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All 50 States Lift Restrictions With Coronavirus Cases Rising in 17 States, Steady in 21 States and Falling in Just 12 States; U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Nears 95,000; Cases Top 1.5 Million; Officials Plans to Test 11 Million Residents in Wuhan; Wuhan Bans Eating Wild Animals; How to Enjoy Memorial Day and Summer Safely. How Coronavirus is Changing Education. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 21, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Hello, welcome. I'm Anderson Cooper in New York.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey and I'm Sanjay Gupta. I just noticed I don't have a teleprompter Anderson, sorry about that. This is CNN's global town hall coronavirus fact versus fiction. We are being simulcast all over the world, CNN International, CNN Espanola, CNN.com.

You know this Anderson, this is our 12th town hall in as many weeks doing this. But it's the first time with all 50 states now I believe lifting virus-related restrictions in one way or another.

COOPER: This is happening without a coordinated federal plan for reopening, we should point out, testing or contact tracing for that matter. And it's happening with new cases rising in 17 states, holding steady in 21, and dropping in just 12. Infections are rising in Michigan where the President visited a Ford plant today. He brought a mask and briefly wore it backstage but took it off for the tour and these are his words. "I didn't want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it.'

GUPTA: Anderson, it's worth pointing out three of the President's top health officials, all of whom are worried about their own exposures at the White House are not only wearing masks in public, but they are in some form of quarantine. We have clear evidence now that wearing a mass, can help save lives. Most people are doing it thankfully. I think it's also a sign of respect and caring for others.

COOPER: Yeah, it's not like there's no reason not to make every effort to protect the people around you, even people you don't know, that's just being a good citizen. The outbreak continues taking lives, more than 94,000 so far and there is a new study from researchers at Columbia University suggesting that if the country had begun taking social distancing measures a week earlier, about 36,000 deaths could have been prevented. President Trump calls the study, quote, "a political hit job."

GUPTA: Also, Anderson, CDC director Robert Redfield warns now about the upsurge in cases in the southern hemisphere which could lead to a flare up here in the fall. We're going to talk tonight to task force member Dr. Anthony Fauci, it will be good to see him, he'll be taking your questions as well.

COOPER: And in the second hour we're going to take a look at what the next school year could look like. Our special guests include educator Geoffrey Canada, the President of Notre Dame University plus a special message from first lady Melania Trump.

GUPTA: And as always you can tweet your questions, use the hashtag cnn-town hall or leave a comment on the CNN Facebook page. Also a lot of you have been sending in video questions and we hope to get to as many of those as we can tonight.

COOPER: And Sanjay, we also have reports from across the country and around the world. We start with this country right now and where we're at.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): There have now been more than 1.5 million positive cases of the coronavirus in the U.S. more than 94,000 people have died. The U.S. continues to lift restrictions, for the first time in two months, all 50 states have partially reopened. 12 states are now reporting a drop in the numbers, last week at this time, there were 24 states that saw their cases declining. 17 states are now seeing the number of cases rising.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D-KY): If we see dramatic increases, then yes, the way we're doing it we can pause.

COOPER (voice-over): Even though the country is opening up, the estimated death toll has fallen. The University of Washington is now projecting fewer deaths. Last week it was at 147,000. They now predict 143,000. This drop may be explained by one simple factor, face coverings.

DR. CHRIS MURRAY, DIRECTOR, THE INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND VALUATION, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON: 40 percent of the U.S. wears a mask all the time. About 80 percent wears a mask sometimes and that's probably helping separate out that impact of rise in mobility.

COOPER (voice-over): The urgency for a vaccine has only increased. Some companies this week have released promising results from early trials. Still, there are no guarantees. And the CDC director warns of another flare-up of the virus in the fall and winter, which could lead to a second lockdown.

As we head into a long holiday weekend, many beaches, restaurants and parks all over the country will be open, and potentially packed with people. Ahead of that comes a sobering statistic, 106,000 new coronavirus cases worldwide were reported to the W.H.O. just yesterday. That's the single-largest increase in a 24-hour period since the outbreak began. Almost two-thirds of those cases came from just four countries. India, Brazil, Russia, and the United States.

TEDROS ADHANOM-GHEBREYESUS, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: We still have a long way to go in this pandemic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: So having seen the big picture, let's quickly get caught up on the medical front right here with Sanjay. Sanjay?

GUPTA: Yeah, every week, Anderson, we're learn being more about this virus and how we should behave with the virus. Get together with friends or no, barbecue or skip it. What about play dates and what about swimming pools? And were going to be talking about all that tonight. We know there's been some good news in our efforts to develop a vaccine.

[20:05:00]

There's no doubt that the Moderna trial that you've heard about is still in very early stages, but the fact that they say that eight initial participants developed these special neutralizing antibodies is an important step in the right direction. The news could have been that it didn't work at all, and that would have been back to square one. That could still happen, but so far, things are forging ahead.

We know also, Anderson, that Sweden, a country that kept bars and salons and restaurants open in an effort to achieve herd immunity to the coronavirus, seems to have fallen short. Public health authorities there confirmed only around seven percent of people in Stockholm have developed these antibodies, far short of the around 70 percent needed for herd immunity.

