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Coronavirus: Facts and Fears; U.S. Coronavirus Deaths Now At 125,796; Gates: U.S. "Not Even Close" To Doing Enough To Fight Pandemic; Gates On The Prospect U.S. Comes To Accept A Certain Level Of Death From Virus: "I Hope Not". Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 25, 2020 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes. Well, I appreciate your time and explaining it.
JAMAAL BOWMAN (R), RUNNING FOR CONGRESS SEEKING TO UNSEAT REP. ENGEL: Thank you.
BURNETT: Thank you so much. I look forward to talking to you again. Thanks, Jamaal.
BOWMAN: Thank you.
BURNETT: And thanks to all of you for joining us. Our Global Town Hall CORONAVIRUS: FACTS AND FEARS starts right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. Welcome in New York.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta and this is our 15th CNN Global Town Hall, CORONAVIRUS: FACTS AND FEARS which has been seen around the world on CNN International, CNN Espanol and also streamed on cnn.com.
COOPER: When we left you last week, the facts suggested we were not making progress toward getting the outbreak under control. Over the last several days, that movement in the wrong direction became clear.
GUPTA: That's right. This week, we saw COVID cases reach record numbers in states all across the South and the West. And by the end of this hour, we may have the highest single day of new cases since this pandemic began. Hard to believe.
Just today, the Governor of Texas put the state's aggressive reopening plans on hold. In large part probably because in Houston, the critical care shortage is now so great that the city's Children's Hospital is becoming open to adult patients.
And the European Union, which has largely contained its outbreak is now considering a ban on Americans traveling to Europe.
COOPER: In short, what experts warned about if there wasn't a cohesive nationwide plan, testing, containment and other measures to stop the spread has happened.
Today, C.D.C. Director Robert Redfield said the number of Americans who have been infected with the virus is likely 10 times higher than reported, which would seem to only underscore the need for more testing. Testing, the President says he wants to slow down.
We would have liked to have had Dr. Redfield on about his comments tonight, but same as last week, the White House refused to allow anyone -- anyone from the Taskforce to come on the program.
And the President continues holding indoor rallies where the virus is spiking, already members of his own advance team have tested positive for the virus and dozens of Secret Service agents are now quarantining.
So at this critical point, the President is doing everything possible to flout his own experts and keep them off the air. Not giving valuable life-saving information out there. He's not even talking to them.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, remember the White House Coronavirus Taskforce, and one of the top infectious disease experts in the world said the other day he hadn't talked to the President in two and a half weeks. Redfield wouldn't even say how long it was.
Consider how you feel about this White House blocking the country's leading health experts from not only coming on this program to tell you what's happening, but not having daily coronavirus briefings. These are experts whose salaries you pay.
GUPTA: Yes. But as before, just because we don't have members of the Taskforce doesn't mean, we're going to stop reporting on this pandemic. So tonight along with our own health team, we're going to be joined by Bill Gates who publicly warned of a pandemic all the way back in 2015.
COOPER: Yes, the last time he was here, which was less than two months ago, just more than 63,000 Americans had died. This week, sadly, the numbers topped 122,000.
GUPTA: So against that backdrop, we're going to be taking your questions tonight. We'd like you to tweet them to us with the #CNNTownHall. You can leave a comment on the CNN Facebook page as well.
Also, we'll be taking many of your video questions as many as we can. You can see some of them there up on the screen.
COOPER: Plus, as always, reports from around the country and the world. First, let's take a look at where things stand right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice over): There are now more than 2.4 million confirmed cases of the coronavirus in the U.S., more than 122,000 people have died, and 30 states across the country are reporting a rise in infections. At least 13 states have seen their cases increase by at least 50 percent last week.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The next couple of weeks are going to be critical in our ability to address those surges that we're seeing in Florida, in Texas, in Arizona and in other states.
COOPER (voice over): New York once the epicenter of the outbreak is now one of 20 states where new cases are holding steady or in decline. And in order to keep their numbers under control, New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have now instituted travel restrictions.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): People coming in from states that have a high infection rate must quarantine for 14 days.
COOPER (voice over): Texas, which was one of the earliest states to reopen is facing a massive outbreak. Doctors in Houston report they'll run out of hospital beds soon if the infection rate continues to climb.
And a warning from the Governor.
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): Unless you do need to go out, the safest place for you is at your home.
COOPER (voice over): There's still no Federal policy on wearing masks in public. The one widely used model suggests widespread mask wearing could save 33,000 lives by October.
Public health officials remind us we're still in the first wave of this pandemic, and they warned as the regular flu season looms in the fall, the coronavirus might require some states to shut down again.
DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, C.D.C. DIRECTOR: We've all done the best that we can do to tackle this virus and the reality that brought this nation to its knees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:03]
COOPER: So with that, first to what you just heard Dr. Redfield say. Sanjay, I mean have we really done all we could? It doesn't seem like it.
