not just my family, but my extended family and the friends around me.

You realize to be successful in anything in life, it takes a community of people to help you get through each day, like somebody is picking up your child from school that's a neighbor, somebody's letting you borrow something that you may need for your yard, whatever it may be. There's so many people that play the part or play a part in your ability to be successful as a man or a woman, anywhere around the world.

And when you think about these people who passed away, it goes to show you that, you know, as great as Kobe was, he still had friends, he still had people that loved them and cared for him. And he was doing a fatherly duty by coaching his daughter and bringing people along with him and I'm sure they were so grateful that they were able to travel with him to the game and this is just so heartbreaking because I have kids. You know, I coach their teams.

[01:45:09]

ALLEN: You know, with their kids and you know, with their parents, and you just -- my heart is just broken. You know, he was a guy who, you know, we had some epic battles and I always felt like at some point we were going to come back around, because when we started, we both got drafted together.

And at some point, we're going to come back around and we're going to be good friends, and we we're going to talk about all the great times we had, but you know, that moment is now not ever going to happen.

CUOMO: You know, I mean, we always think things are going to happen, but time can get in the way. Fate can get in the way and it's definitely a reminder making moments happen when you can.

You know, a couple of things about what won't happen now that would have, he's got three other kids. Two of them are young, one of them is really young and it will really take effort of people like you and the friends that he had to help his wife teach that kid who their father was, you know, for all the media.

There'll be tons of images of him forever and game tape to watch and interviews. But what do you -- what would you want that kid to know about who her daddy was?

ALLEN: Well, first I don't know if you know and I probably shouldn't say it, but I just -- I will because I know my wife, she told me earlier they had a group prayer for all the NBA wives with Vanessa, so I know that they were all -- they all have her covered.

What I would want his kids to know. I want them to know who he was when I first met him. You know, he was so wide-eyed and you know, eager and ready to learn and ready to grow and go out there in the world and compete and succeed. And he was just a simple kid from a small town in America.

He had these great ambitions, and yes, his dad played professional basketball overseas, but there was no guarantee that he was going to be who he ultimately ended up being.

And I think far too often kids, they give up on their dreams because they think that they're not six, five, but who -- what kid is six, five at 10 years old or 13 years old? You know, we have to grow into those individuals and Kobe grew into something that we've come to cherish and celebrate, you know, over his lifetime, but at 17, we're not that who that kid is at 41.

And I would like for his kids to know that their life is ready to be shown across the world, and they have to just follow it because we'll be sitting here waiting and watching and holding them up on our shoulders.

CUOMO: You know, he had -- the daughter obviously, for those who don't know, Ray Allen, went to UConn and that's where -- it was the dream of Kobe's daughter, the ball player that he was with, Gigi, her name was Gianna. She wanted to go to UConn.

UConn put a Number 2 Jersey on a seat for her tonight with flowers on it as a remembrance. I felt that was a really beautiful way of recognizing what would never be.

ALLEN: It was very classy of UConn to do that. I was so happy to see that. My jersey was retired last year at UConn and Kobe and his daughter were at the game. The women played before the men and I had gotten there late and everybody told me that he was at the building.

And this is again one of those moments that I regretted not being able to interact with him and it's like, again, we're talking about these precious moments. You know we're worried about what's going to happen in the future what we're planning for, but we're not looking for what's happening right now. We just have to do it.

Whatever it is and not making excuses for it, just be bold and brazen, and just say, I'm going to do what I want to do right now and not wait. Because these tragedies happen, and we're sitting back scratching our head saying, I wish I would have done this or I wish I would have said that.

And, you know, for most of us with Kobe, it is too late for us and we can't extend how we felt about him, how he made us feel, you know, the celebrations we had in his honor. In my case, you know, I beat him one year, he beat me one year. So we both, you know, have so much to share and talk about, but we won't be able to do that now. It's just -- it's very heartbreaking.

CUOMO: Well, take solace in this Ray, his legacy now needs to be built through memories for his kids, and for all of those kids will follow in his footsteps, and that's where your remembrances will mean the most. So God bless, thank you for letting me know that people are getting around his family to help. They're going to need it. And I wish you well going forward.

ALLEN: Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on.

[01:50:10]

CUOMO: All right, be well, and thank you. All right, Kobe and his daughter, they're not the only ones in my thoughts, seven other people on board also died. We're thinking about them, and their families and all the life that will go unlived.

We want to leave you with some words from the late basketball great himself. The words of a legend gone too soon. I hope you're listening to them, and that they live on forever. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Father, man in progress, champion, Hall of Famer, Oscar winner, many want to tell us about Kobe Bryant. But perhaps the best perspective comes from the man himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOBE BRYANT, RETIRED NBA PLAYER: The best thing that happens is when we go out and fans have come up to me and she'll be standing next to me and they'd be like, hey, you've got to have a boy. You and V have got to have boy and have somebody carry on the tradition and the legacy. She's like, oi, I got this.

[LAUGHTER]

[01:55:10]

BRYANT: Well, you know, I think it's important to try to share everything that you've learned to the next generation because I learned a great deal from basketball players, soccer players and other athletes that came before me, not only athletes, but business people as well, on what it takes to be successful.

So I think it's only right and it's important that you know, once you've reach a certain level, you get back and you help the next generation of players and of kids accomplish their goal, too.

Because tomorrow is not promised to anyone, and everybody must do whatever they can to help no matter how big or how small.

It's about how you reach people, how you connect with people, how you make the world a better place one person at a time.

To have a good time. Have a good time. Enjoy life. Life is too short to get bogged down and be discouraged or you have to keep moving. You have to keep going, put one foot in front of the other, smile and just keep on rolling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon is next.

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