Unfortunately, as people know, as part of that strategy, the number of deaths reached almost 4,000 in Sweden, whereas neighboring countries Finland and Norway have less than 700 deaths combined.

We also, more importantly, have more evidence this week that social distancing works. In fact, a new study from Columbia University says if the U.S. had implemented social distancing measures in place just a week earlier, as you mentioned, we could have prevented the loss of 36,000 lives.

So hopefully, Anderson, we don't forget that lesson as we move into the Memorial Day weekend. We can be outside. We can have some fun. But we should be reminded of the best strategies to stay safe for ourselves, for our parents, and for our kids.

Speaking of which, kids, how is my little guy doing, Wyatt?

COOPER: He's doing great. He just actually had a bath. I just got a picture, and -- yes, he's doing great. He's just amazing every day. It's just astonishing. I must have spent hours -- several hours today just kind of sitting there --

GUPTA: Staring at him?

COOPER: -- holding him, yes. He's great, and he's focusing more, he's looking around more and, yes, it's just incredible.

GUPTA: Can't wait to meet him.

COOPER: Yes, Sanjay, thanks. Dr. Anthony Fauci joins us momentarily. But first, a bit more on how this is all playing out on the ground, state by state. CNN's Erica Hill joins us now with that. So, Erica, when it comes to new cases, where are they most being reported?

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think we have a map we can put up for you which shows you the new cases that have popped up over the past week, and as you can see, there are a number of states, 17, that are trending up, which, of course, is not what you want to see.

Look at those dark red states, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. But there is also a focus on some of the other states that are seeing an increase, specifically Alabama today. We've heard a lot from the mayor of Montgomery who is very concerned about the situation in his city, saying earlier today there is a shortage of ICU beds and they are concerned about what is to come in that city.

GUPTA: Erica, you know, I'm getting a lot of questions, I'm sure you are, about the holiday weekend. People typically be getting together, maybe going to the beaches. So, what is open and what are you hearing about the specific restrictions?

HILL: So, for a lot of places -- and I will say just a plug for our great team here at CNN. There is a wonderful resource on our website, CNN.com, where you can look by state to get a better sense of what's open where you are, and oftentimes what applies to the state may not apply to every local jurisdiction.

Florida is a perfect example. Florida's beaches are technically open, but if you want to go to the seven and a half miles of beach in Miami Beach, those remain closed, and the mayor there says it has to do with exactly what you would think. There are concerns about controlling the numbers of people on the beach, concerns about social distancing on those public beaches.

Here in New York State, for example, beaches are open, but not in New York City. Also, a concern about social distancing in addition to the public transportation that many people would need to take to get there. Beaches in California -- we talk a lot about beaches when we talk about California -- in L.A. County, they reopened a short time ago, but just for exercise. You can go for a run. You can go surfing. But you can't lay on that beach and do a lot of sunbathing, and no large groups.

COOPER: Erica Hill. Erica, thanks very much. When we spoke to CNN's David Culver during our last Town Hall, the Chinese city of Wuhan where this all began was launching an effort to test all 11 million people there. David Culver joins us with that and more from Beijing tonight. So, David, where does testing stand in Wuhan right now?

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you've got to think just how massive that city is. It's larger than any U.S. city, larger certainly than New York. There are 11 million residents altogether. A good number of that 11 million will be tested ultimately. Not everyone, including children under 6, are going to be tested and they're also going to avoid certain people who have been tested in recent days.

So they are several days into it, more than a week into it. We know more than three million people have been tested. What's interesting is, I was looking at this as a possible indication that they might adjust the numbers, because we've been very skeptical of how low the Chinese numbers are and the figures are.

But even just as recently as yesterday, they came out saying that after 800,000 tests yesterday alone, there were no new cases. So it seems they are sticking to that number count, at least for now.

As of now, going forward, too, they've also instituted a ban on consumption of wildlife because of the concerns that this originated in that market and that it spread from an animal to human through possibly wildlife consumption. That's within Wuhan as a locality.

[20:10:00]

And it seems like that is just reiterating what they're doing nationally here, as trying to crackdown on it. You can put out the policy, Anderson and Sanjay. It's another thing to implement it culturally, so we'll see how that plays out going forward.

GUPTA: David, I understand there's also concerns of a second outbreak now in another part of the country. What are you hearing about that?

CULVER: Sanjay, this is the northeast area, so you're talking about along the border with Russia and with North Korea, as well.

And what's really interesting about this is we've seen state media over the past several weeks show that China is reopening, and we proved that when we were down in Wuhan and saw that certain things were coming back online, though the vast majority of businesses are not back open and many of them told us they quite frankly could not reopen.

So, when you look at some of these border communities, they are imposing Wuhan-style lockdowns, and they are very strict, sealing people once again inside their homes, and local officials are taking a blame for this. They're being fired for it. And so, the central government not very happy with how it's being handled.

But these are some of the second wave concerns that even the Dr. Fauci of China, as he's been named, Dr. Zhong Nanshan, told us over the weekend, is a real concern that he has over the next few weeks, Anderson and Sanjay.