GUPTA: Sorry to say it, Anderson. But I don't think by a longshot. We know we haven't done what we could have done. I mean, we're not even five percent of the world's population, but we make up 25 percent of the world's infections and deaths.
Remember, when we were talking about the mortality rate of COVID being around one or two percent? Right now, if you do the math in this country, it's around five percent. That's not the best we could do.
I mean, right now, we could be in a position where anyone could get tested today, get a result back quickly and then carry on with their life. But that's not the case. We started off behind the curve and we have never caught up and at the
same time, while we reopen, while we refuse to wear masks, while we watch the number soar that you just talked about, hospitals filling up again. We also pin all of our hopes and dreams on a vaccine.
And while we know that there's been a lot of optimism there, Anderson, truth is even there, we haven't seen a lot data on a science that is coming to us through papers that haven't been published or peer reviewed. Even worse, some are coming from just press releases, which come from the companies themselves.
Now, this may surprise you, but when it comes to vaccines, there is only been one study actually published in a peer reviewed journal so far, that one is from China.
So Anderson, I'm glad that we get to continue reporting on this stuff. I'm glad we get to do these Town Halls, because I think the truth has become increasingly hard to find, and yet, it matters more than ever.
COOPER: Yes, I mean, I can't believe he said that we've done everything we can. I mean, any -- you know, we're going to talk to Bill Gates about this tonight. But I mean, I just think it's so important to point out like, there's no reason we, this country with all the resources it has and all the incredible medical minds and the C.D.C., which used to be an incredibly worldwide respected organization, which is totally been kneecapped for the head of it to be saying that, like they've done everything.
I mean, our testing was a failure. They're testing from the beginning was a failure. And then you know, the President's whole attitude toward it, I mean, I guess he wants to keep his job and cover for the President, but it just seems -- I mean, we could be Iceland. We could be New Zealand. We could be Taiwan which has, you know, controlled it.
I mean, people aren't wearing masks you know because of COVID in Taiwan, you know certainly not like they should be here.
GUPTA: This is in no way shape or form the best we could have done, 17,000 people getting infected every day. That was the lowest number that we had and now it's going right back up, so we haven't done the best we can and there's no indication still, Anderson, which is frustrating that we're reversing course on that at all.
COOPER: I'm just stunned at scientists, you know, I guess who want to keep their jobs so much or think they're so important that they are saying things which are just not true. Because they know if they say the truth, you know, they're going to get kneecapped just like their whole organization has been kneecapped by this President.
We're going to have more on where the cases are rising the steepest. Let's check in with CNN's Jason Carroll here in New York. Jason, Texas was one of the earliest states to reopen. We just got some new case numbers from that state. What do they show?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first when it comes to reopening, Anderson, just within the past hour, Arizona, their Governor has come out and said that they're going to put a pause on reopening.
Texas Governor did the same thing, put a pause on reopening. This after a disturbing number came out today, 5,996 new COVID cases in a single day, that's more than they've ever seen in a single day. So that's part of the reason why these disturbing numbers, the downward trend there in Texas, you've seen the Governor put a pause on reopening efforts there.
But you've got a number of critics of the governor who say even putting a pause and reopening there, you still have restaurants that can operate going forward at 75 percent, bars that can continue to operate at 50 percent, and so you've got these critics who look at this and say look, if you really want to have a handle on what's happening there in Texas, you have to do more than pause. You have to roll back on reopening efforts, but there just doesn't seem to be a political will to do that at this point.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean, that's the thing, right? The status quo, things the way they are right now, the numbers are going way up. I mean, you can't keep the status quo, clearly.
I mean, in California, Jason as well, on the other hand, they were one of the earliest states to issue stay-at-home orders. But they're now seeing an alarming increase in hospitalizations as well. What do you hear is going on there?
CARROLL: Right, California, another one of those states, a populous state had opened. And now as a result of that, seeing disturbing numbers as well. Thirty two percent increase in the number of hospitalizations there, a 19 percent increase in the number of those admitted to ICU.
With those types of numbers, the Governor there is now looking and saying, wait a minute, going forward, if those numbers continue to trend in that direction, he will not only put a pause on efforts there, but he would also consider rolling back efforts there and that's what a lot of people are saying might be needed, eventually.
[20:10:00]
COOPER: What about mask wearing? Any progress on getting more, you know people to wear them or are more states going to require them?
CARROLL: You know, that's more complicated because look, you've got no national policy when it comes to this. You've got the President who is refusing to wear a mask, leaving it up to the states.
And so, basically, as a result, what you have is sort of a hodgepodge of policies depending upon where you are. You look at states like Arizona, Texas and Florida, where you're seeing surges in numbers there, and no sort of statewide national policy when it comes to mask wearing.