COOPER: David, you're back in Beijing for the first time in months. What's changed since you were last there?

CULVER: Yes, first time in three months. I noticed some holiday decorations are still here in our office. That's how long we've been away covering this story. It was interesting to see, first of all, how heavy security is here. That's in part because of the National People's Congress which is the rubberstamp parliament that gets underway in just a few hours from now, so you have all of the leaders from the country coming together for this assembly.

What's very intriguing to me is the strict process of getting here. Travel domestically within China, you have to add another hour and a half, two hours, to get on a flight, because mostly -- those of us who are foreigners, they're really concerned about these imported cases. Even though we live here, they take us aside for extra screening.

I talked about those QR codes. I've got to say, it's somewhat inefficient at times because there are multiple QR codes depending on the jurisdiction. So, you find yourself reregistering every time you land in a new city and it becomes a little bit complicated. But, overall, they're sticking strictly to that isolation and really trying to maintain the social distancing, though people seem to be getting a bit complacent at times.

COOPER: David Culver. David, thanks very much as always. Joining Sanjay and me now, taking your questions shortly, is White House coronavirus task force member, Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health.

Dr. Fauci, we are incredibly happy that you are here. We've got audience questions for you as always, and we're going to start with some of our own. There are certainly a lot of people who respect you and want to hear from you and Dr. Birx and other health professionals on a daily basis.

I guess my first question is, why aren't we hearing from the coronavirus task force on a daily basis any more, and if they aren't going to have daily briefings about facts and science, can you, or the NIH, or can the CDC have their own daily briefings with top scientists? Because I think there's a lot of Americans out there who really still want to hear from scientists every day.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Yes, well, thank you, Anderson. That's a good point. I think you're going to probably be seeing a little bit more of me and my colleagues. There was a period of time it was a little bit low, in our being out there with the press, but I believe that's going to change.

We've been talking with the communications people and they realize we need to get some of these information out, particularly some of the scientific issues for which I'm predominantly responsible for. So, hopefully, you'll be seeing more of us. We'll get the opportunity to talk to you and I'll listen, as the way we're doing tonight.

COOPER: And I want to be clear, I'm not asking to corner you or make things hard for you. But just as a citizen, not just as a reporter, I personally miss hearing from you and Dr. Birx every day. I know a ton of people I talk to do, as well.

I know you met with the task force today. It's my understanding that was the first time the task force met in six days. Is the task force still as robust and, you know, central in all of this as it was before, or has that now changed? FAUCI: Well, it's changed a bit, but in an interesting way, Anderson.

For example, we have a subgroup of the task force which is the doctors, myself, Dr. Birx, Dr. Hahn, Dr. Redfield, et cetera, who -- we meet much more often than that, talking about some of the scientific issues.

The task force as a whole, as you know, the theme has been shifting somewhat. It's looking at the reopening, the economic impact, so there's more of an emphasis on that. But that's not to the diminution of the scientific issues. We had a very good discussion today about some of the issues regarding guidelines, about some of the trends and the patterns of infection. So we had a really good meeting today. I was very pleased with it.

GUPTA: Dr Fauci it's good to see you, thanks for being here.

[20:15:00]

Moderna a lot of people have heard this name of this company now has partnered with the National Institutes of Health and they announced some positive early results from their vaccine trials this week. You said it was very encouraging, it's early, it's just eight patients where they saw these neutralizing antibodies, these special antibodies. It does seem very early. What specifically encourages you about this, Dr. Fauci?

FAUCI: Well, Sanjay, as you well know when you're developing a vaccine, there's always land mines and traps along the way to get in the way of the successful completion of developing a safe effective vaccine. One of the first steps that is important is a phase one trial where you give it to a limited number of people.

In this case we gave it to 45 people, three separate doses. The question is was it immediately safe? Clearly it was. But importantly, did it induce the kind of response that you would predict would be protective against the virus? And that's what's called neutralizing antibodies.

When you get a vaccination, you're going to get antibodies. Some of them are called binding antibodies, where if this were the virus, it binds to this part. But this is the action part of the virus that binds to a receptor. So if it just binds here, it's almost an irrelevant antibody.

Neutralizing antibodies bind to the business end of the virus and block its ability to infect. So what we saw, even though there were only eight individuals, we saw neutralizing antibodies at a reasonable dose of the vaccine. And the titers were high enough to lead us to believe if we attain that in more people, in a large number of people, you can predict that, that vaccine would be protective.

So, although the numbers were limited, it was really quite good news because it reached and went over an important hurdle in the development of vaccines. That's the reason why I'm cautiously optimistic about it. GUPTA: And one thing that's worth pointing out -- I was doing some

reporting on this this week. But you worked on HIV for decades, obviously there's no vaccine for HIV yet. But \my understanding is in all those trials, what you just described with those types of neutralizing antibodies, they never achieved that level with HIV vaccine trials in, what, several decades. Is that true?

FAUCI: That is absolutely correct. I mean, I've been working with my colleagues in trying to develop a vaccine for HIV, as you said correctly, for decades. The body doesn't like to make broadly neutralizing antibodies against HIV.

The kind of antibodies that would truly prevent you from being infected. With this coronavirus, the body readily makes it and the reason for that is that with natural infection, the body has a very adequate response and that's the reason why such a large proportion of people spontaneously recover from the coronavirus infection and really do quite well.

Obviously a certain subset get very sick, many of them die. But that's a relatively small percentage. Most of the people mount that good response that's a neutralizing antibody and that's exactly what the patients -- not the patients, the normal volunteers did in this phase one study and that's the reason why, although we're always cautious, it's really a good sign.

COOPER: We got to take a quick break. Coming up next, your questions for Dr. Fauci. We have a lot of them from our viewers. We'll have that and later more on the questions that so many of us have as the weather gets better and the first big holiday weekend approaches.

What will summer look like and how to stay safe in the middle of a pandemic. Plus an exclusive message to American students from First Lady Melania Trump, that's coming up as well.

[20:19:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back. Sanjay and I here with coronavirus task force member Dr. Anthony Fauci who is here to answer our questions and more importantly, yours. Let's get right to them. Our first question is from Nancy in California who sent in this question. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY ASAKSON, SELF EMPLOYED CONSULTANT: Our county is now offering free coronavirus testing. There is a local lab that offers antibody testing for a cost. Both are available without a doctor's orders and without symptoms. Which one would you recommend getting or would you recommend getting both? Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Dr. Fauci? FAUCI: Well, yeah, that's a question that a lot of people are asking.

If you want to know if you are infected, then clearly you want the test for infection, namely, the test that determines do you have a virus in you. If you're interested in knowing if you've been exposed and you have been infected and you've recovered, then the antibody test.

Unless you have symptoms or have a reason to believe you have been exposed to someone, there really is no reason to have the test for the virus. It would likely be of more interest to you to see that maybe you were infected, you were one of those many asymptomatic carriers and now you have an antibody test that shows that you're actually infected. I would say be careful because you want to make sure you use an antibody test that's been validated either by the FDA or by the NIH. because there are many tests out there that are not validated and may give you a false positive, or even a false negative.

GUPTA: Let's get to another question, Dr. Fauci. Kevin from slant sent in this video, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN KING: I am 72 and in good health. Government orders aside, how can I determine when it is safe for me, for example, to get a haircut, to a nursery to buy a plant, to Home Depot to buy a garden hose or to a restaurant for dinner? What metric or other objective criteria am I looking for that will tell me when these activities are okay for me? Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Dr. Fauci --

FAUCI: Great question.

GUPTA: -- your hair looks pretty good, Dr. Fauci, by the way so does Anderson's. Mine looks a little puffy.

FAUCI: It's getting there Sanjay, I really need one soon. I'm looking for one. That's why it's a relevant question that this gentleman asked.

[20:25:00]

But the question is a serious question, and important.

First of all, it's going to depend on what the dynamics of the outbreak is in the area where you live. If you are in a situation where -- if you look at the guidelines, the gateway guidelines, the phase one, two, three, if you're in an area where the infection is so low that people are out maybe in phase two and even phase three, even though you're 72 years old, you could do something like get a haircut.

If, in fact, you're in an area where there is a degree of infection, given your age, even though you feel and probably look very healthy, even though -- because of your age you can consider yourself to be one of the vulnerable ones. So, I would be extra careful compared to, let's say, a 30-year-old or a 25-year-old.

But look around you as to the dynamics of the infection in the place where you are living. Right now, for example, I'm in Washington, D.C. We still have a high rate of infection. So you heard Sanjay joking around. There's no way I'm going to get a haircut right now until those infections start coming down. And they are starting to come down. So, I think, right here in my own city, I very likely will be able to do that, and I am over 70 years old like you are.

COOPER: This is a question that Brittanye sent in which reads, since there is a one to two-week lag in virus symptoms appearing, wouldn't new cases still be declining or flat for at least a week or two after reopening? Shouldn't we wait for at least a couple of weeks before declaring the reopening a success?

FAUCI: That's absolutely the case, and that's the reason why, when you see the reopening, that we tell the cities, the locations, the communities to be on the alert for what I refer to as the little blips that you might see. Because, as you open up, even under normal circumstances and the best of circumstances, you are going to see infections.

The critical issue for a successful opening is how effectively you address those blips. Do you have in place the capability, the testing and the manpower to identify, to isolate, and to contact trace? If you do, you will be able to prevent those blips from becoming resurgence, and you'll be able to progress along the various phases of reopening for, hopefully, a successful reopening.

GUPTA: Dr. Fauci, I'm wondering what you thought about this new Columbia University study which showed that if the U.S. began social distancing a week earlier, maybe 36,000 lives could have been saved. Do you believe those numbers? In retrospect now, which is always hard, I understand, but should those measures have been put in earlier?

FAUCI: You know, you're really asking two separate questions. Obviously, if you have measures that were preventing the outbreak of infection and they were successful, the logical thing to say, if you had done it earlier, you likely would have prevented a number of infections. I mean, that's just the way it is. There's no getting away from that.