But if you're in the State of Florida, if you're in Miami Dade, or if you're in you know, Palm Beach, those cities say yes, you are required to wear a mask. But if you look at the country nationwide, just within the past 24 hours, states such as Nevada, North Carolina, South Carolina, they've all come out and said okay, we're now going to have statewide policies in terms of wearing a face covering or wearing a mask.
But aside from all of that, you've got to remember what health officials say. You can say it until you're blue in the face, when it comes to wearing a mask, it can help save lives. Period.
COOPER: Yes, Jason Carroll, thanks and to elaborate a bit on the travel ban being considered on Americans, I want to put up on the screen two trend lines. They show the seven day rolling average of new cases.
The one on the pink there is the European Union going all the way down. The United States is green, going up, both spiked up within weeks of the other end as you can see it at almost identical rate. We could have been on the path of the European countries now, but we're not.
The E.U. countries dropped down and have since stayed down, U.S. plateaued and is now on another steep rise. So let's check in with our chief international anchor, Christiane Amanpour in London.
I mean, it's incredible and it's devastating to look at that chart. I mean, what exactly is the European Union considering when it comes to travelers from the United States?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, Anderson and Sanjay, obviously that map tells the whole story because the European are getting ready to sort of lift lockdown. Here in England, for instance, it is due to happen on July 4th. It has already been happening in Europe.
And what they're trying to figure out is how to keep their graph going in the right direction and not doing what that green line is showing, which is flatlining and even going up.
It's very stubborn in the U.S. where you have this sharp upward tick and then the downward tick in Europe and elsewhere, but not in the United States.
So they are going to be looking at who will come into the European Union, especially for the tourist season, which they're getting ready for now.
It makes up a huge amount of their GDP. E.U. is the biggest tourist destination. So, they are looking to see who will meet certain criteria. So the United States could be barred still, Brazil, Russia, all the countries where A, you see the trend of infections rising and B, you don't see, you know, a good test and trace and isolate, a good surveillance mechanism.
So that's what's going on. But here's the interesting thing. These bans have been in place since March. The Europeans have banned most people, most countries from outside Europe, except for emergencies from coming in, and so has the United States. As you know, the U.S. has banned people from all over the world since
early March. And in fact, the E.U. has said, the U.S. ban is so much stricter that they don't expect the U.S. to make any fuss about this potential, you know, ban for the next several weeks, or whatever it is.
And indeed, they said, they haven't heard any complaints from the U.S. So it's a very interesting situation, and the E.U. says that these will be revisited as the cases and as the situation, as the science develops.
COOPER: You know, when President Trump ordered the ban on travelers coming from the E.U., back in March, the U.S. had just over a thousand cases, countries like Spain and Italy were surging.
Now, I mean, three months later, it's like we've done a complete 180. I mean, it's a reminder again, just of the perils of not having a plan in the United States.
AMANPOUR: Well, yes, and you know, not having a plan for instance here in the U.K. either. I mean, look, it is very, very clear that the countries that are doing the best on Mainland Europe, for instance, you mentioned Iceland, Germany, Finland, Denmark, Norway, not Sweden, by the way, who decided to be an outlier and has not done well at all and it is now being banned from going into neighboring countries like Denmark and Norway. They don't want Swedes there this year for the moment because of the upward tick in their infections, their deaths, et cetera.
So the Far East countries you mentioned as well did some really interesting containment and mitigation and all of these countries did specific things, either lockdown early, fast and you know, very, very, you know, significantly and/or very sophisticated, test, trace, isolate. They had that capacity and they used it.
So in all of the countries that are doing well, they either did one or the other or both.
[20:15:07]
GUPTA: Yes, they didn't have anything that we don't have, you know, just basic public health tools. Besides Sweden, are there any other struggling hotspots?
AMANPOUR: Well, the U.K., I mean, let's be serious. The U.K. has 43,000 deaths, and maybe more, and it is the highest toll in Europe. And again, it was because of the slowness. It was because of, you know, all sorts of reasons why they didn't, you know, accept European help on tests, on PPE and on things like that.
And they still, despite last week or so, promising quote, "a world beating test and trace operation." It just hasn't happened. So we have an issue with that over here in the U.K. and on July 4th, they plan to reopen.
There's some other European countries that are seeing spikes, but they're able to deal with them. And they expect that as sort of lockdown opens, is can you deal with them?
COOPER: Yes, Christiane Amanpour, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Let's turn now from someone who has made fighting disease around the world much of his life's work. Bill Gates through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is on the forefront of the battle against HIV, malaria and neglected tropical diseases.
And as we mentioned at the top, he predicted a pandemic much like this one five years ago and urged the world to start planning to prevent it. We didn't.
We last spoke with him as states were starting to reopen and the President was already declaring victory.
Bill, thanks so much for being with us. There are now more than 120,000 dead in America. I think the last time you were with us, it was around 60,000. The W.H.O. is warning the pandemic is accelerating.