However, I have a little skepticism about models. You and I have spoken about models all the time. Models are subject to the suppositions and the assumptions you put into them. So, yes, you could always go back and say, I could have, I should have, I would have.

That's behind us. What we need to look right now, I would much prefer, rather than looking what could have been done is to say how are we going to successfully reopen, re-enter the normality, and do it in a safe way. That's what I'm focusing on.

COOPER: The trend that we're seeing, certain states showing increasing numbers rather than neutral numbers, numbers staying stable or falling numbers -- what does that tell you? I mean, A, does it surprise you, the numbers of states that are rising, the number of states that have numbers still falling, the number of states that are stable?

FAUCI: Well, it doesn't surprise me, because we're a large country, Anderson, and we have different dynamics of the outbreak in different cities, states, regions and counties. So, what I will say is what I've said on your show multiple times in the past. Look at the dynamics in your community, in your city or whatever, and act accordingly.

If you're still going up, you've got to maintain mitigation. You've got to maintain physical separation, mask wearing, the kinds of mitigations of restaurants, bars, et cetera, and you've got to do that until you start coming down. That's in the guidelines. They're very clearly spelled out.

If you're coming down, then you get into the situation of trying to progress from one phase to the other, towards opening. It really depends on what's going on in your community. So, I'm not surprised at all at the heterogeneity that we're seeing, some going up and some going down.

[20.30.00]

FAUCI: That's in the guidelines they're very clearly spelt out. If you're coming down then you get into the situation of trying to progress from one phase to the other towards opening, it really depends on what's going on in your community. So I'm not surprised at all at the heterogeneity that we're seeing, some going up and some going down. We're a large country with very varied dynamics of the outbreak.

GUPTA: We got Rob Williams, Dr. Fauci, from North Carolina sent in this video. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROB WILLIAMS: Recent news reported other countries revealed that people who recover from the coronavirus are still testing positive. So the virus test cannot differentiate between the virus of the dead cells versus living virus cells. My question is could this mean that some asymptomatic people maybe are not contagious? Also, do the U.S. testing kits work the same way as they would in other countries? Can they tell the difference?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: Yeah, that's a really good question that's being asked a lot. So, let me put it in context and with some basis for why there is concern. So, you get infected the virus replicates in you. The test that we do only tells you if the virus is there. It doesn't tell you if it's replicating.

So you could have a virus that stops replicating, your body has suppressed it, and you still have viral particles, we call them nucleotides. So the test that you use is not going to tell whether it's a live virus or a dead virus. So it is conceivable and I would say likely that I would be infected, I would recover, and you would start to see maybe a week or two or more later when you test me, I still have detectable virus.

It is likely, though we don't prove it yet, you prove it by culturing the virus. But it's likely that a remnant of the virus that are not replication competent. You can't be cavalier about it, you can't say, well, I'm going to be assuming that's not replication competent. You've got to make sure you clear it even by the test that we use. So it's not an uncommon phenomenon to have people feel perfectly well as if they've recovered, which they have clinically but they still have detectable virus.

COOPER: So, Dr. Fauci, just finally, what's your message to Americans going into Memorial Day weekend, what precautions should they be taking?

FAUCI: You know, Anderson, it depends on where you are as I keep getting back to that theme, it depends on the dynamics of the outbreak where you are. But wherever you are, I mean, Memorial Day, it's a very important holiday. Hopefully the sun will be out, we'll be having people who want to get out there and get fresh air, you can do that. We're not telling people to just lock in unless you're in a situation where you have a major outbreak going on.

We don't have too much of that right now in the country. Go out, wear a mask, stay 6 feet away from anyone so you have the physical distancing, and go out, go for a run, go for a walk, go fishing. As long as you're not in a crowd and you're not in a situation where you can physically transmit the virus, and that's what a mask is for, and that's what the physical distance. I plan to go out for nice walks and hikes over Memorial Day and I'm going to do it with care, with a mask on.

COOPER: Dr. Anthony Fauci, thank you so much. We hope to see more of you and we appreciate it. Just ahead, answers to more coronavirus questions including more on how to enjoy Memorial Day and the summer safely.

[20:33:35]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to CNN's Global Town Hall, "Coronavirus: Facts and Fears". Before the break, you heard Dr. Anthony Fauci answering your questions about when it's safe to go back outside, particularly as Memorial Day weekend starts tomorrow. He said, quote, it's going to depend what the dynamics of the outbreak is where you live. If it's still going up, he said, you still need to maintain mitigation. He said, regardless, you should be wearing a mask and social distancing.

GUPTA: Yes, and along those lines, we now want to focus on what reopening may mean for your community. Now that the weather is warming, more people are going outside, and in some places, starting to congregate in bigger numbers. Joining us is Julia Marcus, an infectious disease epidemiologist and assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. Welcome.

COOPER: Welcome, Julia.

JULIA MARCUS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Thanks for having me.

COOPER: As Memorial Day, and beyond, approaches, there are obviously going to be a lot of people who want to be outside. What kind of guidance do you think there needs to be on what's considered safe?