Is there any reason beyond our poor response in this country to this virus to explain why we, with all our resources in this country, why we are the worst off country in the world right now with the most deaths and cases?
BILL GATES, CO-CHAIR, BILL AND MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION: Well, the United States has had a tough time. You know, we're not as tough on contact tracing or enforcing quarantine. And the compliance with mask wearing in the U.S. is far less than particularly in in the countries in Asia.
And so Europe has seen a much greater drop in cases than the United States. You know, the health experts, and others, like myself are saying, hey, let's not lose sight of this. Even though the weather is helping us a bit, May would have been much worse if the virus wasn't somewhat seasonal.
And so we know now that we're benefiting from the summer, and so force of infection will get worse in the fall. So, all the more reason not to get completely lax on our behavior.
You know, the only good news in this is that the death rate has gone down somewhat as we're learning how to treat people better, we're less overloaded, but the global picture and the U.S. picture are both more bleak than I would have expected.
GUPTA: Bill, thanks so much for coming back to speak with us. I thought we'd be having a different conversation frankly, end of June about this. Last time we spoke, I asked you about cognitive dissonance, you know, this idea that people are already taking victory laps, acting as if the pandemic is over.
How much do you think that's contributing? I mean, we know about the testing issues, we're going to talk about that, masks, physical distancing, but just the mindset overall, how much do you think that's contributing, this cognitive dissonance, and why? Why here? GATES: Well, it's almost as though people have a willingness to go
into lockdown once and, you know, for a certain period and that, you know, maybe that's not surprising, then it takes to get them to extend it past a certain thing or even to inconvenience themselves with masks, you know, requires maybe somebody they know to not only test positive, but maybe get very sick as well.
And so the range of behaviors in the U.S. right now, some people who are being very conservative in what they do, and some people who are basically ignoring the epidemic, it's, you know, huge. And, you know, we've worn out people's patience, and if they don't see it in some way they -- know, some people almost feel like it's a political thing, which is unfortunate.
COOPER: The White House continues to promote this idea that the reason we have the most cases is because we do the most and best testing. When I say we, I mean the United States, and just to be clear, the idea that testing is the reason why the United States has so many cases and the allegation is that testing is giving a false sense of the spread of the virus. I mean, is that factually correct?
GATES: No, it's completely false. It's fair to say that you can find more cases when you do more testing. But the U.S. is experiencing a rebound even once you factor out the increased testing and you know it's true, the local authorities over time, have gotten their act together on testing. No thanks to, you know, a broad clear message from the Federal government.
[20:20:17]
GATES: And that testing, there are foundations that have been funding certain innovations like the test at home swab and various ways of processing the samples. And so, in the fall, the testing capacity will continue to go up. That's good news.
But that's not the reason why we're seeing these case increases. You know, if you take New York or the New York area out, in fact, we're still very much in the in the thick of things, and better treatment is reducing the deaths.
But particularly as you get into October, November, this thing will be back in big numbers if we don't restrain our behavior more than it looks like we are right at the moment.
GUPTA: If you start to look at the actual numbers of tests, you know, what you'll hear is the United States is now conducting over 400,000 tests a day, which as you point out significantly better than we were, it was less than 20,000 a day, I think back in March.
But I think the question that comes up is, what is the right number, right? Because what you keep hearing is, you know, we've done 25 to 26 million tests in this country, it's far more than other places. So what's the problem here? Isn't that enough tests? How do you -- is there a right number?
GATES: Well, with testing, there is an approach that people talk about where you do mass testing, but a half a million a day. That means over a course of a week, you're testing one percent of the population. So that's still a very scarce resource.
You have to confine it to people who are either at very high risk or who have symptoms or had contacts with somebody who test positive.
If there's breakthroughs that let you get from one percent today, one percent a week, tomorrow, like 10 to 20 percent week, then you could use mass testing to find cases.
But, you know, no other country has relied on that. What other countries are doing is they're restraining their behavior, including using masks better than us. But they're also quarantining when they test positive and they're doing contact tracing.
And there are states that are very serious about contact tracing, it's been slow to get going. It hasn't worked as well here, as it has, say, in Germany or South Korea or Australia. It's probably when you have a large number of cases. It's very hard to get right.
You know, people have a sense of privacy, that are tough. The applications have not really -- the software hasn't added much to it. So because we're not -- our behavior and our contact tracing is not working well, we continue to have very large case spread. And it is embarrassing versus say Europe or other countries.
COOPER: You and Melinda have worked around the world on viruses and diseases, you've had incredible results in many different parts of the world, and you're dealing with vaccinations in places which is obviously, politically and socially a very, you know, controversial issue in a lot of places that you operate.
Have you ever in your vast experience, seen a situation where fighting a virus or disease has become so politicized where the act of wearing a mask now seems to be a political statement in some way?
GATES: I wouldn't have expected it here in the U.S. You know, the Governor of North Dakota, a friend of mine, you know, had to say, hey, please don't be mean to people who are wearing a mask, which, you know kind of blows the mind.
We have seen the equivalent in polio eradication, where there'll be rumors that the polio vaccine is to sterilize women and that you really shouldn't go near it.
And so, yes, vaccines are often subject to these rumors and those rumors are just so hard to get rid of even, you know, the thing from the past where they said it was associated with autism, which, you know, trial after trial showed that that's absolutely not the case. You just can't -- you know, the bad news travels faster than the truth in that case.
And so, you know, there's definitely some dissonance in the U.S., and we are going to have a lot of cases in the fall.
COOPER: The irony with this is -- I mean, it's mask wearing. It's not, you know, injecting something into somebody. It's something which we can all do as you said. It doesn't really cost anything and not only is it helpful to the person wearing the mask, but it's also helpful to everybody around.
[20:25:16]
COOPER: We've to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk more with Bill Gates.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: As we bring you tonight CNN Global Town Hall, the country has crossed another terrible milestone, 125,000 deaths from coronavirus. The death toll, according to data from Johns Hopkins University now stands at 125,796, nearly 126,000 lives lost in this country in just a few short months.
GUPTA: And as we talked about just before the break, the C.D.C. Director now says that 10 times as many people as previously thought, may have been infected with the coronavirus so far in this country.
As frightening as that is, it still means he says that more than 90 percent of the population is at risk.
Continuing our conversation now along broadly similar lines with Bill Gates.
So right now, there's been roughly five to seven percent of the United States population that's been infected with the virus. That's a rough number.
It's a lot of people. But I know you've heard a lot from people like Dr. Michael Osterholm who's the Director and Founder of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy in Minnesota and he said this interesting quote this past week.
He said, "The virus is not going to slow down transmission overall. It may come and go, but it's going to keep transmitting until we get at least 60 or 70 percent the population infected which might give immunity or if we get a vaccine."
So I am just wondering, do you agree with him that unless we get a vaccine that that percentage of Americans will likely get infected?
[20:30:21]
GATES: That's right. And even with the vaccine, there's two characteristics of a vaccine. One is whether it protects you individually from getting sick. The other is whether it stops you from being a transmitter of the disease. And it's possible the vaccine will be better at protecting you individually and not stop you from transmitting. We're trying to look at the various vaccines and see how they measure up on those two dimensions. But it's not guaranteed that the vaccine will be a perfect transmission blocker.
COOPER: We still don't know whether someone who's had the disease and recovered, enjoys immunity from it going forward. I know William Haseltine from Harvard, medical professor told CNN this week, I call this virus to get it and then your body forgets it. This is not a standard virus. He said that you're going to get herd immunity there is no evidence of herd immunity for coronaviruses. It does not exist every year the same for coronaviruses, come back to give us coals if you have one of those coronavirus is it can cause the exact same disease a year later. Do you think he's right?
GATES: The immune response to coronavirus is much greater than to the other related things that caused those common colds. And so we look at these antibody levels in over 80 percent of the patients they are very strong. And -- so we don't think you get immediately reinfected how long the protection is it a year, two years and are there some people particularly the asymptomatics who it's very short or that still pretty unsure, but the good news that came out in May was the antibody response is very strong. And that's what's made us hopeful that a vaccine will work or that monoclonal antibodies as a therapeutic will work. So he's been a little more negative than at least the recent evidence suggests at least one year of protection for almost everyone who gets symptoms from the disease.
COOPER: A big part of your fight against malaria was providing mosquito nets to people. I think the UN says that saved 7 million lives prevented, you know, billions of -- over a billion malaria cases. Do you see that fight? I mean, do you see the wearing of mass is sort of equivalent to distribution of, you know, nets for malaria?
GATES: It's similar because you're asking somebody to do something that's fairly inconvenient. And the benefit actually is to your village as well as to yourself, because those nets actually kill mosquitoes. So it helps everyone there. Yes, that, you know, keeping that compliance up, particularly when you succeed and people aren't seeing as much malaria, then it's hard. And so yes, all these health things like getting your children vaccinated are, you know, a little bit of inconvenience now to avoid something that's much later in time and the probability for an individual may not be all that high. So it's, it is a, you know, sort of social behavior. Do you care about other people type test?
COOPER: I want to play something that Dr. Fauci talked about during his testimony about a vaccine. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NIAID: And I believe it will be when and not if we get favorable candidates with good results, we will be able to make them available to the American public as well. I said to this committee months ago, within a year from when we started, which would put us at the end of this calendar year, and the beginning of 2021.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, you mentioned timeline a little bit, is that realistic and also, you talked about distribution, you know, having a vaccine that works. And then actually getting it distributed and figuring out, how it's distributed and paid for what sort of a timeline is that? GATES: The big problems are safety and efficacy. And phase three trials are very complex to do. And you may see, you know, safety signal that forces you to pry out in a broader set of people. You know, the two constructs both Fauci and I are very hopeful that they'll work, I talked to him regularly, more optimally in talks to some other people. So the --
[20:35:09]
COOPER: You've talked over the last year and a half weeks?