MARCUS: Yes, I think up until now, we've had kind of an all-or-nothing approach, where we've really been telling people to stay home, which is what we needed to do for the first couple of months. And then we realized, this is actually something we're going to need to be doing for many months, if not years, and so, we have to find a way to do this sustainably.

So, I was very happy to hear Dr. Fauci encouraging people to go outside and just avoid crowds, maintain physical distancing and wear masks. I think that's the approach we need moving forward -- is to encourage people to be outdoors, where we know that the risk of transmission is much lower.

GUPTA: Yes, and I mean, it's a wider space, the virus disperses more outside. There's risk, still, because the virus is still spreading. But from what I understand, Julia, you sort of advocate this harm reduction model. That's what I was reading in your writing, that health experts can sort of help folks differentiate between what is considered high risk and low risk. How do you go about doing that?

MARCUS: Yes, so, I think what we've been doing so far has been more of an abstinence only approach, where we stay home. That's the safest thing to do, which is absolutely true. But what it does is, it misses an opportunity to support people engaging in low-risk behaviors that are going to be more sustainable in the long-term.

And harm reduction is an alternative public health approach where we accept that risk elimination is not possible, and I think we can all agree that we need to have social contact and we can't just stay indoors until we have a vaccine. And so, instead of that abstinence only model, we can give people a sense of a spectrum of risk, what some of the lowest risk activities are, all the way up to the highest risk, and give them tools to reduce harm in every setting.

COOPER: So, let's talk about some of those activities. Swimming, whether it's in the ocean, in a lake, in a community pool, what are the protocols? What's harm reduction in that?

[20:40:00]

MARCUS: I think, as we heard from Dr. Fauci, the most important thing is physical distancing and there's no particular risk with water, it's just if there's crowding in a pool, then you run into the same problem you would have with crowding in any other outdoor setting. So I think as much as we can encourage beaches to be open and, you know, open up more outdoor space, we will be able to maintain that physical distancing if we have more space for people to use. COOPER: And some of this is just common sense, wear masks, stay 6 feet

apart, don't share food or drinks, pass around stuff across the table. But there are those who just might break common sense rules. What is the best way to handle that, do you think?

MARCUS I think with this harm reduction approach, we need to try to reduce harms for everyone and one of the side effects of abstinence only messaging is that people can start to shame others for what seems to be risky behaviour and the problem with that is that can drive that behaviour underground.

So you can imagine that if we start to see people gathering in a park, not wearing masks, standing too close together, if we do shame people for that and call them out on social media, then what they might do is take that indoors and have a dinner party instead, which we know is going to be higher risk. And the last thing we want is for contact tracers to be trying to trace people who may have been exposed in an outbreak, and people not being willing to disclose that they attended an event.

GUPTA: You make this interesting point, Julia, the public health campaigns that only promote the total elimination of risk could actually backfire. I guess that's what you're saying, and that could lead to worse outcomes.

MARCUS: That's right. I mean, that's what we see in the case of abstinence only messaging for sex. If we tell teens, don't have any sex, it's the safest thing you can do, it's true that's the safest thing they can do. But the reality is people are going to have sex and that's part of a healthy life. The problem there is when people do choose to take those risks, they don't have the tools they need to reduce any potential harm. So we're missing an opportunity to give people tools to reduce risk.

COOPER: Julia Marcus, really appreciate what you do. Thank you very much.

MARCUS: Thanks for having me.

COOPER: Also a reminder at the bottom of your screen, you're going to see our social media scroll shows the questions people are asking. You can tweet us your questions with the #cnn town hall. You can also leave a comment on the CNN Facebook page. We're giving answers there as well to some of those questions.

Back now with Sanjay. We also want to bring in Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency room physician and former Baltimore health commissioner and help answer more of your coronavirus questions tonight. So Dr. Wen you just wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post about how people should think about risk as states are reopening. Do you agree with what Julia Marcus said? As a health expert, what would you suggest as, kind of, best practices in spending time-outdoors?

DR. LEANA WEN, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: Yes, I do agree with Julia that we need to think about harm reduction. We know that any time people will be interacting with one another outside of their household, there is risk and so we need a framework for deciding which activities are lower risk or higher risk than others.

So I think we should think about three variables. We should think about proximity, activity, and time. So if you're going to get together with your friends, best to do it outdoors, 6 feet apart. That's proximity. You can also change your activity, so don't hug and kiss and share utensils that reduces risk, too.

And if you're going out, take-out is still safer and if you're going to be sitting in a restaurant, ideally sit outside. Spend less time, maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes, not an hour. That changes the time also. We get a lot of questions from grandparents about whether they can see their grand kids and there is the idea of pooled risk. So families that all have low risk can actually safely be with each other if they all are engaged in low-risk behaviour.