GATES: Yes. And, you know, he's fantastic the and his view of the chances and our viewer are very aligned, we're seeing the same data, we're sharing the same data. So I have a lot of hope for those two constructs. If the safety and efficacy is there, the factory piece is, is being done the cost of those two vaccines, the ability scale of production is very, very strong. And the logistics in the U.S. are not an issue at all we can get, get this thing out there. Now people will some people, you'll have a choice of whether you take the vaccine or not. So there's that final hurdle.
GUPTA: And what about the manufacturing side of things? Is Dr. Fauci also said, I think it's part of that same testimony that there's likely to be more than one winner. That's how he described it when it comes to developing a vaccine, maybe two different platforms but are you able to make enough vaccine is or not manufacturing capabilities to work on different types of vaccines at the same time?
GATES: Yes, so we know all these bio reactors that are available in the U.S. and Europe, India and China. And so our vaccine team, all these companies are doing this not as some big profit thing, but you know, they want to help out. And so saying, OK, if this vaccine works, then we'll have this facility in Germany, this facility in India, match up with Adam, we can get up to these very large numbers that's been worked through. And because we're putting money at risk, Europe is now putting some money at risk SEPI between the Florida SEPI, Europe ourselves we're building up at least for those two vaccines, a huge manufacturing capacity, that over a couple of years, you can make enough doses essentially for the entire world.
Some of the other constructs, including the RNA constructs, it's not going to be as easy to scale those up, the cost will be higher, that output per factory will be lower and requires a somewhat different factory. So for each of the top 20 or so, constructs, we understand, OK, where will it go and we put the money behind the ones right now that are earliest and do have somewhat promising data.
GUPTA: The issue that you've dealt with that you alluded to earlier is vaccine hesitancy, you know, for all sorts of different reasons. And I don't know if you've seen some of the recent data, but they say, you know, 30 percent of people may already have vaccine hesitancy when it comes to this particular vaccine. And, you know, it's one of these things where we're rushing in celebrating the speed at which things are going. And for scientists, that's exciting for people who are already a little hesitant about vaccines, it makes them even more nervous. So how do you balance that when talking about this vaccine or a vaccine?
GATES: Well, it's understandable that because of the urgency of this, the, you know, the amount of time that you'll be out, looking at it is just going to be less. And, you know, so even for scientists really understanding, OK, we're the trial populations, including all these different groups and, you know, what, how low does the age ring group age range go? You know, do we look, how do you feel about pregnant women in it? What about the elderly, it's a challenge to get that safety database to build up the confidence.
And, you know, so you could actually know about some profile and be putting the vaccine out there and then do further studies on other profiles. Anyway, the you know, I do think most people will take this, if it's a great vaccine, including the transmission blocking, everyone will benefit from the fact that 70 to 80 percent of the people will take the vaccine. You know, we should be able to get herd immunity if you get up to that level, and, you know, so it really could then really exponentially drop the numbers. But we need that for the entire world. And we're going to go back and, you know, have people taking vacations, international students, international sports events. So it'll take a while till we get the whole --get this thing finished off on a global basis.
[20:39:58]
COOPER: I'd read an op-ed in the New York Times it said that there's a risk in this country that the American public is just going to get used to, to all the dying that like gun violence, the prevailing view will become or mass shootings, school shootings, and this is this is just the price we pay. This just happens. It's just a thing that happens I think we can do about it except, you know, think thoughts and prayers. And that our way of life, you know, there really isn't much we can do about it. It's a pretty sad idea that suddenly we would accept this as it seems like society is willing to accept mass shootings. Do you think that's possible?
GATES: I hope not. It's pretty severe. And, you know, the, I hope the media continues to remind people of the tragedy that is represented here. You know, the, you know, right now, if you're in a nursing home, you know, they're, you know, because they're so worried, you're actually living almost in prison like conditions. Then it, this is an awful thing that we've done where, you know, old people are, are rational to be very worried about getting this and getting very, very second and possibly dying.
So, in a wow, if we become a nerd to this, that's not a very positive. I mean, this is a more than the kids who died in Vietnam, which was a great national tragedy. And, you know, fortunately we didn't ignore that, it was first and foremost about, you know, was that wise and how do we possibly end that kind of a death rate. This is greater, greater than that.
COOPER: I think it's so important what you just said about elderly populations living in nursing homes or in their homes, living in fear in prison like conditions. So, you know, it's easy for us to, you know, everyone wants to be able to go out to dinner and in New York, now you can sit in the outdoor, you know, at an outdoor table. And obviously businesses are hurting. That's a whole other piece of this, the economic side. But while some people in this population are, you know, enjoying themselves as much as they can, there's a lot of people who are hiding in their homes or imprisoned in nursing homes, unable to see their loved ones, and it's easy to forget about them.
GSTES: Yes, and it's almost ironic that the George Floyd tragedy came in this timeframe. And, you know, that's about the lower income families of black Americans, you know, facing challenges that other people need to know about and help get rid of. The diseases the same way that you know, and, you know, it's a lot of study about what factors drive that but. The inequity of this disease against the elderly, against minorities, against health workers. You know, I hope that keeps it as a focus that we bring all of this innovation power. You know, for our foundation, we're trying to get 1 percent of the relief money in the U.S. designated to help the entire world and even that, you know, so far, we've made no progress. But I'm still hopeful that the U.S. will show leadership, step up and help get these tools, particularly the vaccine out to everyone in the world.
COOPER: Yes, I mean, you saw this coming years ago. No one really listened to you then. You know --
GUPTA: I listened to you just --
COOPER: Well, a lot of people watch your TED Talk, but, but the changes weren't made. The tens of billions of dollars you talked about that would be needed to invest in, you know, fast tracking vaccines and monitoring zoonotic viruses and the like, it wasn't spent. If authorities are listening to you tonight. What is your advice or leaders are listening to what's your advice and is a vaccine the only avenue to this ending or what happens between now and then?
GATES: Well, testing numbers will keep going up and there's some breakthroughs there that could get us into, you know, much larger numbers, what I call mega testing. The therapeutics work, Dexamethasone, that's real, that's great. You know, some new ways of formulating Remdesivir and there's two other drugs that are in the assays show effectiveness. There, you know, we will get the death rate down. Monoclonal antibodies are about the only thing that could get it down dramatically if that works out. And we'll, we'll know by the fall. We do need to think about the world here. And, you know, that I'm still pretty disappointed. And without U.S leadership, it's been hard to pull together, you know, a response. And now the developing countries are bearing the brunt of the burden Brazil is, it's very tough there. India is starting to be very tough. So you know, innovation will help solve this.
[20:45:21]
My TED Talk 90 percent of the views are after the pandemic one started not before. And yet there are groups. You know, we funded SEPI, it wasn't, you know, even a 20th of what should have been done. I do think people won't forget this. I do think there's -- it's clear, it's possible to ramp up testing for a new pathogen very, very fast. In fact, you know, a number of countries did that extremely well, in this case, and the technology just keeps getting better there. So I'm not fatalistic about future pandemics, even though I'm disappointed we didn't get ready for this one. And even during the pandemic, the U.S. in particular hasn't had the leadership messages or the coordination that you would have expected.
COOPER: But basically, we're still not doing enough now on this pandemic.
GATES: Not even close. I mean, just you know, people died today.
COOPER: Bill Gates, really appreciate your time.
GUPTA: Thank you.
GATES: Thank you.
COOPER: Just ahead, new guidance from the CDC on who's more at risk for complications from the virus and it's something any expecting parent will want to know about.
Also, your questions including on what's the safest way to travel this vacation season that a more Global Town Hall continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're back and before we get to your questions, we just want to repeat our breaking news. As of tonight, nearly 126,000 Americans have now lost their lives to COVID-19.
One other late item at the top of the program we noted the White House Task Force absence from the public stage, well, we've just gotten word from the White House tomorrow there'll be holding their first public briefing in almost two months. But none of the White House itself it will take place the Department of Health and Human Services led by Vice President Pence.
[20:49:59]
GUPTA: And now you can ask your questions you can tweet them with the hashtag CNN Town Hall, also leave a comment on the CNN Facebook page.
Let's bring in Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency room physician and also a visiting professor at George Washington University as well as Baltimore's former Health Commissioner. Welcome Dr. Wen.
Before we get the audience questions, I just want to quickly ask you about some updated CDC guidance that came out about the those that are most at risk of severe complications from coronavirus. And you may have seen it's now includes pregnant women, amongst others. I think it gives some indication of just how dangerous this virus really is. But I want to get your take on that what the CDC just released today.
LEANA WEN, FMR BALTIMORE HEALTH COMMISSIONER: Sure, and Sanjay, you and I have been talking since the beginning that we knew the risk factors that make you more likely to have severe illness from COVID-19 are increasing age and chronic medical conditions. But what exactly are these medical conditions? And so that's what the CDC attempted to summarize today. And so those conditions that in that have the highest likelihood for severe illness would include things that we know, are severe kidney disease, lung disease, heart disease. Also, they've included type two diabetes, sickle cell disease and also importantly, obesity. Which is important because 40 percent of Americans are obese. So that increases that risk for a lot of people.
And then there are the conditions that might lead to increased risk and that's asthma, it's high blood pressure and also pregnancy as you mentioned. And so I think pregnant people should consider themselves to be medically vulnerable and everyone should evaluate their risks knowing that all of these risk factors are additive.