And then also risk is cumulative, so just because you now can go out and your state is reopened, don't go out and do everything. So if you're going to get your hair cut, don't also go to a restaurant and ultimately these are individual decisions, but what we do as individuals affect others too and so wearing a mask, practicing physical distancing also helps to reduce the collective risk for everyone as well. COOPER: Sanjay, Jeff in Texas sent in this video. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF STEWART: Why do the social distancing rules being enforced at parks, restaurants, bars, concerts and sporting events not apply to seating on airplanes?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Yeah, no, that's a good point and you know obviously airlines are trying to figure out how they're going to navigate this. I think the guidance for a lot of people still is, again, depending on what your risk is within your community, how much the virus is spreading in your community, that you may need to just travel only when it's essential right now

I mean, that may change as the summer goes on, we're going to get more and more guidance on that. But I think whenever you do any of these things, you have to sort of get an idea what is the risk reward proposition here?

[20:45:00]

What is my real risk? What is the need that I -- that actually -- why do I really need to do this? Why do I need to travel in this case?

COOPER: And Sanjay, you have a tutorial for us.

GUPTA: Yes, let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA (on camera): Things are going to feel a lot different the next time you go to the airport. First of all, it will be less crowded, that's for sure. Certain precautions are in place, like plexiglass, the counters, telling people to keep their distance when they're in line. Most people already do this, but don't forget to put your boarding pass on your phone ahead of time. Less surfaces to touch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see your ID card, please.

GUPTA (on camera): Yes. Try and count how many surfaces you touch throughout the whole process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take everything out of your pockets, please.

GUPTA (on camera): I'm going to put this in there. Second bin that I'm touching. One thing I do want to show you is how I pack nowadays. I've got my hand sanitizer. You saw how many surfaces I just touched, so this is when I do a little hand sanitizer. Constantly wash the hands.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This train is departing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please stand six feet away.

GUPTA (on camera): One of the big concerns is always going to be those sorts of train rides. Right now, things aren't that crowded, but as airports start to pick up, you may want to allow extra time so that you can walk to the concourse instead of ride.

Everyone is going to decide whether or not it makes sense to fly. It's these sort of risk reward propositions. One thing I'll tell you is that separating yourselves out -- obviously important, that's the distance. But think about the duration. Shorter flights are obviously going to be better.

GUPTA (voice over): Also, they say the plane has been sterilized before we actually get on, using this electrostatic sterilization process. When you get to your row, a couple of things to keep in mind.

GUPTA (on camera): First, try and touch as few surfaces as possible. When I sit down, I'm actually going to try and choose a window seat. And the reason being, that I'll just have less contact with people who are walking by the aisle. I'm going to go ahead and turn on what's called the gasper here.

Turn it up as high as you can. That's going to cause some turbulent airflow in front of you and possibly break up any clouds of virus. These are small things. They may make a small difference, but it's easy to do and it's probably worth it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Wow, fascinating. I mean, it is. Flying is a scary prospect right now, especially for those who are working on the aircraft.

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, that's one thing I noticed at the airport, as well. All the frontline workers, all the people working there are wearing masks, and, you know, a fair number of the passengers are, as well. You wear the mask, again, to protect other people. So, the frontline workers are there all day. Another reason to try and be as safe as possible.

COOPER: I'm amazed that all fliers are not wearing masks or being told to wear a mask when they get on the plane.

Dr. Wen, this is a question Lola sent in from Kentucky, which reads, now that stay-at-home orders are being lifted around the country, how safe is it to have an elective surgery done? Are you at higher risk of catching the virus if you go to the hospital and stay overnight after surgery?

DR. LEANA WEN, VISITING PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Yes, so, it depends on the part of the country, as Dr. Fauci said, but I will say that we are, in general, safer now than we were back in March, because hospitals have had time to prepare, and they all have new protocols for protecting patients.

So, it's not 100 percent safe, but it is pretty safe. And there are things that you can do, including limiting the amount of time that you're in the hospital. But don't leave too early either before you're ready to leave, because, if you develop complications and have to return, that increases your risk, too.

COOPER: Sanjay, Michael in Lithuania sent in this video. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL PATRICK: What is the effectiveness of shelter-at-home in reducing deaths? We have no baseline data for this coronavirus. We do have a prior year's data for the deadly flu virus. Flu is different, but as a virus, it should still be affected to some degree by shelter- at-home. What can we learn about the efficacy of at-home sheltering's impact in reducing flu deaths this year that might help us understand our safety choices better?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: That's a great point. So, the impact of stay-at-home orders on other viruses such as flu -- you know, it's interesting. We're still in the middle of season here, so we haven't gotten the final numbers for this year. We have been looking at this on a community-by- community basis around the country, and you do see communities that typically have higher rates of flu, and even higher rates of flu deaths that are lower this year.

Again, it's hard to directly correlate this to the stay-at-home orders, but it makes perfect sense. In different times throughout history, when you've had mandatory stay-at-home because of an ice storm or something like that, you do see infectious disease rates go down. ER visits for those -- rates go down, as well, so it probably has had an impact on other infectious diseases, as well.

COOPER: Yes, and you would expect, with masks and hand washing, that would also have an impact.

GUPTA: That's right.

COOPER: Dr. Wen, there's a question Gail sent in, which reads, with an abundance of caution, I heat any takeout food at home.

[20:50:00]

Can you tell me what oven temp and time frame would be advised to kill any virus? Also, how long in a microwave would be sufficient?

WEN: Yes, so, this coronavirus is not a food borne illness, and so, you're not going to get it from eating food. You could have an abundance of caution and just make sure that you transfer from the takeout container to your own bowl. You could heat it for 30 seconds, but the most important thing is to wash your hands after you touch the container, very well.

COOPER: This question, Dr. Wen, John sent in from Oregon, which reads, has any other pandemic in history breached the White House?

WEN: It's a good question, and the answer is, yes. So, during the 1918/1919 flu pandemic, there were a number of people close to President Wilson who got ill, including Secret Service agents, the president's personal secretary, and even his oldest daughter. And there are reports, too, that President Wilson himself came down with severe flu-like symptoms.

And so, it's a reminder that none of us are immune, and that the president and everybody around him should be practicing good public health practices, like wearing a mask at all times, practicing six feet social distancing, and also, quarantining themselves if they have high level exposure.

COOPER: Sanjay, this next video question is from Joe. He's living down in Florida until it's safe for him and his wife, he says, to drive back home to New York. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE MARCHESE, RETIREE: If there was a smoker in the area with COVID- 19, and the smoke is reaching you and you can smell it, does that mean the airborne virus is also reaching you, even though you may be six feet or more away? Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Yes, good question. That's unlikely. You know, the thing about this respiratory virus, you think about the virus, sort of, in these respiratory droplets. That's part of the reason it's not going to travel as far just from normal talking or breathing. Smoke is obviously going to travel further.

So, six feet is a good -- it's arbitrary, obviously, but it's a good frame of reference for just talking normal breathing. If someone is symptomatic, coughing or sneezing, then obviously they can spread those respiratory droplets further.

I think, if people -- taking nothing else away -- regardless of whether we're in the middle of a COVID pandemic, if you have symptoms, you should probably stay home, even if you think the symptoms aren't from the infection, because you could still carry the virus, you could still be coughing due to asthma or something else, and still be spreading the virus further as a result.

COOPER: Dr. Wen, Ellen in New York State sent in this video. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELLEN KATCHER, RETIRED TEACHER: How can I safely ride in an elevator? I have no choice. I'm a senior and I live on a very high floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Dr. Wen?

WEN: Yes, it's challenging, because you can't control this. You do have to ride in the elevator but you can ask your building if there's a policy. Some buildings have policies for limiting the number of occupants now, because of COVID-19, to increase physical distancing.

You could also do your best with wearing a mask. If you're touching the elevator button, use a tissue to touch it, or use your elbow and then sanitize afterwards. Try to use the elevator during non-peak times, and, of course, stay as far away from people as possible.

COOPER: Also, some elevators I know even have, kind of, foot positioning where it's ideal to stand, in an attempt to, kind of, limit the number of people in the elevator. Dr. Wen, as always, thank you so much.

Our CNN Global Town Hall continues after the break with an hour dedicated entirely to education. We're going to talk to a leading pediatrician about the changes needed to keep school kids healthy, and contain any outbreaks of the virus. Two award winning teachers and the acclaimed educator, Geoffrey Canada, join us, as well.

Also, the president of Notre Dame University on his new plan to do what many other such institutions are not, bringing students back on campus this fall. And later, a special message from the first lady to all the kids who now call mom and dad teacher.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:57:40]

COOPER: Welcome to our 12th CNN global town hall, coronavirus facts and fears. I'm Anderson Cooper in New York.

GUPTA: In this hour we're going to do a special look at how the outbreak is affecting how we educate our kids. Not only right now but coming this fall and even beyond that it's one of the most common questions we get. At the bottom of your screen you can see the social media scroll. Tweet us your questions with the hashtag #cnntownhall. You can also leave a comment on the CNN Facebook page.

COOPER: We have a lot ahead, we're going to be hearing from some of the top educators in the country, also a university president who's planning for the return of students in the fall. A business school professor who sees profound and accelerating changes ahead for higher education and two experts in Psychology including Angela Duckworth the author of Grit: The power of passion and perseverance, they're here to take questions on the impact this is having and will continue to have on parents and kids alike. But first a quick overview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER(voice-over): There are more than 50 million students currently enrolled in the public U.S. education system and the majority of them stopped going to school in mid-March.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK, NEW YORK: Something I could not in a million years imagined having to do.

COOPER (voice-over: So how are students learning? Most schools have transitioned to online classes but not every student has access to a computer, quiet place to study or high-speed internet, and the public- school system is about more than just education.

For many it's a safe and reliable form of child-care and also a place where kids can count on a hot meal. But social distancing is nearly impossible without a complete overhaul of how classrooms operate.

JILLIAN BALOW, WYOMING STATE SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: I think we would be naive to ever think about American schools go back to the way that they were.

COOPER (voice-over): Then there's the issue of higher education. Some institutions like the California State University System have already cancelled in-person classes for their fall semester. While others like Notre Dame have shortened their fall semester and have cancelled classes on campus after thanksgiving, anticipating a second wave of the virus in the winter.

The future of college sports is also up in the air. There's a chance some seasons could be cancelled altogether next year. Many institutions are worried students will choose not to return. Online learning or reduce services on campus without sports may not be worth the hefty tuition for some.

[21:00:00]