COOPER: I want to get to your question. Sanjay, Susan in Illinois sent in this video let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LAITAS, SENIOR PROGRAM MANAGER: Is there any type of mask you combine aware that prevents you from getting COVID-19? I wear my mask to protect others, but what's going to protect me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Yes, that's, that's a great point. I mean, so there's different types of masks, right. There's the sort of surgical type mask you've seen something like that though, the cloth masks as well. And as she pointed out, Linda that you wearing those really to decrease the transmission of the virus. What you're looking at there on the screen, though, is more of the N95. mask and these are types of masks that have been in short supply in hospitals, healthcare workers use them they have to be fitted to your face for to work properly but if and N95 is fitted properly that's the type of mask that typically will also protect the wearer significantly from getting the virus. The other ones may provide some protection as well but it said fitted N95.
That's thing is for everyone to be wearing masks out in public because as you said, you know, you're wearing it to protect others of everyone around you is doing it, that's how you get the best protection.
COOPER: Yes. Dr. Wen this next question come in -- came in via Twitter with their hashtag CNN Town Hall, is there at the bottom of your screen, it reads seems like the danger of infection via touching things infected folks have touched has declined. Is that true?
WEN: What the CDC says that the most likely way you're going to get COVID-19 is through that person to person contact. If you're around somebody who is coughing, sneezing, talking, you may not even realize that they have coronavirus, but there is still a risk of getting COVID from surfaces, from these high touch surfaces. And so there really are not that many tools for us to be using to prevent from getting COVID. And those are wearing a mask as Sanjay was just saying, keeping the physical distance and washing our hands very well.
COOPER: Sanjay, Patti in California send us this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATTI BANGS, PROGRAM SPECIALIST: If you must travel across the country, is it safer to take a four hour plane flight heating all necessary precautions? Or is it safer to get a sleeping car on a train?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Yes, that's a good question. And it depends a little bit on the circumstances. If the airport, the airplane is going to be very crowded, the terminal is crowded, that's going to be, you know, a higher risk situation. On the train car if you are going to be in an area where you can actually be isolated, be away from people. It's all about really that contact and the best way that you can reduce it should also think about, you know, where are you going is that place that you're going potentially going to be a place where the virus is circulating. So it's a tough call in these situations but think about the environment overall.
COOPER: Sanjay. I know we're getting close to fourth July, a lot of people would like to be traveling or maybe are going to be traveling somehow. I don't know how you found the time to do this, but I know you shot a video, show us how to take a road trip in the area of COVID. So let's take a look. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: So you want to take a road trip? Well, you're going to plan more this year than in your staff, that's for sure. First decision point drive versus fly. According to my friend Dr. Preeti Malani, if you need to stay in a hotel more than a night, you're probably going to want to fly instead of drive. But keep in mind, driving does offer you a lot of flexibility and a lot of control. You got control over your own bags, other people didn't have to touch that stuff. You got control over the people you're coming in contact with. You can take your own food and water as well. That'll cut down on the number of stops.
[20:55:08]
One thing you'll also want to look at is where are you going? There's some states like Maine and New Mexico, for example, that had these quarantine orders in place. So when you arrived there, you got to be in quarantine for 14 days. So you got to take that into account. Also, you know, I think most people now when they travel, they travel some sort of go bag. This is ours, you got hand wipes in here, you got masks, you got gloves, you got some hand sanitizer, that's for the stops that you'll inevitably have to make.
Keep in mind that it's people in more than (ph) porcelain that's going to transmit this virus, there's still no reason not to take certain precautions. As far as who you're traveling with. If you're traveling with family members, predominantly, you probably don't need to wear masks. If there are other people in the car, you may need to wear masks. Also as much as possible, even though it's hot outside. Try and keep the windows open about three inches. The windows are closed, you accumulate about 10 times as much virus inside the cabin of the car.
Now finally, what about pets? It's OK to bring pets along. Come here buddy, come here, come here. Actually having pet sitters or house sitters in the car (INAUDIBLE), I can introduce another variable into the whole mix, and you want to try and reduce your risk as much as possible. Good luck. Stay safe. Have a great summer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Thanks, girl dad. I like the T-shirt.
GUPTA: (INAUDIBLE) it's say boy's dad.
COOPER: That's great.
GUPTA: Yes, no. And you know I think it's got to be a case by case basis here a little bit. But I do think that idea that if you're going to have to spend more than one night on the road, if you're driving, it may be better in that case to fly. You're just trying to cut down on your exposures.
COOPER: Sanjay, thank you so much, Dr. Leana Wen, thank you so much, we really appreciate it. I also want to thank Bill Gates for sharing his time with us again, it's always great to have him, so rational and just so knowledgeable.
Also, thanks to those of you who wrote in with your questions. To everyone who joins us tonight, you didn't get your question answered tonight, the conversation continues at cnn.com/coronavirusanswers.
The news continues right now after a quick break with Chris.
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